Showmanship Moore's top commodity in 'Capitalism'
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51 Comments
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0
Badsey
If I wasn't being fleeced by the Federal Reserve (a private entity), strong-armed by The I.R.S. (based out of Puerto Rico and a WWI hold-out tax scam) -I could probably afford to go to this movie before they outsource my job.
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TheQuestion
Moore's just an angry, overweight, insignificant man who makes money by telling you that there is no way that an angry, overweight, insignificant person like you could possibly get ahead in life.
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Sarge
Hypocrisy in the extreme - Moore making a movie about the evils of capitalism while making a profit from capitalism.
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sf2k
this is a mislabelled movie title,
Socialism is when you have the gov't bail you out with public money, and wall street got that. So technically they're no longer capitalistic anyway. Democracy is about having a say in a group method of solving problems. Americans somehow got fleeced with their own version of an idea sent from France. France is sitting pretty and America is America.
This ends up confusing Democracy and Capitalism but it can be small c capitalism with some socialist elements. Thus the excesses are restrained but the troughs are prevented.
Moore is not against Capitalism, he makes a lot of money, he's against those who make so much off of those who make so little. That is the joke sure, but you've missed the point; Moore didn't foreclose on people or kick them to the street in order to get a bonus.
0
lunchmeat
Moore has emphatically made the claim repeatedly over the years: "I don't own a single share of stock!"
He's right. He doesn't own a single share. He owns tens of thousands of shares – including nearly 2,000 shares of Boeing, nearly 1,000 of Sonoco, more than 4,000 of Best Foods, more than 3,000 of Eli Lilly, more than 8,000 of Bank One and more than 2,000 of Halliburton, the company most vilified by Moore in "Fahrenheit 9/11."
But Moore's loophole may be that the stock is actually owned by his non-profit foundation – not him personally. However, Moore signed the Schedule D for its tax return personally and controls the activity of the corporation.
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lunchmeat
No, that would be Bill Clinton, Barney Frank, and Chris Dodd who caused that.
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smithinjapan
Funny to watch the critics here -- all the same people who are just angry at Moore for revealing so much of the truth behind the bush cabal and the (non) 'reasons' for invading Iraq, etc. It doesn't matter what kind of movie Moore makes, the bushies will come on here and complain about it, and about him.
I'm looking forward to seeing it.
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cow76
Owning shares in an unethical company doesn't mean you support their activities. What if there was one company so evil that only one person was immoral enough to own those shares? I personally have shares in mining companies that are exploiting Aborigines and their land in Australia. I don't support those activities and would gladly attend a protest against that company (ERA).
I'm looking forward to seeing the film.
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4thEstateDotCom
Like most - scratch that - all leftists, Moore is only up for half an argument or a debate.
Reuters reported on the 19th that at a conference about his new film Moore admitted "he was not in favor of embracing communism as an economic system, and hinted he may have overstated his argument to make a point with the audience."
Imagine that. He doesn't know what he believes, but for twenty bucks you can help comfort poor fat millionaire Mikey and help him sort out his bad faith.
Old PT Barnum was right when he said that a credulous person who will grow up to be a lefty is born every 60 seconds or so; or however the saying goes.
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lunchmeat
Yes, and one also finds that corporations tend to contribute to both Democrat and Republican parties.
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Mocheake
Well, capitalism is a failure if looked at from the standpoint of every single individual in the world and the Christian bible. We all buy into it because we are taught to believe it is the best system. It's the best system for the richest 5% in the world and people who live in rich countries. Fact is billions are living on less than a dollar a day due in big part to the G20 nations but a lot of us couldn't care less about anyone outside of our family and close friends.
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LFRAgain
Puh-leeze, 4thEstateDotCom. In the few short weeks since you popped up here at JT, you have managed to completely master the art of hit-and-run posting, offering nary a defense to your most ridiculous posts.
For example, today's paltry contribution where you equate one thing (Moore stating he wasn't in favor of communism) with another ("He doesn't know what he believes."). How, dare I ask, are the two even remotely related, outside of some wholly contrived warping of reality?
Oh, wait. I forgot. You're the hit-and-run guy. No defense forthcoming, as usual.
0
Cicada
Regardless of Moore's personal philosophy, the main point is how much reality does his documentary represent? The author comes up with nothing to dispute the specific observations of Moore. Very poor writing and analysis, and obvious bias.
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4thEstateDotCom
So tell me LFRAgain, if I have misrepresented him what does Mr Moore believe?
After supposedly diagnosing the ills of a system that has created the highest standard of living ever known on this earth what does the movie 'Capitalism' suggest we replace it with?
0
LFRAgain
4thEstateDotCom,
Cute attempt to flip the question on to me, but no, sir. It’s your poop sandwich. You take the bite. You seem to be convinced that Moore doesn’t know what he believes, but you base that on nothing other than him ironically stating that he doesn't believe communism is necessarily the answer.
With 15 works he's written and/or produced under his belt, most of them antithetical to everything you claim to believe in your 15-second sound bite posts, it seems pretty clear that Moore has a pretty good inkling of what he believes.
So how do you go from one to the other? Please, walk me through what will undoubtedly be the entertaining, if not baffling, logic that lead you to that conclusion.
I have no idea. I haven't seen the movie yet. And you know what? Neither have you. Which makes your comments that much more empty and pointless. Go see the movie and then come back and tell us how much it sucked.
But I did find the article you borrowed your “opinion” from. Something that struck me while reading your "opinion" was that Moore is actually making one of your arguments for you -- assuming, of course, you really are a true fiscal Conservative -- He’s demanding that banks that ate $700 billion in federal handouts give it all back. I would think you’d be elated about this. After all, isn’t that the cornerstone of Conservative capitalist ideology? Keep the government out of it? Let businesses that don’t perform fail under the rule of market forces? You should be cheering Moore on.
But then again, when every single one of your posts contains at least one “all lefties are evil” slight, as if by contractual obligation, I suppose your intellectual dishonesty and laziness don’t allow much room for seeing past blog-fed ideological zeal.
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4thEstateDotCom
LFRA - I judge him by his actions. Perhaps what I should have said is that he doesn't believe what he preaches. He has a huge house in a very exclusive part of Michigan. He sends his kids to private schools. His stock portfolio included Halliburton, Boeing and defense stocks. The title of this article is more or less right on: Showmanship Moore's top commodity in 'Capitalism'
Funny, my supposed abhorrence of all things leftist not withstanding, my "blog-fed ideological zeal" compels here to quote the views of uberlib dahling Arianna Huffington on Moore's latest offering:
Again, even without having seen the movie, I say that he comes with half an argument, and does so deliberately.
0
lunchmeat
Some people skrimp and save, vacation in Hawaii and eat at McDonalds while they're there. People do what they do and survive using their wits and... capitalism.
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bamboohat
Moore is a whiny liberal who loves to make money complaining about the system. So what. I haven't seen any of his movies, and I certainly won't see this one. I've seen him on a few shows, and he breaks down into illogical personal attacks whenever somebody presents a halfway decent argument against any of his positions. I don't particularly his views, opinions, or his films, but I respect his capitalism skills that he uses over and over to make tons of cash, selling his whiny liberal views to other whiny liberals.
He is the epitome of a successful capitalist. Find a market, develop a product for that specific market, and get rich.
0
MeanRingo
If anyone wants to watch a cleverly made short film looking at the triumphs of American capitalism, check out The Story of Stuff. Google it and enjoy!
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lunchmeat
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,555065,00.html
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cow76
Thanks but no thanks.
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Wolfpack
Moore is a con-artist that espouses Socialism and whom got his start in the entertainment industry while the Soviet Union was still around. He should know better than to continue pushing such a discredited ideology.
This sentence pretty much sums up Moore and his use of manipulation to make his ideological points. Combine manipulation with Leftist populism and you get a propaganda film worthy of an award from Lenin. The man makes a ton of money selling his product via the capitalist system. You have to give the guy credit, he has figured out a way to rail against Capitalism while using it to make a mint.
0
Badsey
USA went Socialist in 1913 when the Federal Reserve was created for/from private bankers. As a good Socialist you need to act like a slave (in debt) while the Federal Reserve prints more paper and calls it "money,currency" etc and changes you interest and inflation for nothing (it's worthless paper, or just a ledger note).
In the mean time The Fed and it's owners buy up the hard assets (land,banks,, resources etc) while they endebt you ever more and even tax you more. -You even paid them 1T to do it +they printed another 9T min.
In true capitalism the wage earner kept his money (no income tax), while the business owner payed taxes on profit. No you have an inverse system where business pays very little of the total taxes. But since most businesses are controlled by the few -why should the "entitled" pay taxes.
0
WhiteHawk
I preferred the movie debunking it on Glenn Beck's website.
If capitalism is so wrong, why does Moore expect people to pay to see his movie? Shouldn't it be provided by the government (like that Story of Stuff propaganda being shown in American public schools)? Or maybe some "rich" person (hmmmm, like Moore) is supposed to pay for your tickets?
Capitalism works. It's the basis for any economic system that needs to grow to meet the needs of a growing population. You can bleed it here and there for this vote-buying redistribution scheme or that vote-buying entitlement program, but it's still the foundation of any growing socio-economic system.
And capitalism is not evil. Neither are guns, cars, or votes. Any of them can be used for evil, but they are not evil by themselves. It comes down to the user. But that's personal responsibility, which seems to set off alarms on the Left. Fine, attack capitalism. Then try to grow your own food in your 3-mat apartment.
As always. Substance and accuracy? Not so much.
0
JeffLee
Thank god for "manipulation"!!!
If it weren't for Moore, we would never had seen George Bush sit and do nothing for 7 minutes while the country was under attack. We never would have found out that the FBI gave special permission for a group of compatriots of the 9/11 terrorists to fly out of the U.S. on their private jet while all other planes (including the president's) were grounded. The list goes on and on.
I'm glad we have someone like Moore to counter the more egregrious manipulation of FOX, CNN, etc., which refuse to air reports deemed harmful to the state.
0
Klein2
Thanks Jeff. I agree exactly.
Go ahead and vilify Moore, everyone, but for thirty years, he has put the questions right out in front of you. A clown? Sure, why not? Who else is going to tell you the truth? Roger and me has scenes of rabbit butchery. Bowling for Columbine has freaky scenes of wigged out gun nuts. Sicko shows real live doctors in real live Cuba.
As far as I know, he plows money from his movies back into his movies and chides Dems at least as often as Reps for not fighting for the people. He is providing a valuable public service in spite of himself. American capitalism has shown itself to be a destructive influence, at least in some ways, and someone should tell the tale.
Over the last two decades, he has made at least five major motion pictures expressing his views about what he thinks is wrong with American society. He is a fat, ugly, generally disagreeable person. What is your excuse?
0
yabits
Moore's films make money; his critics vilify him for it. If his films weren't successful, his critics would be sure to play that up too.
As for paying money to see them, it is pretty evident that even socialist countries have ticket offices. According to Moore himself, who gave an interview last night, the remedy for capitalism is good old American democracy.
We believe in strong checks and balances in our political system. I think that Moore would strongly agree that the same are needed in the economic arena as well, otherwise oligarchy and plutocracy are the results.
If capitalism was such a great system, it would be adopted by families as the way to do things within the family unit. Abandoning kids and the elderly (downsizing), or otherwise abusing them via the "buyer beware" approach is a way to create sick families and sick societies.
Capitalism can be a powerful force for good, but only when operated within a construct that transcends it. As when kids learn how to set up a lemonade stand, or do things to earn an allowance.
0
LFRAgain
yabits,
Well said, but careful here. You're using big words (oligarchy and plutocracy) that might befuddle and confuse the Blog Generation.
Keep in mind that we're debating with a bunch whose reasoning capacity only marginally exceeds, "Meat GOOD! Fire BAD!"
Push too hard, and their heads might implode.
0
4thEstateDotCom
I personally know hundreds of Canadians who moved to Cuba after watching Sicko.
Moore is a genius of sorts.
0
4thEstateDotCom
Why are leftists so excitable and prone to exaggeration?
0
Klein2
4th estate "personally knows hundreds of Canadians who moved to Cuba."
Wow. I would think it would be hard to "personally know" hundreds of Canadians, but that is just me. To know them before they moved to Cuba would be nearly impossible. To know them after, I would imagine for someone not working in an embassy, that would be pretty difficult. I guess if that were one's life accomplishment, well ok, but 4th estate seems to be so busy with all kinds of other activities that I am skeptical.
Somebody, I would say, is prone to exaggeration.
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4thEstateDotCom
Moore must thrilled that GM is now owned by the government.
0
Sarge
I'll bet Wall Street 2 makes a lot more money than MM's Capitalism: A Love Story.
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yabits
Reading the words "excitable and prone to exaggeration" is rather funny coming from the side that believes that the enactment of modest controls on guns will lead to a communist dictatorship, and that a single-payer health care system means the total abandonment of capitalism for socialism. One sees the risk, in the hyperbolic and over-inflated rhetoric of the right wing, of even starting wars over nothing.
On the other hand, most people can agree how a failure to provide checks and balances on power in the political arena is antithetical to democracy, and will, if we believe at all that power corrupts, lead to disastrous consequences. The severe imbalance of wealth distribution also indicates a lack of democracy.
As Klein2 put it, Moore has been putting the questions out there. I may not like a lot of his style as a film-maker. I find a lot of his stuff to be tacky, as in taking that picture of the little girl (in Bowling for Columbine) to Charlton Heston's home, or hectoring Dick Clark about one of the restaurants in a franchise that carries his name. Moore genuinely seems at a loss when a corporation does something decent, as when K-Mart decided to get all ammunition out of its stores. But it is easy to look past those things when you realize the risk in putting the big questions out there for people to think about.
And that is the greatest threat he represents to a lot of his conservative critics -- the ones who like to remind people that America is not a democracy. (As though if the people of the United States wanted more democracy they could not have it based on that declaration.)
0
yabits
Nothing wrong with that, if they won't wake up.
I like to make the challenge that, if people would genuinely resolve to thoroughly research both sides of an issue well enough to argue it from the opposing side, they would find themselves on the right wing of very few of them. The problem with a lot of right-wingers on these boards is that they can't even put together a convincing argument from the conservative side.
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4thEstateDotCom
Care to defend such a completely absurd statement?
How, exactly, does 'income inequality' or the existence of great wealth amid relative poverty somehow prove or even indicate that democracy has failed when government, in instituting measures like affirmative action or 'health care for all' - which leftists naively believe will ameliorate 'inequality' - relies ultimately on force or an implied threat of the same to carry out such misguided programs?
You guys just never get it...
0
4thEstateDotCom
It's a constitutional republic.
0
Klein2
Ha. Yabits and I even agree on the scenes of the movies that made us wince. It is part of the theater. It is all good. I feel a little sorry for Dick Clark, George Bush, and Charlton Heston, and then think... naaaaah!.. they still had it coming. It is not as though Mr. Moore is asking questions that people SHOULD NOT BE asking. He is polite enough to get the job done, but not one bit more polite. And he is ALWAYS respectful of common people, as Studs Terkel was. That is to be admired.
In fact, in a constitutional republic, M. Moore is even more necessary than in a democracy. These people who get voted in to make decisions on behalf of the people must be questioned and held accountable. Five minutes with M. Moore is intolerable to them? Puh leeze. And if capitalism will come tumbling down because Mr. Moore goes jousting with it, then it never had a purpose in the first place, right?
Why is Borat funny and Michael Moore is often disturbing? It is because we know that Borat is just doing it for fun and outrage. Michael Moore is either sincere or fakes it so well that we can't tell, but more than that, he chooses the material carefully enough to make the process of education interesting. He obfuscates things about twice as much as liberals believe, but about a quarter as much as conservatives believe. Also, as far as I can tell, he is a loose cannon, blasting Hillary in Sicko. He gets Matt Stone and M. Manson to talk about Columbine. There are so many stories to tell that finding new ones is a valuable service he provides.
Finally, Moore was opposed to the Bush bailout of GM. It rewarded management for their absurdly inept performance that he portrayed in Roger and Me decades ago. He has been right about a lot of things. He is America's Cassandra.
0
sf2k
no doubt I'll see this and enjoy it. When someone is free to complain, AND makes millions doing it, that is America. America used to fight the rich, the train barons, imperial oil but no more. The fat and lazy brains out there must support their corporations now. Whatever.
He has a right to make his movies and you have the right to pay for it or not. If most Americans bothered to even vote, they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with
0
zurcronium
Moore was right about GM falling to the accountants with Smith, right about bush being a total failure in every respect leading to the collapse of American style capitalism, right about the American health industry being a con game rigged to profit from the illness of working people. And on and on.
So no doubt this movie will expose the lies that the wingers tell themselves about the failed free enterprise storytale and how that story is used to extract money from the poor and middleclass to make the rich richer.
Of course Moore is right, capitalism is the enemy of democracy. Read Kevin Phillips book on this topic (Wealth and Democracy) that came out years ago. 500 pages proving how money has fought democracy from day one in the USA. Google has it online for those that want to learn the truth-not for Fox news addicts as it will just confuse them.
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4thEstateDotCom
I have to ask - are you in Japan? If you actually believe that capitalism is the enemy of democracy do you imagine yourself, with your broken Japanese, converting the natives to your misguided way of thinking?
0
LFRAgain
4thEstateDotCom,
Misguided? Japan has an extensive social welfare system, complete with socialized medicine, and intricate government controls (interference) at all levels of the economy to regulate and maintain Japanese "capitalism." Please see yesterday's news about the government bailout of JAL.
You couldn't have picked a worse example to drive home your pointless baiting, complete with the unnecessary insult of another poster's Japanese ability, as if that had anything to do with anything.
0
4thEstateDotCom
"capitalism is the enemy of democracy."
I chuckle every time I read that.
0
Sarge
"capitalism is the enemy of democracy"
Nyuk nyuk nyuk nyuk!
0
cow76
I personally know hundreds of Canadians who moved to Cuba after watching Sicko. And the Prime Minister's wife went to Venus for a night. It's a magical, mystical world.
0
zurcronium
Hey guys, being wrong all the time makes one giddy. If you both tripped over the truth by accident you would not be any wiser unfortunately. If you do have the courage to learn google the book I mentioned above. But you will not do that as being ignorant and silly is just so much easier. Lets you predict a LDP landslide a few weeks ago or that WMD are still in Iraq. Nice. Try.
0
WilliB
Michael Moore, the multi-millionaire, thinks that capitalism has done nothing for him.
I´d advise him to make his next movie in North Korea.
0
xrc
Is he a multi-millionaire? anyway, "Capitalism" can have many meanings, not just the economic textbook one. Yes, the Japanese are very capitalistic but they share...my students pitched in this Feb. when my Mom passed away so I could get back to America. They give me gifts, uni from Hokkaido, Cheese from France/Britain, etc. when I was back in America in Feb. all I heard was "Oh, I make $200,000 annually but I can't live on that"! So many examples I can't even write them. I've never seen a country (my own) go off in such a spruge of spending on worthless things. This to me is "Capitalism". The sports and entertainment people change teams get millions and the public loves them. Well, MM has a ??? year old car and is not driving around in a Ferrari or Lexus like the Wall Streeters. It can go on & on...
0
yabits
The film opened yesterday in a theater near my home so I went and saw it. It is really very well done. I was impressed at how the religious leaders in the communities Moore went to all expounded on the evils of capitalism. In fact, Moore lets other people do most of the telling of the story in this film.
Moore showed two good examples of successful businesses operating in the U.S. using the principles of workplace democracy. What a breath of fresh air those places seemed, judging by the comments of the employees/associates.
Moore appears to channel his "wealth" into telling the stories that he hopes will help make the United States a nation we all can be proud of again. I am all for him for that. The things he's bringing front and center need to be told.
0
seijichuudo9sha
What is wrong with America? I read today that the movie has tanked in its first weekend.Doesnt that mean it wont play in theaters in Japan?
Moderator: It opens in Japan in January.
0
yabits
It is funny to see the loony right-wingers claiming that Moore's film has "tanked." Especially since the film is in limited release and has nonetheless gotten the numbers which indicate that it is the #1 or #2 top-grossing movie at the theater complexes in which it is showing. It's still Sunday morning and yet over 5 million Americans have seen the film, according to box office reports.
The folks here who criticize Moore and who prostrate themselves in defense of the corporate-political masters who are screwing them blind are indeed given some time in the film. Any attempt by ordinary people to organize themselves to build a better, "more perfect union" is seen as a threat to be reckoned with. So much do they fear freedom and democracy.
That's why a lot of those folks must have been seeing a movie that they can better relate to: Zombieland.
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