Japanese automakers object to U.S. 'cash-for-clunkers' program

Thursday 13th August, 11:59 AM JST

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roomtemperature at 01:03 AM JST - 15th August

"but only a change of attitude and a little humility will save it."

Not only the car industry.....some posters from there as well.
sfjp330 at 02:36 AM JST - 15th August

Even if the American autos were sold at the same price in Japan as they are in the US, it would not make a differnce, Japanese consumers simply do not want them.

societymike:

Regardless of the quality, the facts are that in Tokyo, U.S. cars cost for twice the cost as in the states in the '90's. Point is it doesn't matter if they want it or not. I'm asking why it cost twice as much and give me a explanation. Nobody has the answer other than bash the big three.
sfjp330 at 03:35 AM JST - 15th August

In 1995, average GM cars were over $50,000 in Japan.......New York Times 2/20/95. Regardless of the quality, give me a explantion to above.
Farmboy at 09:19 AM JST - 15th August

In 1995, average GM cars were over $50,000 in Japan.......New York Times 2/20/95

Do you have a link?

Anyway, if you're going to take a small number of US cars into a foreign market, you have to add shipping costs, costs to adapt to the regulations of the country, and costs to run the vehicle through whatever intermediary dealers (Japan has a lot) along the way. As a consumer, you'd also have to think about parts for maintenance that are not readily available in the foreign country. The only people who would do this are rich people who just liked a big, foreign cars, so your target market wouldn't care that much about price.
Klein2 at 04:34 PM JST - 15th August

sfjp. I am yawning. I know the things you posted. I lived through them. During the yen peak in the mid 90s, Toyota soldiered on and continued its development of hybrids. Did Detroit use that high-yen hiatus to accomplish something? No? It just shows even more what dullards the denizens of Detroit really are. Maximize profits. And now they need bailouts. Ford was so flush with cash three years ago that they did not know what to do with it. Would producing a good hybrid car have made sense? Maybe? Go ahead and blame consumers and shareholders sfjp. Any businessman will tell you that if you are blaming customers and your business owner, you should have quit long ago. If management cannot manage, they fail. Waggoner and his replacement have PhD, MBA, and all manner of degrees. I think his replacement has a JD. And look at them. What a disgrace.

Toyota and anyone else can charge whatever the market will bear if they are not dumping. Free trade does not mean uniform pricing.

I am sad that US manufacturers cannot put on a better show. It is a darned shame that Detroit failed the US public while all Honda and Toyota and others have done is produced great cars 24/7 for decades. It would be so convenient to blame it on unfair trade practices, but Detroit has failed every time it uses that old saw too.

By the way, my apparent hubris on this point is actually bitterness. In the 90s I swore up and down to any Japanese person listening that US automobiles were of good quality and that there must be some "structural problem" to explain the auto trade imbalance between the US and Japan. I bought American cars until it became very impractical to do so. I was wrong wrong wrong. Detroit has used trade sanctions, subsidies, and any strategic device it can to hide the fact that they are boobs and incompetents. What else could explain the failure of companies with so many advantages, along with experience, and access to US resources? They had the best and brightest workers, domestic markets, the best educations, the good will of a nation of 300 million. I really could go on and on. I supported them, then I believed them, then I had faith in them, then I hoped for them. Now I can't even stand to look at them because it is obvious that they just don't care about what they are doing.

Your main point is right spot on sfjp. Maximizing profits is what they are all about. From A to Z that is what they are doing. Making widgets. The Japanese are making automobiles for real people and that fact is also plain as day.
dontpanic at 05:29 PM JST - 15th August

sfjp330 - "In 1995, average GM cars were over $50,000 in Japan.......New York Times 2/20/95. Regardless of the quality, give me a explantion to above"

I have in country experience during the time mentioned, let me tell you how. I would suggest your information, if correct, indicates that GM were shipping fully loaded cars (at the time Japanese customers were not buying poverty spec cars) to their main importer and distributor, Yanase. US product for the most part was shipped in very low volume and would likely have through single vehicle type approval (the same as for kit cars and self buids), this is an expensive process. Add to that shipping and the extensive preparation required to make the cars at least saleable in country bumps the price up. Add then Yanase's margin, at the time dealers were looking for 15-20% and you have an expensive but still relatively poor quality car.

Other GM product, such as that from Europe, could generate volume and justify standard type approval.

Chrysler's Neon and the GM Saturn at the time went through standard type approval and were priced on a par with local product, but still failed miserably. See my previous post for the reasons why, but suffice to say the US makers attitude hasnt changed in the intervening years.
hworta269 at 09:42 PM JST - 15th August

Cash for clunkers = American wealth distribution of tax money and thats about it.
cabdriver at 05:21 PM JST - 16th August

I have mixed emotions, Japanese CEOs have a lot more credibility than the leaders in Washington, but the fair trade arguement also has merit. I dont have a problem with waiting for production to ramp up, as I understand it 3 of the top 5 cars in the "CARS" prgram are Japanese nameplates, so I'm not sure what the complaint is. If I had the affordability last I looked in Erie,Pa. theres a prius in stock if I want it. Call me an old fashioned American, but if it was up to me there'd be a 300C in front of the house. Sorry, but at 6'2 I dont want to spend my last years driving something smaller than a soap box derby car. & I refuse to drive a car without a real grille & bumpers.
Klein2 at 01:48 AM JST - 18th August

Dontpanic... yeah... that sounds about right. The big three did not establish sales networks. Not sure that their aftercare was good. I am pretty sure that the pricing differential applies to all foreign cars in Japan. Yanase. Sure don't want their hand in my pocket.

To tell the absolute truth, the initial purchase price of American cars does not deter me at all. The inspection costs, the gas mileage, and my experience with American cars deter me. It is not hyperbole. Definitely, if someone gave me a fully loaded American produced automobile for FREE, I would accept it, then sell it or trade down for a Japanese vehicle. I just never want to hassle with a car for the rest of my life.

Cabdriver, you are shorter than I am, by the way, and might have more years ahead of you than I have left. Fair trade has merit. Sure. What's fair? I say it is the plucky 60 year old newcomer that makes a great product and cares about customers and the environment and sticking it to OPEC. Others say that lazy, slovenly, multimillionaires with short memories deserve my sympathy for being so fair in producing SUVs and other shoddy products, then asking for government help.... again. Now Detroit wants to change the rule for CASH FOR CLUNKERS to allow buyers to get Detroit-produced cars next year rather than buy Japanese cars that are already on the lot. Never mind that Toyota and Honda took a risk to ship their cars NOW that Ford and GM did not take, let's just be "fair", and reward everyone equally.

And what is an old fashioned American? Are you really so old fashioned? I think it is still true that the US is the world's number 1 oil producer. Do you know why the US is not in OPEC? The reason is that it is not a major oil EXPORTING country. Part of what turned the US into a net oil importer, reliant on Mideast oil, is fashion: the real grille and bumpers and high speed limits and roomy comfort that so many associate with "luxury" have led to the nightmare of SUVs, stretching to horizon, each with six power seats and two benches, 10 cup holders, and a single human inside. Fashion. I am willing to give up that Trans Am Hummer Americana for a chance to free my people from the whims of OPEC ministers from Venezuela and Iran. Truly, "old fashioned" Detroit catered to the "fashion" of wasting fossil fuels and the tying of US foreign policy to OPEC. Old fashioned Americans are the puppets of nice people from Iran, Nigeria, and Venezuela. How must that feel? I cannot get that image out of my head. Most Americans know it, but do not want to think about it. Why? They gave up. Surrendered. America surrendered in the early 80s when oil prices fell and vehicle sizes went right back to where they were in 1973. I know a country that never stopped fighting the good fight, though.

Japan has pointed the way to self reliance. By driving slowly and safely, smaller cars can give superior performance in all respects. They show that. Higher fuel taxes. Better inspection systems and technologies. Properly inflating their tires. Choosing horses for courses instead of driving a Hummer during their daily commute. Those are useful practices full of self-control, not prideful incontinence. Consequently, "Fashion" in Japan is a very different thing, and it does not put OPEC's interests ahead of its own. Being old-fashioned in Japan is valuing hard work, constant improvement and innovation, good craftsmanship, plain dealing, customer good will, and public service.

I guess the contrast to me is huge. No amount of shiny chrome will distract me from what a vehicle should be: Utilitarian. Reliable. Simply excellent. If I can choose that, support the good guys, and stick it to OPEC every time I turn a key, then so much the better.
sfjp330 at 03:31 AM JST - 18th August

Farmboy: Here is a link:

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/20/news/20iht-autocon.html?scp=4&sq=Japan%20news,%20February%2020,%201995&st=cse
sfjp330 at 03:50 AM JST - 18th August

then asking for government help.... again. Now Detroit wants to change the rule for CASH FOR CLUNKERS to allow buyers to get Detroit-produced cars next year rather than buy Japanese cars that are already on the lot. Never mind that Toyota and Honda took a risk to ship their cars NOW that Ford and GM did not take, let's just be "fair", and reward everyone equally.

As of today, the 80 percent of the trade in "Cash for Clunkers" has been for Asian or Japanese and Korean cars in the U.S. Actually, Toyota and Honda benfit the most from this.

Consequently, "Fashion" in Japan is a very different thing, and it does not put OPEC's interests ahead of its own

90 percent of the oil for Japan comes from the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, Iraq. And U.S. is protecting the passage for the sea lanes. U.S. gets only 22 percent of the oil from this area of OPEC oil.

>

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Klein2 at 10:59 AM JST - 18th August

Thank you sfjp for clearing that up. I guess American people have made the choice of a new generation. They will not choose American even if they can wait to do so. 80 percent sounds a lot higher than the near 50% official figure I read 5 days ago, but I will take your word for it. I guess Japanese car manufacturers will come out ok.

And thank you also for clarifying that since Japan moved from coal in the 60s, it has had little choice but to deal with the mideast. It has reacted by limiting its exposure as much as it can, but it sees oil imports as a necessary evil. The data show that.

You say 90% of Japanese oil imports come from the mideast. That seems high, but it might be correct, especially now that Alaskan production is about a third of what it was in 1988. Your "US protecting sea lanes" is stupendously irrelevant. Your statement that the US gets only 22% of the oil from this area is extremely vague. 22% of mideast exports? those imports are 22% of total US imports?

Whichever is the case, you cannot sugarcoat it. My full response is really too good to share, but let me summarize. Since 1970, US oil production is about halved, and US oil imports have about tripled. Since 1970, the oil consumption situation in Japan is nearly unchanged, but its GDP has more than TRIPLED. Only about half of all its energy comes from oil, which is astounding. Japan shows almost flat oil consumption over four decades, the US has continued to use more and more every year. Japan has no oil: None to use, none to squander. Japan, by definition, will never be self-sufficient in its oil use; apparently the US, despite being the world's largest producer, will not be either.

Innocuous links provided. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oilconsumption#Demandforoil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economyof_Japan
sfjp330 at 02:32 AM JST - 19th August

Klein2: Here is the information on 90 percent oil import from middle east by Japan.

www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Japan/Oil.html
sfjp330 at 07:26 AM JST - 19th August

klein2: my mistake, the 55 percent is from Korea and Japan with Toyota at 18.9 percent. What I meant was that of the top ten sales model, 8 of 10 were Japanese or Korean models. Here is the link for the info: www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2009/08/toyotapassesgmfortop_cash.html

Also, regarding the oil for U.S. from the middle east, I meant 22 percent of total US Imports.
DeepAir65 at 09:23 AM JST - 20th August

The lawmakers said the clunkers program has led to a scarcity of certain fuel-efficient vehicles, and reduced production levels have made it difficult for car companies to replenish their inventories

Isn't one of the aims of this program to help the car manufacturers and get them gearing up their production lines again? It's good to see the Americans finally moving away from their gas guzzlers but you can not expect a production and delivery system to suddenly switch on like a light - it takes time to get moving.

I would like it to go further and say they have to buy hybreds - I know this advantages the Japanese companies but then maybe Ford and GM et al would take these cars more seriously.