Police raid highway operator in negligence probe over tunnel collapse

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  • 6

    Disillusioned

    Woooo! This is serious! I wonder how many more tunnels are dangerous an how many more safety reports have been fiddled.

  • 17

    gogogo

    I saw them on the TV this morning tapping with hammers on the beams, they don't know what they are doing because two of them were tapping the same beam at the same time. They have been trained to tap the metal but have no idea why or what they are looking for.

  • 3

    Gobshite

    Safety Japan. Expect more of this in the years to come

  • 4

    GW

    Lets see if they find anyone responsible & actually DO something for once..................

  • 16

    Wong Cheuk Kwan

    After talking to an experienced engineer in Hong Kong yesterday, I now became aware that in the 1960-70s, engineers installed overhead ventilation air ducts above the flat-slabs, which were in turn supported by tension bars anchored into the roof of tunnels. Such a design relies on the use of tension bars anchored into the roof of tunnel to support the flat slabs but the bars would corrode in 10 to 20 years and with stress corrosion cracks in the metal, the bars might fail. Competent structural engineers should not have adopted such a design. Later in 1980s-90s, engineers started using curved (with the crown pointing upwards) instead of using flat slabs. The curved slabs are resting on the sides of the tunnel and by means of arch action, transfer the loads from the curved slabs to the tunnels walls. Like arch bridges that do not need columns, curved slabs do not need using central supports by means of tension bars. Thus, the least maintenance is needed for the curved slabs..

    If the flat-slab design was already formally approved in the 1960s-70s, it cannot be said that there was negligence on the engineers of the old time. The design life of the metal tension bars has reached its design life limit so we should not blame the maintenance staff. But the problems now are how to provide new supports to the flat slabs. Of course, these slabls can be reconstructed but the costs are prohibitive. I suggest that engineers should think of using hot-dip galvanized arch-shaped steel beams to support the flat slabs. Hot-dip galvanization can provide steel with a design life of 25 years at least and these beams can be replaced later easily. The beams can be resting on hot-dip galvanized steel frames placed against the tunnel design walls if the walls do not have enough strength. As long as there is still enough headroom inside the tunnel, the curved beams can be placed beneath the flat slabs. Otherwise, the steel beams can be installed above the flat slabs but hangers are then needed to support the slabs.

    It is far better to think of remedial actions now for the many tunnels than to pursue why the old design now becomes ineffective and which engineers should be blamed.

  • 11

    Disillusioned

    Wong Cheuk Kwan - The point is not how they were originally constructed. The point is, why were they allowed to deteriorate to a point of failure, especially after a recent inspection cleared them of any danger of failing. There are many reasons as to why this could have happened, everything from metal fatigue to water seepage and weakening because of earthquakes, but it is no excuse for fudging inspection results or carrying out inadequate testing. Japan has many tunnels for both road and rail. Some of the train tunnels are extremely long and I suspect they are all made in a similar design to the one that failed and the would also be of similar age. Scary stuff!

  • 7

    flipper2

    Suspended concrete slabs with nuts and bolts over a highway?? First I ever seen or heard, totally predictable accident waiting to happen. The question is how many of these are there out there?

  • 5

    papigiulio

    @wong cheuk: interesting info, thanks.

    @disillusioned: indeed, the inspection was a big failure.

  • 5

    jojo_in_japan

    I feel insulted that NEXCO jacked up rate to 900yen to improve the system. Money well spent?

  • 6

    Wong Cheuk Kwan

    According to the Murphy's Law, "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong". The original design using tension rods to support the flat slabs has a limited design life of say 20-30 years. If there exist stress corrosion cracks inside the grains of the metal bars, visual inspections cannot detect them. Failure is expected to occur within 20-30 years of construction. It is better now to figure out a permanent solution like installation of arch-shape steel beams to support the existing flat slabs. This solution may be more cost effective and quicker than reconstruction of the overhead air-ducts using curved slabs resting on the tunnel walls by means of arch action.

  • 4

    bogva

    I think the inspection is to be blamed but NOT for not discovering eventual aging or deterioration of materials.

    The operator and its engineers are to blame that they should have foreseen long time ago the problem of the old design! They should have already started replacing or reinforcing that old design.

  • 6

    Wong Cheuk Kwan

    The flat slabs supported by means of ordinary steel rods inside the tunnel are expected to fail within 20-30 years after use. Failure after 3 decades of use is not surprising. Therefore, it is dangerous to use tension rods whether they are made of stainless steel or ordinary steel.

  • 4

    zichi

    all of the installed concrete, steel and bolts are all the originals ones installed in the 1970's construction. The bolts should have changed at least every 10 years. I think the suggestions by Wong Cheuk Kwan is what's needed.

  • 1

    Mocheake

    The cops love looking good on TV after a disaster like this. The posts above highlight some of the key elementss leading to tragedies like the tunnel cave-in. Over time, things begin to fail. That goes for humans as well as the best-designed bridges, tunnels, etc.. Inspections may catch some failures but won't catch all. We'll see if NEXCO was negligent or not in due time.

  • 3

    blue_monday

    47,000 thousand cars a day, let's assume and average of 3,000 JPY toll per vehicle, that equals 141,000,000 JPY in revenue a day. Nexco certainly isn't short of money.

  • 1

    AustPaul

    I assume it was the standard images of cops in suits filing into the building and returning with a big box of records each.. Amazed as I thought in this day and age it would be more hard drives etc...

  • -1

    basroil

    Wong Cheuk KwanDec. 04, 2012 - 11:54AM JST

    It is far better to think of remedial actions now for the many tunnels than to pursue why the old design now becomes ineffective and which engineers should be blamed.

    Exactly true.

    Though the company running the pipe should be blamed for not reassessing the design every decade or so to make sure that it's still up to modern safety standards (through use of remedial measures like the ones you mentioned for this design, though some designs need to be completely replaced). It's no different from a highrise building or nuclear plant, even if the thing was state of the art back then, 30 years is a very long time for safety systems to improve. Seems they should have done something about it after the Ted Williams Tunnel collapse that was remarkably similar (in that case short bolts and bad epoxy caused roof slabs to fall).

  • 0

    IMijjasik

    Whatever the situation or the problem is, I hope they'd get those tunnels fix before it collapses like a domino and before such natural disaster strikes which might cause another mischief.

  • 1

    Wong Cheuk Kwan

    Please install additional supports for the flat slabs in other tunnels using the same design, while the investigations are going on. This is to prevent another disaster from occurring. Time is running out!

  • 2

    tmarie

    So this company KNEW their lifespans and didn't bother to change the nuts and bolts or upgrade their tunnels?? Yep, safety Japan. Make as much money as you can and skip the safety aspects. I hope these families sue the pants off them. Sick and disgusting. Nothing surprising though.

  • 0

    GW

    Lets hope the keystones actually nail some of those responsible & that their actions arent simply CYA!

  • -1

    avigator

    Won, very professional and objective explanations and suggestions. Here in Japan there goes the saying "no can see, no can hit", so basically it is wait until something happens. Let;s hope for the best because with on going earthquakes, these slabs can only continue to become unstable. Yes, definitely an accident waiting to happen. It might be excessively costly, but not taking action right away will prove costlier in the long run.

  • -7

    overchan

    Wong chewk kuan.

    The disaster could not be prevented. Sound test. ETc. ETc. If the bolt was the problem. It could be a bad bolt since the first day it was used. Maybe the thread was bad and they welded it. Nobody know. Onlu the guy who assembled it.

  • 3

    Crazedinjapan

    Hey GW .. Just wondering where the people are that would consider half the comments made today a Japan Bashing .

    Your right on the target . Pure negligence ! Just what was said over and over on here. Today's news clips showed anchors with bolts missing on more than one anchor . Nexco good job at inspections ! Not ! Corrosion everywhere , bolts missing and what's with the hammer tapping ?? I've worked with steel for years as a mechanic ...finding flaws with a hammer is not very reliable.

    Here is something they said the anchors that were over 5 meters couldn't be inspected right...well you are standing in a concrete slab....ever hear of that invention called ...a ladder ???

    Lots of people will do a run around here , top dog will resign and get his cushy job in some other big company. Is what I'm stating here more bashing or is it just stating the obvious As for the people that perished needlessly , lets not forget about them , all the bureaucracy surrounding this now most likely will, like GW stated its always taking the loss of life before changes are made in this country.

  • 2

    Disillusioned

    Overchan - Of course it oiled have been prevented. They knew very well the bolts holding the roof up were t the end of their lifespan and they knowingly fudged the inspection reports. Think about the stringent testing done on airplanes. This kind of testing has to be initiated for all the tunnels of the same age and construction in Japan, regardless of cost and, the government should be making sure it happens.

  • -6

    overchan

    Desilutioned- Those bolts where old but they are not simple bolts. They would never rust. Sometimes the mistakes are on the installation. Maybe they were not properly angled. Or the slab had a small crack. Anything is possible. But i believe that the bolt was faulty since the first day of the installation. And got worse by the time. Police will say what happened. We will see.

  • 1

    gelendestrasse

    I don't think the police are going to be the ones responsible for checking if a company has been doing the proper inspections. That would be up to a different part of the government responsible for highways. I'm not sure what that is in Japan, the US equivalent would be the Department of Transportation or National Highway Safety Administration. The only reason the cops got involved is that there is death and injury involved. This might require manslaughter charges against the people who were supposed to be inspecting the tunnels.

    I get the idea from Wong's post that this failure is pretty well documented and that any tunnel built with this method should have been inspected and changed, if necessary. Why this wasn't done is going to be the basis for any criminal charges.

    The whole thing is an unnecessary tragedy. The only good news is that it wasn't a reactor this time.

  • 0

    basroil

    overchanDec. 04, 2012 - 09:24PM JST

    Those bolts where old but they are not simple bolts. They would never rust.

    They apparently were hot-dip galvanized bolts. They are rust RESISTANT, not immune. Japan is known for hotspring water, and while not as concentrated as that, water stored in mountains is plenty corrosive. 30 years is more than enough to destroy the zinc coat and allow rust to form, and if they were defective or improperly installed (which the 7 checks they've had since the thing was built should have found), it could have taken much less.

  • -7

    nigelboy

    Many of these tunnels, roads, and bridges were built during the growth period and they are due for a major overhaul. Though the incident was tragic, it comes at an election time where it's only the LDP that addressed this issue to boost the construction spending.

    It appears that Sasago was the only tunnel for some unknown reason that did not conduct the accoustic test while the other three that NEXCO West Japan operated was tested.

  • 0

    overchan

    Basroil - what about the steel inside the concrete slabs? Im really curious about the incident. Maybe the slab cracked and let humidity inside the slab causing corrosion on the steel net.

  • 0

    multitasker

    What was the point of having these slabs anyway? Air vent? Prevent concrete from falling from the ceiling onto the road?

  • 0

    BuzzB

    Lots of good discussion here. Most of it seems centered on the failure if the steel components. I think it will be revealed that the concrete composition itself failed. Then the bolts were let go. The concrete of the tunnel core is directly in contact with the native rock and all the moisture and minerals within. This can degrade concrete composition faster than galvanized steel.

  • 4

    zichi

    nigelboy

    it comes at an election time where it's only the LDP that addressed this issue to boost the construction spending.

    The LDP made no mention of updating the roda tunnels.You are just jumping on the bandwagon. The failures of the road and rail infrastructures is because the LDP when in gov't didn't ensure that they were updated since like it did nothing about the Fukushima atomic power plant.

  • -6

    nigelboy

    The LDP made no mention of updating the roda tunnels.You are just jumping on the bandwagon. The failures of the road and rail infrastructures is because the LDP when in gov't didn't ensure that they were updated since like it did nothing about the Fukushima atomic power plant.

    The intention to boost spending on public works(which includes UPDATING tunnels, bridges, etc.) was mentioned by Abe prior to this accident. On the flip side, none of the other party even touched the issue except for DPJ who was against the plan.

    It's really pathetic for you to use "no mention of updating the road tunnels" when hindsight is always 20/20. What's next zichi? Are you going to say "The LDP made no mention of updating Sasago"?

  • 2

    zichi

    @nigelboy

    the gov't agreed a ¥880 billion package but nothing mentioned about updating transport infrastructure.

    Cabinet approves Y880 billion stimulus package http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/cabinet-approves-y880-bil-stimulus-package

    Abe states he'll propose a ¥200 trillion public works package (election speaky) but no mention of the aging transport infrastructure? Usually these public works are roads and bridges to nowhere. The American's call it pork barrel spending.

    Abe says LDP will propose Y200 trillion public works package http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/abe-says-ldp-will-propose-y200-trillion-public-works-package

    I read, the cost of updating the current infrastructure would likely cost more than ¥150 trillion.

  • 2

    zichi

    Two of those same tunnel designs are here in Kobe on the Hanshin Expressway.

  • 2

    zichi

    Message from NEXCO president in 2005

    Slogan at NEXCO East is "Providing you the best way". Based on this idea, we always consider the customer first, strive for greater efficiency, aim to be a company that carries out fair and transparent business, and work to provide safe and enjoyable expressways and high quality services. As we continue this work, we will appreciate the understanding and support of our customers.

    http://www.e-nexco.co.jp/english/message.html

    In 20011, its toll revenue was ¥1.44 billion/day.

  • -5

    nigelboy

    the gov't agreed a ¥880 billion package but nothing mentioned about updating transport infrastructure.

    The "Cabinet" is under DPJ. Please do concentrate for a change.

    Abe states he'll propose a ¥200 trillion public works package (election speaky) but no mention of the aging transport infrastructure? Usually these public works are roads and bridges to nowhere. The American's call it pork barrel spending.

    How's this.

    Abe states he'll propose a ¥200 trillion public works package but no mention of roads and bridges to nowhere. Usually these public works are for refurbishing the aging transport infrastrcuture.

    Two can play this stupid game, zichi.

    In any case, the 200 trillion yen public works package was submitted to lower house on June of 2012.

    http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/news/20120604-OYT1T01029.htm

    The basic outline is linked below.

    http://www.jimin.jp/policy/policy_topics/pdf/seisaku-119.pdf

  • 4

    zichi

    nigelboy

    you are the one starting the "stupid game" by claiming that the LDP is the only party concerned with updating the transport infrastructure which it didn't actually do the last time in power.

  • -5

    nigelboy

    you are the one starting the "stupid game" by claiming that the LDP is the only party concerned with updating the transport infrastructure which it didn't actually do the last time in power.

    I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about the issues and plans for this upcoming election. Please do concentrate.

  • 5

    zichi

    nigelboy

    the tunnel which collapsed is a design approved by the LDP gov't of the day. Since then during its decades of rule it never issued any updating requests for the tunnel. Same happened at the Fukushima atomic power plant which was approved by a LDP gov't and never took any steps to ensure the safety of the plant. The LDP is partly responsible for the nuclear disaster, and partly responsible for this tunnel collapse.

    So easy to not to talk about all the LDP didn't do in its more than five decades of gov't and now only want to talk about the future. If the LDP wins the election we'll see a return to just more of the same as it was over the last five decades.

  • -5

    nigelboy

    Zichi,

    People like you are so typical in society today. You want 100% safety and yet if it's s penny over your desired amount, you shout "pork barrel" and 'waste"

  • 2

    Thomas Anderson

    This is Fukushima all over again. How did the fire start in the first place?

  • 3

    GW

    Come on nigelboy surely even you know Nexco is a mix of PORK & an Amakudari haven for the pilfering class!

    The value for money provided by nexco & their ilk is pathetically low & very much a part of institutionalized corruption in Japan

  • 2

    zichi

    nigelboy

    pork barrel spending is when its not necessary like roads and bridges to nowhere, which happens even here in Japan.

    The collapsed tunnel, like every other tunnel, bridge and elevated road should get a major update after 25-30 years. The cost in this case, should have been met by the expressway company which last year collected ¥1.44 billion every day, 24/7.

    It was the responsibility of the LDP gov't to inspect those infrastructures every 5 years to ensure safety was being maintained and that the major updates happen.

    Just like at Fukushima, these failures lie at the feet of LDP gov't's.

  • 0

    Thomas Anderson

    According to the Murphy's Law, "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong".

    There ought to have been some fail-safe devices installed... The rooftop of the tunnel fell down, but that could have been prevented or minimized.

  • 0

    GW

    Hey Zichi,

    Looks like your developing issues, hope I havent pushed you over to the dark side where I call home : )

  • 0

    zichi

    GW no not at all. I would say there was a design defect with this tunnel and the others of the same. There also seems to be a lack of correct safety inspections on this tunnel. If the expressway company have done wrong they should be prosecuted.

  • -3

    nigelboy

    pork barrel spending is when its not necessary like roads and bridges to nowhere, which happens even here in Japan.

    I really don't get this "roads to nowhere" labeling. Most roads connect from one destination to another so unless it's a dead end, the term is just asinine.

    For comparison, Japan has a total of 2,844 km of roads in which the speed limit is over 100km. In contrast, U.K., France, Italy, and Germany has 8,483km, 10,509km, 6,532 km, and 12,102 km respectively. When you compare roads with speed limit over 60km, those countries almost double the length of Japan. Therefore, the term "road to nowhere" simply just doesn't make sense. In fact, based on those figures, you could say that Japan lacks "roads to somewhere".

    The collapsed tunnel, like every other tunnel, bridge and elevated road should get a major update after 25-30 years. The cost in this case, should have been met by the expressway company which last year collected ¥1.44 billion every day, 24/7.

    Again, hindsight is and always will be 20/20. Imagine for a minute that this accident did not happen. Are you going to convince me that people here as well as the general public are going to accept trillions of trillions of yen in major overhaul spending on roads, tunnels, and bridges when just last month, Maehara was boasting the fact that his Cabinet was able to reduce 32% in public works?

    The toll figure that you've been spreading are from NEXCO East Japan and is not the operator of the tunnels where this accident took place. Secondly, 40~50% of the tolls (revenues) are earmarked as lease payments for The Japan Expressway Holding and Debt Repayment Agency which in turn is responsible repaying the public debt incurred. Along with the other debt servicing requirements that these companies are obligated to, your figure is absolutely meaningless unless you actually study the annual reports.

    It was the responsibility of the LDP gov't to inspect those infrastructures every 5 years to ensure safety was being maintained and that the major updates happen

    It is the job of the MLIT to set standards on when and how the inspections are done. As to the funding of these major updates, people like you who constantly scream "wasteful" spending and "roads to nowhere" and the lawmakers (recently, the DPJ) that cater to these ignorant masses make it virtually impossible for such funding to be implemented.

  • 0

    zichi

    @nigelboy

    I really don't get this "roads to nowhere" labeling. Most roads connect from one destination to another so unless it's a dead end, the term is just asinine.

    well I can inform you, from personal experience that roads to nowhere actually exist. When I lived in the Japan Alps, I went into the mountains to make paintings and came across a brand new roads to nowhere. A brand new road section a few hundred meters long with a beginning and end but wasn't connected to anyother road, like a landing strip.

    Bridges to nowhere is building an expensive bridge but only serves a very small number of people.

  • 0

    zichi

    @nigelboy,

    the NEXCO toll revenue I quoted was taken from their web site.

  • -3

    nigelboy

    well I can inform you, from personal experience

    There we go. When you lose an argument, use "personal experience". On top of that, it could of well been a "landing" strip.

    Bridges to nowhere is building an expensive bridge but only serves a very small number of people.

    Define "small".

    the NEXCO toll revenue I quoted was taken from their web site

    Yes. But it's the wrong one Please concentrate once again. http://www.c-nexco.co.jp/ .

  • 1

    zichi

    @nigelboy

    There we go. When you lose an argument, use "personal experience". On top of that, it could of well been a "landing" strip.

    Why would I expect you to believe since you usually believe in no one except yourself? They don't build landing strips on top of high mountains. When I asked the locals about it, they said, a grant was available to build the road to nowhere, so it was built for local employment.

  • 1

    zichi

  • 0

    zichi

    A Kyoto road to nowhere http://regex.info/blog/2007-03-25/403

  • 0

    zichi

  • -2

    nigelboy

    A Kyoto road to nowhere

    They're building a tunnel. Facepalm.

    http://www.city.kyoto.lg.jp/kensetu/cmsfiles/contents/0000067/67967/saihyouka21tiyousiyo-6.pdf

  • 0

    zichi

    @nigelboy

    you don't need to be an expert to be able to collect facts about something, journalists do it all the time. He did the research. Are you an expert on this?

    The massive public spending by decades of LDP gov't's was to generate contracts for the top five construction companies which in turn all make sizable political contributions to the LDP. The same top five construction companies which are now being paid ¥13 billion for decontamination work in Fukushima. Just like the nuclear power companies which also make large political contributions, and telling their employee's to vote for the LDP in the general election, since they are the one likely to restart the reactors.

  • 0

    zichi

    @nigelboy

    the Kyoto road to nowhere was built years ago and never complete. Look at the rusting girders?

  • -2

    nigelboy

    you don't need to be an expert to be able to collect facts about something, journalists do it all the time. He did the research. Are you an expert on this?

    It's crap. Hence, I checked his background which explained why it was crap.

    The massive public spending by decades of LDP gov't's was to generate contracts for the top five construction companies which in turn all make sizable political contributions to the LDP.

    Not limited to LDP. In fact, Ozawa is known to receive substantial funds from construction companies(Nishimatsu).
    And as if "sizeable" contribution from special interest group is only unique to Japan. Please.

    the Kyoto road to nowhere was built years ago and never complete. Look at the rusting girders?

    It is completed.
    What people like you fail to realize is that this was one part of the master plan to expand the width of Kyoto's roads広域国道網の充実 initiated in 2001.

    But here's the thing. You have clearly demonstrated the typical behavior of the people I criticize. While you think this is a "waste" as it is now, I can only imagine what your reaction would be if such expansion width project never took place and a major accident involving a bus full of tourists would of ensued. You'd be crying "LDP should of done something!!". As I stated, hindsight is and always will be 20/20.

  • -2

    sfjp330

    The end results is that nobody is liable. Earthquakes of the last few years could not have helped. After almost four decades of use, a portion of loose panels above became weakened due to either shifting of the earth within the mountain itself and with water seepage through that particular panels became unstable due to vibration. Most likely, these panels were interlocked and if weight above them was dislodged due to one of the reasons, creating a domino effect weakening the entire ceiling throughout. The Japanese are very smart people and will take a very in depth look at what caused this tragedy.

  • 1

    GW

    nigelboy your defending the indefensible!

    nexco & their ilk can EASILY pay for maintenance with the funds they have already, they simply need to cut waste, cut K/B, cut amakudari etc etc & STOP building roads, bridges that will see little traffic, there is COLLOSAL waste currently.

    A better use of funds collected will correct a lot possibly all the problems currently known.

  • -2

    nigelboy

    nigelboy your defending the indefensible

    GW,

    Really? Zichi offers a link to his so-called "road to nowhere" and hence "waste" but as I linked above, the road not only leads to somewhere but is part of the construction project to expand the width of the roads , eliminate the numerous curves, and thus make it not only efficient (ambulances, fire engines, etc.) but improves safety as well. Ask yourself this. How can I resist not responding??

  • 0

    sfjp330

    nigelboy Dec. 07, 2012 - 02:25AM JST the road not only leads to somewhere but is part of the construction project to expand the width of the roads , eliminate the numerous curves, and thus make it not only efficient (ambulances, fire engines, etc.) but improves safety as well.

    And what does it lead to? Increase in cost? Can the goverment spend many more billions more for improvements other than basic needs? There are over 1500 old tunnels in Japan, and I doubt this is the direction the J-goverment wants to do. Just the basic safety maintanance and rebuilding alone runs in the billions and they really have no plans to do much more.

  • -2

    nigelboy

    And what does it lead to? Increase in cost?

    Yes. And "safety".

    Can the goverment spend many more billions more for improvements other than basic needs?

    Yes. The construction funding for public works is half of what it was during the peak.

    There are over 1500 old tunnels in Japan, and I doubt this is the direction the J-goverment wants to do.

    When you mean J-government, do you mean the MLIT?

    Just the basic safety maintanance and rebuilding alone runs in the billions and they really have no plans to do much more.

    Is that what the LDP is proposing?

  • 0

    sfjp330

    nigelboy Dec. 07, 2012 - 05:05AM JST Is that what the LDP is proposing?

    Each goverment representatives will continue to lobby for their prefecture's needs. However, when it comes down to the final decision, there will be limited funds available for the repair, maintanance, and rebuiding. Anything beyond basic repair will be very to hard to justify during the difficult economic times.

  • -2

    nigelboy

    Each goverment representatives will continue to lobby for their prefecture's needs. However, when it comes down to the final decision, there will be limited funds available for the repair, maintanance, and rebuiding. Anything beyond basic repair will be very to hard to justify during the difficult economic times.

    Yes. That was primarily due to the fact that the DPJ had cut down on the construction budget. What the LDP is proposing is a 200 trillion yen 10 year plan which along with the monetary easing plan would finally get Japan out of this deflationary cycle.

  • 0

    GW

    nigelboy,

    ........................what to say, you really cant see the collosal waste & stealing right in fron of you...............

    More spending will ONLY increase debt, increase amakudari, increase K/B's, speed up Japans demise, I suppose Japan is beyond help, might as well press the pedal to the metal & get it over with eh!

  • -2

    nigelboy

    what to say, you really cant see the collosal waste & stealing right in fron of you

    GW,

    With all due respect, my previous post indicated the lack of roads with speed limits 100km Japan compared to Germany, U.K., France, and Italy.

    More spending will ONLY increase debt, increase amakudari, increase K/B's, speed up Japans demise, I suppose Japan is beyond help, might as well press the pedal to the metal & get it over with eh!

    Yes. Your constant yearly cry for "doom and gloom" scenario is well noted.

  • 0

    sfjp330

    nigelboy Dec. 08, 2012 - 02:23AM JST With all due respect, my previous post indicated the lack of roads with speed limits 100km Japan compared to Germany, U.K., France, and Italy.

    Compare to countries that you mention in Europe, Japan's geography has three-fourth in mountains. This result in making the roads with many turns. It's very costly and difficult to make a hi-speed freeways or expressways with so many mountains in each turn.

  • -2

    nigelboy

    Compare to countries that you mention in Europe, Japan's geography has three-fourth in mountains. This result in making the roads with many turns. It's very costly and difficult to make a hi-speed freeways or expressways with so many mountains in each turn.

    Thank you. Hence, there needs to be more expressways (which the goal is to minimize the curves with tunnels, etc.) because you just basically affirmed that Japan lacks them.

  • 0

    sfjp330

    nigelboy Dec. 08, 2012 - 04:47AM JST Thank you. Hence, there needs to be more expressways (which the goal is to minimize the curves with tunnels, etc.) because you just basically affirmed that Japan lacks them.

    There is no need. By 2030, Japan will have drastic decrease in population by estimated 10 million people. Why would you need to build more roads? By 2050, there will be less 30 million people than today. Save the money and improve the safety of existing roads.

  • -1

    nigelboy

    There is no need. By 2030, Japan will have drastic decrease in population by estimated 10 million people. Why would you need to build more roads? By 2050, there will be less 30 million people than today. Save the money and improve the safety of existing roads.

    Better commerce leads to revitalization of rural areas. The "save money" or "cut expenses" attitude is the reason why Japan is suffering a deflationary cycle.

    Another example is the Shinkansen between Tokyo and Osaka. Many people in Japan stated that it was "unncessary" and "waste" because there were existing roads (non expressway which took many hours) and the world was in the age of automobiles and rail transportation was going to be obsolete. This is why the government at that time did not fund it.

    They were wrong.

  • 0

    sfjp330

    nigelboyDec. 08, 2012 - 06:23AM JST Better commerce leads to revitalization of rural areas. The "save money" or "cut expenses" attitude is the reason why Japan is suffering a deflationary cycle.

    Only way to lead to revitalization of the rural areas in Japan is for some of these major companies to relocate their manufacturing and R&D to rual areas and create jobs for young people. The subcontractors and other businesses will follow and this will require goverment to build more efficient infastructure, such as improved roads, airports, train stations and other necessities. As long as major companies stay in Yokyo-Nagoya-Osaka corridor, not much change will happen to Japan.

  • -1

    nigelboy

    Only way to lead to revitalization of the rural areas in Japan is for some of these major companies to relocate their manufacturing and R&D to rual areas and create jobs for young people. The subcontractors and other businesses will follow and this will require goverment to build more efficient infastructure, such as improved roads, airports, train stations and other necessities. As long as major companies stay in Yokyo-Nagoya-Osaka corridor, not much change will happen to Japan.

    Yes. In this case, built the infrastrucuture first so that companies are motivated to relocate their businesses. Thank you again.

  • 0

    sfjp330

    nigelboy Dec. 08, 2012 - 06:59AM JST In this case, built the infrastrucuture first so that companies are motivated to relocate their businesses.

    What the goverment should do is to offer generous tax credits to the businesses that are relocating to certain rural areas. Without any incentives, very few businesses want to relocate to countryside. Once you identify the number of businesses that are committed to relocating within 5 to 10 years, then they can build well planned infastructure that is cost efficient.

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