Documentary opens world of geisha to U.S. audiences

By Leanne Tsuruda

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tigris at 09:40 AM JST - 13th July

****Not prostitutes? No, not prostitutes. With an average age of 60+, some of them 80+ Geisha are unlikely to sell high priced sex or any sex for that matter.
blackfeet at 02:40 PM JST - 13th July

Oh realy ?

I am very disapointed...

I was thinking all the girls with kimono was.
RepublicofTexas at 04:02 PM JST - 13th July

I was thinking all the girls with kimono was.

The kimono is just a form of traditional Japanese dress and was worn by men and women (styles were different by gender). Most Japanese people will have worn one some time during their life usually for coming-of-age days, weddings, tea ceremony, etc. It's not to be confused with a yukata or jinbei (other forms of traditional dress that are less formal).
wilbur at 10:45 PM JST - 13th July

just in time...because its never been done before
Cos at 07:51 AM JST - 14th July

"Geisha were not prostitutes is a Western misconception"

It's your misconception. You want all black and all white. It's false to say geisha were not prostitutes. Geishas were "artists" of course. Like in the West,till the end of 19th, comedians and opera singers were "artists". The difference between the ordinary ho and the "artist" is mostly that you know the former sleeps for money, doesn't refuse any customer and doesn't love you. The latter makes you believe she is seduced by you. That means to get the "artist" in your futon, you need to pay much more, buy her a house and many jewels, pretend you love her, be really charming (="famous or at a high rank in society"). And yeah, the "artist" tries to sing or dance professionnally...

That used to be, 100 years ago. These days geishas (no longer called that way in Japan) and opera singers are living of their day job. Mostly because the famous and powerful guys have changed of taste. They prefer TV talentos, journalists and models, so the not-so-talented gold diggers choose go in show-biz.

"if the services of real geisha were a little less exclusive/expensive "

They aren't. Getting a private show is pricy and complicated to book, but you'd have to pay the same or more to get any established artist performing exclusively for you at your birthday party. You can see the geikos and maikos singing and dancing on stage for quite cheap (2000 yen~). They could do it more often if they had any kind of success. The truth is most people find them particularly boring and prefer the Takarazuka.
Alphaape at 09:15 AM JST - 14th July

OK, Geisha's are not prostitues. Let's change the view. Suppose a woman who had money from work, decided to go to a "male entertainer's" bar where the men would sit with them, let them talk and stroke their ego and sing and dance with them. Then if they are lucky, the woman will find a way to pay for his support, and all he has to do is have sex with her from time to time. I don't think that the Japanese male society would tolerate this situation.

I am not knocking any body who does this, but let's just call it what it is. Even if sex is not involved, look at it this way; a man goes to an establishment, and the sole purpose is for him to get entertained, carry on conversations with a strange woman, drink and have a good time. What is the difference between that and a visit to an Enjoy kosai or meeting woman via the web dating service.

I have explained to many Japanese women who say us American's cheat. Look at it this way, instead of me going home after a hard day's work, and talking with you, and sharing with you the ups and downs of the day and what is really on my mind and spending the time from 8pm until bedtime developing a bond with my wife, I go and visit some strange woman who I have no legal ties with, and tell her all that is on my mind. Nevermind that I am not the only "person" she talks with and if I am her supporter then I am not any better than the guys who goes out and cheats on his wife with another woman.

As the old saying for Oscar Meyer bolonga commericals says: "No matter how thin you slice it, it is still baloney."
tigris at 10:56 AM JST - 14th July

What is the difference between that and a visit to an Enjoy kosai or meeting woman via the web dating service.

ONE major difference is that Geisha are mostly elderly ladies, the majority in their 60's and 70's. One of the oldest who performed until the age of 93 died recently. I know several who are above 80. The fees for Geisha do NOT decline with age. Don't really understand why some people insist that the Geisha profession has anything to do with sex, but maybe some people are infatuated with obachans. The Wikipedia entry for Geisha is informative and accurate. Please read it before posting assumptions or personal theories. For more information, American anthropologist Liz Dalby's book contains all the information you might want.
Alphaape at 06:54 PM JST - 14th July

tigris, the point of my post was not to compare directly geisha's to enjoy kosai. I am well aware of the history of geisha, even to the point that when they first started long ago, they were men dressed as women, but that is beside the point.

Don't really understand why some people insist that the Geisha profession has anything to do with sex, but maybe some people are infatuated with obachans

The please tell me why some of them seek wealthy men (why not wealthy women if it truly is just an art form of entertainment) to provide them with funds to live and to support them if they have a child by them. I thought that professional performers were paid for their acting skills, and not by forming personal relationships with their patrons.

I will admit, patronage of rich people was common in Europe in the past when noted musicaians such as Beethoven and other perfomers sought the patronage of the aristocracy to support their life style, but from what I have read and I understand that not only was this the case with geisha's but it did go into that extra area of "services offered and rendered."

Not knkocking the traditions, I think it is a cultural phenomenon that is unique to Japan, but in the end, it is still a man seeking the services of a woman. Yes for an "entertainment" puropose but also for something extra.

I would like to know, how do Japanese women fell, those that have had husbands father children by geisha and watch as they get support from the husbands, or how they feel about their husbands spending time in places like geisha houses for entertainment away from them.
Zen_Builder at 07:14 PM JST - 14th July

Alphaabe.

A geisha performance cost about $1000+ and you can't just waltz in and hire them.

You need to be introduced by a patron/business contact similar to an exclusive Golf-club or similar in the west.

I don't think you actually know much about Geisha.
Alphaape at 08:00 PM JST - 14th July

Zen, I get the point that I can't just walk up and go to a performance without the proper introductions. What I am saying is if it is not all about sex, then why do they not show females as patrons to go visit them. Are there no rich and well connected women who would not want to go and view ancient customs and traditions and gain entertainment?
Zen_Builder at 08:10 PM JST - 14th July

Alphaape.

I guess that is more cultural than anything and to do with the traditional role of women in japan. Yet, many private ladies study under geisha and or similar culture schools. Also young girls study to become a "Nadesico" as it increases their chances of getting a richer husband.

For most Japanese business men, geisha are part of "treating" their partners/clients as anything said in the room will remain there. A Geisha will do more than just a performance during such an evening, they will engage clients in discussions and traditional games.

Bassicaly it is a way for the patrons to relax.
tigris at 08:51 PM JST - 14th July

The please tell me why some of them seek wealthy men to provide them with funds to live and to support them if they have a child by them.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Geisha. Most any woman naturally will seek funds and support if wealthy men father children with them, worldwide, everywhere, every day. These days personal relationships between Geisha and patrons are very rare, like other single women they got boyfriends.

The area of extra "services offered and rendered" is a phantasy. Just look at the age of the ladies. What "extra services" do you expect from an 80year old lady??

You also have a misconception of Geisha 'encounters'. One difference to Enjo Kosai, Hostesses, prostitutes etc is the age of the women, the other major difference is that you will never have the chance to spent time alone with a Geisha. To think that you will be left alone with a Geisha one-on-one in a closed room is pure phantasy and never happens in reality. Geisha appear in pairs, if alone with their mama-san, elder 'sister' or assistant. You will be able to enjoy dancing, shamisen playing, singing Karaoke in the company of other people. Much like expensive diner shows of entertainers. This is a pretty stuffy world, please consider the age of the ladies. Much closer to the atmosphere of dinner parties on cruise ships than an establishment selling 'extra services' by ladies. And regarding your last paragraph: Many regulars actually go with their wifes, the Geisha and the wifes often know each other. Why not? I mean married couples can't go together to diner parties with entertainment? I have spent 4-5 months in Kyoto regular Geisha-house-hopping with a monk (of one of the major temples in Kyoto) and his wife and during that time lived in a Geisha household. I did it for a professional project and while it was interesting and fun work, I was also glad when it was over. It is like many things in Japan, all about illusion.
Cos at 11:33 PM JST - 14th July

Tigris, I have never seen one 80 yr old geiko in Kyoto. That's as likely as seeing a 80 yr old sumo or a 80 yr old classical dancer. I guess the exceptions exists, but that's certainly not the rule.

I'd say 95% of them are between 21 and 45. 100% of the maikos being 16 to 20, of course. I don't know if their retirement age is fixed by the tradition. Many of them prefer becoming traditional art teachers, managers of okiya or to get a family life by the age of 40.

"Most any woman naturally will seek funds and support if wealthy men father children with them, worldwide, everywhere, every day. "

Normal women would marry the guy, live with him, or get only alimony for the children while they work for their own expenses. And as you know, this is forbidden for a geiko to live with a family, unless they quit the trade. When you were living in a "geisha household", you didn't go shopping for kimonos, underwear, music instruments ? No idea about the prices ? They are not getting that at Uniqlo. You'd have noticed that they need something like 100 million yen of equipment and art lessons at least, in order to start working. That money used to come from their "danna", and yes, that was also buying the danna the right to get sexual favors for himself or maybe for others. You know that the virginity of maikos used to be sold in an auction ? Then that was done in a party with the auction winner providing his equipment and his guests drinking and watching. It seems this part of the tradition no longer exists. After 45, that has become illegal. If some were still doing it, they'd lie and say they don't, otherwise their okiya could be shut down by the police.

"Many regulars actually go with their wifes,"

Are you talking about some "geisha dinner for tourists" business ? Japanese people rarely (never) take their partners to company events, even if it is to play golf or listen to a concert.

"I mean married couples can't go together to diner parties with entertainment?"

In Japan ? How old-fashioned !

80% of the geisha business is company event, the pricing and booking system of parties is a consequence of that. These days, the "dannas" are often replaced by companies, and of course in such case, the geikos don't have to sleep with "the company" (the stockholder ? the CEO ? all the staff ?), that would make a scandal if they did, imagine, corporate prostitution... For companies, it's like sponsoring a base-ball or a sumo team, they only get all the "the first rank tickets", and will offer them only to their good customers. There are still a few geikos that are sponsorised by private "dannas" that pay their kimonos, like other guys pay Vuitton bags to hostesses. How can you tell that's never in exchange of sex ? And well, you don't get seduction is a game ? You don't understand that when men are sure to get the girl, the game no longer interests them, it's like buying meat. When they have zero chance at all, that's also boring. Mizushobai women, hostesses and geikos are sucessful when they can convince all the men they have one little chance and that one of them will get sometimes the prize. Your 80 yr olg geisha must be extremely charming and young looking for her age.

"the Geisha and the wifes often know each other. Why not? "

Ask the wife of Sosuke Uno why that seemed to bother her so much. Obviously, she didn't know. Obviously the 120 million of Japanese that were shocked by Uno's innoncent geisha parties don't understand as well as you.
tigris at 01:41 AM JST - 15th July

Cos, just a few points. A cursory google search gives you this:

http://www.phototravels.net/kyoto/geisha-n/geisha-kyoto-n-038.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/photos/2007/12/04/2108790.htm

http://english.people.com.cn/200611/27/eng20061127_325586.html (bottom photo)

For obvious reasons the elderly are not photographed as much. In 1985 the average age of Geisha in Gion was around 49, These days it is higher. You might call the Geisha's union office in Kyoto for exact current statistics.

80% of the geisha business is company event

Not in Kyoto. In Kyoto most regular Geisha customers are monks, some of the mama-sans estimate up to 60%. Kyoto temples got the money - tax free religious non-profit organisations - from the multi million dollar tourist trade. Just calculate the entrance fees. As I wrote above: my sojourn in Kyoto's Geisha district was 'sponsored' by a monk who was always accompanied by his wife and he was not the only one doing so. Obviously at company events this does not happen.
Japanophile1 at 11:33 AM JST - 19th July

Alphaape

What I am saying is if it is not all about sex, then why do they not show females as patrons to go visit them. Are there no rich and well connected women who would not want to go and view ancient customs and traditions and gain entertainment?

Actually, it is my understanding that women have attended ozashiki before although not as frequently as men of course. Some of the women are even the wives of the men who frequent the various ochaya on a regular basis. But, more often than not, they might be business women or international travelers. Queen Elizabeth was once entertained by geiko of Kyoto and I doubt she was the recipient of sexual favors...