Saturday May 26, 2012

JAPAN NEWS AND DISCUSSION

Christian Bale denies Nanjing Massacre film is propaganda

Entertainment Dec. 12, 2011 - 12:40PM JST ( 155 )

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155 Comments

0

James TanakaDec. 12, 2011 - 06:54AM JST

i guess Japan thinks all the atrocities of the Japanese Imperial troops never happened.
8

whiskeysourDec. 12, 2011 - 07:07AM JST

I want to see this movie, at least the Chinese are trying to get out of filming flying ancient chinese warriors dodging 1000 arrows.

Everybody should watch Empire Of The Sun

I love that movie

It's another Japanese occupation movie
6

whiskeysourDec. 12, 2011 - 07:08AM JST

Empire Of The Sun is one of Bale's first movies. Steve Speilberg directed it !!!!!
21

calm downDec. 12, 2011 - 07:13AM JST

I wonder if Zhang and Bale will get together and do one on China's 'involvement' with Tibet next .
20

proxyDec. 12, 2011 - 07:37AM JST

There is no doubt the the Empirical Japanese army brutally killed thousands. However if it is a story about people trying to escape I hope they have included the Chinese scorched earth policy, the Chinese division that was sent to the port to sink all the boats and kill anyone trying to leave, the Chinese army division that guarded the last exit and shot people leaving, the Chinese army members that also looted the city, raped and killed civilians to rob then of their clothes.

Japan has acted nothing but peacefully for 66 years so whatever they are doing, it is working well. China's blatant anti-Japanese rhetoric is more likely to dredge up militarism in Japan than anything else. Already it is backfiring as South Korea which is still considered to be an historic client state by China has been driven by fear of Chinese nationalism into forging better ties with Japan.

I will await the Chinese movie about the tens of millions of people killed by the Chinese communists and their cultural revolution.
0

pamelotDec. 12, 2011 - 07:48AM JST

Everybody should watch Empire Of The Sun

Coincidentally starring a very young, Christian Bale.
1

WurthingtonDec. 12, 2011 - 08:06AM JST

Don't knock it until you see it... "book by its cover". Considering that the average Japanese person when captured by American soldiers during WWII were extremely surprised that we did not eat or kill them in some brutal manner one may surmise it is what the Japanese would have done. We often think that people think like we do and we react in a manner consistent to our own inclinations. Judging from the clinical way Japanese Geinojin on TV often watch video of foreighners and their difficult experiences and then make light of it you could possibly believe the Japanese were capable of such a massacre.
8

Geoff GillespieDec. 12, 2011 - 08:11AM JST

It is the latest in a string of films and TV series from China promoting national unity against an evil Japan

Thank god for unbiased reporting, eh...?
2

marcelitoDec. 12, 2011 - 08:53AM JST

Zhang made some great movies in the past. Will reserve judgment until I see it but its not as if Japan does not make its own war propaganda movies that put a positive light on their own and mainly negative on the other side. Indeed any country makes their own propaganda.
-17

NetNinjaDec. 12, 2011 - 08:57AM JST

GO CHRISTIAN BALE!!! I'll watch that movie, ten times just to make sure the world can see what Japan did.

This will be good for young Japanese to see as well. They have their great grandfather's DNA. It's time for them to recognize the monster inside.
2

proxyDec. 12, 2011 - 08:57AM JST

@Wurthington Japanese POWs were indeed treated well when they got to prison camp but not by their captures by any means. Most surrendering Japanese soldiers were just outright killed by marines until 1944. 60%-80% of the bodies of former Japanese soldiers recovered had no skull. One marine made a letter opener out of the leg bone from a dead Japanese soldier and sent it to the president. That and other well publicized incidents like the photo of an American woman with a Japanese skull on her desk sent to her by her boyfriend (google it) justifiably led Japanese soldiers to believe that they would be killed if captured.

Brutality in war is not one sided, Japanese, Chinese, American, Canadian and German soldiers all committed atrocities.
3

Dennis BauerDec. 12, 2011 - 08:57AM JST

i am curious of how much they will show in the movie
-5

NetNinjaDec. 12, 2011 - 09:01AM JST

I think director had better be vigilant when this movie comes to Japan. Someone is going to take scissors to it and splice in some AKB48 scenes.
-16

Elbuda MexicanoDec. 12, 2011 - 09:05AM JST

Japan should bow it's head in shame!!
6

Elbuda MexicanoDec. 12, 2011 - 09:06AM JST

Also the communist regime should reflect on their own atrocities from Beijing too!!
0

soldaveDec. 12, 2011 - 09:09AM JST

Notice that the report was made by AFP and not by Japan Today or Kyodo News.

Am guessing this will be mysteriously looked over by a lot of Japanese cinemas,
0

AylerDec. 12, 2011 - 09:14AM JST

Zhang Yimou is an incredible director with a very deep understanding of and empathy for the human condition. Watch Not on Less or Travelling Alone for Thousands of Miles (starring Takakura Ken). This movie will have detractors shouting propoganda but I doubt many of them will actually bother to see it sadly.
6

MaboDofuIsSpicyDec. 12, 2011 - 09:18AM JST

The Chinese killed many more of their own people than all of the deaths combined.
1

jackiengDec. 12, 2011 - 09:21AM JST

I wonder if Zhang and Bale will get together and do one on China's 'involvement' with Tibet next .

I wonder if Japan will ever make a movie about bataan death march, nanking massacre, manila massancre, unit 731, sook ching massacre???? oops i forgot....japan were the 'victims' of the war...
4

ElvensilvanDec. 12, 2011 - 09:23AM JST

Anti-Japan propaganda? No, it's just China promoting national unity against an evil Japan.

Judge it as you prefer, personally, I'd like to see the film before stating anything against any or both sides :)
1

jackiengDec. 12, 2011 - 09:29AM JST

when hundreds of movies depicts the holocaust with the germans as the bad guys - its called a 'historical' drama. but when china does it - its called 'propaganda'?
2

Pukey2Dec. 12, 2011 - 09:33AM JST

I noticed the massacre-deniers are out in force clicking the good button whenever a poster is deflecting the attention back to China. Yes, China's recent history is nothing to laugh about, but what the Imperial Army did should not be swept under the carpet.

netninja:

I'll watch that movie

I'd like to, but I have a feeling that I'm going to have to either download it, wait for the DVD or watch it abroad (or risk entering the cinema under a hail of bullets). Remember what happened when they tried to show The Cove in Japan? The scumbags even attacked the elderly mother of the cinema owner in her own home.

proxy:

I will await the Chinese movie about the tens of millions of people killed by the Chinese communists and their cultural revolution.

Me too. But I also await Japan's movies about how the Ainus were nearly wiped out. I guess Japan and China ain't too different from one another. Certain subjects are still taboo here.
2

rys2senseDec. 12, 2011 - 09:33AM JST

it is still based on a novel, and i wonder if it shows the 30 million people or so who starved to death as a result of China's own government or the mass rape and sex slavery that goes on TODAY in China not tto mention the slavery and house demolitions.
5

tkoind2Dec. 12, 2011 - 09:41AM JST

Did anyone call Shindler's list propaganda?

I am quite anti-Chinese government for the most part. And see their nation's bullying of Asia to be a forerunner of the same kind of imperialist violence that Japan unleashed in Asia in the last century. That said, China does have a point about the violence perpetrated by the Japanese during their reign over Asia. Like it or not, horrific things happened all across Asia acted out by the Japanese.

I have great respect for Germany and how they have embraced their past and committed to never repeating it. Their film industry has done a great deal to portray the war though visions that are neither romantic nor forgiving.

Japan on the other hand, continues to make heroic films illustrating their role in the war as victim, hero and people hanging in there. Rarely if ever does Japan make cinema to portray the war as it was in many places around Asia, violent, senseless and evil.

If Japan cannot adress these issues, then China should be free to do so.

The main objective here should be simple. Cinema should help educate us to the horrors of war and encourage us all, regardless of nationality, to abhore and prevent war. If China uses this simply as propaganda, then they become no better than the people responsible for starting the last war, because they invite the next one.
-1

melonbarmonsterDec. 12, 2011 - 09:46AM JST

What a farcical article making a bigger deal out of the movie about Japanese war atrocities than the atrocities themselves. Nippon ganbare!
-7

issa1Dec. 12, 2011 - 09:50AM JST

Dirty propaganda and lying, sponsored by the Chinese government !
3

Pukey2Dec. 12, 2011 - 09:53AM JST

mapodofu:

The Chinese killed many more of their own people than all of the deaths combined.

I see. So we'd better not talk about Japanese atrocities then? By the way, how many people were murdered by the Imperial Army? A lot more than those killed by the atomic bombs? Shall I follow your line of thinking then?

ry2sense:

TODAY in China

OK, let's stop all movies and serials with historical settings. Tell NHK to stop producing shows like Genji Monogatari and Mito Komon. And stop all these Japanese and American movies set during the last world war.
0

DogDec. 12, 2011 - 10:11AM JST

NetNinjaDec. 12, 2011 - 08:57AM JST This will be good for young Japanese to see as well.

As if that's gonna happen. What do you think Japan is, a democratic society with freedom of expression?

I've got more chance of picking up a 'Mishima A Life In Four Chapters' DVD in my local video shop, than getting to watch this and god forbid any film theatre that dares attempt to show it. The black van boys and the LDP politicians will come out in force.
2

Patrick HattmanDec. 12, 2011 - 10:11AM JST

The Japanese make the "Isoroku" movie angling for a more sympathetic view of Admiral Yamamoto and Pearl Harbor, while the Chinese make a movie about the Nanking Massacre, and millions of Japanese and Chinese can see them, if they so desire, and form their own opinions. It's a much better world in this regard in the 21st century.
-1

NetNinjaDec. 12, 2011 - 10:13AM JST

Pukey2 - We should go together. Stand together. I'd love to hear it. I vote with my wallet, not with my pen. Let them hype it up for us. As far as anybody is concerned I'm a fan of Christian Bale. I loved him The Dark Knight and Terminator Salvation. I wish someone would try to stop me from entering the theater or attack me in the process.

It might give me a chance to go on National TV and mention a few other issues more personal to me.

You'll recognize the NetNinja. I'll be wearing my USA T-Shirt or my Texas Rangers Red so it' matches the tomatoes thrown at me.

Any violence displayed at the opening of this movie will CONFIRM and ratify my belief that the images shown in the movie are true and accurate.

For Japanese, if you really believe that it's not true.....don't watch it. Don't financially support it.

Personally, I'd like to be in the theater with a bunch of Japanese veterans. Maybe they'll get excited, good ol flashbacks of what happened. More excited than viagra.

OR

OR

We might see something very beautiful. We might see tears of remorse. We might see the end of denial and closure for those who were DRIVEN to commit such acts. Not every man on the front line of war is a monster. War itself is the demon that injects it's hate into the hearts of men who have never known each other.

Of all the zombie movies I've watched there has never been any cure for that condition of rage. Sometimes love cannot touch the hearts of men who are possessed by war. Perhaps we shall see the truth and the truth shall set those men free after coming face to face with the reality.

It is only the governments of men that try to deny what happened. The scars of war are indelibly set in the minds of those who were there.

So yes, crowd or no crowd, I'll watch it. I'll sit there in an audience of people who perhaps know personally from stories what happened over there.

P.S: Don't try to criticize America on this. Clint Eastwood made not just one, but two movies on the same topic. Flags of our Fathers and Letters for Iwo Jima. Every story has two sides. Where's yours Japan?
3

tokyokawasakiDec. 12, 2011 - 10:15AM JST

From my 11 year experience in Japan. The majority of Japanese will simply refuse to watch it, or they will claim it is not true if they do watch it. (i.e. they'll assume China is just trying to make Japan look bad).

I am sure it is the lack of history lessons (and truth about it's past) that upsets a lot of Chinese. I am sure China does not want more shallow apologies, I am confident they would be must happier if Japan's education board taught children all of the grizzly facts about the Japanese military history. Whether it is right or wrong, history is history and it should be taught. Learning about history is important so that similar mistakes are not made in the future.
1

アメリフセインDec. 12, 2011 - 10:19AM JST

I wonder if they will show it here in Japan.
-3

tokyokawasakiDec. 12, 2011 - 10:27AM JST

I wonder if they will show it here in Japan.

How many Japanese do you know that have seen 'The Cove' which was shown in Japan? The Chinese film might be shown in Japan, but I am sure most Japanese will just refuse to watch it.

Living in denial is a common theme...
-3

y3chomeDec. 12, 2011 - 10:29AM JST

Japanese skull on her desk sent to her by her boyfriend (google it) justifiably led Japanese soldiers to believe that they would be killed if captured.

Brutality in war is not one sided, Japanese, Chinese, American, Canadian and German soldiers all committed atrocities.

Don:t think they had such good access to GOOGLE in those days, especially in the countryside with those 56k modems, would be a nightmare just to download one photo
0

anglootakuDec. 12, 2011 - 10:37AM JST

Saying that wont see the new Batman film screen in China's movie :P
0

anglootakuDec. 12, 2011 - 10:38AM JST

Although numbers and figures claimed by the Chinese is most likely fudged to spread anti Japanese sentiment and national pride to rise..
-3

anglootakuDec. 12, 2011 - 10:39AM JST

Saying that wont see the new Batman film screen in China's movie market :P
-6

issa1Dec. 12, 2011 - 10:47AM JST

Is this movie will have the same quality of products made in china? No thanks!
4

Tyler VandenbergDec. 12, 2011 - 10:55AM JST

December 13, 1937 and the 6 weeks after that..................... In June 2007, a group of around 100 Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) lawmakers denounced the Nanjing Massacre as a fabrication..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ContestToCutDown100_People.jpg

They won't show this movie in Japan too many people like the "great" Shudo Higashinakano saying its a hoax
1

MaitakeDec. 12, 2011 - 10:55AM JST

Sounds like a good flick. Doubt it'll come to Japan though.
-9

YuriOtaniDec. 12, 2011 - 11:09AM JST

YEA! Another anti Japanese propaganda movie! This will be used to stir up Japanese hatred which includes the Okinawa People. More Japanese civilians died in the war over 5 million to the Chinese 3.5 million and 1400 Americans. How can relations improve when this crud keeps getting made? I deny nothing including the Nanjing massacre. The Japanese did horrible things of which there is no excuse. I fear films like this will promote another war with Japan. Japan lost over 10 percent of its population and yet it is not enough. What will it take for peace? Appeasement does not work and any war will have to be start by China.
-2

Tyler VandenbergDec. 12, 2011 - 11:21AM JST

@ yuriOtani

Where are you getting those numbers?? the estimated deaths in ww2 for Japan civilians are 500,000 to 1 million. and 7 to 16 million for China

easy and official Apology from the government of Japan (written and passed by the diet) and stop the text book reform saying that it never happen and the lawmakers from saying it was a hoax...........
1

ReformedBasherDec. 12, 2011 - 11:25AM JST

The Nanjing massacre happened over 70 years ago. We're talking at least 2 generations. It won't do to forget this, or any other tragedy of which there many, but considering Japan really did renounce war and really has kept gone out of it's way to avoid war for the last 7 decades, enough is enough. It's like a broken record. How about the Chinese start making movies about the Cultural Revolution instead? Otherwise, STFU.
0

ReformedBasherDec. 12, 2011 - 11:29AM JST

@Tyler Vandenberg

In June 2007, a group of around 100 Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) lawmakers denounced the Nanjing Massacre as a fabrication..

And they were idiots. But I'm tired of hearing about it and I'm sure a lot of mainstream Japanese are too.

As YuriOtani says, peace won't happen if this stuff keeps getting dragged out again and again. Should the Japanese still get upset over the Mongols? After all they had Chinese and Korean help.
2

2020hindsightsDec. 12, 2011 - 11:30AM JST

Zhang Yimou is an incredible director with a very deep understanding of and empathy for the human condition. Watch Not on Less or Travelling Alone for Thousands of Miles (starring Takakura Ken). This movie will have detractors shouting propoganda but I doubt many of them will actually bother to see it sadly.

Totally. Well said. 'Raise the Red Lantern' and 'Not One Less' are some of my all time favorite movies. Very human and moving films. He did adopt a more visual style for a while there, but totally serious movies.

YuriOtani

YEA! Another anti Japanese propaganda movie!

Actually no, I wouldn't expect so. That's not his style.
-2

just-a-guyDec. 12, 2011 - 11:31AM JST

Since the Japanese government has no sincerely apology to China and Chinese people, these movies shall never stop filming in the forseeable future!
2

2020hindsightsDec. 12, 2011 - 11:33AM JST

Is this movie will have the same quality of products made in china? No thanks!

If it's up to his previous movies standard? Yes please!
0

just-a-guyDec. 12, 2011 - 11:34AM JST

If the Hollywood filmmakers want to have their 'shares' in the Chinese movie markets, they need to make something fit the 'Chinese audience tastes' and the more movies describing the Japanese army brutality will make business goes smooth! China is a mega huge market of movies if compared with Japan! Business men talks business, they will bend on Chinese market's political condition and got their 'share'!
0

just-a-guyDec. 12, 2011 - 11:36AM JST

Japanese market is a 'dead horse' with belly upwards.....how many filmmakers feel interest to make movie about Hiroshima or Nagasaki blasts?
1

smithinjapanDec. 12, 2011 - 11:41AM JST

Of COURSE it's more than anti-Japanese propaganda, but the Japanese won't see it that way -- according to many ultra-nationalists the Rape of Nanjing never happened, even though of course they were never there. What's worse is that they claim men who WERE there and who have admitted to the atrocities and go to China to apologize and speak to the people (to try and make amends) are told they are lying or have 'foggy memories' by the government and said ultra-nationalists alike!

But once again, Japan will try and spin it so that the release of this movie victimizes them in some way. The Japan film board will, ironically (since Japan and other nations blast China for censorship) delay release in Japan, if it comes out at all, and the black trucks will go on a frenzy.

I'll go see it for sure.
0

ReformedBasherDec. 12, 2011 - 11:42AM JST

Since the Japanese government has no sincerely apology to China and Chinese people, these movies shall never stop filming in the forseeable future!

And people go on Japanese propaganda...

If the Hollywood filmmakers want to have their 'shares' in the Chinese movie markets, they need to make something fit the 'Chinese audience tastes' and the more movies describing the Japanese army brutality will make business goes smooth! China is a mega huge market of movies if compared with Japan! Business men talks business, they will bend on Chinese market's political condition and got their 'share'!

So, it's all about money. I don't see any reason to argue about that. Makes me feel sorry the victims get cheapened this way.
0

Greapper1Dec. 12, 2011 - 11:44AM JST

Japanese market is a 'dead horse' with belly upwards.....how many filmmakers feel interest to make movie about Hiroshima or Nagasaki blasts?

I think a film about Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be too emotionally scarring for many people.
0

ReformedBasherDec. 12, 2011 - 11:45AM JST

@MaboDofuIsSpicy

True of a lot of countries/peoples. I don't think this something to be happy about. But I do think it's time to give it a rest.
-4

YuriOtaniDec. 12, 2011 - 11:46AM JST

Tyler Vandenberg, I never said it was a hoax, please reread my posts. Yes that many Japanese people died. These are not Japanese numbers but from a professor at the University of Hawaii.
2

Tyler VandenbergDec. 12, 2011 - 11:56AM JST

@ YuriOtani you asked- What will it take for peace?

My answer was: easy and official Apology from the government of Japan (written and passed by the diet) and stop the text book reform saying that it never happen and the lawmakers from saying it was a hoax. (I never said you said it was a hoax just my thoughts on what it takes to start putting all of this behind us)

I wasn't commenting on the number of Japanese that died during the war, the number for China was very LOW
1

Ben_JackinoffDec. 12, 2011 - 11:58AM JST

Christian Bale denies Nanjing Massacre film is propaganda

Oscar winning actor Christian Bale defended Sunday the upcoming Nanjing Massacre film “The Flowers of War,” by China’s most famous director, Zhang Yimou, as more than an anti-Japanese propaganda film.

The headline is a bit misleading. He does not seem to be denying the film is propaganda at all. In fact, it sounds like he does acknowledge that it is a propaganda film and that he also thinks it is more than that as well. Before the thumbs down patrol come a calling, I am just stating an observation about Mr. Bale's apparent line of thinking and not making a statement about the content of the movie or facts about history.
0

just-a-guyDec. 12, 2011 - 12:01PM JST

Sure no Japanese cinema or DVD distributor will release this movie due to Japanese government political pressure, thats normal and I wont be surprised. The most important thing is the whole world outside Japan knows 'Najiang massacre' and let them understood the roots of tension in asia! What the message sent to the whole world is 'Why there is a conflict in east asia and why a conflict is looming'! China has ten times the populations of Japan and the market is big enough, it doesnt matter Japanese audiences like it or not!
-2

amerijapDec. 12, 2011 - 12:01PM JST

Not worth teasing my brain since I have seen so many cut-and-dry cultural relativistic arguments--days in and days out.

See you later!
-1

smithinjapanDec. 12, 2011 - 12:04PM JST

Anyway, while this is being played, probably to acclaim, elsewhere in the world the Japanese movie-goers can continue to kid themselves with movies like the new Yamato flick: where they were the victims of the Pearl Harbor attack.
-2

kaketamaDec. 12, 2011 - 12:04PM JST

Whether or not they create anti-Japanese propaganda films is completely up to China itself, has nothing to do with Japan. I don't care. There are a lot of movie describing the Japanese army brutally. Even Japan itself has created such movies. Some organisms in Japan may blame the movie, but I think Japanese government won't care and mention it.
1

kukuchaiDec. 12, 2011 - 12:06PM JST

i think the chinese and korean are still very angry towards the imperial army, but is a good lesson for the young japanese to learn that their ancestors did something wrong and should not follow their footsteps. i beleive the young japanese is against the war even the chinese and korean as well.
3

Patrick HattmanDec. 12, 2011 - 12:06PM JST

smith wrote:

Of COURSE it's more than anti-Japanese propaganda, but the Japanese won't see it that way -- according to many ultra-nationalists the Rape of Nanjing never happened, even though of course they were never there.

It takes an awfully broad brush to paint the Japanese entirely within ultra-nationalist thinking on the Rape of Nanking. The majority of Japanese I've met do not try to deny the atrocious events in Nanking in 1937. They do question, however, the death tolls and exactly how bad it was and why. And I can understand this. There are revisionists in both countries: Japanese who try to minimize or deny it, and Chinese who grossly distort the history all the way around. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle of both extremes.

The Japan film board will, ironically (since Japan and other nations blast China for censorship) delay release in Japan, if it comes out at all, and the black trucks will go on a frenzy.

I can agree with you on this completely. Those that would like to see it out in Japan in a timely manner will be pressured, if not threatened, not to do so. And the uyoku dantai will enjoy themselves to no end.

I think you should have more confidence in the majority of the Japanese and how they think about WWII issues like Nanking.

If you want to help further the discussion, why not take some Japanese friends first to see "Isoroku," and then find a way to view "Flowers of War" when you can?
-4

NetNinjaDec. 12, 2011 - 12:14PM JST

YuriOtani - I think you misread his comments. He said "The lawmakers". Are you a lawmaker?

Professor Who? You must have a name.

Yuri, we've come a long way. Behind us is a terrible event. You've got to convince your leaders to be open and honest. Admit the wrongdoing. Japan wasn't too far behind the Nazis in their sense of cruelty. I know it sucks. It's like having a father that failed his country and you got his last name. You have to live in the shadow of his shame.

What happened in the past doesn't make Japanese or individuals the people you are today. However, if you openly deny those events then you don't allow the other person to heal from it.

We are all intelligent enough to know that we can't take back the events of the past. We can't buy them off and we most certainly can't escape them. When you make a deal with the devil it's solid. He's going to collect. It's a deal signed in blood, when you loaded the first bullets into the guns it went into effect.

Americans don't deny Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We know what we did. If we compare the two events it's pretty much apples versus oranges. We did it to end the war. So why did you kill and starve all those Chinese? It was aggression that Japan started. You wanted to control the Pacific and expand your territory.

I think your numbers are bit low by the way. Your numbers for Chinese deaths should be much higher. If Japan's numbers are high it's because you lost the war.

We can agree on one thing though. Movies like these will galvanize a movement. There is one way to defuse the situation though.

Mr. Noda should write a formal apology, then politely get on his hands and knees and bow deeply to the floor as an act of repentance. From there I think we can move on.
-2

Al StewartDec. 12, 2011 - 12:30PM JST

so no one can do a movie about the bad things in japans history
-2

BlueWitchDec. 12, 2011 - 12:44PM JST

@kaketama

Whether or not they create anti-Japanese propaganda films is completely up to China itself, has nothing to do with Japan. I don't care. There are a lot of movie describing the Japanese army brutally. Even Japan itself has created such movies. Some organisms in Japan may blame the movie, but I think Japanese government won't care and mention it.

I want you to come clear to me and name those movies created by Japan you are talking about. I'll be expecting an answer soon.
0

techallDec. 12, 2011 - 01:04PM JST

It is the latest in a string of films and TV series from China promoting national unity against an evil Japan

But it's not propaganda?
-3

wtfjapanDec. 12, 2011 - 01:11PM JST

All you see on Japanese TV about the war is documentaries about the Abomb and its Japanese victims, when the fact remains that the Japanese imperial army killed many more civilians than the A-bombs ever will.
-10

ThaiGirlDec. 12, 2011 - 01:38PM JST

Actually, there is no physical evidence to support the Chinese claims of this massacre.
-1

just-a-guyDec. 12, 2011 - 01:41PM JST

@wtfjapan...Thats right! And thats why 'Najiang massacre' is an issue that will struggle foe many generations! It is important to educate young people in China, war is far from over! Definately not now!
-2

BlueWitchDec. 12, 2011 - 01:52PM JST

@ThaiGirl

Actually, there is no physical evidence to support the Chinese claims of this massacre.

Yes of course, just like there is NO evidence of thai troops killing a Japanese cameraman on Thailand. Oh wait, Didn't the Thai Government confirmed it to the media? Nice try though.
2

TakahiroDomingoDec. 12, 2011 - 02:05PM JST

different countries deal with their past war crimes in different ways. Turkey, to this day, denies the genocide of Armenians. Germany has not only acknowledged the horror of its past with Hitler, is has outlawed any form of praise to the monster. and unfortunately, Japan denies its pre WW2 brutal and abusive treatment of the peoples of the occupied territories. why? no one blames today's Germans for Hitler, and no one can blame today's Japanese for their past war crimes. if you are alive today, then almost surely some ancestor of yours, trying to survive, was not very nice others. and this does not make you a bad person.
-4

mikediabDec. 12, 2011 - 02:10PM JST

@ThaiGirl

Actually, there is no physical evidence to support the Chinese claims of this massacre

The evidences are plenty for those who interested in the truth, and even to those who are living in denial.Unless, in thailand you have no access to information like the people in north korea. I have been to thailand and know you have access to information, and if you can access japan today ,you can have access to information regarding nanjing massacre.
-3

smithinjapanDec. 12, 2011 - 03:02PM JST

Patrick: "It takes an awfully broad brush to paint the Japanese entirely within ultra-nationalist thinking on the Rape of Nanking."

I'm not painting all Japanese that way at all; I'm painting ultra-nationalists that way. The Japanese I refer to (ultra-nationalists and perhaps some others) will be the ones who speak out. The ones who acknowledge the massacre and Japan's fault in it will not speak out at all. But let's take a look at ThaiGirl's comment as a prime example:

"Actually, there is no physical evidence to support the Chinese claims of this massacre."

Thank you for proving my point, ThaiGirl. You ought to read a few textbooks not published by the ultra-nationlist publication co. What I'd like to see more than that is you walk up to a former Imperial soldier who was there and admits to the massacre and tell him you know he's wrong, despite it being before you were born.
2

calm downDec. 12, 2011 - 03:31PM JST

@smith firstly,a textbook is not 'physical' evidence..and secondly, that soldier will tell you what every soldier who's ever been in the same predicament will tell you 'he was under orders'..
1

ThaiGirlDec. 12, 2011 - 03:44PM JST

No, you are wrong. It is surely true that many people died at the hands of a brutal army as happens throughout history, yet there is absolutely no physical evidence to support the highly exaggerated numbers. I understand that it is comfortable to believe what you are told is true, but apply some logic to this situation. There is no physical evidence to support the claims that 300,000+ people were murdered in this city although the value of the accusation is priceless in political currency. If I am not mistaken, even the Chinese government cannot come up with names to support a small percentage of the number. Repeatedly saying something is a fact does not make it a fact; come up with some facts other than government textbooks and trumpeting the results of your crackerjack war tribunals.
-2

oldsannoDec. 12, 2011 - 03:49PM JST

http://www.japanfocus.org/-David-Askew/1729

New Research on the Nanjing Incident

The three schools – Illusion, Middle-of-the-Road, and Great Massacre Schools – are well established in Japan, and this categorisation will therefore continue to be used when discussing the debate there. However, in analysing the debate both within and especially outside Japan, these categories are arguably misleading. I believe that a better way would be to divide the various positions between the serious ‘historians’ and the ‘myth-makers’

There is another set of issues that, to my mind, somewhat surprisingly remains unresearched and unanalysed. So much heat has been generated over the question of numbers, that the question of explaining the Nanjing Incident within the context of the early stages of the Sino-Japanese War has been overlooked. Was the experience of Nanjing qualitatively and/or quantitatively different to that of other Chinese cities that fell to the Japanese, and if so why? There were not comparable massacres each time the Japanese took a city. So why at Nanjing? A possible factor is that Japanese high command learned some lessons from Nanjing and took steps to prevent it later.

In this paper, I have attempted to shed some light on the state of research of the Nanjing Incident today.

If you're interested in this subject you might want to read this.
-2

tokyokawasakiDec. 12, 2011 - 03:53PM JST

@ThaiGirl: Actually, there is no physical evidence to support the Chinese claims of this massacre.

So the countless European witnesses, photographs, admissions from officers and photos' do not count as evidence? Read this and educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
0

USNinJapan2Dec. 12, 2011 - 04:16PM JST

I'll hold off until the Chinese release a film about the Great Leap Forward. I prefer movies with happy endings... : )
1

BurakuminDesDec. 12, 2011 - 05:35PM JST

I'm looking forward to this film. It would be awesome if it does grab the Oscar for best foreign language film too. I have warmed to Mr Bale since I first saw him in American Psycho (which I thought was abysmal). Let's just hope it does get released in Japan - even if only at a few independent cinemas - and that the ultra-right terrorists here don't use thuggery - ala The Cove's showing - to intimidate and threaten theatre goers.
1

calm downDec. 12, 2011 - 05:55PM JST

Nice link oldsanno..I'm very wary of anything in wikipedia,it would be the last place I go for creditable information.
-1

tmarieDec. 12, 2011 - 06:07PM JST

So is this going to end up like "The Cove" where crazy right wingers harass places that want to show the film? Doubt I'll be able to watch it here....

More than happy for China to make these movies as long as they are unbiased. I doubt it is - but then again, no one can makes claims that Japanese movies are unbiased. This might lead to more right-wing issues or it could actually get some of the people in this country to take another look at all the BS they've been fed by their government and school history books about them being the victims of WWII.
-2

oldsannoDec. 12, 2011 - 06:30PM JST

Repeatedly saying something is a fact does not make it a fact;

Excellent post ThaiGirl!
-3

Kentaro75Dec. 12, 2011 - 07:07PM JST

This film will be all more of bully chinas' lies and propagandas. Christian Bale, too terrible actor, corraboration with communist china film makers. This film will not be popular in most countries, only countries who like to keep bullying Japanese, probably USA, Austrlalia two koreas and EU. My friends family and I will be watching a true version of this story when Japanese film is released, backing by Ishihara Shintaro - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truth_about_Nanjing < http://www.nankinnoshinjitsu.com/>
2

anglootakuDec. 12, 2011 - 07:14PM JST

Chinese also seeking compensation money really..
-3

valentineshighDec. 12, 2011 - 07:28PM JST

all these people expecting japan to make an official apology against their war crimes... let me ask, how many of you are americans? show me a handful of decent american war films where american soldiers ARENT portrayed as the divinely-sanctioned saviours of the universe and then maybe i will take you seriously.
4

NessieDec. 12, 2011 - 07:37PM JST

all these people expecting japan to make an official apology against their war crimes... let me ask, how many of you are americans? show me a handful of decent american war films where american soldiers ARENT portrayed as the divinely-sanctioned saviours of the universe and then maybe i will take you seriously.

Platoon, Thin Red Line, Born on the 4th of July, Apocalypse Now, Casualties of War, Catch 22, Dr. Strangelove, Fail Safe, Heaven and Earth, MASH...
1

NessieDec. 12, 2011 - 07:44PM JST

wonder if Zhang and Bale will get together and do one on China's 'involvement' with Tibet next .

About the heroic liberation of this downtrodden Himalayan region of China from the inveterate capitalist-roader, Tenzin Gyatso (a.k.a., the Dalai Lama)?
5

Blair HerronDec. 12, 2011 - 07:54PM JST

Just for your information, Nanking Incident is written almost all Japanese middle/high school textbooks. I have a high school textbook right here and it says, "南京事件：日本軍は市内外で略奪・暴行を繰り返したうえ、多数の中国人一般住民（婦女子をふくむ）および捕虜を殺害した。・・・"(not much in detail. 13 lines, no pictures). (About Atomic-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not much in detail, either, 4 lines with two pictures.) All events are written quite briefly since Japanese students learn Japanese history starting Jomon-jidai (13,000years ago) up to today (usually taking 1 year on Japanese history class). The contents are quite plain. It all depends on the teachers how much time they spend on certain events. Cram school type of schools teach kids to memorize everything, 日教組(kind of left-wing) type of schools teach differently.
-2

PokeDec. 12, 2011 - 07:58PM JST

I'll check this movie out when I can and judge it on its merits as a film. Historically, its pretty clear to most that atrocious things happened in Nanjing--maybe its not as well known as the Holocaust, but its no longer or a forgotten holocaust or unknown event...even in Japan. I don't think a film needs to be made just to publicize that Nanjing massacre, unless it can add something new to our understanding of that history and the human condition. This one might, or it might just be an interesting watch. That said, even the possibility that this is nationalist PRC propaganda should be troubling. Part of it is about selection...Nanjing happened, but as others here have pointed out, so have a lot of nasty things in Tibet and elsewhere on the Chinese side; Zhang Yimou and his like are not rushing to make a film that might be unflattering to China, make them question their government and their national solidarity--even if that might be more significant in the present day. He's not that brave, and what can we expect. But, honestly, in 2011 I am much less concerned about Japan, imperial or otherwise, and a bit more wary of the billions of highly nationalist Chinese living under an autocratic regime that controls what they can know and say, who are always searching for an external enemy to help bring them together.
-2

oldsannoDec. 12, 2011 - 08:09PM JST

allow Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences members to decide whether or not China’s submission for Best Foreign Language Picture deserves an Oscar nomination.

Here's a link where you can view the other films. list http://movie-on.blogspot.com/2011/09/2012-oscar-foreign-language-film.html trailers http://storytellertrailers.blogspot.com/search/label/Oscar12

Since the members liked The Cove("it's a case of (mostly) 'white men saving cute dolphins from yellow men" by Ilan Kapoor) they probably will like this.

But they like money and

There is currently a quota of about 20 foreign movies allowed into China every year on a revenue-sharing basis, although overseas studios prefer flat fees as a big hit can make more money. This means a lot of countries are fighting over the small number of slots -- France won six of the 20 slots last year, for example. A further 40 films per year can be imported on a flat-fee basis.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118034341?refCatId=13
1

browny1Dec. 12, 2011 - 08:20PM JST

Kentaro75 - are you suggesting backing by Ishihara makes it the truth?

After all he recently decscribed the great earthquake tragedy as heavens punishment for wrongdoers.

His personal viewpoints on the Nanking tragedy should be considered as worthy as a grain of salt.
3

China SailorDec. 12, 2011 - 08:50PM JST

@Tyler Vandenberg

@ yuriOtani

Where are you getting those numbers?? the estimated deaths in ww2 for Japan civilians are 500,000 to 1 million. and 7 to 16 million for China

easy and official Apology from the government of Japan (written and passed by the diet) and stop the text book reform saying that it never happen and the lawmakers from saying it was a hoax...........

Completely agree with you, but I would also add, that nobody blames the Japanese of today for committing these atrocities, you would be lucky to find a handful of people still living today, that were actually involved in any of those atrocities, but rather, the voracity and the ends to which they go to deny or explain away any act which paints Japan's war time behavior as anything less than an innocent victim, caught in the maelstrom of western aggression.

And when confronted with hard evidence, that can't be dismissed away, their argument is always, "Well America did it too..." Huh...? LOL...

Anyway, Japan could take take all the wind out of China's sails, once and for all, if they just built a few memorials to the victims of their (Japanese) aggression, you know, like the way Germany has memorials to the victims of the Holocaust... But no... You won't find any memorials, except to themselves, as in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in a kind of halo of righteousness of what the world did to Japan... (but void of what Japan did to the world, like it never happened...)

This should be required reading for all Japanese:

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/17/opinion/17iht-edsteve.t.html
-1

medwaygarageDec. 12, 2011 - 08:54PM JST

Just wondering,did 'City of Life and Death' get a Japanese release ? ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKEghDWe5SM

I see that the Japanese refused to return the body parts of the dissected Chinese prisoners from Unit 731,earlier this year [body parts were sent to Tokyo and hurriedly buried on the site of a medical school];

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/21/japan-excavates-site-human-experiments

Germany faced up to it's wartime past, why can't Japan !
-1

gonemadDec. 12, 2011 - 09:21PM JST

It's sad that so many commenters here have nothing else to say than finger-pointing. This is a film about the Nanjing Massacre and not about world history. And just because it comes from China and fits to the official propaganda doesn't automatically make it a bad film. Although the background is a historical event, the film is fiction after all and as such will never present a balanced view. I hope Japanese cinemas will have the courage to show the film.
-6

Kentaro75Dec. 12, 2011 - 10:01PM JST

There is no prove "Nanjing massacre" ever happened. It is usual china lies and western country bullies. Anti-Japanese racism again.

Kentaro75 - are you suggesting backing by Ishihara makes it the truth?

Ishihara-sensei is popular because he speaks truly to Japanese. on issues of Nanjing and many more.
-2

herefornowDec. 12, 2011 - 10:09PM JST

As YuriOtani says, peace won't happen if this stuff keeps getting dragged out again and again. Should the Japanese still get upset over the Mongols? After all they had Chinese and Korean help.

Reformed -- that's funny, neither you or Yuri expressed similar sentiments just yesterday about the Japanese movie about Yamamoto. That was not "stuff...getting dragged out again and again". In fact, Yuri defended it. But since this is China, telling about Japanese atrocities, it is unnecessary propaganda -- right?
1

Pukey2Dec. 12, 2011 - 10:15PM JST

medwaygarage:

Taken from your Guardian link:

Leading members of the unit were secretly granted immunity from prosecution in return for giving US occupation forces access to years of biological warfare research. Some went on to occupy prestigious positions in the pharmaceutical industry, health ministry and academia.

Thank you, America!
2

BlueWitchDec. 12, 2011 - 10:25PM JST

@Kentaro75DEC. 12, 2011 - 07:07PM JST

This film will be all more of bully chinas' lies and propagandas. Christian Bale, too terrible actor, corraboration with communist china film makers. This film will not be popular in most countries, only countries who like to keep bullying Japanese, probably USA, Austrlalia two koreas and EU. My friends family and I will be watching a true version of this story when Japanese film is released, backing by Ishihara Shintaro - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheTruthabout_Nanjing < http://www.nankinnoshinjitsu.com/>

Your post lost credibility as soon as you said Christian Bale is a terrible actor, which is nowhere near the truth. Have you seen his film "Munich"? Spreading false statements is not nice.
1

jianadarenDec. 12, 2011 - 10:32PM JST

@YuriO

What will it take for peace?

Are Japan and China still at war?
2

FadamorDec. 12, 2011 - 10:39PM JST

There is no prove "Nanjing massacre" ever happened. It is usual china lies and western country bullies. Anti-Japanese racism again.

LOL. It's that "we're right and everybody else is wrong" attitude that got Japan into all its difficulties in the first half of the 20th century. Don't tell me it's resurfacing again! While I have no doubt that China has inflated its claims regarding the massacre, I have no trouble believing a massacre happened based on the Japanese Army's actions against civilians during the WWII years.

As for all the "dredging up ancient history" comments: It IS history and they have every right to make a movie about it. When movies came out in the U.S. about government-sanctioned slavery prior to the conclusion of the American Civil War, there was no huge outcry from Americans to the tune of, "We don't do that anymore! Stop trying to incite unrest!" Japan should act similarly. Hopefully they have learned from their past mistakes and will vow to not let something similar happen again.
1

CrazyJoeDec. 12, 2011 - 11:00PM JST

In spite of the atrocities committed by the Japanese Imperial Army, I do respect the Chinese who became foster parents for the many Japanese children left behind after the war.
1

Patrick SmashDec. 12, 2011 - 11:51PM JST

Thaigirl, there is plenty of evidence to support a massacre, but you're right, not in those numbers. I am also sure that these figures are vastly exaggerated for propaganda purposes.

Mind you, anyone looking to Ishihara for the truth should walk past the movie theatre, turn left and enter the hospital just up the road on the right-hand side, where there may be people who can help them.
2

gomoneyDec. 13, 2011 - 12:54AM JST

To be fair,Mr Zhang and Mr Bale should come around to make a factual film on Communist Party Chairman Mao's culture revolution atrocity on it's own people.
2

FadamorDec. 13, 2011 - 01:04AM JST

To be fair,Mr Zhang and Mr Bale should come around to make a factual film on Communist Party Chairman Mao's culture revolution atrocity on it's own people.

To be fair, Mr. Zhang would probably face arrest if he tried to film that movie. Mr. Bale would probably be all-to-happy to work in another historical film regardless of the subject.
1

Patrick HattmanDec. 13, 2011 - 01:10AM JST

Those who believe that the Japanese military was incapable of atrocities towards tens of thousands at Nanking in 1937 like to keep the focus on this horrible incident, and keep it away from actions similar in scale committed against people in Manila in 1945 as the islands were being liberated, as there is plenty of first-hand evidence confirming what out-of-control Japanese military did there.

I guess they can say that if China exaggerates, if not lies, about some parts of the history of Japan's war of aggression against them in the 1930s and 1940s then ALL things China claims should be doubted for veracity.

As I said before, the truth at Nanking in 1937 probably lies somewhere between the wildest claims of the Japanese deniers and the Chinese propagandists.

The Nanking Numbers Game will continue unabated for the foreseeable future.
1

notasapDec. 13, 2011 - 01:17AM JST

First all countries have their dark history, which their current populations do their best to ignore. Having said that, the Japanese population, by and large, do seem to be more prone to seeing Japan as the victim of World War II rather over seeing it as an antagonist. The reasons are manifold, chiefly I would say it is because of how the war ended, with the nuking of two Japanese cities; an undeniably horrible event. But the heavy hand of the Imperial Japanese Army should not be ignored and films like this do a good job of exposing to the light of day a dark history that many want to forget. But is focusing on events like the Rape of Nanking or the Bataan Death March or the massacre of Chinese population of Singapore (25K killed over a few days after the Brits surrendered) examples of selective outrage? I mean Mao killed 40,000,000 people, all Chinese from 1949-75. This is many times the total number of Chines killed by Japanese during the whole of period of fighting. Yet somehow the Chinese seem to focus on the Rape of Nanking and other war time atrocities. Could it be, that such events and the anti-Japanese sentiment in Korea, a much more justified sentiment I might add, are really tools of nationalism, used by the various states to keep local population’s anger targeted on things outside of the country instead of on current problems that their current leaders are failing to address? Be ware of selective outrage! It usually masks some deeper issue and rarely does justice to the event that folks are getting all upset about. One way Japan could confront this is to open itself up and expose its sins in public. Teach the whole history in schools and make official apologies, though I would suggest stopping short of any reparations.
-3

notasapDec. 13, 2011 - 01:23AM JST

I would like to add that likewise the denial of such horrible events is a tool of nationalism. The events in question are ultimately cheapened by those seeking to make political hay. It is all rather sad, for without facing the past one can never really prepare for the future.
1

Patrick HattmanDec. 13, 2011 - 01:41AM JST

@notasap:

Teach the whole history in schools

The Education Ministry doesn't approve just one text for each class level teaching history in Japan's schools. They approve several and there is choice. When a text is chosen that offends enough people for its treatment of the war, people make their voices heard and draw attention to it to ensure that a healthy debate is held. I can't believe China has anything remotely similar for its textbook approval process for schools. And, anyway, I don't think Japan's collective left-leaning, to put it mildly, public school teachers go out of their way to teach WWII history in a way to make right-wing nationalists happy, let alone proud.

I would suggest stopping short of any reparations.

Japan made mutually-agreed-upon payments to a number of Asian nations that it ravaged in the 1930s and 1940s. It helped some like S. Korea with economic development from the mid 1960s, although it ignored what became individual claims by individuals later. (The S. Korean government didn't seem too concerned about this 50 years ago, so they bear some part of the blame too.)

China, on the other hand, chose ODA from Japan over the past few decades, and has been compensated at a very large number to date by Japan. (Japan's Foreign Ministry has tabulated all payments to other Asian nations since the 1950s as ODA, and not in any way as "war reparations," IIRC.)

Has Japan made amends to the satisfaction of its victims? I'd say no. Will Japan ever do so? I'd say no again. Will some part of the Japanese population always play the victim card? Of course.

So he we are in the second decade of the 21st century and things don't seem to have changed much, if at all, since I first lived in Japan in 1990.

Therefore, we should prod all sides in the direction of living now and not so much in the first half of the 20th century. The stubborn ones on both sides will never change anyway. And in another decade just about everyone who had an active part as a civilian or military member in the times under discussion will be deceased.

In the meantime, "Flowers of War" is fine for release, just as is "Isoroku." Millions of people will see them and discuss them, in some cases in forums like this.
-1

amerijapDec. 13, 2011 - 03:50AM JST

Ishihara-sensei is popular because he speaks truly to Japanese. on issues of Nanjing and many more.

LOL. Funny. Somebody still believes in the myth that political celebrities or elites--rather than authentic historians and scholars-- are the best source of historical truth. Quite pathetic.
-2

nigelboyDec. 13, 2011 - 04:14AM JST

Actually, there is no physical evidence to support the Chinese claims of this massacre.

Don't need physical evidence to prove it's a "massacre".

"Massacre" refers to killing of civilians, intentional or unintentional, by the Axis. Similar actions conducted by the Allieds are not "Massacre" for they are the winners. (Tokyo Aerial bombings, Battle of Okinawa, Bombing of Dresden, etc.)
-4

sfjp330Dec. 13, 2011 - 04:45AM JST

The Japanese people and nation have never fully accepted responsibility for the unspeakable atrocities that they perpetrated against helpless innocent civilians during the last war. Note the comments in recent years from numerous Japanese leaders including Noda, questioning the substance of accounts of war time atrocities related by war survivors, or even whether the cruelty and brutality ever occurred at all. That is all very disturbing to Japan's neighbors. The Japanese have always sought to whitewash or excuse their acts by describing their brutality as "liberating" Asians from their colonial masters. Even today, over 50 Japanese lawmakers who respresents million of people still visit Yasukuni to pray for class A war criminals. Some Japanese, while ignoring or denying Japan's war guilt and proven war crimes between 1937 and 1945, are quite happy to accuse the U.S. of committing a war crime by dropping atomic bombs on two Japanese cities and play the victims card. Japan should feel ashamed of the annual peace declarations in those two cities because they failed to include the point of view of Japan as an aggressor in the war. There is a unfortunate pattern of intimidation in Japan, Former Nagasaski Mayor Motoshima was attacked and seriously injured by a Japanese nationalist for speaking the truth about Japan's war guilt and war crimes.

Asian countries that suffered most from Japan's brutal military aggression, such as China, are not prepared to see these important issues swept under the carpet. The continuing refusal by Japanese governments to acknowledge frankly Japan's war guilt and the appalling atrocities committed by Japan's military justifies continued attention being focused on this disturbing issue.
0

Patrick HattmanDec. 13, 2011 - 05:40AM JST

@sfjp330:

questioning the substance of accounts of war time atrocities related by war survivors

There's nothing wrong with the Japanese doing this.

or even whether the cruelty and brutality ever occurred at all

Some Japanese do this, not all of them by a mile. Those that do and attempt to whitewash history are wrong.

Even today, over 50 Japanese lawmakers who respresents million of people still visit Yasukuni to pray for class A war criminals.

I have no problem with Yasukuni from the standpoint that the great majority of those enshrined from the Meiji Restoration til the end of WWII were simply doing their duty as Japanese. The Class A criminals never should have been enshrined decades later. And there is a larger problem, to my mind, with many of the Class B and C criminals in Yasukuni.

I also have a problem-as many do-with how the history of the era is presented in the adjacent Yushukan. But this will not change. (And because of the ways that the Occupation manipulated the Tokyo Trials, many Japanese will never accept the outcomes of the trials as anything other than victors' justice, regardless of the accuracy of the verdicts in many cases.)
2

Shumatsu_SamuraiDec. 13, 2011 - 05:51AM JST

There are two issues here.

Does the film depict a real historical atrocity and war crime. Yes

Is it almost certain that this film was made for propaganda value. Yes

Just because a film addresses a historical war crime doesn't mean it isn't being used for propaganda purposes. I might be happy to take part in a film showing the repression of my ancestors, but I wouldn't if it was being created with the backing of an extremist group that locks up grannies for complaining about that group's behaviour to the authorities.
4

Shumatsu_SamuraiDec. 13, 2011 - 05:59AM JST

I also agree with notasap, in as far as China is very selective about the historical films it produces. I remember having a discussion once with a fairly bright and pleasant Chinese guy. We were discussing war films and things like the Rape of Nanjing. I asked whether it was healthy to dwell so much on things like that. He said it was necessary to get closure.

So I asked why there were no similar films about the Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution or Tiananmen protests. He said that it would re-open old wounds.

You draw your own conclusions from that conversation.
-8

sfjp330Dec. 13, 2011 - 06:19AM JST

Shumatsu_SamuraiDec. 13, 2011 - 05:59AM JST. I asked whether it was healthy to dwell so much on things like that. He said it was necessary to get closure.

How can you have a closure if Japan goverment does not acknowlege the problem? After the war, the Germans and Japanese had a different reaction to their bad behavior during the war. Most of the Germans were remorseful and guilt ridden. The Japanese immediately tried to rewrite history, and are still at it. Many Japanese opposed rewriting history, which was often quite blatant. This meddling with historical facts regularly caused problems with neighbors, especially China. But the Japanese were insistent on evading responsibility. They still are, and many Japanese really believe it. Knowing what happened in the past and understanding those events is the most important way to prevent it from happening again. The new generation should learn more about the atrocities committed during war, not to incite them to hatred, but to help them realize how and why we should prevent this kind of thing from happening ever again. Turning a blind eye to the past is the worst thing we could do. The atrocities of war are proof enough that we should avoid war at all costs. In the late 30's in Nanking, many Japanese soldiers went beyond rape to disembowel women, slice off their breasts, nail them alive to walls.
2

kazetsukaiDec. 13, 2011 - 06:35AM JST

Sad that international politics and nationalism get used and taken advantage of by leaders of the world positioning themselves in response to the inevitable "economic" policy failures that got them into power but on the verge of collapse because it "fed" only those in power. A diversion and shift of "blame" is needed by such persons or groups of person in power to avoid the collapse of their power network and loss of that power.

Interesting that such politically motivated movies are mysteriously funded and created and put to the public when the blame is needed to target the one economically sound competitor with technology and skills that dominates but helped to create that country's economic production and foundation. Good to blame such competitor as the cause of that country's ills. Much like the US - car industry blaming the Japanese auto makers.

Interesting too that "history" "modified" to get "emotional" and not "rational" response is used to target that competitor and is used to "heat up" and "cover up" the underlying intent to divert "blame" and "responsibility" from themselves. It is political rhetoric in the guise of a historical movie to divert attention from one country's impending economic disaster.
2

nigelboyDec. 13, 2011 - 06:38AM JST

They still are, and many Japanese really believe it. Knowing what happened in the past and understanding those events is the most important way to prevent it from happening again.

It hasn't happenned for over 65 years with not a single civilian killed by the hands of the Japan's military. Perhaps it's safe to say that Japan has reflected herself very well which is recognized by majority of the world nations.

Even in this Naking issue, Japan has contrasting views with scholars positioned in totally opposite sides. Hence, to simply label or characterize the entire population based on actions of a few is weak.

Finally, when people talk about Japan's past actions, they seem to always bring up the German's example when the situation is completely different. For instance, Japan was guilty more so for conducting aggressive war against the Allieds while Germany was guilty more for violating crimes against humanity. Hence, the apologies and reparations were given to individual states by Japan, while Germany were given to individual groups, per se. furthermore, since Japan was more eager to resolve this issue immediately after the war, their entrance to U.N. (1956) was much faster than that of Germany which gained entrance during the time when Japan almost completed the payment of reparations.
0

issa1Dec. 13, 2011 - 06:43AM JST

Ohhh,poor Chinese, they are so innocent !
0

Blair HerronDec. 13, 2011 - 08:15AM JST

Right after governor Ishihara said, "Nanking is China's propaganda.", the Ministry of Foreign Affairs said, "That's his personal opinion. Japanese government acknowledge that Nanking Incident occurred." (it's written on homepage of Ministry of Foreign Affairs.) When Koizumi visited Yasukuni, he said, "I acknowledge Nanking incident. Visiting Yasukuni is separate issue." Ministry of Education acknowledge the incident as you can see on all elementary/middle school textbooks. The issue of printing on the textbook is how many people were killed. Some textbooks say "many", some says "200,000", some says "200,000 to 400,000". Another issue is if they should put it "incident" or "massacre". Some textbooks say "incident", some says "massacre", and some says "incident, also called massacre". As I read all the posts here, I have an impression that some people believe ALL Japanese deny Nanking massacre. I don't know about older generation, but younger generation in Japan are taught at school that Naking incident is a fact. If young people say "Nanking massacre never happened!!!" "Ishihara-sensei is right!!!", most people see them as they are uyoku.
2

VicMOsakaDec. 13, 2011 - 09:10AM JST

just-a-guy said-- Since the Japanese government has no sincerely apology to China and Chinese people, these movies shall never stop filming in the forseeable future!

The Japanese have apologized many times, but each time the Chinese say it is not sincere.
-1

2020hindsightsDec. 13, 2011 - 09:36AM JST

There are two issues here.

Does the film depict a real historical atrocity and war crime. Yes

Is it almost certain that this film was made for propaganda value. Yes

I would doubt that. The director has no interest in propaganda. And also it is based on a book by Geiling Yan. One of her other books was made into a film: "Xui Xui: The Sent Down Girl", which was an anti-Cultural Revolution story.
-8

NetNinjaDec. 13, 2011 - 09:39AM JST

They are right. It's not sincere. The world knows your culture. You insult their intelligence when you simply bow.

Pssst. We know the word "Ishario". It's your way of apologizing DEEPLY and SINCERELY.

Get a load freighter, dock it in Tokyo Bay. With a convoy of trucks, drive directly to the Bank of Japan. Clean out all the coffers and printing plates. Load it all on a ship and send it to China with a red bow on top.

That's an apology. There's only one kind of pain Japanese understand.....money loss.
-1

kazetsukaiDec. 13, 2011 - 10:10AM JST

One movie and multiple issues, related but pertinent?

The key is... it opened an area of emotional responses that go beyond the movie itself. Obviously when governments get involved, there were and are political motivations behind such production, regardless of "official" statements. Everyone is aware of the rationale "behind" all such official statements, especially from politicians and government officials.

China now "dominates" the economic" stability" of most nations with their "extremely low priced products" and faces the criticism of nations scrutinizing their move to "dominate" and "control" the world economy by directly and indirectly "buying up" the natural resources with monies they gained from subsidizing the "extravagant consumption habits" they created all over the world. They need to "distract" the world from becoming aware of their up to now hidden power and possible intentions. What better way than becoming the "victim"?

What better way than to "use" the best media to keep people "emotionally" distracted from "rational" thought process?

That media happens to be Hollywood.... It was bought hook, sink and barrel,,,, long before this movie... by those who want to control the hearts and minds of the world and keep the world "blind" to the truth.

At least there are a few such as NHK and the Discovery channels that "try" to keep things as 'truthful" as possible...

The other media is the gaming industry.... freezing the minds of the young and old....

Who do you think *benefits * from all this?
0

smithinjapanDec. 13, 2011 - 10:26AM JST

calm down: "@smith firstly,a textbook is not 'physical' evidence..and secondly, that soldier will tell you what every soldier who's ever been in the same predicament will tell you 'he was under orders'.."

Boy, when you miss the point you miss it by miles! I never said a textbook was 'physical evidence', be it a Chinese or Japanese text. The point there is that people who have ONLY those texts to refer to (ie. students) cannot learn all the facts, even when the facts in other nations' history texts are likely skewed the opposite way (hence, they should read a few for comparison). Furthermore, my comment regarding the soldiers who go over to China to make speeches and apologize is that the government claims their apologies are based on 'poor memory' and does not recognize any of it. I have no doubt some, if not all, say 'they were under orders'; the point is they are trying to make amends in the waning years of their lives while government officials and ultra-rightists who were never there claim the men's admissions as lies.

nigelboy: "Perhaps it's safe to say that Japan has reflected herself very well which is recognized by majority of the world nations."

Save that a good number of people here don't know it happened or deny it altogether.

"For instance, Japan was guilty more so for conducting aggressive war against the Allieds while Germany was guilty more for violating crimes against humanity. "

What on earth are you talking about? Japan killed some estimated 10 MILLION across East and SE Asia leading up to and during the war, forcing nationals from India to carry supplies to build railroads before executing them, all the way down to Indonesia, not to mention sex-slaves and other human-rights violations. But hey, let me guess -- you have scholars here who deny such numbers, and who claim that all the 'comfort women' were volunteers who earned good money, and that no Imperial troops engaged in their services? (was fun to watch Abe have to rescind that statement!). As for Nanjing, again, what do you have to say about the adamant deniers?
-3

AylerDec. 13, 2011 - 10:27AM JST

Is it almost certain that this film was made for propaganda value. Yes

No, not at all. Watch some of his films and you'll realise you are wrong.
-3

nigelboyDec. 13, 2011 - 10:32AM JST

Smith,

Please do some research on the Tokyo Trials and Nuremburg Trials. Compare them especially what the accused were charged of and found guilty of.
-1

2020hindsightsDec. 13, 2011 - 11:21AM JST

Is it almost certain that this film was made for propaganda value. Yes

No, not at all. Watch some of his films and you'll realise you are wrong.

So true. I wish some of the posters here would stick to the facts. Director Zhang Yimou is a fantastic movie maker that has no interest in making propaganda. He makes beautiful films. This will be a very human story.
-4

YuriOtaniDec. 13, 2011 - 11:27AM JST

NetNinja, his name is Rudolph Joseph Rummel. His books and information is very interesting but I do not agree with him 100 percent. About the people who deny it, well it is called free speech. Germany has laws but they do it in secret. Being from Okinawa you do not have to tell me about the Japanese troops but both China and Korea are using it an an excuse. This film is going to inflame the Chinese population. It is inciting them to riot, my Yuri predication is next time the riots will kill people. Japan has made the apologies and has made reparations. If China can invade Japan they will kill us all. Japanese and Okinawa people, they have killed over 100 million people. This number is since their revolution in 1949. Yes that is China's plan for Japan, death. No apology will ever be good enough. It is not even worth trying and when the Japanese companies lose their investments it will be proof of my words.
-1

amerijapDec. 13, 2011 - 02:42PM JST

The Japanese people and nation have never fully accepted responsibility for the unspeakable atrocities that they perpetrated against helpless innocent civilians during the last war. Note the comments in recent years from numerous Japanese leaders including Noda, questioning the substance of accounts of war time atrocities related by war survivors, or even whether the cruelty and brutality ever occurred at all.

It is not ordinary Japanese citizens who failed to recognize and accept responsibility for what their nation did against their neighbors during World War II. Faulting the citizens while ignoring the existence of totalitarian state-control, which functioned in a way to fixate the citizens to a mouthpiece to a military regime and punish/execute those who attempt to oppose the regime, is simply disingenuous. It took more than 24 years for J-government to recognize the event on the surface—no J-diet members and politicians are forced to resign due to the gaffes regarding the issue after 1995. Most Japanese people are astute to know what happened in the past--some of them even got the information despite a strict control by the military regime in the wartime.

In this respect, J-government deserves the blame for a long history of obfuscation and ineptness that are reflected on any political spectacles until today.

Moreover, questioning the validity of or quality of existing account of specific event itself does not lead to denial in the end. The imperial army destroyed most of critical documents at that time—which is the very reason there are various historical accounts ranging from Chinese, US, German, Japanese perspectives. Don’t make an assumption that there’s only one answer because no one can make it.

If China can invade Japan they will kill us all. Japanese and Okinawa people, they have killed over 100 million people. This number is since their revolution in 1949. Yes that is China's plan for Japan, death

Snap it out and be realistic. Mixing up your interpretation of past history with present context like this doesn't give anything but a spectacle.
0

yasukuniDec. 13, 2011 - 07:09PM JST

>

"China now "dominates" the economic" stability" of most nations with their "extremely low priced products" and faces the criticism of nations scrutinizing their move to "dominate" and "control" the world economy by directly and indirectly "buying up" the natural resources with monies they gained from subsidizing the "extravagant consumption habits" they created all over the world."

Interesting. People used to say that about Japan a few decades ago...
2

It"S MEDec. 13, 2011 - 07:14PM JST

Got to ask.

If China is all that strong than why do they have the probs at home from workers and a reduced demand for their products from the USA, EU, etc and that is also why they now focus on emerging markets in Africa, Asia, etc.

All the info has been reported here and on CNN/BBC/etc.
-3

YuriOtaniDec. 14, 2011 - 01:34AM JST

amerijap, they were killing their own in the millions up to the 1970,s. This movie is made to get people to hate Japanese. It turns them into nonhuman things and those are easy to kill. I was not a part of any war crimes nor any of my family. To me it is history and nothing more. Today's Japan is not the Empire of Japan and nobody in power today had anything to do with the war crimes. Everyone has ancestors who were barbarians and they are not accountable for their actions. The apologies have been made the reparations made to the national governments. Again this film was made to inflame Chinese anger and passion against Japanese Nationals.
-3

lrodriguezsosaDec. 14, 2011 - 08:01AM JST

I'm sure it will be a wonderful film. But, come on Christian! It IS a propaganda film.
1

lrodriguezsosaDec. 14, 2011 - 08:34AM JST

I wonder if Japan will ever make a movie about bataan death march, nanking massacre, manila massancre, unit 731, sook ching massacre???? oops i forgot....japan were the 'victims' of the war...

The very same day when USA make a movie about Balangiga massacre, Moro Crater massacre, My Lai massacre, Dasht-i-Leili massacre, the experimentation with human beings in Costa Rica, Guantanamo tortures??? oops... I think not anytime soon.
-4

sf2kDec. 14, 2011 - 08:50AM JST

I had to look it up myself, I didn't realize Christian Bale was the kid in Empire of the Sun (1987).

Japan is going to have to realize that no one is going to forget their war time activities. The issue has never been this so much as how one moves forward. It should however in no way reflect Japan today. Much of the emotional healing has never occurred in Japan though, so continued ignorance is the only reaction. Japan has to learn to say thank you and it is an opportunity for highlighting change and friendship in the region. Asia has got to grow up sometime.
-2

lrodriguezsosaDec. 14, 2011 - 09:47AM JST

Japan is going to have to realize that no one is going to forget their war time activities.

Well, no one will forget Hiroshima & Nagasaki either!
-3

YuriOtaniDec. 14, 2011 - 10:28AM JST

lrodriguezsosa, you miss the point. This film is not done for remembrance but to shape public opinion. It will show the Japanese as mindless butchers. The tragic murders, rapes and appeal on the audience to seek revenge.
0

2020hindsightsDec. 14, 2011 - 04:59PM JST

YuriOtani

This movie is made to get people to hate Japanese. It turns them into nonhuman things and those are easy to kill.

This film is not done for remembrance but to shape public opinion.

You seem so sure, so where is your source on this? Interviews with the director?

If you have seen films by the same director, you will see that his motivations aren't propaganda. They are driven by passion and art. He would stoop so low - it would be an anathema to him.
2

2020hindsightsDec. 14, 2011 - 05:01PM JST

Sorry I meant he wouldn't stoop so low.
1

nihoncriticDec. 15, 2011 - 12:48AM JST

Will watch the movie and compare it with City of Life and Death. I read some reviews and many said that the Flowers of War told a very generalized story with more attention paid to visual effects. I think the City of Life and Death was an exceptional movie, it did not shy away from showing atrocities but most importantly, for a film created and tailored to a Chinese audience, the director Chuan Lu made a very solid attempt at humanizing the Japanese rather than paint them as one dimensional savages. The protagonist (the main Japanese officer) ends up partaking in many of the atrocities but there is always that moment of reflection which is being expressed. I think what makes a portrayal of an enemy infinitely more powerful is to observe his thought process and paint them as human beings rather than some savage animal. This portrayal will really bring out the horror as how the human race can be capable of great and also terrible things.
3

OssanAmericaDec. 15, 2011 - 05:30AM JST

Any Chinese movie about WWII is a propaganda film. Proof is that there have been films that didn't contain ENOUGH propaganda and the director was chastised or worse. Remember Devils at the Doorstep? Christan Bale either doesn't pay too much attention to reality or as a party to this film simply has to tow the party line. He's not much of an actor anyway imho.
0

yasukuniDec. 15, 2011 - 08:11AM JST

>

"It will show the Japanese as mindless butchers. "

And maybe people will learn to not be mindless butchers.

Lest we forget.
2

yasukuniDec. 15, 2011 - 08:22AM JST

@Yuri Otani, have you studied the accounts of Japanese atrocities? (I don't mean books by right-wingers who try to deny everything).
-2

nstn123Dec. 15, 2011 - 09:09AM JST

War films are always one-side and far from the truth. Every single country does it. That's why I never watch them.
-1

AylerDec. 15, 2011 - 10:35AM JST

Any Chinese movie about WWII is a propaganda film.

War films are always one-side and far from the truth.

The ignorance on display here is astounding.
0

2020hindsightsDec. 15, 2011 - 10:42AM JST

OssanAmerica

Any Chinese movie about WWII is a propaganda film. Proof is that there have been films that didn't contain ENOUGH propaganda and the director was chastised or worse. Remember Devils at the Doorstep?

Really? I do remember "Devils on the Doorstep" and it was banned in China when it was released. It was also released in Japan where it got good reviews.
1

OssanAmericaDec. 15, 2011 - 08:41PM JST

2020hindsightsDec. 15, 2011 - 10:42AM JST Really? I do remember "Devils on the Doorstep" and it was banned in China when it was released. It was also >released in Japan where it got good reviews.

The Chinse director was also banned by the Chinese government from making movies for a time.
2

FugacisDec. 16, 2011 - 04:30AM JST

Can't wait to see it. Lots of people here have commented on Zhang Yimou's films, such as Raise the Red Lantern, but one that is less well known - and in my opinion is his best - is called 'To Live' (Chinese: 活到). Those saying that no one has ever written about the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution are dead wrong; one of the first things that happened when Deng Xiaoping loosened the controls on media was the profusion of "Scar Literature" - books and films about the suffering of Chinese people under Mao. To Live is a story of one Chinese family throughout three decades of Communist China, roundly criticising the failed promises and the excesses of the Communist regime. It was a courageous work, and for it he was banned from film-making for two years, and the film was banned in China. So don't say that Zhang is a mere propagandist.

I trust that the film will be excellent, and good on all those participating in it. If Japan will not acknowledge the horrific nature of its wartime record, then it's up to the rest of the world to make film upon film, book upon book, impassioned argument upon impassioned argument. Japan's nationalistic elite would love nothing better than for memory of their atrocities to fade and die, so that Japan can maintain its image as a poor victim in the war. Let's not let the world forget what they did.
-1

OssanAmericaDec. 16, 2011 - 05:53AM JST

And fueling China's nationalism feeds their territorial anmd miltary expansionisty agenda that has made trhem a threat to all of Asia. Yes, good thinking there. As long as China re,mains an authoritarian one party dictatorship that censors and controls what it's people make produce and watch, they need no help at all from anyone else.
0

NetNinjaDec. 16, 2011 - 08:22AM JST

@YuriOtani.

You know, people often say "fight fire with fire". I still think water works best. Change your domestic policies here in Japan to reflect the positive claims you make about Japanese people and maybe more will side with you.
-1

NetNinjaDec. 16, 2011 - 11:34AM JST

WOAH!!! Hot Follow-Up Story. Did you guys miss this??

Christian Bale attacked in China!!! http://edition.cnn.com/2011/12/15/world/asia/china-bale-activist/index.html?hpt=hp_c1
-2

OssanAmericaDec. 17, 2011 - 03:16AM JST

I can't stop laughing...
0

WilkeDec. 18, 2011 - 10:52AM JST

Listen. Don't mention the war. I did once, but I think I got away with it...
3

http://danieldiaztecles.blogspot.com/Dec. 19, 2011 - 03:14AM JST

http://danieldiaztecles.blogspot.com/I do not understand this movie, nor do I think is good at this time. Japan goes through hard times and must be supported.
-1

stx53550Dec. 19, 2011 - 08:43AM JST

Go chrisitan!