Do English teachers at schools have to be native speakers? Can non-native English speakers do just as well or better?
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118 Comments
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0
chotto
Of course, but they need to be able to fluently speak the language that they teach, regardless of the language.
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thepro
If Japan's economy doesn't improve I reckon we will start to see more non-native English teachers employed at lower wages
0
dammit
Yes they should have to be native speakers. Despite the obvious disparity in accents and spelling. (Or at least have spent long enough living in English speaking countries to be fluent conversationally.)
Anyone who doubts this has obviously never tried to have a conversation with someone who's spent their life living in a non English speaking country (like Japan) and claims to be fluent. Since when has the word Autumn needed the n pronounced? Only when extended, Autumnal for example. Try explaining that to some of the Japanese English teachers here and they would even have trouble understanding your explanation. They often can't pronounce English words without using the katakana version too, even English often gets extra bits to become Ingurisshu, how can you teach English if you can't even pronounce the word? You need to be able to converse fluently to be able to teach others to converse. Simple as that.
It may seem that for younger kids the fluency of the teacher is irrelevant, but even at that stage the bad things stick. So you get kids screaming 'harou' and 'ai rabu yuu' at foreigners. It's hard to break habits like that, so it's not surprising when they still think that's how to pronounce it as adults.
I'm not suggesting that education in foreign languages in other countries is any better, because I know mostly they're equally awful. I'm simply stating my opinion on the question asked.
0
Papigiulio
I honestly think its a bad idea, unless they speak the language fluently. There is a few French, German and Italian English teachers out there that dont speak fluent English and end up teaching wrong pronounced English to Japanese (thus with an accent).
0
bdiego
No and no. This is like asking if illegal immigrants can pick fruit, then asking if they should be. Can is different than should.
0
neverknow2
Yeah and they don't even need to be a teacher in their own country. They can just be some nerd who worked in a bar but then came to Japan and found out that all of asudden he is 'cool'. That's all you need to be an English teacher.
0
Betting
Difficult question I think. Native speakers of English are in the minority these days, that is undeniable. And the effect of non-native speakers on English is very large too.
If you are a non-native but have studied English grammar you would probably know more about English than the average teacher of English here in Japan. And knowing grammar is absolutely essential to communication at higher levels.
And since most students of English will never get to the highest levels of communication, why can't non-native speakers teach the language as long as they meet certain requirements.
I remember years ago, a native English speaker I knew from a certain country insisted that, "should've" (e.g. You should've bought the thing while it was cheap) was just short for, "should of". In that case the teacher grew up having not studied English and ended up passing along their own bad habits to the student. Actually the student was quite high level so I think they knew the mistake, but were too polite to correct the teacher.
Anyway, this question can be endlessly debated, but I think that the schools and students need to decide upon attainable goals and find teachers that are appropriate to that level. No need to get a teacher with an masters in English if they only need some language to help with tourist shopping.
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ukguyjp
It's really a moot point since the vast majority of Japanese language teachers are either a) too shy b) have poor speaking ability or c) are professionally incapable of teaching speaking/communication skills.
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ratpack
Depends if you want to learn the language listening to a person speaking English with a middle eastern / asian / european accent. I have worked at a school once in Miyagi where a few of the teachers had heavy indian, indonesian, iranian and german accents.....umm that school lasted as long as a cookie in the hands of a kid.
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ratpack
opps my bad....should have deleted the 'have' in there.
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DenDon
there is no one correct version of English. ENL, ESL and EFL are all very different. Native speakers of English are a minoroty
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LostinNagoya
No, IMO. I have heard English native speakers making mistakes that are acceptable (using among instead of amongst, for instance) or misspelling written words (looser instead of loser, as sometimes we see here on JT). I don't mind that, but what really annoys me is that sometimes you see a non-native speaker who can share his own ideas on politics, arts, society, science in an almost perfect English denied a job because a native speaker who can't speak anything but "whassup" but has the talent of, well, being a native speaker got this because some schools give priority to native speakers. Damn, I met a nice Canadian guy, who couldn't write "throughout" without missing one of the letters...
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papasmurfinjapan
It depends on what country the non-native speaker is from. If from Japan, then I'd say yes they can do a better job, especially with young kids.
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limboinjapan
Sorry as a father and someone who grew up in a bilingual country and done my share of "English" teaching (including ALT) there is noway the present Japanese English teacher can teach spoken communication in English, many of them are amazing at written and grammar but couldn't put more then 2 words together in a comprehensible sentence.
Thus the need (for now) of proper use of a native English ALT (as certain Nordic countries did so well that today they no longer need them)but unfortunately the few really native ALT left are not being used correctly and now with cheap outsourcing we now have ALTs that are from dubious places claiming native English status.
I just meet the new ALT at my son's junior high (his first year) my daughter was at the same school for 3 years and up until last year they had a Canadian, American and British but the woman (ALT) I just met, I could not understand her, her accent was ridiculous, I wondered if I would understand her better if she was speaking Hindi.
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limboinjapan
yes I know I can't type and can't shut off the auto-correct, it should be "more than 2 words"
0
KaptainKichigai
This question is nonsense. Which "English Schools"? What fluency level of English? Language lessons or skills lessons? Learning a level one foreign language is like joining a gym. Where are you now in your training and what are the results you want? After answering those questions there are 20 different ways to get the results you are looking for. Also, as the world globalizes and English is being used more and more, it is becoming harder to define what constitutes "Native" level. I have met "non" native speakers with a better grasp on English than many of my Southern USA "native" speakers. And just because you speak English at a native fluency level doesnt mean you know a thing about how to "teach" it to someone else.
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5SpeedRacer5
Look at everyone struggle to adopt the same prejudices as a typical kyoiku mama. We all know it depends on the person. There is no rule whatsoever. Arnold Schwarzenegger is not a native speaker. Michael Tyson is. Yogi Berra was. Einstein wasn't.
A teacher is someone who must apply a wide range of skills and experience to elicit some kind of development in a learner. If they have the skills and experience, they can probably do a good job.
I know of a school that hired some PhD candidates from non-native countries. They were smart, energetic, interesting, and physically attractive people who had a lot of experience as English learners. They were definitely worth what they were paid, and it was a lot less than a Japanese native English major would have earned. They did not have perfect English, but I have watched native speaking Heads of English Departments misspell words and make up English usage rules in front of university classrooms.
I can think of many situations in which I would prefer a non-native speaker over a native speaker as an English instructor. Your mileage may vary.
0
one2one
Non-natives who are fluent are great or even better for this job.But with all the English Teachers in Japan,Native or Not,do their students really get it?I mean,where are these learners.I would like to hear them converse in English.Only then I will give thumps up.
0
cleo
Where the teacher was born isn't as important as the degree of fluency. Some non-native speakers are better than some native.
As others have pointed out, there is no such thing as a standard English accent, and native speakers come in a wide variety of flavours. So long as it's understandable, it should be OK. And in any case a good teacher will use video, audio etc to expose her students to a wide range of native and non-native accents. Most of the people most of the students will need to converse with will likely be non-native English speakers, so they need to be able to cope with different accents and less-than-perfect grammar.
0
Frungy
In theory the only question should be level of fluency as determined by some neutral measuring instrument. Unfortunately I couldn't pass the TOEIC test in Japan even though I'm a native English speaker simply because most of the questions are.... drumroll in Japanese! Yes, an English test that's not in English!
This pretty much sums up the entire problem with the Japanese system of teaching English. Without native-level teachers to drive change there won't be any, and the current system of relegating native teachers to either cram schools or "assistant language teacher" positions means that there are no native voices in any position to influence how their language is being taught in Japan.
Instead the way that English is being taught is being decided by Japanese English teachers who were taught English in a classroom where English was hardly ever spoken, who wrote their English examinations in Japanese, and who have been teaching their students English for decades by barely ever actually speaking English.
I feel sorry for the Japanese English teachers, they're caught in a vicious circle where they aren't exposed to sufficient English to maintain their own skill level, and so they either don't feel confident enough to speak English in the classroom or just aren't able to speak English in the classroom, and so the cycle repeats endlessly. Fluent English speakers need to be injected into the system at a level where they can actually push gently for positive change. The current "assistant language teacher" system just isn't working, but everywhere you look there are barriers to native speakers getting licensed as teachers, from the TOEIC test in Japanese to the university courses on teaching English being held in Japanese. Someone somewhere in government needs to wake up and smell the coffee. This isn't going to fix itself on its own.
0
pointofview
Depends what the students prefer.
0
whiskeysour
**I would hire non-native English speaker, if their English skills is equal (in par ) to a natve english speaker. **
Japanese English Teachers are the main problem Some not all of them are subpar. They lack motivation and blooming idiots come to mind when i think about them. But they should make learning a language more interesting.
From my experience working for private & public elementary and junior high schools. I can tell you that it's getting worse. That's why Japanese parents send their children to a native speaking English School. I've seen an influx of kids during after school hours. During English ( public & private schools ) class it's really hard for a student to learn because alot of kids that do not want to learn english distracts the kids that want to learn. I've ran into dozens of Japanese teachers that pronounce the words wrong or have no clue what they are talking about.
Usually every public school has an English Coordinator or supervisor. Usually the supervisor visited a foreign country some years ago and that's the only qualification to become a English Coordinator. Some schools check their TOEIC or English Scores from college/uni. And that again determines they should be the Engl. Coordinator. I observed the idiots,clowns & comedians running the English department at my school (schools I previously worked for). All of them have no insight, determination, motivstion, improvising skills, and lack creative skills. Every time I suggest a new idea it's shot down or they steal my idea and use it for themselves and acted as they created it.Their **TEST SCORES ** in TOEIC was very high but average everyday usage of English was completely horrible. Japanese English teachers don't travel much outside of their country.
Why do you think they have ALT's & JET's at every public school in Japan. Because the English teachers destroy the english language.
I choose this profession because I like helping kids. But the idiots and ego not-it-alls always get in the way of progress. It's a tough world being a English Teacher in Japan. But I hang in there for the kids. I understand the bofoon percentage is very high. Usually against me all the time, but 1 day I will triumph over the **bafoons **running the system.
0
manfromamerica
Nerds work in bars where you're from? I thought they were usually spending all their time on their computers, chatting online, and posting to BB.
0
kazan
Yes, absolutely. I agree with everything being said. A lot of English teachers are hopelessly bad at everyday English (I worked for almost a year with a JHS teacher who seriously couldn't speak English. At all. But she was still teaching it). My teachers this year are loads better, but they still make some very simple mistakes that a native speaker would never make (today, for example, my teacher said the date correctly but wrote it as April 21th).
Beyond that, though, what a native English speaker brings to the classroom is not only language but culture. One of the teachers at my JHS has only been to an English speaking country on a two-week high school trip, and was blown away when I told her that American students (gasp) don't clean their classrooms. Quite simply, because the Japanese curriculum is so obsessed with teaching about Japan, students learn little about anywhere else. A native English speaker can expose them to a different culture and help students become more interested about the world outside of Japan.
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LostinNagoya
I don't know why you are talking about Japanese teachers as non-native speakers. They are very native to Engrishiyu, and as fas as I know it's quite different from English:
English: the language spoken in UK-NZ, Australia, US. Engrishyu: the language Japanese people speak, besides Japanese. They are bilingual!
0
brotokyo
@cleo
Curious sentence. "Her" stands out so very loudly. I remember when they began addressing the "sexism" question in language, so many years ago. Isn't it just as meaningful to simply say "to expose students" and not say either "her" or "his" in your statement above? After reading your post I get this unpleasant feeling that you believe only females can be "good" teachers.
0
Disillusioned
This question should be: are native English speakers desperate enough to scramble for any pitence paying teaching position and degrade their intellegemce to put up with the raciest and biased work environment of a native English speaking tape recorder? Native English speakers don't speak good textbook English. I seen it heaps of times ;P
0
HesKun
I've been trying to get a part-time gig as an English teacher, but since I am not a native speaker, I have a hard time finding one. I am Dutch, have a Masters Degree in Japanese language and culture, so I could explain to Japanese people in their own language how something works, grammatically or semantically, and yes, I consider myself fluent in (U.S.) English. I did and internship in the States and been mistaken for a native speaker several times, but somehow I never seem to qualify over here.
As a non-native speaker, I find it easier to explain the why-and-how of a foreign language compared to a native speaker who would say:'that's just the way it is'. That applies to the Japanese language as well by the way.
0
kurumazaka
Certainly true in my case. My Japanese wife busts me for grammar errors frequently. As long as the pronunciation is passable, non-native speakers are often stronger on grammar (I forgot what a past participle is years ago!) I have no problem with accented english (who says Cali is the world standard?) Living in NYC for 12 years I heard countless different accents. However, there is nothing less intelligible than katakana english. As long as they don't speak katakana english, non-native is fine.
0
Frungy
Kurumazaka: Yes, I also frequently make errors in my grammar. Look at this sentence, "English as she is spoke". Grammatically it is correct, however it sounds strange and you'd never find it coming out of the mouth of anyone but an English Professor. Yes, I make mistakes, however my English is always understandable and I can get an idea out in under a minute, whereas the grammar-nazi Japanese English teachers have the students so busy checking grammar rules and double-guessing themselves that they're lucky if they can stammer out a single sentence in under 10 minutes. In short, knowing the rules of English doesn't mean you can speak it; only practice and exposure to lots of English allows students to achieve true fluency, both of which are absent from the typical Japanese English classroom.
0
MeAndroo
Starting next year, per MEXT, 5th and 6th grade elementary school kids will need to have 35 total hours (1 hour/week) of 外国語活動. Typically the language chosen is English, but this leaves the door open for anything. I teach at 3 public elementary schools, and I can say that not only do most NOT have dedicated teachers (for example, in my prefecture, only 2 cities have their ES currently being taught each week), most do not have English coordinators or teachers posessing any kind of proficiency in the language.
But that doesn't matter at this level. Our goal isn't to pound English rules into the heads of these children (that's what JHS and HS are for!), it's to get them to broaden their horizons, see past a person's appearance, and do something new. I'm a 3rd generation Asian American from Los Angeles. I've studied Japanese for a total of about 4 years, and speak well enough to conceal my status as a foreigner in every day life. 80% of English class is done in Japanese. The rest is chanting words, singing songs, playing games, and occasionally using full phrases in a form of conversation. No child, I repeat, NO CHILD, ends up with perfect pronunciation because I am there. They do, however, get a chance to hear what normal, fluent English sounds like and that is invaluable.
The gov't of Japan made 英語ノート for those ES that have no ALT. Having used it, I can say it isn't the best resource, but it would certainly allow a Japanese speaker to operate an English class without the presence of an ALT. I like teaching the extra stuff, the classes about Halloween and Easter and 4th of July and all the other cultural differences. Those are the things I find impossible to replace without a "native speaker."
0
kazan
Frungy: I couldn't agree with you more. Teaching here has made me considerably more careful about knowing why grammar works the way it does, but just because it's right doesn't mean it's what's used. Textbook English isn't natural English at times, and the students AND teachers need to know that. That's what native English speakers are beneficial for. Though, if a non-native speaker has lived and accustomed to an English-speaking country for long enough to be mistaken for a native speaker (like HesKun) an exception should be made.
0
KaptainKichigai
HesKun- simple way to fix the situation-lie!Say you moved to the States when you were 6 months old... or perhaps get a teaching certification for English as a foreign language. BTW, why in the world do you want to be an English teacher if you are fluent in Japanese and hold a Masters in Japanese Culture?
0
DeepAir65
Yes but given a choice wouldn't you rather go to a native speaker?
In the UK where the most common foreign language taught in schools is french most of the french teachers are not french - maybe that is why we are so bad at foreign languages?
0
cleo
brotokyo -
Oooer, no.....I never even noticed that I'd written 'her'. I suppose it's just that I'm female and used to teach English, and my kids' English teachers have almost all been female. No reason a male can't do the job equally well/badly. I've never been in a lesson where genitals were an issue!
0
combinibento
Native-level fluency should suffice. The teacher should not need to be a native in terms of being "born" in the area. In looking back on a high school Spanish class, it now dawns on me that the speaker was an American who spent much time in Latin America, and learned it so well she sounded like a native. No one had any qualms being taught by her. The same should go for English teachers. The problem is that Japanese put so much emphasis on image, that they usually want a white person teaching them. I don't see any non-white people playing teachers in those English school ads featuring 'Beat' Takeshi.
0
tranel
I don't think you need to be taught by a native speaker, but the teacher should (of course) have solid proficiency in the language. Look at the Scandinavians! You'll find plenty of people in Sweden, Denmark, Norway or Finland who speak excellent English (yes, albeit "colored" by their native tongues) and who have all been taught by teachers from their respective countries.
What is "real native" English anyway? It is one of the official languages of the Philippines, and you will find many Indians who speak it with far more eloquence than a lot of people from the UK, US, Canada, Australia or New Zealand. There is also such a thing as "global English" which is English as spoken by the many, many non-native speakers who use it everyday in business or travel.
Successful language tuition is about inspiring students, not being overly obsessive about details/grammar (a major reason for lacking English skills in Japan), and about making students understand that their quality of life will/could well be improved by knowing the language.
Thinking back to my GABA days, the first thing I told my students was "with me, within this booth, it is perfectly OK to make mistakes. I understand everything you say, you don't have to worry about getting every single detail right. Speaking is more important than grammar." And lo and behold, how they relaxed.
Sadly, obsessing about details is an integral part of this culture and will not go away any time soon...
0
my2sense
Absulootly they shood be nativ speakars and they shood be very good with speling & grammer as well.
0
britling
My anecdotal experience of talking to and observing non-native teachers in different countries is that it worked until the students started asking questions about whether phrase or sentence X was acceptable, and if so by how much. Likewise, questions about how people use the language in native or fluent non-native environments, and issues of slang, often led to unsatisfactory answers. Some of the students became noticeably frustrated in these situations. If the teacher was very fluent, these problems largely didn't appear.
It seems to me that while non-native teachers can quite easily do the job, in practice they usually have to be so fluent in the language as to be near-native anyway, such that the native/non-native comparison is almost meaningless.
0
marushka
haha, native speaker... i was working with native english and native french speakers, both were making such huge mistakes that both by the end lost their jobs.
0
DeepAir65
there's probably a difference between acceptable and being grammatically correct. There is slang in every language.
Some colleagues were doing an English course and they showed me their idiom work book - I understood maybe one in ten and I am a native English speaker, but not an American...
0
CoolCali
Of course people will call me racist, but I've heard worse from better so here goes my rant.
You want Chinglish? Go to China. You want Singlish? Go to Singapore. You want Jinglish? Go to a Juku.
Native English teachers, not speakers, TEACHERS, like myself are the ONLY ones who should be allowed to teach English. Fortunately, the BOE in my prefecture agrees with me, and compensates me accordingly. These boneheads that come here with anime wet dreams and degrees in underwater basket weaving have no place in the classroom. Too bad the J-government doesn't make it a requirement for a credential. It's probably why J-students rank last in Asia in English proficiency year after year.
0
Fadamor
A non-native speaker will inject their accent into the lesson and even if a student nails the pronounciation the teacher will attempt to have things said "their way" or not at all. How many native Japanese teachers are going to spend time working on correctly pronouncing the English "L" sound with their native Japanese students? (About the same number as native English teachers would spend on correctly pronouncing "ryo" in Japanese without making it sound like three syllables)
0
marushka
Chotto… you mean that only via English native speaker a person can learn proper English ie speaking without accent? Well, I speak six foreign languages, and sometimes I don’t care at all how “pure” my English or German are, not really important imho...
0
cleo
So will a native speaker; take your choice of Queen's English, cockney, brummie, lanky, west country, geordie, scouse, Welsh, Irish or Scots, and you haven't even left the British Isles. Native speakers, all of 'em.
0
XXXXX
It depends. Sometimes a non-native will be better also because they're teaching a language which they had to study hard to learn, so they would have more skills in presenting that language to a student. Ideally. I mention this because it's a bit hard to logically explain your own native language by trying to teach it.
0
marushka
Well, there are different levels of understanding different texts / topics. Even a native speaker who did study literature for example will not be able to understand professional conversation between two medical doctors.
0
ambrosia
It depends on the goals of the students and not just the language abilities of the teachers in question but their cultural understanding as well. I would ask if the teacher knows when and how to use polite English and when it's appropriate to use more casual English, if the teacher knows how to engage in small talk and how to teach students that skill so they don't sound like they're interrogating people when they meet them for the first time and if the teacher knows well enough not to make generally pointless statements such as "Japan has four seasons". Obviously language skills are important but learning a language is also about learning the culture. If a non-native speaker can do those things, then have at it!
0
Fadamor
All those dialects sound the same to me, (i.e., they talk funny). :-)
My ex was from Russia and spent her last year in Russia learning English from a native Russian teacher. Her teacher passed her with flying colors, but for the next three years in the U.S. she could not properly form the "w" sound, nor could she differentiate between hard and soft "th" sounds. This was because her teacher ALSO had trouble with those phonemes. Every language has unique sounds we naturally "tune into" as a child. Learning a second language forces us to pick up and master new sounds. Your good teachers are going to truly master them while the majority are just going to make an attempt at them. The native speakers don't have this problem when teaching their native language. They've mastered the nuances of their language since they were children.
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marushka
quote So will a native speaker; take your choice of Queen's English, cockney, brummie, lanky, west country, geordie, scouse, Welsh, Irish or Scots, and you haven't even left the British Isles. Native speakers, all of 'em. unquote quote All those dialects sound the same to me, unquote you are NOT serious, i hope....
0
cleo
The Northern Irish can't pronounce 'th'.
An American 20 has only one 't' sound.
American vowels are all over the place. (cat/cot/cut)
So are Aussie vowels, but in a different way. (good day = g'die)
Scots have extra 'h' sounds where other natives don't (eg while is w'H'ile)
Northern Brits have no 'h' sound.
And they all have different intonations.
Yet they're all native speakers of English.
0
Good_Jorb
Given the overall quality of native English teachers(in Japan), I'm sure non-native English speakers could do just as well or perhaps even a bit better of a job. It is probably a Japan/Asia problem because of their hiring standards(or lack there of).
0
Fadamor
Hey, if you're going to go that route, there are NO "t"s in the American version of "butter". It's pronounced "buhder" during normal conversation. But that's simply a function of speaking the word rapidly. When teaching the words, the consonants are clearly pronounced.
0
Fadamor
Marushka said,
I say,
Pehaps you missed the smily emoticon at the end of that statement? Your hopes have been realized!
0
TheRat
This leads to the obvious question of how long is long enough? And further, what is really meant by the word "native"? I mean if you are BORN in a country like the USA or Britain, but then your family takes you when you are a child to Spain to live the rest of your life until you end up here, are you still native? How about a person in a bilingual country like Canada. Is that STILL native? Especially if you grew up in Quebec where French was predominantly spoken? Or how about the Philippines, where English is used so much that it is the second language? Or does "native" refer to one's passport? Now, take my wife. Naturalized American, but Filipino born. We have been married 20 years. Lots of English there, and she teaches it as an ALT. Is she a native speaker now? Or is it just plain ole skin color that makes a native speaker. This is not so much a stupid question as when she enters schools and gets those dark frowns (even though she is an American), it, I think, it comes down to skin color, and the joke is, she is actually whiter than I am! And I am the definition of a white, blue-eyed American. But, really, as the number of Asian Indians outnumber those "native speakers" or the number of English speaking Chinese outnumber "native white speakes" maybe we should be placing as much value on those accents than on "white accents." The term native speaker should just be banned as it makes no sense, in the end. Nor does it imply "better quality" as my wife's company found that the Asian ALTs worked harder thant the Brits and Americans who often ended up drinking, having sex with multiple Japanese teachers (who then complained to the Board of Education once they found out that they were on a freakin list of sex partners) or just getting drunk every night--this is before that got bored with the whole English language gig.
0
Farmboy
Non-native speakers are just fine, if they are fluent or near fluent, and they are good teachers. The problem is that that is not what the market wants. Students want to study with native speakers. Remember that they have already been studying with a Japanese teacher at their schools, and they want something different.
0
Farmboy
I should add that the whole foreign accent thread of argument is absurd, in my opinion. Do Japanese students of Americans sound like Americans? Do Japanese students of German English teachers sound like Germans? Please give me a break! If there is an accent, it's going to be a Japanese accent, unless it's a very unusual student.
In additional support of Japanese teachers of English, I would say that a Japanese teacher who has successfully learned English has a lot to offer that a monolingual native teacher does not. Still, as I mentioned, that isn't usually what the market wants.
0
StackedActor
coolcali: In Philippines, our English teachers are Filipinos, and everybody can speak english just fine back there, you are generalizing too much, not all chinese speak Chinglish, not all Singaporeans speak Singlish, and if they have accents ,so what!??? which is the right and proper accent by the way??? American??? English??? Scottish??? Australian??? there is nothing wrong to learn and master a specific accent, it's up to the person who is learning it, if the student's purpose for learning is to become a CNN reporter then he/she should learn how to speak properly to meet the level of the Native speakers, but if the purpose is just to learn the grammar and communicate in english, then speaking with accent is fine, Indians speak with strong accents, but they have the best I.T. engineers working globaly .
0
StackedActor
In Philippines our English teachers are Filipinos, and in Japan most English teachers are "Native Speakers" , but we speak english more than Japanese people do. I think this is a big proof that you don't have to be A native speaker to teach English.
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binfalastin
To all of you who are disccssing the question of native or non-native, you are forgetting the core issue , It is the language you want to learn then you can learn the culture .If you want to learn the culture you'll have to communicate with people and communication sometimes does not need language skills .I once read that if you become interested in the artist you 'll lose interest in the art itself . Focus on the art not the artist.
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seesaw
I would say it doesn't matter as long as the teacher is perfect in the Language and the students like his/her accent.
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KaptainKichigai
In all honesty, its only maybe 10 percent teacher input to 90 percent student output. The only way to really learn a language is immersion and practice. Teachers are only the guide and shouldnt be the conversation partner, other students should be. Your English is only as good as the amount of effort you give to practice and use it. Bottom Line.
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pointofview
CoolCali,
Please elaborate. Thanks.
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tkoind2
I don't think it is as much a matter of native speaker or not. It is more a matter of the proper speaking and teaching ability of the instructor.
I know Japanese and other nationals who master English at a level beyond the average American. Perhaps judging the ability of a teacher should be by his or her capacity to speak with an accent and structure that is ideal to be widely understood.
On the other hand I know many native speakers from regions with strong local accents that I, as a native speaker, sometimes need subtitles to understand. These would not be great canditates for serious teachers.
The criteria should be clear widely understandable accent, strong grasp of the formal and standard language structures and teaching skills. Where the person is from may impact these considerations, but many candidates will transcend the limitations of native or non-native consideration.
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pointofview
Native English teachers in Japan aren`t spending most of their teaching time explaining the fine details of grammar. Most of it is conversation style.
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softtako
i think non-native teachers have the the advantage of knowing what it's like to learn the language as a 2nd language and its pitfalls. Native teachers might assume certain things are a given and might not explain it as well. Just in terms of learning japanese during college, all of my teachers were japanese and there were times when they didn't explain certain things too well, but when I read some lesson books written by non natives, they seem to understand the learner better.
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NuckinFutz
I don't think who the teacher is or what country they are from has anything to do with the quality of English education. The actual cirriculum and the desired goals determine the effectiveness of any educational program. Japan continues to focus it's efforts on passing entrance examinations, not functional language ability. Until that changes don't worry about who's teaching!
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fishy
Native or near-native English speaker who also speaks the students' language is good. Being able to explain things and being able to understand why his/her students make the mistakes they make - mistakes Japanese students tend to make are different from the ones European students make.
So, I personally think a teacher like HesKun (April 21, 01:03pm) is ideal. Someone who speaks near-native level English who also speak & understands Japanese, also he himself had to learn English as a student, so he can relate to the frustration his students might have.
Also, just because you are a native english speaker, it doesn't mean you can be a good English teacher.
My native languages are Japanese and French, but I cannot teach either of them as I didn't try to learn.. I just happen to have Japanese and French parents. Even though my English is not perfect, I feel more comfortable teaching English because I learned the language as a student and I know what kind of mistakes are common and why they make those mistakes. (I am not a teacher, though!)
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bicultural
The main problem with non-native English speakers is not their accent, it is their pronunciation. Filipinos cannot pronounce "three" as it becomes "tree."
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tranel
"The main problem with non-native English speakers is not their accent, it is their pronunciation. Filipinos cannot pronounce "three" as it becomes "tree.""
Bicultural: How many Americans say "nucular" instead of the correct "nuclear"? Quite a few. How many Americans say "Kerazy" instead of "Crazy"? Quite a few. Ask a Glaswegian to pronounce "Moon" and it will come out as "Muun". In many parts of Canada "about" becomes "aboat". And I haven't even made it to Liverpool yet....
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Farmboy
Well now, if people are saying "City Hotel" with Japanese pronunciation, it could present problems, but what are the communicative problems created by "three" instead of "tree," I wonder...
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PleasureGelf
I talked to tree people today. One of them was deaf as a log.
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dolphingirl
I think if the non-native English speaker has spent some time in an English speaking country and is pretty much as fluent as any native speaker then there is no reason to believe that they couldn't do just as well as a native speaker. On the other hand, a native speaker should be familiar with English grammar and be able to communicate well in English. Both should be motivated, be devoted to teaching their students and be willing to continue to learn words, phrases and idioms.
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soothsayer
Coolcali,
Close, but no cigar, as Groucho would have said. You should have written "native level English teachers" (I've worked with them before) and you would have been right on the money.
Regarding pronunciation, as long as a teacher is cognizant of standard british/commonwealth/american pronunciation of words, and the variations of grammar (e.g. different to/from and different than) and is willing to inform students of the existence of both, then I don't see that there is a problem at all, even if the teacher has a non-native accent. It's all a question of comprehensibility and teaching ability at the end of the day.
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wiwaneko
I don't think it matters where the teach is from, just as long as they have experience in speaking Enlgish fluently and pronouncing it decently. I've heard a lot of the Eglish teachers saying a word completely wrong, which is why an education should be required to teach English. Some people in American can barely even speak proper English, yet they can get a job in Japan teaching it without any formal teaching or knowledge themselves. I'm pretty sure there are some English teachers in Japan that don't even know grammatic rules or anything. How are you suppossed to teach a language when you bearly know anything about it yourself?
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wiwaneko
*teacher
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marushka
My former colleague native English speaker ( American) lost her job as she didn’t understand meaning of some words, a mistake which resumed in a huge financial loss. This is a native English speaker….
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CandleStickPark
Can a Non-Native do just as well or better? Yes - of course. Can all non-native do just as well or better? No - of course not. That said - Do English teachers at school have to be native speakers? No.
Here's the thing - What is the reason for learning English? Is it to sound like a Brit, an Aussie, an American? OR is it to communicate in the English Language?
Also, such things like Idioms, colloquial English, etc, important to you? If so, choose the English of the country you wish to know these specific items for. No point known what, "I'm going to cap your A$$" means if you're doing business in India and no one talks that way. "Bangers and Mash" will only label you as Gay in the USA - leave that language to the Brits. etc etc....
My point is - What's your reason for English? That answer will direct you in what type of English to learn.
If you want live in India and/or do business in India, you probably want to learn Indian-English (including their idioms and colloquial parts).
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MakusuSun
Teachers don't have to be "Native" to teach.
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worthless
My younger son taught middle-school English in S. Korea. He was always uncertain of his effectiveness, regardless of positive reviews, because the motivation of this age group to study anything at all varied widely. Nevertheless, he filled an important additional role in sharpening the conversational skills of the non-native English teachers. There's a role, certainly, for both native and non-native teachers of English as a foreign language.
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CandleStickPark
The word, Native, here I this is misleading. What does it mean to be a native English speaker? And what importance are you placing on that? Pronunciation? What, American's think their way of talking is the proper way, Brits think the same way...yet, in India, that's the national language. Indian's talk English to each other (in addition to their local language, be it hindi, bengal, etc etc). So, Indian's also speak Native English yet their "sound" or Pronunciation is quite different, yet, they are still Native English Speakers.
I am not a white man, yet I was born in a country where English is it's only language. People always complimented me on how well I've learned English. Y? since I'm not white???? Again, this "Native" speaker thing is a mislabel, WHat is the reason for you learning English, how will you use your English.
Anyone who has a mastery of the language, art, skill, trade would be a possible good teacher (not every human, in spite of their mastery, can teach what they know). As it's been said before - many American's do not have a mastery - Heck, Dan Quayle (Vice President under George H. Bush) misspelled Potato at an elementary school.
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mrhyde
You can learn to speak broken English like the cookie monster from the Nigerians. Or you can learn broken English in an unintelligible accent from the Filipinos, the Brazilians or a majority of people from non-native speaking European countries.
What I have found is that people in Japan from non-native speaking English countries often think they speak better English than they actually do. You really have to grow up in a native speaking country to truly understand all of the intricacies and subtleties of English and to learn when we we use certain idioms and expressions and when it's not appropriate to use them. English has too much vocabulary, slang and idioms that a non-native speaker could never learn, no matter how long they study English. Studying English in your country for a few thousand hours is not enough. Native speakers have been listening, thinking, speaking and dreaming in English for 24 hours a day, for 20 plus years, not too mention that as a child living in a native speaking country, they were able to master the grammar and accent of native speaker, something that a non-native speaker will ever be able to master. Also, people who are interested in English, are often also interested in the culture of native speaking countries and non-native speakers can not help in this regard. There are enough native speaking English speaking teachers and non-native English speaking Japanese teachers in Japan, that there is no need for non-native English speaking foreign English teachers in Japan. Admittedly, most of the best paying jobs for foreigners are as English teachers, and it sucks for you if you can't find a job, but just because you want to live in Japan, does not mean Japan is obligated to have a job for you. If you are that desperate to work in Japan, you are going to have be satisfied working in a factory or McDonalds or some such job.
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LostinNagoya
mrhyde, you're wrong my friend. Here's a local, good example: when I was in Japan, I had lessons with Japanese teachers, they were wonderful. Then I started studuying with an American girl. Man! She could explain kanjis, the subttleties of the Japanese culture in way that was so clear it was easier to learn. I bet here, on JT, there are some foreigners that can teach Japanese better than a Japanese teacher. For instance: a foreigner will speak openly about how Japanese deal with sex in a much clearer way than a Japanese teacher, because the latter will have barriers the former won't. I may be mistaken because I don't her personally. But I bet Cleo, from this very forum, is one of these foreigners that understand Japan better than Japanese themselves. The same works for other languages.
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fishy
Hmmm.. I have met some Filipinos who speak very decent English and I have also met Native english speakers who speak ghetto English. Just because you're not a native english speaker, that doesn't mean your english is broken - there are TONS of non natives who speak more decent English than natives.
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fishy
if the teacher is from the country where his/her students are interested in, the students can definitely learn the culture.
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0letstalk
I have never met a native English speaker who could explain things better to me than a non-native.
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moonbeams
Lots of poorly written comments from native speakers, ripe with terrible syntax and atrocious spelling, degrading non-native speaking English instructors here.. delicious irony.
Alright. Aside from the average Japanese high school English teacher, there are people who are non-native speakers that can write a hellavolot better than the ALTs posting here.
I have a German friend who teaches English in Japan. He's qualified because he can explain English as someone who has mastered it. Being non native and mastering a language gives one an edge over natives who never have to think about their own languages.
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ivebert
Cheaper teacher will do!
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evaganda
I agree with fishy...Filipinos were exposed to the English language even before they are born.The medium of teaching in the Philippines is English in which everything is taught in English except the subject Pilipino. Although not all Filipinos can speak it fluently,a good number of them has mastered English and they can speak it proficiently and fluently.It doesn't really matter if you are a native speaker or not,because at the end of each lesson, is what the student have learned matters most.
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TheRat
Just checked with the wife, yep, she can pronounce three. She did say that those who can not say "three" are not very smart. Lesson here, do not generalize; make sure that the English teacher has a flipping degree in teaching English. And make sure that he or she can be understood no matter what the accent was. There was a phone interview before I had my real interview to make sure that I did not have a "southern accent" as I am from Florida. Having a "Southern accent" was seen as a huge negative. I did not have one, but if they wanted one I could "rustle" one up at any time, along with a bunch of other accents.
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Farmboy
Mr. Hyde,
That was a pretty offensive comment, I think. Talk about people who think they know English better than they actually do...
not to mention
you are going to have to be
Been out of your country too long? Maybe you need a few lessons?
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DenDon
anybody can make themselves as intelligible or unintelligible as they please to any other speaker of english anywhere if they make the effort to do so.
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jj1980
Love that quote. I agree, my wife and my friend's wife are both Japanese locals. Put them in a room behind a closed curtain along with two U.S. Natives and you would not be able to tell the difference. If you do choose 1 or 2 of the 4, it's guaranteed that it will be the Native Americans. Why? It's not just because of the school systems, or that American’s are dumb and can't speak their own language. It's because of accents from the south, north and where ever. Plus the many different Ebonics that we have included into our culture. It would be like a man from Nebraska saying that Texans, New Yorkers, and folks from Wisconsin all speak broken English. So yes non-natives CAN teach if they have the skill.
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shufu
I agree that teachers don't have to be native to teach. I believe that many foreigners (especially europeans) speak english better than native english speakers, and learn the grammar much more thoroughly. The majority of Americans for example, if you ask them about why a grammar rule is a certain way, they will say "just Coz."
However I do believe that in the classroom it should be english only - none of this katakana nonsense - everything by romanji. This would make a huge difference as to how english is pronounced by Japanese.
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smithinjapan
Not an easy question to answer, since even in the 'native' English world there are vast differences in terms of pronunciation, idiomatic expressions, and a discrepancies in grammar use (especially between the US and UK, though they are subtle at times). Never mind near dialects like "Singlish" or pidgins like Afrikkans (or is that a Creole?). What's more, there are all sorts of debates on what constitutes proper language education, and what the purpose of learning the language is. In today's world, there is a more immediate need for communication, and as much as it goes against my thinking I believe that in many cases so long as the message gets across it doesn't entirely matter if it's 100% grammatically correct or not.
Still, I would have to say my answer is 'no', so long as the teacher in question had deep knowledge and good level of fluency. The idea that because a teacher is of the same nationality they cannot do as good a job as a native of the target language (assuming it's a different language, of course) is folly. I know a number of Japanese who can better explain the rules of grammar and have a better overall concept of the language than a lot of native English speakers do, or should Mr. Tanii be denied an English teaching job simply because Cletis, from backwater Louisiana, apparently speaks the language as his native tongue?
Likewise, as LostinNagoya touched on, there are foreigners who know more about the Japanese language than the Japanese do; which is to say they can explain the grammar, know Keigo and how to use it perfectly, have a better grasp of Kanji and its origins, etc. (not necessarily that they can communicate better in the language).
We grow up and are usually raised in our native tongues (hence, native), but that doesn't mean we have a good overall grasp of the language, nor in my opinion should that automatically entitle us to any and all jobs dealing with our native tongue. Native English speakers, if not qualified to teach as their Japanese counterparts may be (since we're dealing with that topic), can still serve a very important role as a SUPPLEMENT to what students learn, and THAT is where the Japanese teachers may not be able to fill in; after all, culture plays a big part in language learning, and if the purpose is for communication then best to test it out by trying to communicate with native speakers on their playing field.
Now... the key is to get a whole lot of Japanese teachers to the level where they CAN speak and teach the language well enough to not need a foreigner who can do it better.
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jessssicaaa
I believe native English would be better, unless the non-native is taught to speak english almost fluently, including pronoucing and spelling it well. But, define native english? There are 3 main native english speaking countries; England, America and Australia. All with different dialects, mannerisms and ways of spelling words/teaching in general. I supose, just being able to speak english fluetly and write/read english is the most important for an english teacher, so non-native or native wouldn't matter as long as that skill is there.
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TheRat
Yeh, it is still interesting that when a school orders up a "native speaker" ALT that when a black guy shows up, they are shocked. NOT what they had in mind, it seems. But, it is all about the labor shortage. Here in Kitakyushu, Interact got a huge contract, and they had a rule of only hiring native speaker. Seems that there were just a WHOLE lot of native speakers just like hanging around it seems. So, one guy, who is from Georgia, next to Russia, who worked for my wife's company applied and loh and behold, they decided that he was flipping native enough. And he is a good teacher too. Married, stable. But, the term seems to loose a lot of meaning when there just are enough to go around, especially on a low salary of 220,000 a month--survival or barely survival money.
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christyjapan
I once worked with a teacher from South Africa - all students were VERY surprised to know that he was an African, especially that he was blue-eyed and had light brown hair. and yes, South Africans are native English speakers, too.. It was just interesting to see those students' reaction.
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TheRat
I should have said, there were NOT a whole lot of native speakers. Sheesh, and I am a native speaker.
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nutsagain
Oh aye, yer nae kin say jis' because one' a naaative speaker ye 'ave any monoply on the spoken language.
Indeed I am liking it very much and in India we sincerely hope that you will do the needful at your earliest possible convenience for English aquisition.
This English good or not, lah? How come so ex one, lah?
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Sunjovi
haha....one of my Indian friend who graduated in Australia since 3rd grade school once applied here in one school in Gunma for a Teaching job. He phoned the school and one japanese staff picked the phone. He spoke in japanese doko no kuni des ka and he said Indo...the answer came sorry only native speakers are wanted.
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StackedActor
How many students of English schools here in Japan, with NATIVE SPEAKER teachers graduated with perfect english??? ALL people that I know, my friends who graduated from local english schools in Japan still can't speak correctly, they were taught by NATIVE SPEAKERS , My ex gf graduated from a University in Australia but still has Japanese accent. And my manager's girlfriend , who didn't go to any english schools at all, taught herself , and now speaks English perfectly without accents. Sometimes English Language schools just use native speakers as Mascots to sell their product , they're using the Race and color. Like the way they use Africans to sell Hip Hop clothes and to catch customers for Hip hop clubs,eventhough not all africans like hip hop. like a soy sauce for sushi stereotypical mentality. If the person passed the requirements for teaching , then they should be allowed to teach no matter what Race or where they came from.
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amerijap
My answer is "NO". Anyone who has a solid experience in teaching at ESL class in any foreign country should be eligible for the job. That person doesn't have to be a native speaker of English.
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apects
No, they don't, as long as they are qualified and can produce results.
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grafton
Just before xmas last year a friend asked if I would help his daughter out with her English and I did, and when I asked where she was in her studies she said “passive voice” and I simply said what I was taught at school, passive is bad grammar. It isn’t of course, but in English schools in the 50s and 60s that is what we were taught. I was also taught to never end a sentence with a preposition or start a sentence with ”and”. But we all know that today much of this is now acceptable. So to what degree is being a native speaker helpful?
I grew up in and went to school in London so my English is good, but there are parts of Northern England that for me might as well be speaking a foreign language. Newcastle (in the NE) is one part of the country I really do have problems with and if I have problems what is a Japanese student going learn from someone from that region? Yes it is English English, as apposed to American English or Australian English both of which have their own innumerable collection of accents. British, American and Australian English are the three main language groups, but there are so many more and even as English speakers for one of the main groups we can’t be expected to understand all other native “English” speakers. I can understand Jamaican but never speak it, would we be happy to have that taught as a second language called English? I think not.
Really what is needed is some control, some standard that we all accept and I’m at all sure that a native speakers needs a teaching qualification, a brain yes, something that might not always be present in qualified teachers. I also agree with some posts above that many none native speaker do understand the mechanics of English far better than most native speakers, but then we live and use our language in an organic sense, we don’t dissect it and have no need to. That isn’t to say that at a particular point a native speaker will be needed, no speaker of English as a second language is ever going to be able to teach phrasal verbs and idioms of a particular English speaking country and they are different from country to country. This level of English is learned almost by osmosis.
One thing I think we can all agree on is that no country needs the one year backpackers that say they are teachers because they are native speakers.
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cleo
I was at school in England in the 50s and 60s and no one ever taught me that the passive voice was bad grammar. I was taught that it had its place, as did prepositions on the ends of sentences and starting a sentence with 'and' when appropriate. But then I was in the North, where it seems we speak a different language to the English grafton learned..... I was lucky in that I was exposed to a polyglot environment at university - I learned to understand people from London, Birmingham, Scotland, Ireland (N and S), Wales and lots of other places. Some of them even learned to understand me, too. :-)
Well I'm NW not NE, but the folk I've taught seem to have done OK, including my own kids....
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Sarge
Arnold Schwarzenegger is a non-native speaker, and he's a great teacher! Heck, he taught Jay Leno how to speak!
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grafton
cleo at 09:14 PM JST - 8th June
A Derbyshire accent can, as you know full well, be next to impossible, if the person puts it on, you may understand it and I might just get by, but I am positive you never used such an accent when you were teaching or should we all be listening out for Cleo students that sound like English farmers?
“But then I was in the North, where it seems we speak a different language to the English grafton learned.....”
Embassies tend to be in the capital cites and as a child of a diplomat that’s where I simply had to go to school, I was just lucky I suppose. Sorry. Besides aren’t you gilding the lily here in that I was talking about the NE and you know as well as I do what the accent sounds like, it’s impossible.
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stevecpfc
grafton and Cleo, iw as educated in the 70
s and 80s in London and i cant make head no tail of what you are on about. I guess it verifies my decision never to accept ofers to reach English whilst i am herecos i know i would be cheating people.The only person i ever taught was me missus and voila, a Japanese lady witha South London accent when she speaks English, bless her.
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grafton
Steve “grafton and Cleo, iw as educated in the 70s and 80s in London and i cant make head no tail of what you are on about. I guess it verifies my decision never to accept ofers to reach English whilst i am herecos i know i would be cheating people.” “The only person i ever taught was me missus and voila, a Japanese lady with a South London accent when she speaks English, bless her.”
If your first paragraph is anything to go by the people of Japan are going to be eternally grateful for the decision you made. I will keep my ears open for the lady with a South London accent because it would be music to my ears after all the “English” accents I (we) do hear. I think Cleo might have over reacted to what she thought I was saying. I wasn’t being negative about accents as such, only that I can’t see the value of anybody acquiring a strong accent when they are learning a language. I would think that would be counter productive unless the person was going to live in that region. She may also have thought that I was being a typical Southerner and we both know what them up North think of people from London.
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cleo
I think it just happens. When I first came to Japan I learned the language I heard around me, and ended up with a pretty strong Hokuriku accent, which I'm told has since mellowed considerably. I'm also told my Lancashire accent is as strong as ever, hey up, n pass t'black puddns.
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