Do you think a man holding a door open for a woman, holding her chair for her when she sits down, or giving up his seat for her are outmoded gestures of politeness or do they still have their place in today's society?
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102 Comments
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0
Elephunk
Having manners will never go out of style, at least for the people who want to matter in this world. Just look at any high level interactions (such as political summits, scientific conventions, academic or economic forums) and you will find people with good manners. The gestures mentioned (be that towards women or men) show that you have respect towards that person, which is still important in this day and age. BTW, I hold doors for both men and women :)
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Katsuro1000
I agree with Elephunk.
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masterkun05
Not if the women is an old or a pregnant lady who struggles to stand on the bus or to open the big heavy glass doors at the shopping mall.Its just commonsense to help these people. Otherwise it is a waste of time as younger women see it as being condescending and do not appreciate the various acts of politeness and kindness.
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gotalife
I am also in agreement with "Elephunk" and "Katsuro1000". The lack of politeness in today's society is terrible. Gentlemen seem to be a dying breed. Most ladies I know enjoy and appreciate good manners. If a lady does not want these gestures she will let you know and you can adjust accordingly. Make a note: It doesn't make her less of a person or a woman if she doesn't appreciate you being an "old fashioned" gentleman. Holding a chair or door for someone is not a waste of time, it's a gesture of politeness and as "masterkun05" said...common sense.
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smartacus
I often offer my seat but recently I have encountered a few women who seem to resent it.
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AfroSensei1
I don't even know where "chivalry" came from especially since in just about every country on this planet...women are viewed as 2nd class and beneath men. A contradiction? Women in Japan can't even keep their maiden names after marriage but you can hold a door open for them? I personally don't need a man to hold the door for me simply because I can open it for myself. Men open the door for themselves. ....But if he did open it for me, I wouldn't be rude about it. I see chivalry as like garnish on a plate of over-priced food....nice but not necessary.
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PeaceWarrior
Well, if it is outmoded, then I guess I am too. There is no way I am not going to hold a door for a lady, give up my seat or hold her chair when she sits down. That's just good manners.
I also hold the doors for my elders, men or women, it doesn't matter.
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whiskeysour
It depends on the situation- When I used to live in the boon docks of Saitama & Tochigi. I got alot of evil looks from old senior women & some men, when they first enter through the doors of the JR train. They seem rude and arrogant at times. I didn't give my chair up because of the evil stare & racial tension that was in the atmosphere. Usually I choose who I give seats to by their demeanor and facial expression.
I gave my seat up many times to not only old people but mental retarded/handicapped people.
Even through a crowded area, I walk safely not to bump into to people, I have manners for that too. But I always get the occasional young lady that doesn't move or avoid me when I am walking in a straight path.
Am I supposed to avoid her or is she supposed to avoid me ?? Is it rude to bump into people with out saying excuse me "Semasasein" ?
I try my best to open doors and hold them but in this country you have to abide by their rules !!!! Sometimes I open a door for a lady or people they think I want something from them or what are doing funny foreigner ???
0
Disillusioned
Where? Not in Japanese society! They never were part of the male dominated Japanese society.
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my2sense
This chivalry question is slightly rhetoric and it depends if you are referring to the world or just Japan. Definitely rare in Japan when most of the general public are oblivious anyway. Chivalry came from knighthood in England and it definitely was the way back in the 1700s on and it went to America with the settlers. My Mom always told me you can tell the class and affluence of a person or a man by his chivalry and manners. Even Bond is a gentleman when he is taking a dude out. I like these deep society questions JT but some simply are nonexistent or misunderstood in Japanese society. I rarely get a door held for me by either sex and its not that they are a jerk but most Japanese are in their own world. Anyway, even after 200 years, the British in Hong Kong still couldn't get the Chinese to line up properly, offer a door and keep a voice down... however the Japanese are excellent with being quiet, douzo and escalators and elevators (by all means)
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skipbeat
As someone who is young, it is the polite thing to offer the seat for a pregnant woman/senior or a man/woman who have a baby or a child in his/her arm. It's just common sense along with doing something nice. Stop thinking about oneself instead think of others once in a while. Kindness goes a long way regardless of the evil stare or not.
It is still relevant today as much as yesterday. The only way it will be outmoded if people and the young people don't see it to be important and part of their culture.
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M51T
I always open doors and give up seats for elders. They deserve it. The rest are equal to me so shouldn't be shown condescending offers.
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herefornow
Disillusioned -- spot on. It never ceases to amaze me how many J-guys can ignore an elderly or pregnant woman when they are standing right in front of them on the train. Personally, I take every chance I can to offer my seat or help women with strollers go up stairs or on/off buses. (Just yesterday in fact.) I do it as sort of reverse psychology, since many folks here assume we are all threatening and rude. (Makes them stop and think -- why didn't a J-guy do the same thing?) And my fiance has almost never had to open a door or pull out her chair by herself. Just the way I was raised. And I know it makes her feel special and appreciate that I don't take her for granted. Just like Elephunk said "Having manners will never go out of style, at least for the people who want to matter in this world."
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mrsynik
I think some particularly elderly women enjoy missing out on a seat just so they have something else to grumble about for the rest of the day. I've given up my seat many times on Tokaido Line trains between Atami and Toyohashi (no seats because JR Tokai insist on using trains too short most have to stand) and have been looked at by some old ladies like I'd just got off a spaceship - they are stunned to be even offered a seat.
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pamelot
As a woman, I appreciate civility, and I do not feel "condescended to" by a display of good manners. It is uplifting and refreshing to be shown common courtesy...
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Sarge
"Having manners will never go out of style"
This is all that needs to be said.
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mikehuntez
Giving up your seat to an old or pregnant woman is something I'd do and have done in the past. Other than that I treat women as equals. If I can stand so can they. They have the same amount of legs as I do.
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sakurala
I am a women and love it when people show a little bit of consideration...like not letting a door slam in my face when I am behind them. My boyfriend is always a gentleman, opening doors and carrying my stuff for me when it looks like I want help. But if I decline the help, he doesn't insist which makes me even happier. I also try to return the favor to the elderly, pregnent, people with baby carriages and basically anyone that I can. I just think it is a good way to make people smile :)
0
Monkeyz
As a human being, I feel that we should show respect and kindness to other human beings. Holding the door open just a little bit for the person behind you can make a difference in how hard it is to open. I try to always hold it open for anyone who is behind me. Japanese people always just let it slam in my face. Holding a door open for anyone, regardless of their perceived gender, is good manners.
There is "being nice" and "being an @$$" as far as the whole chivalry thing. Holding a door is nice. Helping someone smaller with something awkward or heavy is nice. Touching my chair is being an @$$. Really, honestly, I can manage a CHAIR. A friend of mine's husband was big on opening doors, and one time the three of us went to dinner. He insisted on opening her car door AND MINE both before we could get in and before we could get out. It pissed him off when I got tired of the Chivalry Show and opened my own car door to get out.
Of course, this stuff doesn't exist in Japan anyway. Guys stand up when I meet them for the first time at work and that's about it. A few little boys have told me "ladies first!" when we play board games in class. Remember, Japan is a society where your wife should walk 10 paces behind you, not one where she stands on the inner part of the sidewalk to avoid chamber pot sloshings. If a J-guy's lady got sloshed he would probably laugh or shrug and say "shou ga nai."
0
Papigiulio
Hah @ whiskeysour. I can completely relate to your story. Sooo many times here in Osaka I have had people just move in front of me and other people in line or push other people to get a seat. (last week even I saw a guy give a small kickup to a girls leg because she didnt let him pass, its ridiculous). There is even a woman at my station in the morning, just fighting for FIRST place in line to get a seat. Always happy when she is first and has to stand nontheless.
I usually dont care, I prefer to stand, and if I do get a seat I usually offer it to the old ladies or really old men. young people dont need it but depending on their health I dont mind to offer the seat.
As with doors, if I see someone close behind me I always keep it open, men or woman. But only the first, I give it a kind of push so it opens a bit more and then the next person should grab it heh.
So to answer the question, yeah they still have their place. We need a little more chivalry, espcially from the next generation.
0
fishy
if you go to Korea, you'd be surprised..
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fishy
they bump into absolutely ANYONE!!
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dracpoo2
Yes they do....
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Wakarimasen
they are still the right thing to do. the fact that many women (and indeed men) do not acknowledge the consideration in such gestures (e.g. just walk thru door being held open without a thanks) is annoying.
0
cleo
Yes they are outmoded and yes they do still have their place in today's society.
It used to be that those of the female persuasion were laced into corsets so tight it was difficult to breathe, and the slightest exertion caused pretty swooning. In that situation, letting the poor constrained ladies sit whenever possible, and avoid the strain of the heavy labour involved in opening doors and carrying heavy bags, was sensible and possibly saved everyone the bother of rushing for the smelling salts and giving the poor dear air. (Taking the corsets off would have been even more sensible....)
Nowadays we don't need to worry about ladies in corsets, and over-polite displays of 'manners' can be offputting. Still, it's nice to offer your seat to a person who obviously needs it more than you, whether they're male or female, young or old. Same with holding doors open - if you don't like the door slamming in your face, make the effort to hold it open for the person behind you.
I would say it was more a question of common sense and general civility, rather than anything else. Good manners tend to be viral.
0
Beelzebub
I know it shouldn't bother me, but I'm often annoyed watching how rude Japanese are to each other. While it's easy to blame the younger generation, it's not confined to any particular age group. Probably something to do with the uchi-soto conundrum, where courtesies paid to a person outside of one's sphere of relationships are considered egregious.
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my2sense
I got a chuckle out of this.... Some parts of Japan are indeed pretty bad. China and Korea take the Gold and Silver for rudeness hands down. Also good looks, nicely dressed with sportoman size and a scowl tends to be a nice repellant too.
0
AlfGarnett
Its common decency to let an old dear or pregnant woman have you seat or have a door held open for them.
I am old age pensioner and the only people with manners that offer me a sear on the bus when i am burdened with me Tesco bags are them over 30. The teenagers run to get the seats like its a race. Last week there was an old dear with sticks who were struggling and two mouthy nippers tun to get a seat before her. I shouted at the bleeders and told them the need a good thrashing!! And i was the one thrown off by the conductor, the world has gone mad.
0
Richard_III
For those of us brought up to believe in the importance of good manners as a mark of civilisation and good up-bringing, living in Japan is a daily challenge.
More often than not, my manners are increasingly slipping as I am barged, ignored or treated as if I didn't exist. This leads me to deliberately take on the manners of the natives, otherwise you begin to feel like a doormat. Even though I sometimes try to make an example to show my superior manners, I'm sometimes left with no alterntive but to give a good barge or shunt, be it with a salaryman, a zombie with their ipod on, or some walking-dead lass who'll be texting as she walks. It's a sorry situation.
If I ever have kids here, they will be brought up to have good manners and consideration for others. I imagine that they will have to spend a substantial portion of their childhood in Europe or America to avoid catching any of the bad practices of the natives.
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bicultural
I thought it was just common sense for men to do these things. Japanese men should learn to do this more often.
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ronaldk
Well, there are so many old people now, it is too burdensome to give them all the seats. I mean, if they can make it onto the train they can stand. Pregnant women and little kids, though, I happily cede my chair/seat.
0
bdiego
Captain Obvious here. The question should probably be rephrased. I've had women hold the door open and much appreciated it, especially when I was carrying boxes or pushing a stroller. So plainly yes they are polite gestures. Who in their right mind think otherwise?
Now if you're asking if these gestures can be condescending in specific contexts, then of course yes too.
0
LoveUSA
I always say thank you to the guys who open the door for me. It happens so rarely it is sad.
0
maxpower
I gave my seat up for an old bloke the other day, when the old bloke went to get off, some young Japanese guy tried to get the seat and the old man blasted the young guy! He also made sure I got the seat back before he got off.
0
techall
Never out of style. It's the way I was raised and it comes naturally now. By the way, guys who don't show chivalry make those of us who do look GOOD.
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dolphingirl
This question seems to refer to chivalry towards women and not just general good manners toward everyone.
I don't like idea of a man holding a door open for me just because I am a women but I do like the idea of everyone having good manners towards everyone around them. It just makes your day that much nicer. And if people would only smile a little more here...sigh...
0
DuraAce
It's all about manners. That is the only way you are going to get on in the world.
Without manners, a person has nothing.
And, yes, I agree, this should not just be about manners from a man towards a woman. It is universal.
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norinrad21
I only do it for old people and pregnant women.
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lostrune2
I give up my seat to a woman on the subway....
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the_sicilian
I still hold doors open, and I'll move the seat out for my wife, and give up a seat so others may sit. It's just general human kindness and compassion. Nothing wrong with that.
0
timtak
There is at least one psychology paper which shows that gentlemanly beliefs/behaviour towards women correlates with belief that women are inferior to men. Glick and Fiske (1996) "An Ambivalent Alliance: Hostile and Benevolent Sexism as Complementary Justification for Gender Inequality" http://www32.homepage.villanova.edu/robert.w.caverly/00000487-200102000-00001.pdf
0
Fadamor
I'll still hold doors open for women whether it's considered "outmoded" or not. If a woman objects, she has the option of standing there berating me and making a scene while I hold the door open or simply walking through. It's her choice and it won't change my practice of holding doors open one bit.
0
Trapped
I could say that you are not doing what Roman's do while you are in Rome, or that you are enforcing your own beliefs on another country's culture when you defer a seat or hold a door, but I am 'guilty' of chivalry too(, though not consistently as far as trains are concerned). Remember, thankless/disgruntled/pitifully-proud recipient, I don't do it because you are a lady, I do it because I am a gentleman.
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maxpower
I dont think this is a matter of chivalry or manners.
It is more a case of common sense.
0
PeregrineSmythe
I love Japan: manners are totally unnecessary for everyday life.
I often think that manners are an antiquated relic of past societal norms. In that respect, I think that Japan is a thoroughly modern, progressive society.
0
JohnBecker
@PerigrineSmythe: manners, civility, common courtesy and thoughtfulness make it much easier for people to live together, whether it's in Podunk or the most densely populated metropolis in the world.
Manners are certainly part of everyday life in Japan. Maybe not the same manners as where you or I come from, but manners nonetheless.
Unrelated: I'm sure I'm not the only one here who remembers "Gallant and Goofus" from Highlights magazine...
0
Icewind007
I'd give up my seat for the elderly, not just an elderly woman. I'd give my seat up for a person and their overactive child, not just a woman and a child. I open doors for anyone who looks like they could use assistance. Not just for women.
Yes, it is so outdated that some are rightfully insulted when someone takes the time to do such a simple gesture for someone else who could have done it just as easily. Treat people equally and proper judgment and more respect will be had by both parties.
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MrDarryl
These gestures are practiced by those with decency. Decency will never get old or go out of style. Courtesy is contagious.
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gaijinfo
depends on the woman. My girl? Yes. the loud, obnoxious girl shouting into her keitai, clicking her heels, and trailing the stench of cigarettes? no.
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mrskit
men hold the door open for me all the time,,,,,maybe because i 'smile' (hubby says its because im one of the good looking gaijins,,,) but it happens in aussie and kiwiland and england too,, i think smiling and also saying thank you are two things that are rare these days SO SMILE PEOPLE (and show a bit of leg ;D )
0
proudnippon
nothing wrong with these customs. Just because 90% of other people gave up on them doesn't mean I have to stop.
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Kureigu3
It's the same thing as putting the toilet seat back down after use. I don't give it a second thought.
0
brotokyo
mrskit:
if I show a bit of leg people will laugh
0
ratpack
Got to love it when you do open the door for people in this neck of the woods and they walk in as if the doors opened all by themselves with not even a hint of a thank you or sideways glance.......kind of makes you wish you could go back a few seconds in time and have the chance to slam the door in their face!!!!!!!
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IronBeard
I second that ratpack
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alladin
I think it is out of politeness that men do these things for women. In actuality, the days of doing these things has passed and in today`s society no one seems to want to do these things anymore. If these practices was in effect in everyones lives, this world would be a much nicer and more wholesome place to live.
0
smodgy
My once parter could not stand the level of everyday politeness in New Zealand when we lived there. She felt everyone was hypocritical and overly fake. One comment I remember was,"Why do people insist on telling you to have a nice day, with a fake smile, when they really couldn`t give a damn how your day turned out". She also found it condescending when a man tried to help her with her chair. I then moved to her country of notoriously rude and arrogant people and noticed how well being genuine, direct and treated as complete equals really can work. There was no pent up anger you knew exactly who your friends were and overall a very healthy society. So on that note, I think while it is certainly fine to help women with these things if you are raised to believe it is the right thing to do but yes it is probably an old-fashioned remenant of a time when women were seen as less capable than men. Still, it has its place in society today with gestures differing from culture to culture.
0
taiko666
I didn't think they ever had a place in Japanese society. They certainly don't today. Travelling on trains in Tokyo with my pregnant wife has convinced me of that.
In the west, feminism has seen to it that chivalrous manners are now considered boderline sexist by PC fascists. Yet it seems all but the most radically feminist women still expect to be treated differently.
And even if/when the PC loons eradicate the forms of chivalry we're discussing, you can bet that, until the end if time, if your car tyre gets a puncture in the pouring rain, it will always be the man who has to get out and fix it.
0
skipbeat
The Japanese people are raised differently than the people making the comments on JT. It's not like the majority of the Japanese people know the proper etiquette in regards to Westerns. My suggestion is for someone to open a Western etiquette service and teach the Japanese persons who are interested in Western etiquette when interacting with Westerns in various settings along with Japanese etiquette.
0
rodgerthedodger
Manners are all well and good coming from gaijin, but good manners are not always shown by the Japanese. Maybe it's just me but on many occasion the local populus have been less than polite, to the point of taking my shopping bag of the checkout and replacing it with their own! prompting the response watashi wa saki desu! people pushing in front of me on the train to be either first on or off! I once stood inches away from the door to prevent anyone pushing in front and by god I couldn't believe it when someone stepped sideways in front of me. Is it just me or have others out their experienced this? Japanese manners in todays society are no longer a requirement and are typicaly two faced.
0
The758
I hold doors for everyone, not just women. Reactions are mixed: sometimes I get completely blanked, sometimes the person gets flustered, and just the other day an older salaryman said ARIGATOU! with a big smile. I suppose deep inside somtimes I'm polite to people just to see their reaction.
I'll admit, it's difficult trying to be a gentleman when a group of Koda Kuma/Hamazaki Ayumi clones push past you, or a whole family looks at you like you've got six heads as you hold the door open feeling like an jackass. What's worse is the Japanese enryou where even when you offer your seat, they won't take it. You practically have to wrestle them to the ground.
As for pushing/getting bumped, it annoys the hell out of me sometimes. I try to put it into perspective, however. Back home if you bump someone (or vice versa) you'd be lucky if they didn't glare at you, or start verbally harassing you (I've seen that happen far too often.)
0
Mikanojo
I guess i should begin by confessing that i am a girl. I know that some people will think then that mai answer will be biased in some way, or that i have been spoiled or that i feel wrongly that girls deserve special treatment because we are girls - NONE of that is true. What i honestly feel is that holding the door for someone else, ANYONE else, is a very polite and courteous thing to do and boy / girl does not matter at all. In many places historically, women always walked behind their men, and so the men would open the door for them and it was not always politeness; some times it is just showing the woman where the man expects her to go. Doing things like taking out a chair for you can sometimes also feel like the man is controlling in a way, directing - you sit here.. but most of the time it just feels like someone has done something polite for me out of courtesy and if they do i smile and bow mai head and say arigatou and they know that they did something that was appreciated. I think politeness should never lose its place in any society, and i will also say that when i see a someone who does NOT hold the door for others, that reflects badly on them, just as seeing someone holding the door is to me evidence of politeness. Being polite wins points with me - being thoughtless never helped anyone ne?
0
im3ngs
"Outmoded gestures of politeness"?? When is it out of fashion to be polite?
0
ratpack
Wow you should experience the manners in China for a while. After you have been there for longer than the average tourist, you will think Japan is heaven. There is no pushing in like the Chinese pushing in.
0
pointofview
These are all acts of kindness and there is nothing negative about treating people in this manner. It`s up to the individual to decide what he/she should do.
0
Farmboy
Well, of course it's outmoded, and some people interpret it as a self-promoting male gesture that implies that women are too weak and helpless to take care of themselves. If it's done with good intent, though, most women think it's sort of quaint, and accept it in the spirit it was intended, maybe with a quick smirk while they think how old-fashioned you are, but at least you don't throw food while seated at the table, like their last date did.
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miyazawa3
After I rase it up my wife put it down, the toilet seat when she use it.
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VelvetRosetta
I agree it is up to the individual, I for one open doors and hold them open for others at times but I am not the type that expects ppl to do these things but when they do it does not go un- noticed I always say ty, it is a nice gesture...but not something that should be expected..
0
sfjp330
Certain amount of genuine arrogance is attractive to women. Women likes men who are slightly on the edge but gentle when it counts. They really don't want nice guys.
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Richard_III
Even though Japanese generally don't have very good manners anymore, many of them are aware that this is the case. Just look at the posters that the Tokyo Metro have put up telling people to be more polite and considerate to others. This is a telling campaign.
That said, I think manners have gone through an irreversible decline - I can see little chance that these posters will make any improvement.
0
supemorgan8
I thinking the people commenting on here are predominantly located in large Japanese cities. Tokyo, Osaka, and their surrounding areas. Mainly because the work they can find (English Teaching) is needed in the big cities. I lived out in the mountains in Iwate (Hachimantai Shi) for about two years and I found nothing but incredible people who had amazing manners. People who barely knew you yet would do anything for you. Now of course when you go to Tokyo and everyone is in a rush and does not have time to focus on anything other than getting to work, it seems like they dont have manners or regard for their surroundings. Its simply a bi-product of big city life. Being polite never goes out of style though, Japanese folk know that as well.
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JA_Cruise
I think they definitely have a place if that is what the individual inclines to do. Just today out of politeness, I opened the door to let an older gentleman through and was quite surprised and thanked me with a sumimasen. Japanese women who have not lived abroad are not used to this and are usually more appreciative, and those very westernized Japanese girls aren't as thankful for the gesture, guess they just expect it. In any event, regardless whether it is a big bustling city or not, I do and usually get good results.
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crazygaijin
be nice if you want to but if you expect some acknowledgment in return then its your own ego at work and you've done it for the wrong reason.
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MistWizard
Outmoded? OF COURSE IT IS! What fool do you see rushing from meters away to open a door JUST because its a woman? There are a million reasons to open a door for ANYONE, but their gender alone is NOT one of them. I have opened or held the door open for both genders, all ages, with loads in their hands, or nothing, pregnant or not, handicapped or not. But the only time I ever rushed to the door was if there was danger even if minimal, such as a child getting hit by it or someone dropping what they were carrying. Rushing to be the first to open the door for a "lady" is not manners. Its as cheesy and retarded as the smiles the so called "gentlemen" who do it often produce. Yuk. But I will say this: when you open a door for someone for good reason, and it happens to be an attractive woman, when she appreciates it its like no other appreciation! But its a sap who goes out of their way to get it.
0
Mikanojo
crazygaijin has written very well when they wrote:
Mai gifu said the same thing in a different way - he told me that he has never opened doors for someone because they were women; he holds the door because he is a gentleman and it has nothing to do with who is walking through the door if they are women or not. He does it because he feels it is a polite thing to do, part of being courteous to the society around him. It is not about seeking attention or appreciation - and that would be the ego and expected acknowledgment that crazygaijin wrote about. It is simply done because it is the polite thing to do and has no deeper meaning for him than that. If i am walking alone and am first at a public door then i am more than willing to hold it for others for the same reason.. it is simply polite manners. Some people have been taught to be polite.
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genji17
In America Guy holds door for women...sexual harrasment claim could be filed. Same women at coffee with her friends
chivalry is deadso not just outmoded...potentially career ending!
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cracaphat
People with good manners show that they were brought up well and know when to show social etiquette without considering whether its for a male or a female.You cant buy class.
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KSB1978
I hold the door for both men and women. It's just good manners. What the hell is wrong with American society? You can't file a sexual harrasment charge for that??
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JA_Cruise
@Genji17 - You don't know what ur talking about... have you even been to America? Wake up!! Be a Man!
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peachy871
Holding doors for others, holding out a chair, etc, are all just common human courtesies; random acts of kindness. I sincerely appreciate when someone does something like that for me and I do the same for others. It just makes people feel good when someone does something considerate for them. The small things like that really count.
And of course, it should go without saying, in this day and age, that women and men should be able to extend little kindnesses like that both to each other and members of their own sex. Just because a member of the opposite sex happens to do something nice for you does not mean anyone needs to jump to conclusions about it being a sexist gesture; that individual could just be (gasp!) genuinely kind and thoughtful toward their fellow human beings!!!
Thoughtful gestures and good manners go a long way and you never know, by being polite and doing something as small as taking a few seconds' break out of this rat race and opening a door for another person, could just make that person's day!
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the_harper
I was once berated by an American woman for opening a door for her. Nobody else has ever complained. I will hold a door open for anyone regardless of gender if I happen to be there. It seems to me that there's very few people who dislike politeness. This thread reminded me of a quote from Heinlein:
"Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naïve, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best."
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MistWizard
How did you know she was American? LOL!
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ultradodgy
MistWizard: Because she was Hilary Clinton.
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stormcrow
This issue is rather strange to me. My father always taught me to open doors for women and children and to let them go through a door first. I even hold doors open for other men, as I'm sure many other men do. Nowadays, however, some women consider such acts as discriminatory and chauvinistic. Forutunately for me, I married a woman who is more feminine and ladylike.
I recall one time holding a door open for an American woman who happened to be behind me. She became quite upset and excitedly informed me that she was perfectly capable of opening the door by herself. It seemed rather nutty to me as it was the same act I would taken had she been a he. The funny thing is that women like this want to be treated in this manner by other men, but even men don't treat other men in this manner. It would be considered rude.
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nieldevi
The person with little control for themself is the one that seeks to control others. Respect for the Mothers of our species may be more practicable than polite. It just makes good sense to protect our women and children. Little expressions of charity demonstrate our understanding and acceptance of social mechanisations. Conversely, it appears to me that Japanese males and females appear to have the situation in hand and that whatever customs are existent very likely are an act of mutual consent. It has always been my experience that people will tell you if they don't like something, and like water, it will find it's common level. Helping others makes you feel good, but how you help is how you learned it.
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sf2k
manners of custom and common courtesy gestures are not equivalent in Japan and its a wonder this is even posted on JT
Gave a seat to an elderly woman once without a second thought, and the guy next to me guffawed. I don't care.
Quit making this a race or a contest. Just treat each other well.
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blunderbuss
In my generation -- i.e., I grew up in the 80s -- young women did not even remotely behave like ladies. They behaved like ckteasers and bches. They did not deserve chivalry in any sense of the word.
Giving a seat to an elderly woman is one thing. Holding a door for some broad is another.
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TumbleDry
After reading a few comments, I just gave up. Japanese, no manners, blablabla etc. Am I living in a different dimension in Japan? Where are you living guys? I am a man and Japanese men or women, keep the doors open for me, keeps the elevator door open until I get out. In my bus or in the train, I often see people giving up their seats to elderly people.
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cwhite
why should it be for only women. I often hold the door open for kids, men, dogs and cats...
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YongYang
Door culture. It just hasn't become a thing here.
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lorenaisabel19
As far as holding a chair, I don't do that unless the person is elderly or a pregnant woman. But I'm a woman and I hold the door for both male and female. Is just common courtesy! That is a gesture that shouldn't be lost.
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Columhcille
wait are we talking about America or Japan culture here? I didn't think that door-holding existed in Japan like it did in America?? Giving up seats and stuff, sure.. but.. I think it's selfish to not let someone hold a door or whatever for you if they offer. Understanding good intent and allowing someone else to feel appreciation for good-doing is important. Just as important as it is for ourselves to be able to do likewise kind things for others and also feel appreciated for those things. Being in customer service I'm not used to other ppl holding doors and such for me because I'm always offering courtesies to other people and it feels weird when others do it for me lol. But I still appreciate good upbringing in evidence through 'common' courteous acts. I don't think that those courtesies will or should ever go 'out of style'. If people have a problem with showing courtesy to them, that's their problem for being so ignorant.
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Columhcille
wow a lot of ppl on here have a very different experience of japan vs how I experienced it 5 years ago. Interesting! I want to go back now and see if my exerience is any different! I guess I'm such a positive person anyway it takes a lot for me to think poorly of someone. .. well whatever.. as for " (last week even I saw a guy give a small kickup to a girls leg because she didnt let him pass, its ridiculous). " comment above all I can say is 'lol' wow I'm too much of a firey redhead to let that one slide without at least a shouting match...deffinitely some kind of confrontation. Lol! however, I know PLENTY of AMERICAN men who view women as second class citizens, too.. probably worse than Japanese men view women. To be sure, around the world, there is no shortage of that.
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seaforte03
My Dad used to always tell me I should pull out the chair before a woman sits down - but won't she fall down?
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smithinjapan
I open the door for anyone, male or female. I HAVE gotten the evil eye from a couple of women back home when I opened a door for them, but had they said anything I would have said the exact same thing I said in the first sentence of my post. If they gave me grief I'd likely tell them off. I have little patience for people with such an inflated sense of self-importance.
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Himajin
Or, 'elitist'...some people completely misunderstand the purpose of rules of etiquette, thinking they are a set of traps to trip up those not of a certain social class. Nothing is further from the truth. A unified code of behavior makes things easier, not harder. Whether it's wearing black for a funeral, writing thank you notes or letters, or even just wearing a skirt out to dinner, an attitude I'm running up against often when back in the US is a haughty 'Oh, we don't do* that *anymore' 'Well, who are you showing off for?' and other ugly remarks inferring that any polite gesture of respect for whatever reason is stuffy,elitist behavior. It seems like childish rebellion to me, to eschew any and all mannerly gestures. I was taken aback by people at my father's funeral dressed in hiking clothes (boots included) and pastel sweaters, jeans and T-shirts.
smithinjapan, I think American women are hyper-sensitive in these matters. You have to have a pretty fragile ego to think that having a door opened for you means that the opener thinks you are beneath them. I too, open doors for people. I held the door for the woman behind me leaving Dunkin' Donuts in my home state last time I was back, and she scowled at me! She was holding a tray of 5 coffees and had a box of donuts, but she was ripped that I held the door for her...she glared at me while she walked to her car, so they don't just act that way with men!
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Loki520
The fact that a question like this can be asked tells you all you need to know about society today...
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seaforte03
Well - we can either just be rude to everyone or start sharing courtesy and hospitality. Loki520's experience sounds like being courteous is akin to "casting pearls to swine"...
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