Sunday May 27, 2012

Foreign women in Japan sometimes remark how hard it is to get a date with foreign men. What are your views on this?

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  • 0

    rjd_jr

    Well, considering that the majority of males in Japan are of Japanese ethnicity, I think it's relatively hard to date "foreign" men. But I'd like to read or hear of anecdotes from REAL foreign women here. Besides, why not date Japanese males, that's what foreign males do when they live in another country. And I hope not to hear the usual "I'm not attracted to drunk salarymen/weird type" excuses.

  • 0

    Brainiac

    I've dated both foreign and Japanese women over the years. As a foreign male, I have never distinguished between the two. However, foreign women obviously are outnumbered, so if they want to be noticed, they have to try a bit harder. One example, and I know women readers will attack me for it, is in the way they dress. Whenever I go out for dinner with a Japanese woman, I wear a suit and they always dress beautifully. On the other hand, in too many cases, I've arranged a date with a Western woman. I'm in my suit and she shows up in jeans. Why are Western women so averse to wearing a dress or skirt. Even in my office, where there are a number of foreign women, only one wears a dress.

    Anyway, it will be interesting to read what JT's women readers have to say about it. But ladies, don't be do desperate to land a foreign guy in Japan. If the derogatory and sexual comments some male readers on this site make about Japanese women, then you certainly wouldn't want to have anything to do with them.

  • 0

    rjdsr

    If the derogatory and sexual comments some male readers on this site make about Japanese women, then you certainly wouldn't want to have anything to do with them.

    It's the Internet, it's not real. People can make anonymous comments and they have no meaning at all.

  • 0

    cleo

    If you meet someone you like, what does it matter whether he's a local or a foreigner?

  • 0

    dany505

    It's like I always say...When I Rome..I Will always date the locals no matter where I'am. Don't be so shallow ladeis you can meet a nice guy of any nationality they don't have to be foreign. Don't limit yourself is what I'm trying to say.

  • 0

    Nessie

    ...because foreign women can't be bothered trying and they tend to have a complex about competing and they get paranoid about the j-women friends one is bound to have....

    What'd I miss?

  • 0

    realist

    Where exactly in Japan would foreign women find a foreign man to date? That is perhaps the question that should be asked!!!

  • 0

    DXXJP

    I usually only see foreign women in roppongi. A word of advice what you find in roppongi leave in roppongi.

    Seriously though its going to be hard for the women activist to compete with a little miss submissive here.

  • 0

    spotehun

    We are in Japan, what's the big fuss about finding foreigners? You wont people from elswhere? Go elswhere. I didn't come here to date foreigners... Moreover, to be honest (and I come from a country which is pretty famous for it's beautiful women), they way J women dress is already a lot more feminine than most of the foreign ladies. Not to talk about the difference in looks. I mean, we speak about huge differences... the eyes, the hair, the figure, the height... for foreign men, J ladies are egzotic, and so on.

  • 0

    Triumvere

    Not to be overly stereotypical, but the reason seems fairly obvious. A lot of foriegn men who come to Japan do so in part because they are interested in the the J-ladies, while a lot of foriegn women who come don't seem to have much interest in the J-men. That kind of leaves them SOL.

  • 0

    madammiz

    Well I for one, am a foreign lady and happily married to a lovely Japanese man. It is hard for foreign women to date foreign men because yes, most of them are interested in J ladies! However, it is possible. And besides who would turn up in a pair of jeans for a date? Certainly not I! (and I am not a skirt/dress kinda gal). However, I dont wear jeans on a date - are dress trousers acceptable?? I think so!

  • 0

    flammenwerfer

    Well I dont know about the statistics, but haven't you all noticed a good many foreign gals in Japan are 25+ in the BMI stakes? J-ladies are much more feminine and have much less attitude, so if you want to have a enjoyable relaxing time who are you going to date? I have known many foreign girls who got angry about it, I guess the truth hurts...

  • 0

    Triumvere

    For the record, ladies, I would be more than happy to date a girl in jeans.

    (Personally, while the feminine look can be quite a turn on, I think the J-ladies take the high heels a bit to far sometimes. When a girl shows up in jeans and sneakers, it gives me the impression that she is pretty cool, laid back and not overly concerned about appearance. Obviously, one should dress for the occassion, but I am not looking for someone to be made up all the time or at the process as some sort of formalized ritual. Ideally, you'd want a mix of both - a girl that can be casual as well as feminine.)

  • 0

    romulus3

    well I for one was in the bar the other night listening to foreign ladies spout the "F" word about at full cry. One even said..."mmmm, smell my fart? Niiiccceeee!" to a raucous chorus of laughter from her beefy friends.

    well at first 1 or 2 looked nice but at that point I was totally off them and sought greener pastures with a couple of slim, charming, sophisticated woman of Korea, one of which I am dating now. I guess the question should be "Non asian woman struggle in Japan".

  • 0

    Azrael

    I am somewhat surprised by the comments above. I am a foreign woman, but I came to Japan strictly to study (two years left till Graduation now). Due to the Hague Convention regarding International Child Abduction which Japan won't ratify any time soon (my most powerful reason) and irreconcilable cultural differences (mainly, I am not willing to be submissive) I am not interested in Japanese men. Some have potential, but... I wouldn't have the heart to pluck them out of Japan; they could wilt and die. I've not found ONE that after some sounding was not expecting ME to adapt to his needs without him conceding one bit towards mine. One guy trying to woo me told me once, he'd never be able to eat anything for breakfast but Japanese style food. Was that a subliminal or what? How about speaking my language? That's a basic (if you think long-term); I have a family and a nice culture behind me to share, too. As for dating foreign men, the situation is rather similar. "Foreign" men here would also be "foreign" where I come from, so I don't see any advantages they supposedly hold over Japanese men. I don't have anything against international marriages, but I simply have not seen anything I like enough here. Besides, men around here (Japanese AND foreign) want the girl to accommodate THEIR needs. They have a preset, typically based on an "Asian" stereotype of woman whipped up by Hollywood, requiring ladies to fit a certain curriculum: they mistake stammering, indecisiveness and ruffly dresses for femininity, they ask for a range of BMI below 20, and a anime-esque adoration towards their male mightiness (ie, they always have to be right and always make all decisions; including who may their girl befriend or not). I know every country has a "female type" they adore and exaggerate; but it is a stark truth that most of the men that come to Japan on their own, and are not here by work or study, are here to fish for Asian girls. Women that come to Japan on similar conditions are not looking for Japanese men (mostly). I think that is the main reason why there's this perceived "difficulty" for foreign ladies to date foreign men. I think the same applies abroad. You usually get these men saying "I love the local women!" as a pickup line in a fetish-esque way in MY country as well.

    I am aware not all foreign men in Japan are so shallow, but most of them in visible places are. Dating depends also on where you look. Like someone mentioned Roppongi and partying areas, well... what would a woman expect to find there? A fling, nothing more. That is not dating.

  • 0

    illsayit

    romulus3, so gallant that you want to debate it with foreign women! talk about 2 faced....

    i own only skirts cept for 1 pair of skin tight pants, and if i wear them, i usually end up pregnant!...i dont mind the f word as in the bed type, ill even say it real loud then!

    i just had some j-ladies tell me they were going to get me in zubon!? am i missing something?

    forget foreign men, in Japan, its a must to taste the locals......though if you are looking for foreign men, there is a couple down the road, in fact there is quite a variety of flavours around!

  • 0

    illsayit

    Azrael, why do you think foreign women arent looking at j-men, absurd!

  • 0

    sharky1

    This doesn't sound like news. In fact I think someone made the whole thing up. How many were surveyed? What is the margin of error? What were the questions on the survey? Right...just made it up.

  • 0

    Azrael

    Illsayit, I will give you an answer from my perspective, which is not necessarily right or wrong in all cases:

    Japanese men are attractive for ladies; I never said they are not. However, there's a subtle communication problem. Being a foreign woman from the West and a Latin woman, I am used to being flattered by men. Men come up to you and in different ways by usually verbally, they tell you nice things (and vulgar things too, but it depends on where you are and other details). Men that flatter you are NOT necessarily trying to pick you up. Simple friends also have nice words. Japanese men don't say ANYTHING to flatter ladies, and that may be confusing. I used to think I was very ugly here, because many would stare and immediately avert their eyes if I noticed! Different body language is another language barrier.

    When you see someone you like, you look at them (NOT oogling, that's rude) and they look at you. Sometimes, conversation may be initiated (like the oldest break-the-ice pick up in the world; they pretend they don't have a watch and ask you what time is it). Here if you look back at them, men get flustered and 80% of the time, disappear.

    Japanese men have a mind-preset that Western women are pushy, determined and strong-willed - characteristics which in Japan have negative connotations. While you learn to speak Japanese, lady teachers emphasize the use of "feminine Japanese" and subtle ways to show men you are not a threat and you walk behind them. That is... interesting, but after trying one generally finds a middle ground and stay in it. That keeps your sanity , however does not attract Japanese men.

    Men that come up to you are too shy to openly say anything. Thus a relation with a typical Japanese guy may take years to flourish. My visa is not that long. My Japanese girlfriends say, one has to chase the guy because they don't make up their minds by themselves. Where I come from, I am the one that gets chased. It's a bit of a punch to one's pride, to chase men, really. Japan is on the other side of the Looking Glass!

    All the above are deterrents. Many Japanese guys say, Western girls don't look at them, but that is not really the case. My best guess is, Western girls are perplexed, then confused, try but get tired and turn away.

    Western men on the other hand, are open and direct; they walk up to Japanese women and bewilder them with their "openness." Many heart magazines online say, Japanese girls like the fact that for Western men honne and tatemae tend to be one and the same. However, they also get hurt sometimes because their subtle signals of affection go ignored (because Western men are not culturally trained to read those).

    Ijou-desu. To finalize, my perspective is that of a female scholar, moving in scholar circles. I don't frequent Roppongi (just an example). In my field, I am considered more of a young man than a young woman; amazing, isn't it? I voice my professional opinions, I ask when I need to ask and I speak about my ideas; I have strong opinions. It's my job. On the other hand, I turn heads in Japan, but I am intimidating. I try to find a middle ground, but for example, one of my sensei glared at me when I tried to serve a round of tea; he says I am not Japanese and I shouldn't acquire submissive ways. Others can serve the tea. So you see, I am still trying to decipher life in Japan.

  • 0

    Farmboy

    Many foreign men have crossed the ocean to be away from foreign women, so I suppose they're lurking somewhere out of sight.

  • 0

    illsayit

    Azrael, of course the language is different, if you dont like it, go home.

    But that is a little harsh, as you sound young and lost. Japanese men dont say anything? You have to actually talk with them yk, you cant just bat your eyes and think it will work, with any man. I think you have stereotyped too much, and also you stereotype ALL men. Im guessing you dont know how to wait? It does make it more delicious yk.

    And reading where you are coming from, I am a little worried about your stability.....it can be confusing when coming to a foreign country, but you better learn that this is not your country, and trying to decipher it will make you more confused. Just relax and be yourself, even if that means you want to serve tea, and people will accept you-or at least the ones worthy of being a friend. Dont worry, you sound very female to me.

  • 0

    Azrael

    Illsayit, that's the typical speech one gets from older Japanese women. You don't like it, go home. I think that is beyond the point; I am simply telling my analysis of the things I have seen here in Japan. I am not waiting for anything. I simply enjoy life as it is. I've been in Japan and experienced long enough to assure you, my previous assertions are not based on hearsay.

    As I mentioned before, I am a scholar; I am here for my studies only. I already found the middle ground I like in Japan, and it's great fun. What brought me to Japan is the technical skills and a scholarship program; not prospective partners.

    I am confused by your worry about my stability. I am financially secure, and I have a stable environment where I study and work. I have met nice people and nice men, but I simply not met my type. Maybe I am just a little picky when it comes to men. Thanks, but you don't need to worry.

  • 0

    Nessie

    However, [j-women] also get hurt sometimes because their subtle signals of affection go ignored (because Western men are not culturally trained to read those).

    I'd never had women stuff their numbers in my pockets before j-girls in Japan. I wonder if that could've been a subtle signal for me to do something. Thinking...Thinking...

  • 0

    romulus3

    illsayit ,

    what the hell were you talking about? was that English? I have no idea what you were on about at all.

    lets get controversial. the woman posters let lose with novel sized self justifications. not one man read them. we skipped the lot and went back to our simple sentence asian lovers. western woman, stop being self important, womans lib, equal to men seekers.

    Its a massive turn off because your aggression is disgusting. men are not rapist, child abusers. get over it.

  • 0

    Betting

    In the end, does it really matter? Japanese men are are the overwhelming majority here, non-Japanese are a tiny minority. Then the non-Japanese are teachers, professionals etc. etc., so the chance of everyone finding something for them must be quite small, no?

    Illsayit, I think you should really go back and read Azrael's post, it's pretty good.

  • 0

    cracaphat

    Foreign guys over here have a better chance of hooking up with a local girl than with a gaijin girl.And the quality of both sexes coming here has gone down so dramatically that it's the uglies hooking up with the fuglies.

  • 0

    Sarge

    Foreign guy: Hey, baby, can I -

    Western woman: Get lost, nerd.

    Foreign guy: Hey, baby, can I get you a drink?

    Japanese woman: Sure!

  • 0

    pathat

    Many Japanese women are simply divine.

    Many foreign women in Japan are simply bovine.

    And what is average among Japanese women is still pretty darn good.

    So why should a foreign guy pay attention to a foreign woman unless he really doesn`t have any interest in Japanese women?

    Japanese women are the best.

  • 0

    lipscombe

    past 10 years I have had hundreds of female western colleagues in Japan and most made this criticism at some point or another. still they complained when 'ogled', complained when ignored and were hostile to western men in Japan. wanted tohave their cake and eat it, and by the size of most of them they took that quite literally

  • 0

    Nessie

    And J-women tend to be better at giving the diplomatic brush off, because they tend to be used to having to deal with the fragile egos of j-guys.

  • 0

    Lily77

    I am a western woman who has never found it difficult to date western men in Japan or abroad. I still however married a Japanese man.

  • 0

    cleo

    I can't say I'm particularly attracted to the average Japanese man. Or to the average foreign man.

    I've got the only one worth having (though I admit I may be slightly biased) :-) and his nationality / ethnic type were/are immaterial to our relationship. We fit, and that's all that matters.

    I'm positively turned off by the immature uncouth types who seem to be having a field day insulting women on this thread. Why would any woman, foreign or local, want to give them the time of day?

    Azrael - I think you've got it wrong about 'irreconcilable cultural differences'; not all Japanese men expect rice and misoshiru for breakfast, nor do they all want 'submissive' women. (Mr. Cleo is a muesli-for-breakfast man - and if I started being submissive he'd probably think I was ill.) But you're obviously looking to the future, and if you've made up your mind that you intend to leave Japan after graduation you're probably doing the right thing in not looking for a permanent relationship here. A very sensible lady. Good luck with your studies.

    Nessie - come on now, it's well known (to everyone except the martians, apparently...) that the martian ego is eggshell-delicate regardless of the country of origin. The j-guy ego tends to be easier to deal with, because it's out there for all to see, with giant 'Fragile this way up' signs on it. Other martians are sometimes better at hiding their infirmities, which makes (some) venusians think that their egos are made of steel - until it shatters, and then the shrapnel is all over the place. Very messy.

  • 0

    Azrael

    Thanks Ms. Cleo ^^;

  • 0

    PuffinMuffin

    by reading the posts, in general it seems that foreign women and men come to Japan for different reasons.

    It might be difficult for both if they have issues with their egos and competition, for they are in Japan and stand out in some way or another. I sense external/peer pressure of some sort. That may not be an ideal/healthy way to start a relationship, but if the topic is about getting a date, how hard can that be?

  • 0

    presidentbaka

    Makes no difference to me...Western or Japanese, I still attract the damn psychotic ones!!

  • 0

    Tatsumaru

    "A man does not insist on physical beauty in a woman who builds up his morale. After a while he realizes that she is beautiful - he just hadn’t noticed it at first." --Lazarus Long

    That quote basically sums up everything. Women generally have it easy in finding male counterparts because usually men come to them in first place. Men are usually far more humbled (they might not show it) by a women interested in them more so than the other way around. Well at least in the Western since of it. Also, there is a rather general Western stigma that men should always ask women. Where in Japan that isnt exactly the case, and to many foreign men it is a breath of fresh air.

    Which leads me to respond to Cleo, even though many women know the Martian/Venusian thinking doesn't mean they act upon that knowledge in everyday interactions, where it really matters.

  • 0

    DanManjt

    My views are:

    When in Rome,

    do the Romans.

  • 0

    buddha4brains

    Well when I arrived in Japan the last thing I wanted was to be around the whiny women I went to uni with. Not all women are whiny - just the ones I hung around with at school. Lesson learned, I found J-women more interesting to be around.

    No one wants to hang around whiners (male or female; foriegn or Japanese) since all they seem to think about is "ME".

  • 0

    Sarge

    presidentbaka - Har!

  • 0

    rjdsr

    Azrael, don't expect people in a foreign country to learn your language.

    Foreign men are great. Just make sure you stay away from Americans, Brits and Aussies and stick to guys from Europe and the Middle East.

  • 0

    madammiz

    I dated both when I lived in Japan - western and Japanese men. They are different kettles of fish and both were equally attractive. Its a matter of finding what fits for you......and I have a great Japanese husband who is just amazing! He likes my independence and the fact I speak my mind. He is ok with me wearing jeans and not skirts. He prefers that I dont wear makeup because he tells me I am gorgeous without it and I dont need it! Not all Western women in Japan are "bovine" as Pathat put it! I think that is rather harsh and the fact that we live in a country where Japanese women are much slimmer than us (due to genetic makeup)..... However if Pathat feels that way about us western gals, then that is his opinion and really we shouldnt care too much about what he or anyone else thinks. If you are comfortable with yourself and your looks and if Western guys arent interested in you, then no big deal! Life is too short!!!!!!

  • 0

    Fair dinkum!

    This is so simple! 90% of the foreign men in Japan are hear to get away from European women.

  • 0

    ebisen

    Hey as a foreign male married with a Japanese lady, I can say that many of you are completely wrong :). For the average foreign female: you should be more open minded about dating j-guys and improve your manners in general. Personally I don't like the j-male way of life (I think they most have the mother complex) but I admit some of them can be really cool. So do your best :).

    For the average foreign guy: You might think the average j-gal is submissive, always agreeing to you, well, you're damn wrong. They are just polite in the beginning, far more polite than the average foreign-gal, but when the discussion gets serios they know how to express they point of view. And no, by "serious" I don't mean shaking it in a one-night-stand :)), but real serious discussion :).

    For the j-gal looking for a f-guy ;): it is far easier than you might think, avoid Roppongi at all costs (look for a real men not for a club-head-boy). Good Luck

  • 0

    northlondon

    Why on earth would Japanese men want to date a woman with intellectual witty conversation, natural blonde hair and real pair of....

  • 0

    Everton2

    I am at a point now where I have to admit, Western women are invisible to me. I just don't see them anymore, too fat, too opinionated, have an inflated perception of their own physical beauty and really don't understand how to dress. And it is just not about wearing jeans or not, its how you put it together - style, design how it fits etc.

    There is no substitute for those Skinny, pigeon towed, bowlegged Prado wearing Louie Vuitton Japanese women. Their butts fit in the palm of your hands with nothing spilling over the side, there is just no excess, i just love them!!

  • 0

    northlondon

    Everton my man, try dating the ones who wear Prada, they're not as fake as the ones who wear Prado...

  • 0

    Everton2

    By the way you can find these women in Omotesando, thats where by office is when I am in Japan

  • 0

    Neo_Rio

    It's quite simple really... Japanese women try VERY hard at doing themselves up in ways to get men - and quite frankly they outdress, outmanner, outfitness, and lastly but most importantly - put out - more than the average western women.

  • 0

    dany505

    neo i like your word play true true

  • 0

    jerseyboy

    As a foreign man, engaged to a foreign woman, whom I happened to meet in Roppongi, I am apparently not in step with any of the blatant and silly stereotypes posted so far. (I guess if I was we'd have not had 6 great years together.) And, lucky for me Everton, her butt does not even "spill over the sides" of my hands. Nor, is she pigeon towed or bowlegged. Although she is on the thin side, and occassionally wears Prada. Japanese or foreign -- hope you all find someone who makes you feel as happy and complete as I have.

  • 0

    northlondon

    hope you all find someone who makes you feel as happy and complete as I have.

    May I recommend 'OL Bombers' in Roppongi. Situated somewhere between Mos Burger and Seventh.

  • 0

    notimpressed

    Foreign women are just too mean...its not submissive to be nice... Even back home I got sick of the local girls and dated foreign girls there. Western women think any type of attempt at conversation is you hitting on them. ie: "hello" , and a roll of the eyes as a reply. Did I say something wrong?And they stiull expect us to chase around after them\? Western women have proved often (obviously not always) to be arrogant, egotistical, anti-male, Bad tempered, and generally unkind. The exceptions were far and few between. Any complaints will be linked to the fact that you have far too many tickets on yourself, and therefore can not sell even one. SOmeone also mentioned the vulgarity of foreign women, and that is another put off. You dont have to be demure and girly, but do you have to be gross? The behaviour of some foreign women here, good example being at the penis festival, ( I forget the name ) recently that I saw in thier facebook photos, is just disgusting and embarrassing. Its not just where you come from or how you look, foreign ladies, its mostly the reputation that precedes you...Aggressive, shrewish, vulgar, masculine. Foreign women have such a long list of demands of what they want in a man, but dont seem to accept that maybe we have some expectations too, and quite fair and natural expectations I might add. Foreign or local, If you are attractive, and friendly, you shouldnt have too much problem. I would at the end of the day prefer a girl with a more compatible culture to spend my days with, but preferably one with a lot less issues. Its more likely that I will find a Japanese girl who is willing to meet me halfway than another westerner.

  • 0

    boycottolympics

    Why would I wanna date a fat, rude arrogant cow when I can have a slim dumb slave?

  • 0

    northlondon

    Guys, guys, guys. I think the stereotyping here is going a little too far don't you think ? I am married to a Japanese woman and I am attracted to Asian girls. However, I can think of scores of Japanese ladies who you would not want a serious relationship with and I can think of scores of reasons why dating a western woman would be more fun and attractive.

    Someone pointed out earlier that the reason why most of us foreign guys are in Japan is because we have some kind of relationship with a Japanese girl or because something happened back home with western girls. Therefore most of us here are not exactly neutral observers are we ?

    The pros of Japanese girls: usually still slim after childbirth/ fashionable/ less conservative in a sexual relationship/ sexy. The pros of western girls: not afraid to keep their intellect the same as their partners/ do not automatically expect a date to pay for everything (man, why do Japanese girls expect that ?)/ no issues drinking pints of beer on a date/ good chat.

  • 0

    Wakarimasen

    I love the blithe way in which it is said that ALL Japanese women are slim or small or wear designer duds etc etc. Same as all foreign men are what? Rich? Intelligent? Sensitive lovers? Roppongi hounds. Seems to me to be a reflection of either 1. the foreign losers who come to Japan or 2. the image those whio never make it here have of Japan and it women.

  • 0

    Wakarimasen

    and if western women are so anti-male how come the birthrate in most European countries is way over that in Japan? And how come the press in most European countries agonises over promiscuity and high unmarruied rates of sex etc etc? Possibly it's the posters on this thread who have problems with Western women and find Japan easy because the J-girls don't understand that they would be seen as bottom feeders back in the West.

  • 0

    Patrick Smash

    Japanese women can be pretty useful in ways foreign ones can't be. I think that's a lot of the problem. It's not that western guys dislike western women, but they are partly here to experience differences, and to do what they could not do back home. Add on that nearly all western foreigners I know can easily pick up J-girls, and meet more of them on a day-to-day basis, and that's about it. Personally I would have been happy to date either.

  • 0

    notimpressed

    WAkarimasen...those are some mighty big conclusions you jump to there ...I guess you really dont wakaru haha. If you are a foreign woman and that is your response...I think you just proved the point. Im no bottom feeder, have had no trouble meeting women back home, just find that they are often not very nice. Its not true all thetime, but the girls that are worth having have been few and far between, and none of them were push overs, they were just nice approachable people.

    Birth rates has nothing to with it. You are grasping at straws. What we are talking about is Japan..and Im not from Europe, and Im not from the states. SO Im sure as a foreign woman, you will find something nasty to say, all wrapped up in a stereotype of western men in Japan.

    The fact that so many of us have the opinion couldnt possibly be that its based on some reality? Oh no, we are just scum bag foreign men preying on meek J-girls. Yeah whatever.

    Maybe I should rephrase ever so slightly: where ever I say western women, I mean, "in my experience thus far the women in my own country ...", nah takes too long.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    I think there are a few problems.

    1. Where to meet like minded foreign parnters. I've been in Japan a long time and have very few foreign female friends. I just rarely meet foreign women.

    2. If if you can meet, can you find someone with a similar set of interests, values, etc...? When I have met foreign women in Japan they have been mostly investment expats. While I work in that world, I don't live for it and prefer more liberal creative women as friends or dates. Which I rarely meet in Japan.

    3. Most of my female friends from abroad love Japan. For a visit. They see the male dominated society and submissive J female issue as painful. Why give up relative equality for what most women live with in Japan day to day? So these very interesting, liberal, creative women just don't come here. For a lot of guys those a qualities they are looking for.

    Add these up and it is a big problem on both sides. I think women must be having a hard time finding suitable guys too.

  • 0

    notimpressed

    I do agree however that the dumbass statements by some of the guys here do not paint us in a good light either...its seems to be usually the American men somehow that create the stereotypes of Foreign men in Japan, with all that gung ho, port in harbour, brainwashed by fashion/porn media just as much as women, crass attitude. Just so you know, I was raised to be a gentleman, so even if I think like any red blooded male, it doesn't mean I have to spout(or like hearing) some of the ways that other readers refer to women. We are all different in appearance, and if thats all you look for and can not see beyond it, then I hope you are a perfect looking specimen yourself. Some of the best looking girls in this world are the ugliest people you could ever meet, here and abroad. If you are presentable, and got a good heart, you beat the satanbarbies anyday, (maybe not in one night though).

  • 0

    Triumvere

    Oh great, lets throw some pointless anti-Americanism into the conversation! Did your "upbringing as a gentleman" include anything about avoiding ridiculous stereotyping based on nationality?

    I take my earlier statments back, apparently its impossible to find a foreign man to date in Japan because, if this board is any indication, they are all jerks!

    Moderator: Readers, please keep the discussion civil.

  • 0

    jerseyboy

    notimpressed...Good name -- since your posts leave me singularly unimpressed. You are incredibly narrow-minded and reliant on stereotypes, and WAY TOO defensive to make any rational contribution to this discussion.

  • 0

    northlondon

    This discussion is quite funny. It's like all of a sudden, us guys sound like we actually understand women..

  • 0

    Proffessor

    Foreign women in Japan 'SOMETIMES' remark how hard it is......

    It seems most, if not all postings here are completely out of topic.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    Surprised by the number of stereotypes being tossed around here.

    I'll go out on a limb and say I do understand women at home (US) because most of my close friends are female. So I would guess that foreign women here as unhappy with the behavior of a lot of guys here as much as the rants against women here represent frustrations on the other side.

    I for one miss spending time with a woman who can and will hold her own in a serious conversation. I miss that intelligent spark and intensity that women I know at home have. It is nice to spend time with someone who has her own agenda and life and isn't just waiting to follow you around.

    Now to be fair I know some fantistic Japanese women who are equally wonderful to know. After all it is about the individual and not the nationality in most cases anyway. Though the overall culture here does discourage otherwise smart women from openly behaving so. Which is sad for everyone really.

    Maybe someone should suggest how people can better meet each other and maybe dispell a lot of the misconceptions that are clouding the issue.

  • 0

    Nessie

    Cleo,

    Not saying not foreign male egos are not fragile, just they tend to be more fragile in the case of j-guys. I have a japanese friend who's the exception that proves the rule. He has great confidence, which is a turn-on to j-girls who are used to the ttypically fragile j-guys.

  • 0

    cleo

    Nessie -

    Lots of nots in there, but I get your meaning. My long-running and on-going studies on the subject indicate that while the egos of some j-guys may be more obviously fragile, all male egos (with very few exceptions) are fragile, it's just that some as more adept at covering it up with a show of confidence. - which as you say, can be quite attractive. Men (and women) with cast-iron egos and attitudes to match tend to be pretty insufferable, so I wouldn't say that a lack of a fragile ego was of itself necessarily anything attractive.

  • 0

    Ultradude

    Unless the gaijin gal is rather attractive, most of them are rather hard-up and bitter in my experience. Just stroll down Omotesando on a spring afternoon and you'll see that the average gaijin guy would rather have a bit of intercultural communications.

  • 0

    northlondon

    Aah, yes. Omotesando on a summer weekend and intercultural studies. That ends this debate once and for all people, as there's no coming back from that. Thanks for taking part everyone. See you around...

  • 0

    Nessie

    Unless the gaijin gal is rather attractive, most of them are rather hard-up and bitter in my experience.

    And needlessly so. With a little effort *they *can do fine. But too often they don't make they effort. They're women, is the thinking, why should THEY have to make the effort?

  • 0

    Neo_Rio

    While I do think that Japanese women are generally better at knowing what to do to attract men - I'm not going to claim that they're all perfect either. In fact, there are some Japanese women who think a little TOO professionally about getting men - if you catch my drift. You can easily spot them out because they're typically vacant, passive-aggressive, and deliberately to find rich men. Similarly, I have met some rather nice foreign women here who do take good care of themselves (too few unfortunately)

    In any case, man, woman, Japanese, foreign - if you're not doing your best to improve yourself and make yourself somebody who somebody else would be proud to be with - you have nobody to blame but yourself.

  • 0

    romulus3

    look, lets just get the lion on the line instead of posting all of these sensitive new age male lies. Asian woman are hot, foreign English teacher type woman are not. there. I have said it.

  • 0

    Ultradude

    Took a stroll down Omotesando on a fine spring day years ago with the girlfriend at the time, who happened to be a fellow gaijin. Not a cause and effect but we didn't last long after that...

  • 0

    northlondon

    Vote romulus. 98% of Superdelegates are supporting romulus3 on Super Monday.

  • 0

    aalmeida

    I think the issue is more of proximity than anything else. Irregardless of any motives from the male population in Japan, we most often date those who are in close proximity to us. Proximity for most of us is simply time and distance. Money and a certain level of freedom can shift the size of this phase space. But if you really think about it, we tend to fall in love with people who are near us. And in Japan, for the most part, that means Japanese women. However...

    I think the largest problem with most people is they live at a level of consciousness that is too shallow. Few men have a clear standard of what we want in a relationship. Nor do most women. We fall into things too often. We are far too superficial. Looks, intellect? No one here has talked about relationship depth. Falling in love is still the most powerful experience we can have. Irregardless of nationality.

    Reading the posts, it is hard not to think that most people still have little understanding of how thier own views/frames affect their relationships. I dont think most men expect or even desire half the things they write here.

    In the end, we all want unconditional love. and that requires a reformation of the ego and a strong reframing of the self. It doesnt matter if the girl is foregin or not. Its more a reflection of who you want to be. But there are so few men who even want to think this way. Or women. But imagine if you met someone who just loved you because you are you. no judgements. no criticisms. just absolute heart. would it matter where they came from?

  • 0

    Everton2

    I don't mind spending my money on Japanese women. Hell i will spend the rent money if its required. I did very well with Western women before I shifted focus. I simply got bored with their unending neurosis about everything. I went to Japan initially for work and in the process discovered the enchanting grace of these women. The Japanese women i have known have been intensely loyal and considerate and not all did expect me to pay for everything but I would have if they wanted me to.

  • 0

    ToughGuyBanker

    Doesn't matter where they're from, Japanese or foreign. Look good on my arm at the Embassy functions, smile and keep your mouth shut. I don't need conversation, that's why God made men for me to talk to.

    If foreign women are having trouble finding good men, it's because A) They're in the wrong country and, B) Japan is full of losers who couldn't hack it back home.

    Always remember: Anyone dumb enough to marry you is too dumb to see the big picture.

  • 0

    romulus3

    thanks Northlondon. As president of the "United Men Of Japan" I shall decree that us males must give one "hard up" date per year to desperate foreign woman. Now with that, I stand and wait for the applause and love of the remaining 2 female super delegates.

  • 0

    northlondon

    Tough Buy Banker,

    Doesn't matter where they're from, Japanese or foreign. Look good on my arm at the Embassy functions, smile and keep your mouth shut.

    Since when were waiters allowed to take their dates to work ??

  • 0

    northlondon

    As president of the "United Men Of Japan"...Now with that, I stand and wait for the applause and love of the remaining 2 female super delegates.

    "Rom-ulus, Rom-ulus !"

  • 0

    Cos

    Well firstly, look at the fact. In Japan, foreign women are much more successful than foreign men at finding an interesting Japenese date (and later marry, look at marriage stats).

    Among the foreigners around me, I have always seen about 1/2 of the dating being between 2 non-Japanese for Westerners, and 2/3 between 2 non-Japanese for Asians and Nanbei. The thing is that when the relation become serious a Japanese+foreigner couple is more likely to stay in Japan, foreigner+foreign couples have good reasons to believe Japan is not the best place for them to build a family, buy a house, raise non-Japanese kids.

    For most adults (not students, not working holidays) living in Japan, dating is not as easy as it can be in my country. The main reason is men are extremely busy with their work-life and very tired on their time off. The second reason, maybe a consequence, is Japanese has 2 disctinct leisure/work societies one for men (with men sports, games, horse-races, after-work beer, mizushobai...), one for women (with women activities, ikebana, PTA, travels, shopping, day time tea parties, takarazuka...).

    So here, when you meet someone of the other sex, you are supposed to immediatly start something sexual (or pseudo-romantic with sexual ideas behind), and there are even married couples joining only for mating and living separately. You rarely have the opportunity to have know the man for a while, to see him in his life, with friends and family, to fall in love with his personnality, before he runs on you calling you "Baby..." and proposing directly drink and sex (anglo-saxon men) or just sex (others that don't seem to need to be drunk to perform). Maybe men like it that way. I don't, and that's not as they say. I'd have no technical problem going to a meat-market bar or the sports club picking up one of the best-looking studs. That's not what I'd call a date.

    Well, the thing with foreign men (for me Japanese are foreigners too) is that you need more time than with compatriots to evaluate if they are :

    -gentlemen -losers that don't have the minimum education and respect for women and fellow men

    And my Japanese girlfriends have exactly the same standard for this, it just takes a little more time to get the translation. You know gentlemen, being called the cow or the convenient hooker is equally unpleasant. They are not here today, but among the losers in Japan, there are also those guys that come to tell us all the horrors they think about Japanese women.

  • 0

    notimpressed

    triumvere and jersey boy: calm down guys...someone mentions americans once you all start crying and launching personal attacks? If responding to something and admitting to seeing other aspects to something is defensive...and intollerable...I guess learning anything is too? I assume you would never in your life admit to being wrong either?

    Maybe you didnt notice, I said there are alot of Americans CREATING those stereotypes, I didnt ratify them as absolute. Is it so hard to admit that maybe there some Americans giving you a bad name? Why dont you try prove it wrong instead of getting angry? Its funny that you call me defensive, what are you doing if not being overly sensitive and defensive, all because of a couple of insignificant words? Anyway, get over it. What I think should not matter to you if you are cool.

    My oh my, Americans are hyper sensitive these days. Im just callin it like I see it man.

    On topic...Why would we date foreign women in Japan when theres a bunch of them back home? Its like ordering a cheesburger at a sushi restaurant.

    Romulus: You said it better that time. Yes, yes they are. to put it blunty, foreign women are too often grouchy cows,or pampered princesses. Why would you bother with them here?

    aalmedia: I agree, in my thinking, I dont really care where the girl comes from, as long as it works out in the end.

    Jersey boy and triumvere: Oh no I contradicted myself and didnt attempt to write an essay or post sources, and maybe I hurt your feelings, well this is an opinion post so get over it. You ar enot the post-police so drop the bully act. I promise I wont add you to my list of why so many Americans irritate me if you grow up. If it makes you feel any better, alot of poms(brits)I meet are way too crass in the way they talk about and treat women too, but at least they dont take themselves so seriously at the same time. Actually, are you two sure your not foreign women? THats the snarky attitude I avoid in a woman!! very good impression! Colour me impressed.

  • 0

    notimpressed

    Jerseyboy: "....to make any rational contribution to this discussion" yes, because this discussion is so important and world changing, I really must be more scholarly about it. hehe. it must have been hard to get yer head up in there

  • 0

    Everton2

    Japanese women are just the best, forget about it!

  • 0

    northlondon

    Rom-ulus, Rom-ulus...!

  • 0

    romulus3

    and here is another thing. Lets really let lose. A lot of Western woman make men starve for sex and use it as a manipulation and power tool and are often quite frigid. Asian woman however are rather uninhibited and very responsive to a night of mutual love and passion. Really, there is little comparison. Yep, Romulus has yellow fever.

  • 0

    lipscombe

    I just dont like fat birds, call me shallow haha

  • 0

    JeromeInJapan

    I guess most guys go to Japan due to the Japanese girls... personally id date a gaijin. I have dated J girls but not not my preference.

  • 0

    Triple888

    Foreign ladies cannot get a date with foreign gentlemen? Maybe foreign gentlemen too busy trying to get a date with locals--that's what most of them are here for in the first place.

  • 0

    JasUK

    why don't foregin ladies date Japanese men???

  • 0

    romulus3

    JasUK,

    because local men are some of the most ethnocentric, sexist, sexually perverted, ignoramuses, arrogant, cowardly, alcoholic, weaklings this side of Burma.

  • 0

    pandachan

    Really? I didn't think it was that hard.

  • 0

    maplesugar

    It's not surprising that foreign women - those who are actually eager to date foreign men here - have a hard time, given the open hostility and disdain that so many foreign men have displayed on this thread.

    Personally I don't pick my partners based on broad cultural or racial stereotypes but on the qualities of the individual. My Japanese husband is kind, fun, gentlemanly, intelligent, trustworthy and really all I could want in a life partner (well, it would be nice if his work hours were shorter, but other than that). I'm sure that I would have found an equally fine man back home if I'd happened to be living there at the time in my life when I was ready to get married.

    It's obviously mainly an issue of numbers; there aren't that many foreign guys to choose from here, and clearly many of them prefer to date Japanese women. I don't have any problem with that, but I'm not sure where the need of some to attack foreign women comes from.

  • 0

    lipscombe

    I'm not attacking foreign (by which I am sure you mean Western) women, only saying that I would rather stay away from the ones in Japan who either constantly whinge at me or instantly regard me as some kind of loser/pervert, oh yeah...and the fat ones. in the meantime, those who fall outside of these categories are already outnumbered by several hundred thousand to one japanese women. having said that japanese women are far from perfect and there are more than a fair share of total nutters. I guess its just women in general eh. maybe i should bat try batting for the other team eh, ooooooh.

  • 0

    asdfghjkl

    If you exclude the fact that lots of foreign guys do like local gals, I would have to agree that, (i) whinging would have something to do with it. (ii) Foreign women seems to come across as caring less about their appearance then Japanese gals. So maybe just not competitive in the market place.

    However, Foreign girls who pass (i) and (ii) I notice do great. Guys queue up to be with them.

  • 0

    KitsuneYoukai

    As a foreign female who has been to Japan twice recently, I woudl have to agree that it is difficult to get a Japanese guy to approach you. While I was there I had either one of two extremes. Either I was told how pretty I was or they would be very shy and just stared at me. I have made friends and I find the girls are a lot more vocal and forward than Japanese males. They easily tell you what they think or jump to asking you all sorts of questions. I am neither a whiner or someone who lets themselves go in trems of appearance. I am a professional and sometimes feel that perhaps they can tell that and they are intimidated. I am open to dting a Japanses guy if they would only be a little more open with how they really feel. Otherwise I cannot tell fi they want to take it to the next step.

  • 0

    WMD

    Why do western women in japan tend to be rather large??

  • 0

    DXXJP

    Why do western women in japan tend to be rather large??

    Man thats not just japan but everywhere. Ok we have had full figure bombshells before, but come on obese.

    I haven't wanted or been with a foreign job for almost 20 years. After my first wife Ill never hook up, get intimate, or get tied down by one. Friends yeah but I just cant get past their battle for the pants.,

  • 0

    thebottomline

    Come on, you've seen how many of the western women here are busting out the seams! When you see them in a group of kawaii J-girls it's like Sesame street where "one of these kids is doing their own thing." They are simply over-classed, in looks and character. I think many of you would agree that if you run into a half decent looking western woman, they think they just stepped out of Vogue magazine. And this is fueled by other Japanese girls saying "You're are puretty". I've got news for you western women, they say that to the ugliest of ducklings!

  • 0

    rtrhead1

    "A lot of Western woman make men starve for sex and use it as a manipulation and power tool and are often quite frigid. Asian woman however are rather uninhibited and very responsive to a night of mutual love and passion."

    Guess I got screwed then. Got a Japanese wife, and, sorry, but I think I got the odd duck. Replace western woman for japanese in the first sentance and just disregard the second, and that's what I've found out. I think I may just have bad luck...

  • 0

    TheguyNextdoor

    Woman is a woman no matter where you are from, they are same in any language or country. Not really sure why its hard for foreign woman to find dates, if you need help...I have plenty of foreign friends. Oh, by the way I am an American living in Japan (not military) and married to a beautiful Japanese woman.

  • 0

    ronaldk

    My observation is that large bottomed Western women have great success in South America.

  • 0

    romulus3

    rtrhead1

    Guess I got screwed then. Got a Japanese wife, and, sorry, but I think I got the odd duck. Replace western woman for japanese in the first sentance and just disregard the second, and that's what I've found out. I think I may just have bad luck...

    maybe you got a Japanese woman who wanted a western man so should could get away with the same rubbish western woman pull on their men that should could never get away with with a Japanese husband, My advice to you, start acting like a Japanese husband.

  • 0

    romulus3

    damn auto spell check...should be so she could, not should could.

  • 0

    lordomni

    My advice to you, start acting like a Japanese husband.

    So cheat on her with a schoolgirl and treat her like a house slave? Unfortunately when you say 'like a Japanese husband' thats the stereotype. Most of the foreign girls I know here refuse to date Japanese men after the type of treatment they have often received. The nice ones are generally to shy to say anything, and the ones that will talk are ones who want a foreign trophy. Not always, but seems to be a high rate of occurrence.

  • 0

    bushlover

    My views on this is that I just don't care because I'm not a western woman. I gotta go back and read what the actual western women are saying. I've known some that just had attitude toward males period and in comparison to the local brew they just don't match up in the quiet mode. Sometimes we men just like a partner to be silent instead of giving us the nag all the time. Maybe that's the difference.

  • 0

    romulus3

    lordomni,

    Your stereotype is a bit over the top. cheating with a piece of jailbait is not gonna bring ones wife into line. I just mean assume the role of a strong, male character. I feel sorry for rtrhead1. I couldn't imagine anything worse than his situation. If after trying to talk the situation through openly and honestly failed I would use blunt force trauma to nail that on the head. i.e "using sex as a manipulation tool and not putting out again darling? well I am talking back control of my salary and bank account. Will be at the pub until late tonight. ta ta".

  • 0

    JeromeInJapan

    ronaldk at 09:55 AM JST - 13th May

    My observation is that large bottomed Western women have great success in South America.

    Ladies no need to go to South America... id pick you over a J girl anyday!

    To me J girls are just to plastic... to robitic for my liking and get excited over anything. I know a lot of desperate guys who can't get a girl want a J girl as they think they are obedient and just listen... Wrong! The kimono wearing geisha you saw in that movie is not what you get buddy.

    I need some curves on a woman otherwise I feel like im doing somthing illegal.

  • 0

    northlondon

    I suppose I'd better write something serious this morning. We all know it's true that a lot of guys who are not successful with the ladies back home, come out to Japan because things are easier. And those are not the kind of relationships that should happen really (unsuccessful foreign guy with desperate Japanese girl). But hold on, isn't the fact that some Japanese girls are not so fussy over who they date or get married to, the reason why Japanese girls rule over the more particular western woman ? Surely this is the reason why the majority of guys writing here are in favour of Japanese girls to western girls. Purely because Japanese girls have no real hang-ups or neurosis about who they want long-term relationships with.

  • 0

    rondh69

    My God, if I was staying in Japan, why in the world would I want to date a foreign woman? Same thing if I was staying in China or Korea? I mean, I've only dated Japanese, Chinese and Korean women and I live in Canada...

  • 0

    Betting

    The stereotyping and nastiness in this thread is just amazing, and I mean from both sides. People only seem to be talking from their own personal experiences and thinking that what they say is the one and only truth on the matter, when in fact they have only experienced a little tiny part of "Japan" or "the West". Just becuase someone has lived or studied in another for 6 months or even a year doesn't mean they know a lot.

  • 0

    Wakarimasen

    Still think that many of the views on here are stereotypical - yes, J girls can be gorgeous and yes, sometimes the lack of hassle is a real pleasure. So many blokes don't bother looking for a non-J girl in Japan (why bother?).

    Other way round seems to me to be way more challenging. Many J blokes just downright weird.

  • 0

    romulus3

    northlondon,

    you mean the ones that purposely want a gaijin boyfriend. That is a small percentage of Japanese woman. Most of the them do not because an English Teacher pulling 25man a month is a sad proposition for a top girl and unfortunately when people see a gaijin, they think "NOVA".

    The best Japanese woman are the ones who do not attend GABBA, don't look at you in the street, bar or train no matter how damn handsome you are, and are dressed expensively. You are required to be fluent in Japanese to communicate with them. Its hard to find a situation to have an legitimate excuse to talk to them. They smell "ナンパ" like you just farted.

    Well, if you can get a chance to exchange business cards with them and they can see that you have a decent job you have a slight chance but it takes time. Most guys cannot get these woman or don't want them because they do not go to bed with you on the first date.

    Thats my kind of girl. I waited from October to April for a decent kiss. Well worth the wait. This is the kind of woman that is a majority in Japan. The other kind that like gaijins are all gaijins meet so we tend to mark them off as a majority and refer to them as Japanese woman as a whole.

  • 0

    northlondon

    romulus,

    Have to agree with you. I reckon that a good 80% of Japanese girls are just not interested in foreign men. Simple as that. They don't give you the time of day. Most Japanese girls just want a Japanese guy. If you earn good money, speak the language, are good-looking and (most importantly) have your own pad in a nice part of Tokyo, then you might be in.

    However, I must say that there are some drop-dead beautiful Japanese girls who are interested in foreign guys. And not the girls who hang-out in Paddy's in Roppo or the ones who sit on the wall in Tartlands. But they are a real minority.

  • 0

    JeromeInJapan

    Im wondering if some of you have ever dated a J girl or gaijin... or any girl for that matter!

    romulus3 I agree about there are different classes of women but I would never wanna date a stuck up person they can kiss my ass for all I care. We are all humans so accept we are all equal otherwise prepare to be humiliatingly brought down a peg or two someday.

    I totally would not want anything to do with a J girl who wants a gaijin... or in my case a kokujin as I am mixed black. I think these people just want to date you as you are a novelty item and they show you to all of their friends and in some cases they will pretend not to know you when parents or critisizing friends become involved... its very sad. On the other hand J girls are tired of being treated second glass and picture a romantic Tom Cruise wisking them away... haha wrong again (in most cases)

    This might seem like an over the top comment but id say a lot of Japanese use gaijins for social status, work (teaching english cough) just when convenient.

  • 0

    northlondon

    Jerome,

    If she has that smooth unblemished skin and that nice tight rear end, she can use me as a novelty item any day of the week. Hell, I'd even become an English teacher for the night..

  • 0

    romulus3

    jerome,

    romulus3 I agree about there are different classes of women but I would never wanna date a stuck up person they can kiss my ass for all I care.

    stuck up because she is not cannon fodder for gaijin men? wells that is obviously your defense mechanism for dealing with rejection when confronted with a Japanese woman who does no see you as a novelty item to show off to her friends.

  • 0

    CMEANDU26

    A woman wants what she wants. I have dated all types of Japanese women. None of them said hey I want to date you because you are not Japanese. They wanted to date me because I am a nice guy. I think that some girls have this thought that what they hear about Americans are not good but it is not as bad as what I have seen the Japanese men do here. But it's not for me to say what they want or don't want. If they like me then cool. If not it's not the end of the world. I do have one question though. Why are there so many 33 - 40 year old women still living at home and following the rules that they had at 13? I think family holds a lot of these women back not of dating foreigners but just dating.

  • 0

    Hikozaemon

    Hands up who is married to a Japanese wife, and thinks that Japanese women are submissive.

    I think it is simple - a large proportion of foreign women come to Japan interested in the culture, but with such a slew of racial prejudices and stereotypes against Asian guys that they make up excuses to avoid that, and get bitter at the more open minded gaijin guys who "get stuck in", as it were.

    I know plenty of couples, married and not, of gaijin girls and Japanese guys, that are in solid, normal loving relationships which do not involve tying up, beatings, child kidnappings, or being forced to walk 3 metres behind. I think the problem is that so many gaijin women are so delicate - they don't want to eat raw fish, they don't want to go to onsens and be naked, they don't want to go into restaurants with no English menus. They just want to hang out with their Nova friends, go to Karaoke, and have a stale, safe "cultural" experience. That's not to say that plenty of gaijin guys don't come here with the wrong attitude too, but given the relatively miniscule size of the euro-gaijin community Tokyo, it seems ridiculous to have any expectations of the social life within that 20,000 person english speaking town of gaijins within Tokyo, or even more ridiculously small english speaking communities in other cities. It is like going to Bhutan and complaining at how hard it is to get a white man. If that is all you are after, don't come.

    Peace

  • 0

    presidentbaka

    Hikozaemon:

    ands up who is married to a Japanese wife, and thinks that Japanese women are submissive.

    I'm married to a Japanese woman, and she's everything BUT submissive! In fact, she scares the crap out of me! lol I've dated Japanese girls in the past (before I married) who absolutely were/are submissive and one in particular I wish I'd stayed with sometimes. But, my wife is far more tolerating of me than any western girlfriend I ever had was, and she does more for me than any western girlfriend I had did. Having lived here for nine years, I could never go back to being with a western woman now. And I'm not prejudice in any way, I just appreciate the fact that Japanese ladies are far easier to get on with!

  • 0

    JeromeInJapan

    Romulus3 stuck up because she is not cannon fodder for gaijin men? wells that is obviously your defense mechanism for dealing with rejection when confronted with a Japanese woman who does no see you as a novelty item to show off to her friends.

    Ahhh no... this time your way off target. Im not talking about J girls in general but anybody! I have no time for stuck up individuals... but if you are used to being rejected by Japanese women sorry to hear that. Don't loose any self esteem that you may have left.

  • 0

    GW

    cmeandu26

    you are probably new to Jpn or not paying attn, if you have dated a few J-women I can pretty much guarantee you have used! :) You probably dont mind, lots of foreign guys dont ha ha, but trust me us foreign guys are mostly dated for a new experience, to show off to friends, a whole slew of reasons that have little to do with love, dating, just thought I shud let you know!

    Their not all like that but I bet many of our J-wives certainly were not thinking anything too long term or marriage when you first met :)

  • 0

    JeromeInJapan

    Haha northlondon do you wanna teach her english or give her english?

  • 0

    GW

    prez baka

    But, my wife is far more tolerating of me than any western girlfriend I ever had was, and she does more for me than any western girlfriend I had did

    Boy on boy can I hear you on this, total agreement! Been hitched 13+yrs now & its nice hanging together & nice she freely gives me space & am allowed to do stuff, while my buds back in Cda are maybe allowed to do stuff once a month or something, I cud never go back & be kept that bad again. Hey I dont do lots but its nice to know I can usually just let the mrs know I will be up to this or that & no hassles & I give her the same back & all her married friends are jealous as hell

  • 0

    Neo_Rio

    I know a lot of guys here who dislike fat western women for being fat. While on one hand you can say that this is mean and superficial - on the other hand, fat women are generally unhealthy, greedy, and don't take good care of themselves. Call it a generalization, but we don't have time to talk to everyone and usually physical appearance causes people to make snap judgments about things involving their own personal happiness.

    These are all VALID reasons to avoid fat people of either gender - especially when considering a life partner. It's not so superficial after all - and the only people who say that it IS superficial are too scared to step foot inside a gym!

  • 0

    northlondon

    In fact, fat Japanese girls are perfect. Not too skinny like their skinny friends, a little more meat in the right areas and certainly not heffers like the fat girls back home. Fat Japanese girls are the way forward.

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    TheguyNextdoor

    ands up who is married to a Japanese wife, and thinks that Japanese women are submissive.

    Hikoza-

    Not sure where you get your information on all japanese females being submissive, because my sure as hell isnt. I have the same relationship as GW, not that she is submissive but of it being that we are a married couple and its repsect for one another. Before meeting my wife, I've dated foreign women here in japan and you know what, its just like back home...a woman is going to be a woman anywhere. I said it before, doesn't matter where or what language you speak. There is only thing you need to know as a male or female, thats love and it conquers all.

  • 0

    JeromeInJapan

    I agree. They also don't have the dumb bimbo attitude the shinjuku or shibuya girls have.

  • 0

    Hikozaemon

    TheguyNextdoor - usually when you ask a group of people to raise their hands if they think that their wives are submissive, you would expect the response to be one of stoney fearful silence, hence proving the rhetorical nature of my suggestion. I would challenge anyone who is married that would agree with the generalization made by Azrael that Japanese culture expects women to be submissive.

    In fact, I would dare even the most progressive of stay at home Swedish fathers if they would go so far as to allow their wives to deny them access to their own bank accounts and happily live on a budget of $30 a week for lunch meals, being expected to produce receipts, as is not uncommon for many salarimen in Japan. Women in Japan rule the roost - propaganda to the opposite effect is a combination of wishful thinking by henpecked salarimen confirming the preheld prejudices of a handful of ignorant gaijins that Japan is a samurai shogun seppuku beat your wife kind of culture.

    Peace

  • 0

    saitamakid

    It isn't really hard if they aren't picky. They dream of a Romeo, discriminate against Asian men, and at the same time they only want to date those of their own kind. Here in Japan, it is even more difficult if you're a non-Japanese Asian. Most people think lowly of us. I have long given up on this. I just need to accept the way things are, focus on the good things that come way, and avoid both white and Japanese women so I could save the remaining self-esteem and sanity that I have.

  • 0

    romulus3

    jerome but if you are used to being rejected by Japanese women sorry to hear that. Don't loose any self esteem that you may have left.

    empty come back really as I have not given you any ammunition to start firing off like that. However, I used to have a new girl every week until I found the one I have now. I like her because guys like you think she is stuck up. Thats the best kind of Japanese girl.

  • 0

    romulus3

    Jerome,

    some advice. Japanese girls don't like tall poppy syndrome. western girls use it to great effect. if you stop using it, then it may help your dating.

    LOL. Its been a fun having a good laugh with you. Romulus is all smiles.

  • 0

    northlondon

    Western women are misunderstood, especially in Japan and macho males on this discussion site patronise western women and are being stereotypical. Western women provide a much more in-depth kind of relationship and Japanese girls are a little artificial.

  • 0

    Hikozaemon

    Western women provide a much more in-depth kind of relationship and Japanese girls are a little artificial.

    northlondon - have you tried looking beyond inflatable varieties?

  • 0

    stanoue

    Ha... I know it's stereotypical, but I can't help but imagine all the male posters up there who are boasting about how unattractive/overweight/inferior Western women are - could never actually score a date with an attractive/intelligent/successful woman back home. Hence (a) why they love Japan and (b) the bitterness towards Western woman. As for me, I can't say I have ever met a foreign guy in Japan who I would even want to date. Slim pickings indeed... J guys all the way!

  • 0

    greensatindress

    I am going to make this quick and short b/c these comments are, for the most part, convoluted and full of the same pat stereotypes about J-women & Gaijin women.

    I'm married to a Japanese man and I am perfectly happy---not because he is Japanese but because he is a wonderful human being.

    Second of all, I would like to know why most gaijin men out there (in Japan) seem to have a cleft a$$hole when gaijin women walk into the room-bar-resturant-cafe etc. Are you afraid we are going to see through you or something?

  • 0

    romulus3

    stanoue,

    sounds like your just as bad as those you criticize.

  • 0

    romulus3

    greensatindress,

    no, we are afraid that you are gonna think that you can see straight through us and judge us harshly for nothing.

  • 0

    greensatindress

    ok, well riddle me this---why do gaijin men act surprised and even slightly offended when they find out my husband is Japanese. Like how could I betray my race!?!

  • 0

    romulus3

    actually my real opinion must be that one can never pick who one will fall in love with. could be anyone of any nationality. to specify a strict nationality kind of gives the impression of a type of mental illness. Its called "Ego involved world mindedness". I studied anthropology.

    Actually to be honest I would prefer a girl who was a native English or Sicilian speaker. Both languages are ok for me. My Japanese is good but the subtleties escape me. To be honest I don't care so much about her body or job or ethnicity. I just want to feel loved and appreciated for the strengths I can bring to the relationship and love and respect the strengths that my partner brings, thus together working in tandem for a beautiful future.

    Its really inane and fraught with disaster to court a specific nationality. It means that one has a predisposed idea of exactly how the relationship will benefit ones self,rather than for the benefit of the union.

    I would advise those who think that a Japanese girl is the ultimate wife to heed the harsh realities often displayed on this site. She may seem perfect until you run into issues and require divorce proceedings. If you have kids say goodbye forever. The is a massive issue of infanticide. There are issues of you always being inferior in the eyes of her parents.

    Well, my job will keep me here for a long time. When it was a short term thing I imagined a bit of fun with the local girls would be nice. But now that I am getting older and my needs more advanced than primal urges, a sophisticated woman, with long term aspirations in Japan, who is compatible in terms of communication of any nationality will be a real treasure in my heart.

    I take back any stupid, hurtful things I posted before. I was just fooling round but actually, as Northlondon said. Sometimes post are deadly serious. So I posted this.

  • 0

    knucklerap

    I can't help but imagine all the male posters up there who are boasting about how unattractive/overweight/inferior Western women are - could never actually score a date with an attractive/intelligent/successful woman back home. Hence (a) why they love Japan and (b) the bitterness towards Western woman.

    I think this is partially true, but now that some of these young men have gained some experience, should they return home, I think they would be much more successful with those attractive women you mentioned.

    As for me, I can't say I have ever met a foreign guy in Japan who I would even want to date. Slim pickings indeed... J guys all the way!

    I hadn't thought about this much, but from the dozen or so Japanese women I've dated, they seem to have never experienced foreplay before. Good luck communicating that desire to your JBF who probably speaks stammering Tarzanese.

    Personally, I've had a crush on only one foreign girl in the past ten years - Maria - a mixed Spanish-Brit. She was too fantastic for words. Overall, though, the Japanese girls are too good to be true.

    One nice advantage of marrying a Japanese is the ease of finding housing and securing a home loan - via her papa. I mean, for those who love Japan, why not date or marry a native just so we can enjoy the culture that much more.

  • 0

    romulus3

    greensatindress, thats pretty lame really. You must meet some scum who think that all Japanese girls love gaijins and hate Japanese men. Actually, as I posted earlier, maybe 20% would not mind dating gaijin men but 80% could not give a damn if you were Brad Pitt.

  • 0

    romulus3

    sorry, and to answer your question I would imagine that because these gaijin men think that all Japanese men are crap, thus bestowing on them self some kind of "hero for Japanese woman" mantra, which is a false reality at best and a mental fabrication from just the type of men your described in your earlier post. The same cringer's that cant fathom (sarcasm on)how you could choose a Japanese man above their absolutely superior gaijiness.

  • 0

    ca1ic0cat

    I think romulus has pretty much summed it all up....

  • 0

    KitsuneYoukai

    Okay! When did this conversation change from foreign women dating men in Japan to foreign men dating women in Japan. I wished more of you woudl stay on topic. Where is JT when they're needed.

    I have not heard one bit of advice about the subject. I am open minded and nice so what does it take to date a male in Japan?????

  • 0

    zaichik

    Are we using "date" as in "go on a date with" or as a polite euphemism for "have sex with"? Subtle but important difference, I think :-)

    I knew quite a few foreign women in Niigata happily married to Japanese men (I was in the unhappily married camp for a while), and quite a few (myself included) who were in serious relationships with foreign men that had started after they had arrived in Japan. I didn't have an extensive dating history in Niigata, but honours are even between the USA, Japan and Russia (in terms of numbers, at least - obviously, Russia is the overall winner, since Mr Zaichik and I have now been together for 6 years).

    I had quite a few good foreign male friends in Niigata (purely platonic), but I don't think any of them would have excluded the possibility of dating a foreign woman - an attractive woman is an attractive woman, whatever her nationality. It's just that there are, proportionately, more Japanese women around, so there's a much higher probability that a foreign man is going to find a Japanese girlfriend than a foreign one. Thus, there is a lower probability that a foreign woman is going to find a single foreign man.

    But that's just my opinion.

  • 0

    zzonkerr

    Gosh, Romulus...that was a real tearjerker of a message there. Only thing missing was the violin-heavy background music.

  • 0

    greensatindress

    Indeed, this topic has really gone off in all directions. I think gaijin women get the worst end of the deal here. Not only do they have to put up with unflattering stereotypes (fat, loud, too 'strong', possessive, domineering, unfashionable, unable to cook/clean, don't make good wives etc) but J-men are intimidated by them and gaijin men don't want anything to do with them because they didn't come here to meet fellow gaijin women.

    It seems the only people who have any interst in gaijin women are J-mothers who want to become "friends" with them so that they can get a free English tutor for their little brats---or your local kindergarten & elementary school who want a female English tape-recorder.

    p.s. in response to romulus3, I have definitely sensed a double standard with gaijin men here. It is OKAY for them to marry Japanese women but somehow NOT OKAY for me to be married to my Japanese husband. Very strange. I almost feel like I should be ashamed my husband is Japanese. (believe I am not ashamed)

  • 0

    northlondon

    80% of Japanese guys would love to bed a western women. Only 20% of those 80% succeed in bedding a Russian, sorry, western woman (does not indicate whether paid for or not). 20% of western women in Japan get any action at all in Japan and of that 20%, 80% of them are disatisfied with the service. 80% of western men in Japan walk around with a permanent smile on their face.

  • 0

    jerseyboy

    northlondon...80% of your post was nonsense, and of the 20% that was not, 80% of that was too obtuse to bother trying to figure out.

  • 0

    GW

    greensatin

    I doubt many western males are ticked western women date/marry J-men, surprised.......yeah sometimes perhaps but its no big deal.

    J-men get a bad rap primarily because too too many fit some of these stereotype tidbits. I have been here for ages, have lots of japanese friends & many aquaintances, after all this time there are very few I wud consider marrying if I were female which I am not.

    This reminds of a remark I heard years ago & says a lot imo, went something like "" If I were a woman in Japan I wud definitely be a lesbian "" I think a lot of western guys wud understand that line of thinking

  • 0

    cleo

    I have been here for ages, have lots of japanese friends & many aquaintances, after all this time there are very few I wud consider marrying if I were female which I am not.

    I would say that applied whatever the nationality. All you need is one who's right for you. Of all the men I've met I could count on one hand those I would seriously consider marrying (if I weren't married), and still have enough fingers left over to pick up my cup of coffee.

    I see family and friends married to people I would never consider marrying - yet they're happy together. No need to slag anyone off just because they're not right for you.

  • 0

    Nessie

    Zai, thanks for the realistic analysis. Accurate, I'd say.

    There's also that subset of foreign men who've tired of j-girls and are looking for a foreign woman. But an impediment is that foreign guys tend to be less settled career-wise in Japan than they would be in their home countries, which can be a turn-off to foreign women looking for anything long-term. It's easier to meet j-women who are not looking for something long term than it is to meet foreign women. So all those factors are at play.

    As for advice, which Kitsune asked about...Make lots of friends. Be active. Don't just go drinking. Do sports. Join bi-national clubs and circles. Keep hanging out with foreign guys even if you think they're superficial and easily distracted. When the time is right, you'll meet one who's had enough of chasing j-women.

  • 0

    KaptainKichigai

    All woman are beautiful no matter what country. Guys will date any woman as long as she is a little attractive. Just point me in the direction of the Gaijin chicks and I would love to have the comforts of western dating. But everywhere I look, everywhere I turn, its Japanese Japanese Japanese....Where are all you people going to meet this secret surplus of fellow foreigners? Other than Tokyo, I cant imagine where. And in the 5 years I have spent in Osaka and Kyoto, 9 out of every 10 foreigners I see are Dudes Dudes Dudes....

  • 0

    greensatindress

    GW, I agree there are a lot of men out there who I would not consider marrying but not just in Japan but also in my home country & countries other than Japan. While there are unfit spouses/partners worldwide, I also believe that you can probably find someone for you pretty much wherever you go. I know that sounds strange but I honestly believe that. Well, this topic has been beat to death. I don't know what else can be said that hasn't already been posted here.

  • 0

    zaichik

    But an impediment is that foreign guys tend to be less settled career-wise in Japan than they would be in their home countries, which can be a turn-off to foreign women looking for anything long-term.

    I think that's a v.good point, Ness. The successful foreigner-foreigner relationships I've seen have been those where the couple then heads off to another country to settle and develop a career there.

    And your advice to Kitsune is spot-on. You can meet nice men at bars (two friends of mine got together after he (English) met her (Russian) in a bar where she was waitressing to make ends meet while she was a student at Niigata University - they're now married & living in the UK), but you increase your chances of finding a meaningful relationship if you meet men with similar interests through clubs and circles.

    Mr Zaichik and I got together while setting up a conference in Seoul. We were sent as the advance party from our institute in Niigata and had barely spoken to each other before that, because he wasn't v.talkative at the office. He turned out to be an absolute hoot away from the office, as well as being kind, considerate and v.tolerant of my foibles.

    The moral of that particular story being that office romances can work, too.

  • 0

    Nessie

    And another tip is not to cut on j-women, and not to be negative about japan. No-one likes a whiner. Confidence is attractive in both sexes.

  • 0

    madammiz

    FINALLY the nastiness has stopped on both sides and someone has got to the point!! As Kitsune suggested try playing a sport, hanging with new groups of friends etc. I met my J husband through a group of friends that used to hang out every weekend. I always thought he was hilarious and a genuinely nice guy...... And who knows...maybe just maybe..there is a delish man just for you - whether he be foreign or not!

  • 0

    taiko666

    I agree with Nessie (and Madammiz...) meeting people in a sort of 'non-dating' environment (rather than chatting people up in bars)always worked much better for me back home, and maybe it could work for foreign women in Japan.

    I said 'back home'. In Japan things are different... which brings me to the point I was initially going to make. Based on my own and my friends' experiences, Japanese women tend to be much more approachable than foreign women (Sarge's post hit the mark...) Making that initial connection is therefore much easier, so it's no surprise that in Japan many men take the path of least resistance.

  • 0

    Everton2

    While nice personality, intelligence and being considerate is all that, but those qualities alone just don't cut it for me. My Japanese partner is just devastatingly attractive, she walks in a room and all in it is compelled to focus on her. It happens whether we are in Australia or America. She has all the features I have outlined in an earlier post, and that is skinny, bow legged, pigeon towed, tall, Prada wearing Louis Vuitton babe. She even fitted that classic mole of being a parasite single when I first met her.

    I have to admit it is the share primacy of physical perfection over anythings else that initially drove by fascination for her. And now after two years she has changed into that classic partner, intensely loyal and totally supportive in every way. She just clings to my arm in airports, restaurants or a stroll in the park, it is almost embarrassing but I would not have it any other way.

    The story for guys out there is never ever settle, go for the most beautiful in room and then assess her personality later. You have just the same chance of discovering that she is not only beautiful but have all the other qualities that binds relationship.

  • 0

    Hikozaemon

    Nessie, respectfully, I have to disagree. There is no quality I find more attractive in a member of the opposite sex than bitterness.

    Peace

  • 0

    notimpressed

    wow this is still going, and has actually gone somewhere...

    Good point to drop our gripes and offer some pointers if it really is a problem. I dont have any new ones, I'll just agree with the one that goes all the way back to sarge...Be more approachable.

    The favourite girls Ive ever known in my life so far have all been western women, sometimes only in culture, but it was conversation and personality clicking that wins at the end of the day.

    Foreign ladies, you are all good, as long as you give foreign men the time of day. The time of day doesnt mean anything more than that, and you might find that you meet someone you would have discounted otherwise.

  • 0

    LFRAgain

    This conversation's gone all over the place here, which is good, I think, for a fuller discussion, but returning to the main topic, I can count off the top of my head six foreigner-foreigner couples that met and developed successful, healthy, long-term relationships while here in Japan in the last four years alone. And they met in pretty much the way Nessie and others have suggested: Go to where foreigners might be (not just the bars, although don't knock them either. Like it or not, bars are where the majority of foreigners go to keep their finger on the pulse of the local foreign community) and get involved in a variety of activities that put you out there to see what's available (and be seen).

    Of the six couples I mentioned, two got married, two are engaged, and the other two have been together long enough that marriage isn't out of the question. All while working in Japan. All while not having rock-solid careers planned out meticulously. All while earning modest incomes. Real love and honest relationships don't care about that superficial junk. If the relationship is healthy, those are things the couple works out together along the way.

    To say that all or even most foreign men who come to Japan aren't interested in Western women, as if the two criteria, being a Western male and being in Japan, were the only determinants needed to produce a fully rounded image of a man's personality here, is patently ridiculous. We liked them back home. We like ‘em just fine here too. Why should that change with the scenery? Personally, there’s nothing more intriguing than the kind of person who would pick up and move to another country just to see what else is out there. That kind of curiosity about the world and the courage it takes to act upon it is intoxicating.

    On another note, with regard to the perception that Western men just aren’t interested in foreign women. It’s not solely a matter of interest. It’s a matter of numbers. There are over 80 million women of marriageable age in Japan. 99% of them are Japanese, which leaves a paltry 1% left to choose from. To berate Western men for dating Japanese women predominantly in such an environment is silly. To expect Western men to limit themselves to a pool of only 1% is like demanding that only the Burkina Faso variety of cashews be included in the party mix. I mean, really, who would willingly limit themselves to such a narrow range of possibilities as that? The same would apply to Western women in their search for a significant partner. Why focus on only the Burkina Faso cashews? The other varieties can be just as good in their own way.

  • 0

    LFRAgain

    Wow. 80 million women of marriageable age? Oops. Let's try 50 million.

  • 0

    Sarge

    "Foreigner-foreigner couples that have met and developed successful, healthy long-term relationships"

    I kept hoping that Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansson were going to do that...

  • 0

    BlackTieAffair

    I think people are people regardless of your location. The main factor is good commnuciation and anything is possible.

  • 0

    knucklerap

    I was a teacher in a remote area of Japan and had two female co-workers. I used to watch movies with one of them. One night we were walking home (we had to watch the movies at the school where we worked) and she announced that the moon was full and she wanted to "get laid." I was young and ignorant and suggested she ask a few of the male students at our school. It never occurred to me that she might be interested in rolling around with me as I am one of those guys who left the U.S. due to infrequent sexual relations. Anyway, this is one aspect of the problem - - some of us are so used to getting turned down in the past that we've completely given up on the girls who come to Japan from our home country. Has this already been mentioned? By the way, I did end up granting that girl her wish after her sobetsukai.

  • 0

    antizombie

    Most foreign men that are in Japan are not very interesting excepting successful business men or outstanding scholars. This is the opinion of of some foreign women I know. They do not want to date teachers that are the main group of foreigners.

  • 0

    M_Lammerse

    I'm wondering how far this is true as mentioned in the statement. And a date is something else than a relationship. I'm married with a Japanese but so far I know people I know who are not not married have no problems at all to have a date with foreginers living in Japan or Japanese.

  • 0

    bandogeek

    I don't understand why it would be hard to date a foreign man, many foreign men dream of Japanese women.

  • 0

    Ah_so

    Guys, guys, guys. I think the stereotyping here is going a little too far don't you think ? I am married to a Japanese woman and I am attracted to Asian girls. However, I can think of scores of Japanese ladies who you would not want a serious relationship with and I can think of scores of reasons why dating a western woman would be more fun and attractive.

    Good post, northlondon. In your shoes (well southlondon actaully), and agree with the sentiment. But still, it does not matter where they come from or what language they speak, they can all say, "If you don't know what's wrong, it's not worth telling you!"

    It is the international phrase of the sulking woman. It was probably first muttered in the stone age.

  • 0

    knucklerap

    Japanese women are positive and build men's confidence.

  • 0

    xpompey8

    Foreign men coming to Japan don't seek foreign women. Foreign men can't get foreign women in their own country, so they come to Japan. Simple as that.

  • 0

    xpompey8

    Foreign men coming to Japan don't seek foreign women. Foreign men can't get foreign women in their own country, so they come to Japan. Simple as that.

  • 0

    knucklerap

    >

    Foreign men coming to Japan don't seek foreign women. Foreign men can't get foreign women in their own country, so they come to Japan. Simple as that. >

    Wrong.

    Beware simple answers.

  • 0

    genkipilot

    on a personal level...would love to date a western woman in japan. unfortunately there aren t that many attractive ones around. and usually the once that are seem often rather stuck up. i have never had problems dating women in any country, and yes call me superficial but i could not fall in love with a woman that is not sexually appealing to me.

    so western ladies out there,nothing wrong with presenting urself in a flattering way,which seems to be also an issue regarding foreign women in japan

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