What is your impression of the English-teaching industry in Japan? Have things improved since Nova's collapse or are there still bad apples in the barrel?
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- English Instructor (Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe)
- Berlitz Japan, Inc. (ベルリッツ・ジャパン株式会社), Kansai
- Salary: ¥125,000 ~ ¥250,000 / Month
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- FT English Teachers for Kids - Osaka
- Kohgakusha Co., Ltd. （株式会社興学社）, Osaka
- Salary: ¥255,000 ~ ¥275,000 / Month Travel Expenses, Encouragement of Japanese learning*
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- Translator
- ZAIHON, Inc. (日本財務翻訳株式会社), Tokyo
- Salary: ¥6.0M / Year Negotiable
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89 Comments
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spudman
big bad apples like interac are rotting the barrel still. Quality teachers will still do the job,
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johnnyreb
the english-teaching industry in japan is collapsing. things have not improved at all.
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WMD
The only people who become english "teachers" are the desperate and otherwise unemployable. How could the english industry ever be in good shape?? Anyone with a modicum of self respect or intelligence would be doing a proper job. Now if the english teaching industry were to only employ properly qualified teachers and paid them a decent salary, that would be a different matter.
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Maria
WMD - are you speaking as a teacher, or at least one with wider experience of the industry?
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joetheplumber
Many English conversation schools continue to treat their teachers badly. The emphasis is to please only the students. With this attitude most good teachers take off. So you are left with teachers who are inept and inexperienced. About time teachers were treated with more respect and less fine print in their contracts.
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tokyotom
where is anders lundquist? he wasn't so innocent there are many bad apples, industry attracts those kinds of hippie / backpackers
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kokorocloud
I have to admit, as an english "teacher" in Japan, the system still has many flaws. It's really easy for recent college graduates to sign up and be shipped here before the ink is dry on our diplomas, and chances are none of us are qualified to teach how to tie a pair of shoes, let alone a language. But it's not fair to assume that all of us are here just because we couldn't find anything in the states. I left behind a decent full-time job to come here and try to teach. And I do know some that are only here because it's like a vacation, which I totally do not agree with. A lot us do want to become better though, and I think some programs have it right by making us ASSISTANTS, rather than full time teachers with the same responsibilities as someone far more qualified. That's the kind of program I'm in right now. But they definitely need to get rid of the corruption and hire people (for the bigger companies most assuredly) that can actually do their job and not just come here looking for an easy pay check (or come here and get abused, as many of you have mentioned)
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Osakadaz
The only way to make money as an english teacher is if you run your own school or work for yourself.Otherwise,the wages are appalling,you are overtaxed and face the usual one-year contract conundrum with shonky employers.Oh,WMD what the heck are you talking about? I am a fully-trained High School language teacher.Some of us teach because we enjoy it,sunshine!
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diggerdog
i think the problem with a lot of schools is that the parents dont actually know what they teach the kids. I know some schools which play only games (how is this going to improve the kids english), and other schools which sit the kids infront of a tv then try to sell the dvds to the parents. A lot of schools seem more interested in making as much money as they can out of stupid parents than they do in improving the English of the kids. I run a school with a Japanese friend and his wife. We are both qualified teachers, he is very highly qualified and we teach the kids reading/writing and speaking, phonics and so on. The problem i think isnt the schools but the fact a lot of parents dont go into the schools to see the lessons. If they did then im sure they wouldnt send their kids to these schools and then these schools would close. So the issue is dumb parents who throw away their money for a service they dont understand.
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kokorocloud
Diggerdog, you make a very good point. In general the parents, who don't know anything about English to begin with probably, don't seem to know what occurs in these schools and programs. Though I know some programs encourage parental involvement-- I think AEON is one of them. When I was researching to apply to teach here, I found out that they have the parents come in at the end of a week or something to talk about their children and what they've been learning, which is a really good idea and a good way to encourage to the parents to help their kids study at home, not just at school.
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neverknow2
All the teachers that come here to teach are not actually teachers. They are NERDS that are fixated with Japan. They lack social skills and a proper education. There are a few that have brains but 99% are charisma man. In theirown countries they are not qualified to teach. The teachers are the beginning of the problem.
Also, when I walk down the street in Shinsaibashi, and I see these Eglish teaching nerds and say hello, can someone explain why they are scared of me and run away?
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joetheplumber
A good conversation school looks after teachers and students. Good teachers need to be rewarded and bad teachers sent on their way. Nova failed because it promoted inept teachers and lost some of its best teachers, because they were ill treated. Nova's fall was on the cards. Other schools must learn and change if they are to survive.
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Betting
One of the things I truly hate is "business" English which I see advertised so often. I really would like to know what it is. Is it so much different to regular English? I think it is just a term which some company invented to further milk the cash cow. Getting some recent university gradutate to teach it is just as laughable.
I'm not against anyone teaching English at all, after all it is simply about teaching one's own knowledge and experiences to another. But how could anyone who has never worked in the field of English teaching something without having done it themselves? How could anyone who has just recently graduated know anything about this subject?
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tmarie
Those with the qualifications are in decent university jobs or private high schools/junior high school. Those "teachers" getting crappy pay and benefits don't have the qualifications to get treated better. I wish they would stop whining about it. If they want to be teachers, do the work to get the title. However, expecting the Japanese to wake up and demand quality teachers will never happen.
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kokorocloud
My only issue with the no experience thing is that everybody has to start somewhere. Which is why I think they need to give the full time actually teaching jobs to people who HAVE done it before, but for those who are fresh out of college and are looking to get experience so they can become more qualified, there are programs and positions for them. So perhaps some people are simply in the wrong program/working for the wrong company.
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ratpack
The WORST teacher i have ever seen was a trained (fully qualified) teacher. The BEST teacher i have ever seen was as untrained (not qualified) teacher...actually she was a housewife. One taught with commonsense. The other taught directly from the text, had the personality of a house potplant and would put an owl to sleep with his drone. As for the parents not knowing what their children are being taught....I invite the parents into the classroom each and every lesson. The kids who are improving ten fold are the ones whose parents take up the invitation. The kids who flounder are the ones whose parents would rather sit outside of the room and send text messages to tom, dick and harry.
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kokorocloud
ratpack-- I do find that the teachers who aren't rigid about their planning do much better in certain classrooms. I suppose it's always a case-by-case thing. Because the ones who have no training can end up floundering and having no direction when in situations where they are required to have some focus.
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Patrick Smash
This one again eh. There are a number of problems, but I like to compare this with dentists. If you need to learn something, you go see a teacher, and he or she teaches you. If you have a toothache, you go see a dentist. He or she fixes your tooth.
How many of us would get our tooth canal from an unqualified dentist with no experience in dentistry, but who spoke Japanese and had a drill? So why do they do it with English language education? Why is there no requirement for a formal teaching qualification for supposed teachers?
The kids bit is a complete rip off, Shane etc. are a complete joke and even if the teachers want to teach the curriculum and amalgamations prevent it. The parents watch the class once a year if that, they don't question curriculums; they just think that whitey speaks and their kids will learn.
There is no pay in English teaching because there are so many eikaiwa teachers in the country. It's supply and demand, and most in the industry are worth next to nothing. An Oxford grad with 20 years experience and a JLPT 2 is not necessarily a better English teacher than an McQuarry Aussie on a tourist visa.
English teaching here is severe underemployment for most, and people should get out of this industry before they're thirty unless they're able to start their own school. Conditions will not improve for teachers; they'll decline if anything. There never was much money, but what there was is gone.
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one2one
"and send text messages to tom, dick and harry" Hehehhe @ratpack I must be Tom. Anyway if I walk down the streets and come across at least an English student who can put an English sentence together only then will I be convinced, we are heading somewhere.
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jonnydesu
I'm surprised at the posters here who group all teachers into one lazy, unqualified, untalented bunch. I have been in the industry for over 3 years, starting with Nova. I agree that there were many sub-par teachers, but it was because they never took the time or put the effort into becoming a better teacher (not the Nova fostered such an environment). However, there were some teachers who did strive to better their teaching abilities. They cared about their lessons, their students, and the idea that people were paying to learn a language, not just chat up a foreigner. Like any vocation in life, if you pursue perfection of your craft, you will be become better at it. As far as the money goes, has anyone been looking at jobs in America? The unemployment rate is the highest it has been in years and salaries are not what the used to be either. The money here is not horrible. It just depends on what kind of lifestyle you choose to live. I don't recommend trying to be the sole bread winner for a family, but for a single person, I seem to do just fine, better than most Japanese workers at this age. So many people want to bash the industry and say horrible things about the teachers, but the reality is that the Japanese people seem to like what they are getting. Whether that be a strong grasp of the English language, a chance to talk with a foreigner, or a simple hobby to keep them active is their choice. Betting - yes, there is a difference between between Business English and conversational English. There are different ways of introducing yourself, how to talk about your company and your position within that company, setting appointments, holding meetings and giving presentations, negotiations, there is a lot to it that you may not normally teach in regular conversation classes. These classes are usually shorter terms and very focused to achieve specific goals.
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joetheplumber
jonnydesu:
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DenDon
what a load of crap
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tranel
Regarding business English: Yes, it is DEFINITELY different from conversational English, and no, recent graduates without work experience cannot teach it—and hence shouldn't.
With that out of the way, Nova's downfall was in the cards, but the overall mindset of the industry remains the same. Take GABA for instance, there are armies of suit-clad "managers" who actually do very little of value, whilst the teachers and coordinators, ie the people who actually meet/greet clients and carry out the service that the company sells, get paid peanuts—with very little opportunity for those who consistently receive good performance reviews by students to increase their pay per lesson.
0
mansen
That's take it easy on the JET(I think that's what it's was called). Maybe over 90% of JET are not qualified to teach in there own country. That's why they are "assistant" teachers in schools in Japan. I weight a large portion of the problem with the Japanese English teachers and the Monbusho. Japanese Egnlish teachers are trained teachers that should fully support the JET and not complain most of the time. I believe JET program was established by the Monbusho to help Japanese teachers and students to get a taste of "native" english.
I could imagine it would cost a whole lot more of money to bring in qualified/experience native english teachers to Japan. If they every do decide to do that, I have a feeling Japanese teachers would feel inferior and complain that they might lose there job.
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womanforwomen
Anyone and everyone can teach English in Japan. This is wrong. I understand the negative comment made by the poster that the desperate and the unemployable. I think it is directed towards those actually wrecking the lucrative English teaching industry in Japan.
If you read my posts you will know that my English is funny and incomprehensible (not sure if the spelling is right). I should not be teaching English.
0
nevarezga
I agree with Ratpack
I met a teacher in Kyoto whose mother tongue wasn't english, he told me the company he works for liked him, as he learned english in school and by practicing it. He knows what would be best for his students.
The same happened to me when studying japanese, the teacher who took lessons for teaching wasn't exactly what I expected, later another teacher (she was 24) replaced him. She used common sense, and it worked.
What's with this? I do believe a high percentage of the english teachers in Japan do what they do not because it was the only option, but rather because they just like it, I find it myself very interesting. And yes, as some say, it is a start. Do whatever makes you happy.
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joetheplumber
In my opinion, English should be taught by professional teachers. In no way should conversation schools hire anyone without proper qualifications. They have a responsibility to the paying client to provide professional services. Nova may have started doing the right thing, but as it became bigger it lost the ability to provide professionalism. It charged students high fees and treated its teachers badly. How could it have survived?
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Patrick Smash
A high proportion of young English teachers in Japan do it to have a foreign experience. Some of them are quite into teaching, especially eikaiwa.
But a high proportion of the over 35s are teaching because they have no idea what else they can do or where else they can go. A lot of them learn the language and enjoy life here, but others are stuck in a rut that they have no way out of. They don't like Japan or the Japanese, hardly speak a word of the language, and are worth no more than the pittances they make.
Like most things, you get out what you put in to an extent.
0
Disillusioned
This is hilarious! All these self-important egotists carrying on about how teachers should be qualified to teach English. How much training and education do you need to teach a seven year old kid to say, "How old are you?"? Bugger all! How much training and education do you need to be an ALT? Bugger all! - The only training necessary is how to deal with Japanese teachers that have not been outside their classrooms for 20 years. However, I do agree there is a certain amount of maturity needed to teach business English, but that is not to say you need an MA in linguistics to do it. As for the new trend for private schools requesting qualified teachers: That is purely for advertising and student recruitment purposes and has nothing to do with education. It's still the same "repeat after me" job.
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gogogo
English teachers get paid a ton of cash, a programmer with a 4 near CS degree will only get 3-5 million a year in Japan, a full time English teacher with no degree will get 7-10 million.
0
andylaurel
If all the teachers were degree qualified teachers, then the salaries would have to be substantially higher and Eikaiwa would become an unprofitable business.
On a unrelated note, it never ceases to amaze me how jaded most foreigners are in this country. If you don't like it, don't complain, just go home.
0
Klein2
And so it goes. Very little has changed except that there are probably more people doing it now because they want to do it. Hasn't always been that way. Maybe the students and their performance have not changed at all.
I have seen a lot of good teachers get reamed. The bad ones will put up with anything because many of them are drunks and drifters. The rest can't do better for themselves. There is good money to be made through diligence and hard work, just as in any pursuit, but the economics are set up to work AGAINST quality, not for it (similarly to dentists, in fact!). My gut feeling is that the industry will be better in five years than it is now, whether it attracts as much money or not. A hundred true professionals scattered around the country would do better service for society than having them all working at one TITANIC sized company.
A parting shot is that I know of not one Eikaiwa company, not one big or small, that properly paid its taxes for domestic or foreign workers. So apparently even business owners doing the kaiwa thing do not believe that the profits are acceptable for legitimate business activities. They make outrageous claims and promises and outrageous demands. The clients have unreasonable expectations too. That is known in Japan as "market confusion." Honest people doing honestly good work can exploit that, but it takes a lot of patience, trust, and hard work.
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Klein2
Oh wait. One more thing.
I know of a very reputable and professional guy who had a great school going. He worked an entire year for no pay just to get it going, doing side jobs just to eat and support his family. He shut down his profitable school after growing it for over a decade because there was no way he could A. make acceptable profits and B. provide a good level of service. Before he shut it down, he got three offers from companies to let them take it over. Their plans were mostly to jack up prices, cut services, and advertise on his reputation. For that, they were going to give him serious money and sign a lease on his building.
He threw a big party for his students (now doctors, lawyers, artists, flight attendants, and others) and teachers, paid back the teeny tiny NYUUKAIKIN that he had collected from them, recommended some of his better rivals and then shut it all down to open a better business. He was the best I have ever seen. When people call someone else CHARISMA-MAN, I have to chuckle. I have never met a character like this guy.
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Klein2
Sorry for multiple posts. As far as I know, he paid his taxes properly. Had to add that so that he does not get blown away by my hyperbole.
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stirfry
since the japanese really cannot speak english, both the industry as well as the japanese education system, bears equal blame
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kirmak
I taught at NOVA for a year. I loved my students and did my best to teach them within the confined system that was in place. There was a system in place for NOVA that worked for some students. The problem was that if students thought that by attending English language school once a week for an hour would help them become fluent in English then they were mistaken. Ultimately I believe it came down to the student and their desire to learn English.
I currently live in Los Angeles where I have met Japanese college exchange students whose English is worse than some of the students whom I have taught. These exchange students are surrounded by native speakers yet still speak mostly Japanese and have very limited English capabilities.
So I believe instead of knocking the English-language schools in Japan, we should be looking at the students and their determination to learn the English language.
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DenDon
hahahaha what?!?? try getting a work permit without a degree. then try finding an english teaching job that pays 7-10 million a year. good luck with that
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knews
The English conversation industry in Japan is unique in that the vast majority of customers have at least some passive knowledge of English. They can actually read the language. Imagine if you could read French or Spanish and understood the meaning of the words but couldn't speak it. This makes it very difficult to argue that teachers need some sort of "qualifications" to teach English here. I totally agree that some of the worst teachers have the most qualifications. At the end of the day, there is a market for such classes and there are companies that supply lessons to customers who want to practice speaking the language. Nova didn't make it and maybe others will follow, but the demand will always be there and the customers will pay. I wonder where the 50% market share (400,000 - 500,000 customers) that Nova supposedly had went. I don't think Gaba, Aeon, ECC, Berlitz or the others got all of them. Perhaps a lot of former Nova customers opted for smaller local schools. Anyway, maybe it is a good thing that Nova went down because it has shaken up the industry and hopefully made Japanese consumers a bit more aware and demanding.
0
cleo
lol If that were true I'd go back to teaching in a flash. Do they pay even more if you have a degree, or am I just being greedy?
0
nigelboy
One the surface, yes. But realistically, it has become one of many useless amakudari institutions that seriously needs to be abolished. It's ironic that JET-ALT posters here who despise LDP and Aso and praise DPJ when it was the DPJ who wants JET like program abolished while Aso was the one defending their existence.
Apparently not much which saids a lot about the generousity of Japan granting residence to such incompetent imports.
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tigerguy
From my experience, I'm working with Eikaiwa teachers who are very lazy knuckleheads and it's embarrassing to me and the industry. So yes there are still bad apples in that companies still hire any person who appears to speak English with no qualifications...
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bdiego
nigel: That's like saying it's ironic that most people who hate Bush agreed with his decision to invade Afghanistan. Nothing to do with it.
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Betting
"English teachers get paid a ton of cash, a programmer with a 4 near CS degree will only get 3-5 million a year in Japan, a full time English teacher with no degree will get 7-10 million".
Pure fantasy. Or hopefully just being sarcastic ...
0
Simon_Foston
The English-teaching industry has not adapted itself to current economic circumstances and the fundamental drop in demand for the service it provides. The whole English conversation teaching model is now obsolete because it is a luxury that people are deciding they cannot afford and do not really need. English is sold as a hobby and a tool for travelling and making foreign friends, and so it's going to be even less appealing now to those who have neither travel plans nor any chances to meet native English speakers - quite often, the only time students can use their English skills is when they are talking to their teachers. For Japanese people in this situation all the English they need is available from self-study books and NHK. Basically, I think eikaiwas have to change their whole business pattern and focus more on English test preparation for people who need good TOEIC, TOEFL or Eiken scores on their C.V.s, and English that would be useful in various work situations in Japan, e.g. for a JR employee handling questions from English-speaking travellers. In any case there is no way the school operators can continue running things the way they do at the moment.
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Patrick Smash
Simon Foston, some good points. The interest that many Japanese had in foreigners and exotic overseas travel has waned over the past 20 years, there is little doubt about that. Japan had a focus on eikaiwa, and young Japanese used to want to speak with furrinners. Now Japan is packed full of them.
Also the education system has been re-Japanizing and rebranding Japan, so Japanese music and movies, actors and talents are more popular than their western counterparts now. Young Japanese guys with facial hair have become cool, more than young white males, and that further dulls the interest in eikaiwa for J-girls and housewives.
The future for eikaiwa is not so good. It is more about getting decent accents for the kids, and passing tests. Hobby eikaiwa still exists, but is dying out slowly. There are way too many "teachers" for the number of students, but that will change next year with compulsory social insurance. Many of the eikaiwa teachers will be driven out by the increased costs of staying here.
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Simon_Foston
In that respect I think eikaiwa is like a lot of other businesses here, especially the small and medium-sized enterprises the politicians are always telling us have to be protected. They just spring up without any regard for profitability or however many other people might be running the same kind of business in the same area, so there's no way there could ever be enough consumer demand to keep them all profitable. That's also one of the things that did for NOVA - the reckless expansion meant the different NOVA schools were competing with each other rather than rival companies. Less schools and less teachers definitely wouldn't be a bad thing.
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Wakarimasen
It is rubbish and full of cheats.
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palisadez54
I think there are some good schools out there, but the teachers get paid peanuts: overworked and underpaid. I've been teaching eikaiwa as well as doing the ALT circuit for about 10 years and I've seen how badly teachers are treated. I remember when foreigners where hired directly by the city to teach in public schools and made close to 400,000 a month. Now it's half that(temp staff companies need their cut, too). Eikaiwa schools give no incentives for their teachers to stay long. That's why all the good ones leave.
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RandomTask
Yup, a broken system. If you want good teachers you need to pay them well and treat them well. If you don't they quit and you end up with a school full of people who can't find better jobs.
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Simon_Foston
It's stupid and short-sighted but quite deliberate. The salaries are generally quite decent for someone who's just graduated from university and looking to make a bit of cash to pay off student loans, but not for someone who's looking at teaching English professionally and making a career out of it. Eikaiwas don't want to hire those people as they would generally prefer to waste their money on other things.
0
Cicada
joetheplumber:
You are kidding, I hope.
NOVA "failed" because the controlling Yakuza decided to shut it down, putting in place methods of sucking out all the assets, deliberately bankrupting it.
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Simon_Foston
Upon what do you base that allegation? The actual facts of the matter are clear-cut and well-known. The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry approved NOVA's policy of selling lessons in large packages at a discounted rate, and then using the full price per lesson to calculate any refunds. NOVA then more than doubled its number of schools without really increasing the number of teachers it employed, so that it became much harder for students to reserve the lessons they'd bought, which they'd been promised they could do any time they liked. When they wanted to cancel their contracts they got far less money back than they really should have done, they went to court and METI, acting far too late to deal with a problem they had allowed to happen in the first place, forbade NOVA from selling any more large lesson packages. Under such circumstances the company couldn't possibly survive.
Nothing to do with Yakuza at all, unless they were particularly stupid Yakuza with no idea how to run a profitable business, and even less to do with the quality of the teachers, although NOVA management liked to say it was rather than take any responsibility for their own incompetence.
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joetheplumber
Some Nova schools deliberately knocked back students even though there were time slots and teachers available on any particular day. I thought this was a wierd practice. In fact I could see Nova failing 5 years earlier than it did. They had many wierd practices.
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unrested
nova failed for the reason most schools in japan do. too much overhead not enough income.
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joetheplumber
Or too many schools in the wrong places?
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joetheplumber
Or too many unsatisfied customers...the students.
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all4faj
Nova had been around for a long time, Back in the early 90s , more than a few big name English Schools with big fees went under. Honestly being an English teacher in Japan is a great job for a young person , but not a very good career move. It is a temporary job at best, also works quite well if you are between jobs or just enjoying travelling around the world. But English teachers salaries at Eikaiwas have gone down in the last 20 years or at best stayed stagnant, My advice to anyone teaching English at a big school now, is forget English and do the math, You will soon work out whether your School can afford to pay you , rent, office staff and management as well as advertize on what paople pay for lessons.
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Jizzeez
Yeah, I started out telling a rapt audience of housewives and office ladies about my last trip/weekend, the next thing I know I'm up in front of an unruly class of teenagers. So I got out. There are other ways to make money in Japan... no promotion or prospects part of the deal though...
0
ADVAN
I worked for Berlitz for about 3 years and in our unit, there were genuinely good guys and girls teaching and aiming to make a difference. The hardest thing was the quality of lessons being taught at other schools - even at Berlitz. I would hate to imagine the quality of lessons at Nova. If I had to guess, there was probably 30% doing the right thing and the rest were made up of foreigners just trying to make some money or trying to pick up the girls or ones that had been doing it for so long they couldnt care less as there wasnt anything better for them. Do we have people like this back in our country? Absolutely, but the problem is head office who are actually hiring these losers and letting them work.
Someone mentioned English teachers are getting low pay and long hours - I would disagree. I think most are getting too much for the rubbish work they are doing. Turning up (if lucky) and simply going through the motions of speaking until the bell rings indicating the lesson is over and taking naps between lessons and or bad mouthing the guy they just 'taught' is not hard work - if work at all.
I wouldnt know if things have gotten better since Nova but I certainly hope so. There are many who pay good money hoping for us to help them improve without realising the person across the desk either hates being there or simply want to get in their pants!
0
ReikiZen
I have yet to hear any good reason why English is still even taught in Japan. The Japanese people are never going to use it anyways so what's the point. It doesn't help matters when the school doesn't allow you to teach unless under their guidelines. Not to mention they always put special rules in place which further prevent you from doing your job. Why do you think so many Japanese English ability is still rotten at best. It's that they don't see any real reason to take it seriously enough.
What decent courses are available is usually only in a couple places in Tokyo and I think Osaka. There is one which has gained some fame but can't think of the name at the moment. Anyways my theory is that don't teach it unless students really want to learn or private lessons. In most cases they just see it as a good time to screw off and get some much needed rest lol. I can live with that but really what is the point. Until Japan starts treating the English curriculum seriously. It is better to just not teach it at all. Hell I am sure that won't hurt the school's feelings any. They can always use the money elsewhere anyways.
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michaelqtodd
Do you not know why they teach English here? It goes way back.The American of course encouraged it post war. Japanese resisted until companies realised that it was a great way of measuring gambaru (persistence?)in the face of adversity. So high schools since then have been instructed to make English as boring and meaningless as possible.The students that do well in English are the ones the companies want.I have been told by head hunters that many companies do not even consider the grades in other subjects or even University results.High School English
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LFRAgain
This is by far the biggest load of crap I've seen in this thread so far . . . And that's saying a lot, after WMD's rants.
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michaelqtodd
If you can think of a better reason why the method of teaching is so bad I would love to hear it
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Cicada
Simon Foston:
There is nothing wrong with your analysis, except that you attribute the poor NOVA business behavior leading to bankruptcy as incompetence, whereas it was a planned Yakuza method of phasing out and closing down the school, while embezzling as much money out as possible in the process. They even took the pension fund.
The Yakuza-NOVA connection is well known. (And not just NOVA of course, other conversation chains as well.) The President of NOVA was convicted of embezzling money from the company.
Just recently Yakuza were arrested for kidnapping the President of NOVA (forcibly holding him in a hotel room). Did you think that a coincidence? If you did, then teaching English conversation might be a good career choice.
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michaelqtodd
@LFRAgain Not from thin air at all.I seriously believe that this is the case. Things are that bad in the schools.I have witnessed it.How long have you been in Japan? How many children do you have here?
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LFRAgain
I'm not taking issue with what you believe. I'm taking issue with you presenting "beliefs" as fact. The two are very distinctly different things.
As for your beliefs . . .
This statement sounds as if is based in fact, and it is not.
I've been teaching in the Japanese public school system for 9 years. I too have witnessed how bad it can be in some schools. But in that time, I've also come to know both personally and professionally literally hundreds of English teachers at all levels of the education system, from elementary schools to the Ministry of Education. None of them, not a one, has been instructed to "to make English as boring and meaningless as possible," as some sort of perseverance test. Not a single one.
So please don’t come here and peddle your fanciful speculation as knowledgeable fact when it very clearly is not.
Now, if you're just trying to be sarcastic or sound witty, then you need to work on it, because the current approach is seriously flawed.
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JackDorff
Klein2 - Drunks and drifters? I`ve seen a couple of hopeless drunks get fired and then move up the eikaiwa ladder. One lush in particular went from Nova (where he was fired) to Berlitz (where he was fired before finishing up at Waseda (where I guess he was probably fired). Either there were no background checks or he just bulls**tted well at interviews!
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Simon_Foston
I never thought for even a second that Saruhashi's abduction was a random co-incidence, as I cannot imagine Yakuza wanting to kidnap anyone they don't have pretty serious issues with. Neither can I imagine why you would imply that I might think such a thing unless it was for the purpose of getting in a cheap dig at English conversation teachers, which I honestly don't see the need for.
In this instance I'm well aware of the stories that have been floating around about the NOVA/eikaiwa/Yakuza connection, and while I don't dismiss them I have seen nothing much to substantiate them. Of course if there are any hard facts available I'd be very interested to see them and would be happy to revise my opinions accordingly. At the moment though, I still think it's also possible that Saruhashi borrowed heavily from the Yakuza to try and get out of the hole he'd dug for himself, and that they're leaning on him now because he's thrown away their money. I mean, it's entirely conceivable that NOVA's collapse was indeed a Yakuza scheme, but if so it was so ingeniously planned and executed that they left absolutely no fingerprints on it - there's been quite a bit of media reporting about Saruhashi's screw-ups but absolutely nothing about possible organized crime connections. Why would people capable of such a calculated and methodical crime see any need to draw attention to themselves by kidnapping the president of the company they'd forced into bankruptcy?
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Cicada
LFRAgain:
The topic was "What is your impression of the English-teaching industry in Japan? Have things improved since Nova's collapse or are there still bad apples in the barrel?".
I'm curious if you consider the public school system as part of "the English-teaching industry". I had thought that only language conversation enterprises like NOVA constituted "the English-teaching industry"; that public schools would fall into the "education" category. Am I wrong to think so?
I've known some English teachers too, but only figuratively speaking, so I will take your word as authority.
Oh, come on. Not even a single one? Isn't it possible that someone did not mention it to you?
Or maybe they needed not to be instructed, as it is an unspoken rule?
Many schools, I should think. Consider yourself fortunate, though, to have been only a witness and not a participant. Were you observing schools for the Ministry of Education?
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Cicada
Simon Foston:
Fair enough, I accept your criticism. I had assumed you were unaware of the NOVA/Yakuza connection since you asked me about something I see as obvious. Now I see that you are rather entertaining other possibilities as well.
They have long experience with this, it is their forte.
Saruhashi is the fall guy and the media plays along.
Yes, why take this risk? Clearly they felt an urgent need to intimidate him. It was a blunder because of the actions of Saruhashi's lawyer, but they must have known that risk, and still they felt the necessity to kidnap him.
Actually, one can better ask the same question in your scenario:
Why would they kidnap him and thus implicate themselves in his NOVA affairs if it was merely a matter of him owing them some money?
So it had to be something extraordinarily serious such as (for example) him knowing details of where to find some NOVA collapse scheme "fingerprints".
Anyway, thanks for your admonition and additional insights.
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bobbafett
My child goes to an international kindergarten. His English is awesome. His teachers are real teachers. He has had the same teachers in his life for 2 years. They are awesome.
As for the English conversation grind schools, they offer as much in learning value as fast food hamburger shops offer in health value, and with the same assortment of people working there. People in transition or people with nowhere to go.
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LFRAgain
Cicada,
Apparently, in your rush to what? Boo-yah me? you failed to notice that my mentioning my experience in Japan was in direct response to a specific question from another poster, and not related to the topic of the thread. That question, if you had bothered to read it at all, can be found at 07:57 PM JST, in connection to a comment about how bad "schools" were in Japan, which was related to an earlier comment made by the same poster about how and why high schools in Japan teach English at 07:09 PM JST.
But then, you already knew that, didn't you, when you worked up your righteous lather?
Probably the most important thing that you failed to notice was that the conversation between michaelqtodd and I has absolutely nothing to do with you and your dime-store crime novel Yakuza conspiracy theories. So how 'bout you butt out?
:D
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Simon_Foston
Not having any knowledge of what these people were actually up to I'll consider any possibility at the moment. It could well be that the Yakuza decided Saruhashi needed some extra encouragement not to talk about possible organized crime involvement in NOVA's collapse to give himself a better chance in the appeal. If that's the case there are probably several layers of insulation between the people who give the orders and the ones who carried them out, and the abductors were just unlucky or stupid enough to get caught in the act. Alternatively, Saruhashi borrowed a really huge amount of money from a less sophisticated Yakuza outfit, and they decided the strong-arm tactics were necessary to set an example. I'll be interested to see if police interrogations or questions asked at Saruhashi's appeal yield any more answers.
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Blue_Tiger
"So high schools since then have been instructed to make English as boring and meaningless as possible."
A pretty-much true statement. I teach Oral Communication in a private Junior-Senior High School for Girls in Tokyo, and for the most part, my Senior High classes are the worst, especially 1st and 2nd year classes. The girls in these classes by-and-large would rather be doing something else than sitting in an English Class, and usually end up chit-chatting with each other in Japanese, even in the classes where the students are really motivated to learn. On top of that, I have no real authoirty to punish or discipline them even if they really, really act up in class. The only thing I can do is write them up in a report and send that to a Japanese superior. The worst that the J-Administration has done? Sent the homeroom teacher into my class to "observe" the troublemakers during class. It did help, but seeing how the students rarely study for tests, even more rarely turn in or show me completed homework, or merely abide by the simple rule to SPEAK ENGLISH IN ENGLISH CLASS, there is really very little I am able to do to control the class or really help them to learn how to do anything in English.
This is by far the biggest load of crap I've seen in this thread so far . . . And that's saying a lot, after WMD's rants.
--LFRAgain
Nope, hits pretty close to the truth. If you really want to know what it is like, try teaching a classroom of 25-30 unmotivated High School students who've had Japanese Teachers fort he most part teach Englihs as if it is like going to the dentist for a rot canal.
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Blue_Tiger
LFRAgain - apologies, as I didn't see that you had taught in the Japan public school system for 9 years. Apparently you do know what it is about. I stil lsay, though, that the statement above about English Classes taught by Japanese Teachers being boring has a lot of truth (whether English is purposely tuaght that way, I know not....).
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tigerguy
Obviously things have not improved since Nova went down and of course there are still plenty of bad apples in the barrel. Eikaiwa teachers should be re-titled as Genki Clowns because they're not real teachers. I've worked with so many uneducated and unprofessional eikaiwa monkeys that I've lost count. It's embarrassing...
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LFRAgain
Blue_Tiger,
No worries. I don't deny that the classes are painfully boring. God knows, I've had to stand through countless classes where I wanted to slipt my own wrists out of boredom. It's well known that foreign language teaching techniques in Japan are abysmal.
But what I took issue with was another poster claiming that the boring nature of English classes in Japanese public schools was an officially sanctioned directive in order to teach students the value of perseverance in the face of undesirable tasks, supposedly to prepare them for a life of the same in the corporate world.
Obviously on the surface, the statement is outrageous. But looking further, one only has to notice just how equally uninspired other subjects seem to be taught to see that laying it all at the feet of English education has no basis in truth.
Yes, Japanese education can be boring. But there are a few diamonds in the rough, so to speak, and in my 9 years out here, I’ve worked with a large number of teachers who really do give a damn, and try their hardest to make their classes engaging and relevant.
The opinion that the boring nature of English classes in public school is official policy was and still is ill-informed and myopic.
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Cicada
LFRGain,
No, I did not fail to notice that. However, I became intrigued by the distinction between English-teaching "industry" versus "education" sectors. My point was not that you were off-topic, but rather that veering into that area can reveal interesting things by contrast.
To the contrary, I think it is you who failed to notice the important connection that I was hinting at.
The English-teaching "industry" (represented by NOVA and other such organizations) is, generally speaking, backed by right-wing forces. The Yakuza essentially run many of these, and their connections with government (immigration) is obvious.
On the other hand, the "education" sector is well known for the left-wing influences.
This is what I was intending. Nothing to do with "boo-yah" as you call it.
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LFRAgain
Cicada,
Perhaps an apology is in order. Your post came across to me as unneccesarily sarcastic in a thread that seems to produce unnaturally strong reactions.
You're correct, I failed to see how your response to my post was in any way connected to possible Yakuza influence on the eikaiwa industry, as the two seem so remotely different on a number of levels. Which, I suppose is where your curiosity arose. No harm, no foul, but I can't speak in detail to that connection except to say that any influence it may have has very little bearing on the ground-level troops that do the actual teaching in Eikaiwas.
Again, apologies for coming at you with claws extended. You caught me at the end of particularly long day.
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michaelqtodd
LFRAgain Sorry for dissing your profession.Was unnecessary.After 9 years at it you know more than all of us put together. Actually got that from a fairly good source though.The Enigma of Japanese Power by Karel von Wolfenden (sp?)Maybe he is wrong.You are right should not have put it out as a fact. Why do they make it so boring though?
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LFRAgain
michaelqtodd,
No offense taken. I don’t profess to be an expert at anything, but I’m fairly confident in the professional relationships I’ve developed in my time here, and I do believe in the many teachers I’ve come to know and respect.
I haven't read Wolfenden's work specifically, but in other materials that I've read, I have come across some suggestions that the whole of Japanese education seemed to be structured towards accomplishing the dual goals of both educating as well as preparing students to "ganbaru."
I've also seen socio-anthropologists go to great lengths to link the tedium and arguable excessiveness of after school club activities to this idea of priming kids for a corporate life of seeming endless sacrifice for the ultimate good of the group. This idea was forwarded at about the same time as Wolfenden’s work was published, when the world was struggling with the tremendous success of the Japanese economy in the early 80s, and “Japan Inc.” was a nickname that bore none-too-friendly connotations. So the idea is not foreign to me.
In any case, I think that both aspects of English education have vast amounts of room for improvement. But I also believe the causes for failings in either private Eikaiwa or formal education are impossible to compare, both being entirely different realms.
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Simon_Foston
Well, getting back to the question of there still being "bad apples in the barrel," I can't see why there wouldn't be. I'm not aware of school operators changing their hiring practices significantly since NOVA went under, so if there were bad teachers before then there still will be now. Furthermore, most native English speakers who come here to teach only stay two or three years at the very most, and for most of them that just isn't long enough to really get good at the job. Besides, I don't know if really high standards of English can be expected in a country where the most valued indicators of English ability are multi-choice comprehension tests.
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mtimjones
While not entirely on topic, I'm impressed with the English language capabilities of the Japanese. I traveled to Odawara two years ago, and was blown away by the number of people that I ran into who spoke very fluent English. In Odawara train station, for example, I walked up ready to point and spew my token Japanese phrases to buy a ticket, and the lady behind the counter spoke perfect English and was very helpful and pleasant to this gaijin.
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Cicada
Simon Foston:
Yes, and moreover, if they do stay longer, they will then become ineligible for many jobs, because the hiring practice involves eschewing Japan residents and directly hiring from overseas.
You can see this right here in the JT classified section, where some jobs are restricted to those who are not living in Japan (I believe those were GABA ads, but it is typical for AEON and other NOVA-like enterprises).
And this policy often is implemented in the "education" sector as well, although the expected time period is often longer than the usual 1-3 years of the "industry" sector.
The hiring practices of NOVA-like enterprises are in reality an extension of Japanese immigration policy. This is the same idea as the JET program, which was originally an immigration initiative, not an education one. The big Eikaiwa chains are almost like designated immigration authorities helping regulate the inflow and outflow of foreign residents. So (if one believes the Yakuza influence) the people in charge of hiring foreigners for temporary Eikaiwa work in Japan are the most anti-foreigner faction possible.
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Cicada
LFRGain,
I appreciate that, but I deserved a smack or two for injecting sarcasm into my earlier post, which sometimes invites misunderstanding.
I agree with you that the issue of ownership or control "has very little bearing on the ground-level troops that do the actual teaching in Eikaiwas."
Speculation about Yakuza control of Gaijin jobs interests me not only for the contrast with education sector politics, but also for the similarity to overall control of Gaijin population inflow and outflow.
By this latter, I'm referring to the recruitment of laborers, housekeepers, massage parlor girls, etc. which is of course controlled by Yakuza. No one disputes that, but it is not too much stretch of imagination to realize that likely most Westerners teaching English in Japan have in effect been recruited by Yakuza.
And certainly it is not something that would give any optimism for improving conditions for foreigners.
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