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16 still missing on volcano; typhoon threatens recovery effort

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"...a further reminder of the country’s vulnerability to the wrath of nature."

No kidding! Japan's been getting it in full these past few years, though it could and can still be a lot worse. This typhoon's timing couldn't be worse, and I shiver to think of the landslides it's likely to cause on Ondake if it hits full force or even just dumps a lot of rain on the area. As land starved as Japan is, and as much as there are past-times to build on and around dangerous places and live on and visit them, people need to REALLY start realizing that things like this are unpredictable and will happen at some point, not just that they 'could happen', or that it's 'unlikely'.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Having heard the explanation that legally in Japan a doctor has to decide if a person is indeed dead, and that is why they were temporarily labelled "no heart beat or lung function", I then asked why it took five days for the doctors to pronounce on their demise.

Oh, no, I was told, that is not actually the case. The doctor has to give a cause of death in every case, and that is why it took so much time.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Death comes from all places, angles and time, yet, this I feel could have been prevented, the hikers should have at least been warned that from September 10th there had been seismic activity at the volcano and that it is active.

Depending where you are in Japan, the wet and windy will have already arrived!

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

And yet it was a phreatic explosion, one caused by steam, not magma and as such one that wouldn't be detected by seismometers. From your previous posts you seem to be determined to blame someone but I haven't seen a single expert suggest there should have been warnings. In fact they all say there were lack of geological warnings.

It COULD have potentially been predicted had their been gas sensors on the volcano (but that is debatable at best) which could have indicated a phreatic explosion however there weren't any. There are 12 seismometers on the mountain as well as five GPS instruments and a tiltometer. 11 minutes before the explosion the seismometers detected a tremor, the GPS and tiltometer didn't show anything.

If you gave warnings for every tremor, despite there being no other suggestions of an explosion then you would create a boy that cried wolf scenario. It's a terrible, terrible tragedy that 60 odd people have died doing what they did on a beautiful day and hopefully lessons will be learned from it. But those lessons will be based on the science community learning more about phreatic explosions and seeing if they can detect further warning signs. It won't involve warning everyone every time there is a little bit of a bump.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

UK9393: I am no expert, but according to this report a few days ago this was unpredictable within our current understanding of seismology/vulcanology.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/opinions/view/sudden-eruption-of-volcano-very-rare

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The death of so many in such a short span of time is heartbreaking.

I am a regular hiker myself but cannot imagine the fear and pain all of them must have felt when an outing on a fine day turned into death.

My condolences to the family members of each and every victim and I hope the injured recover soon.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

I think nandaka... is just questioning why after 5+days the obviously deceased can't be referred to as such until declared so by a doctor.

We all know the custom here re this, but I think that by now it's common sense as well as respectful, to refer to a lifeless person in a body bag as deceased.

Tonights nhk news was still referring to the 16 people "trapped" on the mountain. I'm a great believer in hope, but with science explaining well the horrific conditons on the volcano (300km/h falling rocks, 100+c degrees, layers of scorching ash as well as the impenetrable barrier of deadly toxic gases) after nearly a week, I feel it's wrong to infer people are still alive and awaiting rescue.

Hopefully I will be proven wrong and I will offer a thousand sincere apologies.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

For place where you can't swim where's there is no netting, you can't swim without an on duty lifesaver, you can't swim in a t-shirt, you can't, you can't you can't... you can't go up the mountain when snowy, you can't, etc, well this oversight, this what's to worry about approach to volcanos just doesn't sit or fit with the Japanese way of 'Safety First' ALWAYS. Seismic activity at a volcano, is a precursor to something

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Seismic activity at a volcano, is a precursor to something

Really? I lived in Yamanashi at the foot of Mt. Fuji for five years. We had tremors regularly, and Fuji didn't blow even once, so pray tell what exactly that seismic activity was a precursor to, as it most definitely wasn't a precursor to the volcano erupting.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Educator - thanks for your response.

The "bodies in bags" i were referring to were the more than likely deceased victims I saw on footage, wrapped and strapped onto stretchers being taken off the mountains. I don't think they had been officially declared dead at that time.

I never suggested that bodies were kept in that condition for 5+ days.

And concerning your reference to "language". I also agree, most people would not believe or be mislead to believe that people were actually alive, my point was and is, why use an expression such as "stranded on the mountain" when we can all safely assume 5+days after in horrendous conditions that there is no-one stranded.

Saying "missing" or "whereabouts unknown" is quite appropriate, but stranded is just too far off the mark. Whether people accept it or not, "stranded" does have connotations of "still alive". The medias reluctance to convey directly the situation (esp in the circumstances I noted) is not confined to this story alone. It's commonplace. If someone has obviously with no doubt passed on, why veil it in a vague euphemism?

And I'm not sure how your heaven analogy fits. For believers heaven is where dead people go.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Browny1, I agree that some of the language used is not precise and "stranded" is inappropriate. However, English is a second language in Japan. I doubt that someone checked the etymology of the word in question.

That a doctor must ascertain the cause of death (being hit by stones, for example) is only correct. However, if the media reports a state of "cardiac arrest" or "pulmonary arrest," that does mean no heart beat and no breath. Pretty much a no brainer. Death is quite clear.

It's not nearly as gray as (hiss through teeth) "that's very difficult" meaning "no" when to a Westerner that means "try again with more effort and you'll succeed' or "try another strategy which will work." That said, in time and with enough attention to nuances it is little more than learning a new code and making allowances for editors or translators who get stuff wrong from time to time.

Heaven as an analogy whether you believe in it or not is fine. Anyone in heaven is not bodily alive. People alive in any spiritual realm no matter what the belief system are physically dead.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Educator and philly, unlike "passed away" which in our language means to have died with 100% certainty, cardiac arrest does not mean dead to us because people are often revived in this state with the use of a defibrillator. It is only after either defibrillator resuscitation fails, or that the lifeless person in cardiac arrest clearly cannot be revived with any such technique that we refer to them as dead. That's why we find the use of cardiac arrest in this context to be insulting, when they clearly died days before they were found. It implies potential for revival which is just cruel.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Seismic activity at a volcano, is a precursor to something.

Yes. It is a precursor to MORE seismic activity at a volcano.

Japan was created because of the collision between two tectonic plates. There isn't a single point of the country that doesn't have seismic activity below it - be it a location where there's a volcano or otherwise. By your comments, everyone should be cowering in fear at every tremor because the volcano might erupt. There's a REASON vulcanologists don't raise an alarm every time there's a tremor under a volcano and that's because seismic activity alone is not an indicator of an imminent eruption. There needs to be other tell-tales before an alarm can be considered. (Steam vents activating, a lava dome forming, etc.)

2 ( +2 / -0 )

we find the use of cardiac arrest in this context to be insulting

Cardiac arrest means heart stopped. After several days on a mountain without a defibrillator or possibility of CPR it should be clear that deaths have occurred. That Japanese protocol does not permit "death" to be broadcast until a doctor has confirmed the obvious, is logic easy enough to understand as well. That "cardiac arrest" continues "not mean dead to us because people are often revived in this state" might need some re-examination on your part. Especially (as you say) in this context.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Of course we understand their 'logic', we're just saying we have a problem with their logic. I understand the logic of many things I'd never support, because I also understand where their logic fails and why. Just as you said, in this context it should be beyond clear that these cases are deaths. That's why it would be far more appropriate to say that x amount of people are "thought" dead. That phrasing would both legally steer clear of declaring death without a doctor's examination, as well as steer clear of inappropriately dancing around the hard truth everyone knows.

Honestly, some of their bodies were even completely crushed, and you say "cardiac arrest"? That is beyond cringe-worthy.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

well yeah it wouldn't even have to be 'thought' dead, there are tons of way you could say it more specifically. You can say how many bodies were found even.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Educator - thank you.

I agree - on many news agencies reports, I didn't hear a reference to "stranded". But it was reported on nhk, so I mentioned it.

Re how death is reported I already acknowledged that in my first post (We all know the custom here re this,..)

And I'm with you re philly's comments - and as he indicated it could well be sloppy/unskilled reporting by nhk - which occurs relatively often.

Re my comfort with the term "passed away - actually I said passed on" - yes it is a euphemism. But within the limits of my English world, in the event of a deadly tragedy passed away/on has only one meaning - death. No dying, no half-dead, no coma - just dead. So it's appropriate. Stranded doesn't mean cardiac arrest or death - that's all.

And my reference to heaven was in reply to your use of heaven and my full statement which you didn't quote was " For believers, heaven is where dead people go". Believers being the operative.

All languages have their own idiosyncracies, nuances, usages etc - more often than not reflecting a cultural leaning - just sometimes, even with the allowances of such shifts, I feel an inappropriateness in expressions used, esp in a society where the avoidance of treading on toes is a daily affair. But i guess, from a positive point, that's what contributes to the fascination of languages and cultures. Like calling school girl prostitution enjo kosai ( helping relationship)? Veil it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This is so sad for those that have lost their lives and their families.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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