3-year-old boy drowns in kindergarten pool
KANAGAWA —
Police said Tuesday that a three-year-old boy drowned in a kindergarten paddling pool in Yamato, Kanagawa Prefecture, on Monday.
According to police, the boy, who has been identified as Takahiro Irei, was one of 30 children playing in the pool at around 11:30 a.m. under the supervision of two members of staff. According to investigators, the pool was around 20-30 cm deep and five meters in diameter.
Police said the boy was not seen to be struggling at the time he drowned, but after the other children left the pool, a staff member noticed him floating face down in the water. He was taken to hospital where he was pronounced dead a short time later.
Police are currently investigating the circumstances that led up to the boy’s death, and the supervision system that was in place, in order to determine whether or not there was negligence on the part of the kindergarten employees.
Compiled from news reports
Order by Time Order by Popularity
162 Comments
Login to comment
10
Patrick Smash
2 people supervising 15 kids each. Absolutely awful, but as a parent I would not give my permission for this type of activity for my 3-year-old. And I bet they had no idea about CPR and just waited for an ambulance. Truly horrific and should be illegal.
-2
Papigiulio
@patrick: assumptions dont help anyone. We dont know the details of how and what happened. but yeah 30 kids for 2 supervisors seems alot. I feel really sorry for those parents. :(
-3
sillygirl
30 kids + 2 supervisors = tragedy. yes, we don`t know what really happened but the aforementioned is a receipe for disaster.
2
Patrick Smash
Papigiulip, yeah, we don't know for sure. My assumptions are based on many years of experience though unfortunately. I can't even imagine how this feels for the parents and I don't think they'll consider the level of supervision to have been adequate. Part of the problem is often that the supervisors stay out of the sun, and are therefore not really supervsing anything. But yeah, I agree with you, assumptions are not useful and nothing changes anyway.
0
Zenny11
Can't deduce anything from above.
Hate it when JT does that as the info are just random bits that looked news worthy.
0
Skeptical Hippo
Glorified babysitters, the lot!
cloe, miamum, stranger, tmarie, himehentai etc.... You still feel that strongly about having your kids in these kind of places?
2
Disillusioned
Two people supervising, 30 kids in a one foot deep pool and one kid drowns without anybody noticing it? Grounds for negligence? Who are they gonna blame? The other kids? - sadly, I fear the life of this kid could probably have been saved if the pool supervisors had been trained in CPR, as are all kindergarten staff in Australia.
-8
steve@CPFC
Kids being looked after by non family members for profit and without enough supervision are of course more likely to come to harm in this manner.
0
horrified
Article lacks details.
0
Skeptical Hippo
I bet the parents of that little boy are going through hell atm
-2
cleo
utagaibukai kaba-chan - (Who's cloe?) It's a kindergarten not a day care or a baby-sitter. Probably the vast majority of the kiddies have mothers who are sahms. Kindergarten is what some folk call preschool. Are you advocating keeping children out of school, too?
That said, I agree with Paddy Smash. There should have been at least another three people actively supervising (not standing in the shade chatting).
The family must be devastated.
Heck, that's not a strong enough word.
1
LoveNot
Actually I am sad both for the boy and for the supervisors. The teachers have big responsibility and even if they tried hard, accidents can happen. Sad.
0
Skeptical Hippo
Could you perhaps keep it to the most common language (English) used here on this site. I've been living here in Japan for 20 years. No need to brag about your so-called Japanese ability to me... LOL
No, that's not what I'm advocating. Why do you think so? I know it's a kindergarten. It say so in the article. IMO, they (them "teachers") are glorified babysitters though and this horrible accident, which could and should have been prevented, proved that opinion to be correct (again).
0
steve@CPFC
Cleo; the childs parents must ensure that the people with whom they place their kids are well trained trustworthy people. sahms do not come into it. I hope lessons are learned from this and an inquiry will be held to prevent this happening again. Is it legal for a kindergarten to place that amount of kids in danger with lack of supervision?
I would suggest all parents contact their kinderagrtens to ensure their child has suitable supervision. If assurances cannot be provided, remove the child from the place.
3
TokyoTanuki
I agree with Steve above.
Pools are extremely dangerous for young children, and any parent should confirm the ratio of children to adults to children is high (e.g. 1:6) before permitting others to supervise their children around water.
-2
Skeptical Hippo
Are you advocating to close all pools at all nurseries, kindergartens and elementary schools?
1
cleo
Couldn't agree more.
-4
Skeptical Hippo
Great! And how do you plan to go about this? Any helpful suggestions, advice, tips for other readers here?
0
cleo
Hippo, I don't understand your question. How do I plan to go about getting parents to ensure that the people they place their kids with are well trained worthy people? Shouldn't the parents be doing that themselves? I know I did when my kids were little. Went round all the local kindergartens, asked questions, crossed them off my list if I didn't get the right answers.
0
dolphingirl
Absolutely horrible for everyone involved. The parents, the teachers and all the other kids at the school. 30 5-year-old's shouldn't all be in one pool in the first place. A maximum of 20 perhaps with 2 or 3 teachers supervising.
-1
Zenny11
Skep.
Like anywhere check the ratings for places, schools, etc and also visit them before deciding on one.
Ex.: When you apply for a Hoikuen/School you can specify 3 in order of preference, actual placement depends on opening and your own rating(both parents working, etc, etc). In some wards placement can also vary on your physical address.
My son was at the highest rated Hoikuen in our ward, rated higher than the 2 Yochien around. Just got to do some leg-work, speak to locals, etc. Before he got into the Hoikuen we had to have him placed in private one as our application as mid-year.
Back on topic.
Don't recall news about a toddler drowning at a kindergarten before, but since skep been here longer than me I am sure he/she can point cases out.
0
dolphingirl
Sorry I guess that would be 3 to 5-year-old's.
2
TokyoTanuki
Yes if the staff to children ratio prevents the safe supervision of children. 30 children cannot be safely monitored in a tiny pool with such a relatively deep water. it wuld be difficult to even maintain line of sight on all of the children with 2 staff.
Kids can cool off playing games around a few sprinklers and/or a hose, and the chance that they drown would be next to nothing - or the supervisors could have had a smaller number in the pool at any time, and engage the other children in activites that do not require such intense supervision.
0
miamum
Glorified babysitters, the lot!
cloe, miamum, stranger, tmarie, himehentai etc.... You still feel that strongly about having your kids in these kind of places?
Yes, absolutely. This was not a daycare centre, but a yochien. The child was 3, therefore I am assuming he was nen-sho, in one of the 3 year kindergartens (the ones in our area are only 2 years and the children start at age 4). Personally I think that IS a little young to be starting kindergarten so I put mine in from age 4, not 3. Do you think children should be at home with no pre-school until the age of 6/7? I don`t.
Yochien teachers are well trained and well qualified. This was a tragic accident. It can happen anywhere. It does happen anywhere.
That said, I also agree that a 1:15 ratio of teachers to kids is way too low. My son has a pool in his school and I have been there to check - there are always 4 people around the pool and 31 in his class. I am seeing his teacher for a meeting tomorrow actually, and I will be bringing it up, just to confirm safety. But no, I am not especially worried.
0
Skeptical Hippo
miamum, gimme a break! If the "teachers" at this particular kindergarten were really well trained and well qualified then these accidents wouldn't happen in the first place. It happens BECAUSE they are NOT well trained and NOT qualified. If you were so sure about your opinions you wouldn't need checking tomorrow at your son's school. I think mother's should look after their children as much and long as possible. Here in Japan that means until they are ready to go the elementary school. In other countries that may mean until they go to preschool at age 5. There shouldn't be a need for married parents not to take 100% responsibility for the upbringing of their child(ren) especially when they are still at such a young and vulnerable age as 3 or 4.
-2
Zenny11
Skep.
Of course they are NOT as well trained & qualified as a SAHM, who NEVER received a minute of training, etc. Pity that they call themselves PROFESSIONALS and are goverment certified, when your average SAHM is better qualified and trained.
Do you actually listen to yourself and your views at times?
-2
Zenny11
BTW, still waiting for those reports of other kids that drowned at those "horrid" facilities.
0
Skeptical Hippo
@TokyoTanuki: Finally a voice of reason! Yes, I totally agree that there are many alternatives to what's currently being done at these nurseries and kindergartens. Also, let the parents take their kid(s) to swimming pools during the summer! There are thousands of pools in Japan, public and privately run. Making a day out of it with the whole family where parents can take turns supervising and playing with their child(ren) is much better and safer than having some stranger be in charge of their precious lives. Parents nowadays think their child(ren)'s teachers at nursery, kindergarten and elementary school should take over their duties as parents. Unbelievable! Monster parents is what they calm 'm here in Japan. I can totally see why...
0
steve@CPFC
Zenny11; 2 People in charge of 30 small children is not professional.
1
Skeptical Hippo
Zenny11> One mother looking after her own child (even if she has more than one) is of course way more qualified than a someone who has to look after 30 kids (of strangers) at any one time, and will definitely be able to do a better job. For you to think different is..... I'm speechless that you would even post this in a joking fashion especially because of the tragedy being discussed here. Not funny!
0
Zenny11
Steve.
Not disagreeing there but we don't know the other surrounding circumstances, now do we?
Like I said the above article was quickly clobbered together from various news-sources, so all we got are the "juicy" sound-bites and no real facts/data.
-3
Zenny11
Skep.
I do recall way more articles here of kids getting injured or dying here while under the care of their SAHM than while under professional care.
There are Millions of kids that are doing quiet well under professional care and I would say they outnumber kids that stay at home.
Anyway you got your views and I don't agree with them as I find them way to radical.
1
CrazyJoe
The pool is circular with a diameter of about 4 meters and 20cm depth. The staff immediately took the boy to a clinic next door but the doctor couldn't revive him and neither the hospital that the ambulance had taken him. 30 kids is a lot too many to supervise with only two teachers. It was only a fifteen minute pool session. The first ten minutes the kids were playing splashing water at one another. During the remaining five minutes, half the kids left the pool to take a shower and that's when the teacher found the boy drowned face down.
1
Skeptical Hippo
There are too many (fatal) accidents taking place at these kind of facilities all over the world to seriously consider putting one's child in just for the purpose of being able to work so that you can buy stuff you think you need. I remember an Japanese news article from last year where the youchien or hoikuen owner backed out ot the driveway of the facility not looking in his rearview mirror and running over one of his infant students. These are not isolated cases and anyone not believing me is free to do Internet searches on this topic. I don't have the time nor the inclination to do that for you (zenny11 etc).
1
smithinjapan
"....in order to determine whether or not there was negligence on the part of the kindergarten employees."
Yeah, couldn't have been negligence in a little boy dying in a kindergarten pool, so it must be investigated! What a joke. Yet another example of a privately run 'school' that just sits and lets the children play, and in this case die, while they collect money. What are the qualifications of the staff, may I ask? I'll still never forget the day a friend of mine who had been running a pre-school for years said, "I got my license to run a preschool!"
1
himehentai
according to Japanese government standards (for hoikuens approved by the goverment)
You are supposed to have 1 hoikushi (certified nursery teacher) for every 3 children of 0 years old. You are supposed to have 1 hoikushi for every 4 children of 1 year old You are supposed to have 1 hoikushi for every 6 children of 2 years old You are supposed to have 1 hoikushi for every 10 children of 3 years old You are supposed to have 1 hoikushi for every 30 children of 4 years old
However the problems arise when you have groups of children in varying age, like at a kindergarten. Licensed Hoikuens are very tightly controlled, they get assessed by the government at least once a year formally, but also face "drop in" visits. But Yochiens are a completely different kettle of fish.
I feel very comfortable leaving my child in a licensed hoikuen, because I know for a fact that the government do check. However yochiens ... a completely different story. Yochiens only actually need one licensed teacher to open, and the rest could be people off the street.
Thats why I will be keeping my child in a Hoikuen as long as possible.
And steve - nonsense again. This kind of accident is rare. You are far more likely to read about a mothers boyfriend killing a child because "I couldn't stop it crying" or a child falling off a balcony because the mother went "shopping and left him watching TV" than you are about something like this.
1
Foxie
2 people for 30 kids is just not enough. The same could be said for lifeguards at beaches here, they are not enough and they don't have the right equipment. miamum, some people just don't understand what it means looking after 3 kids 24/7 because they have never been in such a situation. You have to forgive them for their ignorance.
2
smithinjapan
miamum: "Yochien teachers are well trained and well qualified. This was a tragic accident. It can happen anywhere. It does happen anywhere."
So why are we hearing about a 3-year-old as a corpse? SOME schools are qualified, but many are not, and many at the schools who ARE licensed are still not qualified themselves. They are part-time workers in many cases, who often take their qualifications tests WHILE WORKING! I don't understand why they're allowed to work at all without the proper requirements.
If they were well trained, the boy in question, RIP, would not be dead, would he? Accidents happen, and then incidents happen when negligence is involved. This is the latter -- 30 kids in a pool with two 'teachers' probably talking about how humid it is while standing in the shade and not even bothering to look at the kids they are in charge of.
I feel so sorry for the parents. While I'm glad Japan is not nearly as litigious as the US, by contrast, I hope the parents have grounds for suing the school for every penny it's worth and close it down.
-1
steve@CPFC
Looking after her children is a mothers duty unless she is unable to do so due to physical or mental health issues.
The staff that were present shoudl be charged for at least neglect and possibly for manslaughter and possible the owners as well.We must understand that care at profit run places is put after profits in most cases.
1
Skeptical Hippo
I have seen the inner workings of both hoikuens and youchiens without any pre-arranged settings for the parents to observe (which is so different from that what's really going on) to have concluded that there's nothing professional about either. Sure, they make it all look like it's perfectly fine, under control, professional and safe on open house days, sports festivals etc but on any ordinary day these places are in complete chaos. Think about them as an ordinary Japanese home. You wouldn't get invited to one or let in unannounced because of the mess that's usually there. They'd need a week to put things in order to make it look presentable. Same with these kind of facilities. There must be some chain-style eikaiwa teachers out here.... Same thing. At trial lessons everything seems under control, lots of fun, professional setting etc. When the (cats) moms are away, the (mice) teachers will play. Most of these places are a joke. You should see what's going on at elementary schools, junior and senior high schools..... As I've said before, put a tape/voice recorder in your child's pocket or bag the next time and hear for yourself.
-1
Elbuda Mexicano
These stupid bastards should have this kindergarten SHUT DOWN!!! all of these bastards should be put in jail! RIP little drowned boy out in Yamato, Kanagawa ken.
0
miamum
smithinjapan: if you look at the UK news today there is a story about a little girl who drowned in a pool today in a parent-toddler swimming class in a local sports centre. The teachers there were qualified and she was in the care of her father. And yet, it still happened. It is awful, tragic, and my heart goes out to the parents, in both these cases and in any case where something like this happens. Doctors are well qualified, but accidents happen. IT professionals are (generally!) well trained and then suddenly hit the wrong button and find themselves staring at the blue screen of death. Don`t even go there with bankers. My point is only that I think training, experience, etc has little to do with this (until we know more details) but there were DEFINITELY not enough supervisors watching the children.
I don`t know if this was a public or private kindergarten, but public ones to the best of my knowledge are not run for profit.
foxie I
m not sure I understand what you are saying but are you suggesting that I dont know what it is like to look after 3 children 24/7? If so, what do you think I do every school holiday? every weekend? Every one day a week that I am not working? When I was on maternity leave?1
chewitup
Defiinitely not enough people watching 30 kids of around 3 years of age.
-3
cleo
The youchien my kids went to told parents they were welcome to pop in any time to see what was going on. Sometimes yes it did look like things were bordering a bit on the chaotic but kids having a good time exude chaos. There was still always plenty of professional supervision and the teachers always knew when to step in and sort things out, and the chaos was interspersed with periods of structured reading, singing, learning, a chance to calm down. At pool time the PTA took turns to help out, so that there were always more than enough people watching the kids.
3
Patrick Smash
There was one last year where they miscounted the number of kids coming back from an excursion and left him to cook to death in a school minivan. Inadequate supervision costs yet another life.
1
Foxie
miamum, you misunderstood completely. I respect you for doing all the work you are doing. I often watch the kids of my friend and I know how tired I feel afterwards.
1
RAINkyutech
It is bad news. I am sad. Be careful in the pool
-5
ihavegreatlegs
Corporal, why so negative and wanting man slaughter cases brought up.
If you ever saw how tiny those pools are, you would know that 2 supervisors for 30 kids is more than adequate, especially if they are in the pool with them. One must see an autopsy first to see if the child actually drowned.
Go to some of your public swimming pools. 4 guards max covering Olympic size pools with at least a thousand people in each. You can only stand. Forget about swimming.
RIP little boy.
7
Samantha Ueno
I work in a kindergarten and I am one of 4 full-time staff for a school with maximum class of 8, maximum 3 classes. our Japanese boss is a licensed hoikushi, and we do the pool with max 15cm of water, max 10 4-5 year olds, 8 2-3 year olds at a time with minimum 2 teachers regardless of age or amount. I cannot imagine the quality of a yochien that deems it acceptable to put 30 children including 3 year olds under the supervision of 2 teachers in such deep water. Not only is it dangerous, according to hoikuen regulations, its illegal. If I were the parents I would do everything in my power to make sure that place is shut down.
0
steve@CPFC
ihavegreatlegs; "more than adequate", not at all, a child died.
Samantha; well put, i certainly hope there is a suitable punishment to those responsible.
1
Fadamor
Foxie brought up the point I was going to make: two people supervising 30 children at a wading pool (at a 1:15 ratio) is "not enough", yet life guards are continually asked to watch over hundreds of children at beaches in ratios much higher than 1:15. Next time you go to a public pool, count the number of life guards ON DUTY compared to the number of people they should be watching. To be consistent, all those saying the ratio was too high should then refuse to ever go to a public pool.
This isn't to say these two supervisors should be held free of blame. There's no indication in the article of just how big this wading pool was, but 30 kids in any pool need to be watched closely - ESPECIALLY if they're this young.
2
steve@CPFC
Fadamor; At beaches it is expected for children at that age to be supervised by their parents. This is much different than a public pool, this is childen that are too young to look after themselves and of course while at the kindergarten they were in the care of the establishment.
3
Gwragged
This kind of news makes me want to homeschool. These children were not adequately supervised during a potentially dangerous activity, I agree manslaughter charges should be brought. At public pools a 3 - 5 year old would have a parent there and not be swimming alone. Surely even in Japan a parent would not let a 3 - 5 year old go to the pool alone! Outside of Japan Ive been refused entry to a pool because I had three children with me, and I was the only adult - the rules were 1 adult to 2 children per group.
2
gifu
A few people here have asked how to check if a kindergarten has adequate supervision or not. One thing I did was visit the head teacher unannounced at a time when there were classes in session, saying, of course, that I understood s/he was busy, and that I could either wait or make an appointment for later. What I wanted to see was whether the children were starved for attention or not. In some places I visited, the kids were so hungry for adult attention that they swarmed around me, holding on to my hand and trying to follow me to the office. In other places the kids would look up, maybe say hello, and then go back to the more absorbing task of pouring sand into a bucket or chasing their best friend. The former places got ticked off my list. The latter places stayed on because those kids obviously had enough TLC and supervision from their teachers.
0
miamum
Ah foxie, in that case I apologise, I did totally misunderstand! Sorry - I am so flipping tired these days (baby up AGAIN 4 times last night!) I don`t know what I am reading half the time!
0
Skeptical Hippo
Yes, I remember that one too. There are many more of these terrible accidents involving kids under the supervision of these so-called professional teachers. Unfortunately Japan Today and other websites delete their articles after some time so I cannot prove this is true to the non-believers out there.
0
Skeptical Hippo
There you have it, folks! Another voice of reason... Thanks for posting this.
0
Skeptical Hippo
A three-year-old boy died because of their negligence!!!! I really wouldn't be calling that adequate supervision!!!
-1
Skeptical Hippo
They should be held accountable, brought o justice and the kindie in question put out of business. Yes, business... They shouldn't be allowed to be in the business of putting little children age 3, 4 and 5 in harms way. Close 'm down!
-3
Skeptical Hippo
Exactly! Comparing beaches with their 5 square meter pool???? Unbelievable!!! Like I said, the parents should take their kid(s) to the beach. They shouldn't rely to have unqualified strangers take them on properly unsupervised little trips to the pool and little excursions, walks away from the premises of these "schools" etc. Too much can go wrong as has been proven again this time. I see them take toddlers in carts around the neighborhood in Tokyo where I live. Some of these kids are in the carts, lots of them walk hand in hand around the carts. 20-30 infant kids "supervised" by merely two or three "teachers" taking daily strolls, crossing busy streets, chatting away among each other not paying close attention to the kids. Horrible accidents about to happen.... daily.
0
Skeptical Hippo
Good info, even better advice. Thanks!
2
Fadamor
If you'd read my comment you'd find I was comparing the ratios that were deemed unacceptable at the pool but apparently not a problem at a beach.
This particular pool was 5 meters in DIAMETER, so you're talking more like a 19 meter^2 pool. If all the kids were in the pool at the same time, each kid would only have a little more than a meter^2 of pool to play in. That's too crowded for safe monitoring.
0
Fadamor
Edit: 30 kids, so they had only a little more than a HALF meter^2 to play in. Even worse.
-1
Skeptical Hippo
Fadamore> So they allowed the toddler to be trampled to death??
-1
Zenny11
Can't really talk about other places.
At my sons Hoikuen they rented 2 small pools(age 2-3 & 4-6), there was always a teacher each per pool(yep, in and among the kids), and one or two outside.
The Pools were more to cool them down and let them splash a bit, the kids weren't in all that long. And took turns to get in, kids outside you play besides the pool(cooler).
I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that 2 adults per 30 kids is baad, but as was said at many private places the rules are not well followed or enforced.
-1
Skeptical Hippo
You'd be surprised...
Exactly! Close 'm down! And parents..... Don't put your kids in these facilities unless absolutely necessary. Wanting to work to buy stuff you think you need is not a reason or excuse to have unqualified strangers "look after" your kids IF you can do this yourself. Remember, all the stuff you buy, you cannot take with you when your time is up. The memories, you can. I hope this little boy has enough fond family memories to take with him to heaven.
0
pamelot
If you leave your 3 year old, you'd better know good goddamn well every aspect of that child's day, and who to come directly to if "shit happens."
Parents trust way too much, as they feel "pressed" and accept whatever, as they feel fortunate to have this care, as there is a shortage of it.
THAT is the recipe for disaster.
Children are probably turned away for care, if parents ask too many questions, or "interfere" too often-
30 trusting little ones to two people, crammed into a small watery space, is inexcusable, negligent, and criminal.
10 would be manageable, and even then, accidents happen if you are not watching.
30 is beyond the pale.
They are all to blame; the kindergarten, the caregivers, and the parents.
RIP little sprout.
-1
Skeptical Hippo
Thank you pamelot for spreading the word (and for telling them parents too!).
Well, it seems almost all of us are of the same opinion.
almost all...
0
Adhikari Dinesh
What the hell are the teachers doing they should take care of everyone n I think is their fault nonsense
0
Elbuda Mexicano
This makes me so angry! I feel so sorry, so sad for this dead little boy! These criminal kindergarten workers should be horse whipped and thrown in jail for life!
-1
Skeptical Hippo
miamum>
Try telling that to the parents of this little boy. You think they're not facepalming themselves at the moment regretting putting their little one in that place. Are you saying you wouldn't have regretted putting your child in such a place if it had happened to you? Realy?? You would and could just say "shouganai"? I find that hard to believe...
2
jforce
Tough to really get a grasp of the situation with such little info about the school and teachers. With what is written, 30 kids at one time in a little pool is tough to manage - especially nen-sho kids. Not to mention they are all excited to be in the pool jumping around being crazy. With that said, the 2 "employees" (assume they are not licensed) probably lost track and one child died as a (horrible) result. I can't imagine what those city facilities and "employees" are like. But the incident happened on their watch and it's the school's responsibility regardless how little info is listed in this garbage article.
Those of you that are targeting parents and such for putting their kids in daycare facilities at young ages are completely jaded and out of touch. It's tough to make ends meet out there. Single incomes just don't cut it anywhere in this country. I agree that a mother should be home with the kids up until starting elementary, but this isn't the reality for most families. And, ... whether or not the parents investigate a facility is not even relevant here. Why not go even further and say couples shouldn't have kids knowing they'll have to have a dual income to support their family and send their kids to daycare. Do you just need a reason to bicker about how superior you are to this poor family that lost their little boy?
This is a horrible circumstance and it happened. Let the investigation go on and let those associated grieve.
-2
Skeptical Hippo
And to think the Japanese government until recently had a plan to throw hoikuens (nurseries) and youchiens (kindergartens) in the mix! Children as young as 1 year old (some even younger than that) under the "care" of those kind of "teachers"! Can you imagine?? Thank God they scrapped that plan. Thank God!
0
Gwragged
Hippo, do you homeschool your children? This was not an accident, it was negligence on the part of the kindergarten teachers. Do you really think parents who send their children to school are negligent?
-5
Skeptical Hippo
I have my children attend school when and where they are required to.
1
SpanishEyez37
30 kids to 2 teachers + a pool is a recipe for disaster.
People who are saying that we don't know the details that lead up to this: the kid was found face down in the pool. I think that is detail enough to show that someone was not doing their job.
1
Gwragged
So, if God forbid, there was an accident at your child's school, would you blame yourself for sending them to school?
1
Gwragged
These children were not in daycare, they were in kindergarten - education. Quite what they were doing in a pool splashing if they were meant to be learning I don't know. The parents did not send this poor child out to play alone, they put him in a kindergarten, they are in no way negligent. The negligence lies with the kindergarten. I did not know that children could go to kindy at 3!
0
cleo
Education at kindergarten level is mostly play. I wouldn't want to send a kid to a preschool where all the kids did all day was pore over books and rote-learn stuff. There's nothing wrong with the kids spending a bit of time splashing around in water, so long as it's properly supervised.
0
Zenny11
Skep.
I do agree that kids should decide their own directions. Now I need to give a bit of background info here(bear with me).
Neither me nor my wife attended Uni, yet I pulled a great salary all my life(which outperformed grads as I had 4yrs more actual experience). I was fully qualified at age 17(shock & awe). I always paid a higher income tax than my wifes earning but she wanted to work. So we made arrangements. Money was not an issue but if I forced her to stay home to raise the kids .....
Now back home(my country) we take growing up in steps. 13yrs old you can sleep in same bed as opposite sex(no touching/sure as hell), 14 yrs old sex of all types is LEGAL as is choosing ones own religion, 16 yrs you can smoke legally(might have changed) and can also get a small licence for bikers, 18yrs you are an adult, 19yrs you can vote and at age 22yrs you can enter a gambling establishment(if you can provide monetary security).
Now I grew up under those rules and we could roam free till we broke the rules(Woe to whom who did). And I am raising my son accordingly and he is doing well compared to others.
My Mum stayed home till we were in school and than decided she can go back to work. Pre-school from age 4 is standard for us.
In short accidents do happen, regardless of culture and how we want to take care of our kids.
And the best schools, grades and intentions mean little in the real world unless the kid can realise them and only their parents can set that example and teach it.
1
pamelot
That is not the issue here.
This is about properly investigating in advance of enrolling, the gamut of what your little one will be subjected to in a day of "care".
This is common sense, and part of being a responsible parent.
I can't imagine the hell, otherwise, for the little people who have no voice.
-2
Gwragged
Cleo, I don't send my children to school to play in water without learning anything. Different if they were measuring volumes of containers or testing what things sink or float in a water tray, but they were just splashing around. They go to school to learn, and learning doesn't have to mean pouring over books, it can be fun and hands on. We have plenty of non-academic fun when it is not school time. You always make me out to be a pushy monster mother. I am trying not to judge those who make different choices to me, try paying me the same courtesy.
1
lucabrasi
@Gwragged
Try harder.
-1
Gwragged
I might be judgemental, but at least my kids are safe and well educated.
1
Zenny11
Sorry, got to ask any better than the kids around you, etc.
0
cleo
Gwragged - I'm sorry you think I'm making you out to be a 'pushy monster mother'. That's not my intention at all, in fact I suspect you and I are actually pretty close in outlook, and we have made a lot of the same choices. (I was a sahm until the younger child started youchien, then I became a wahm, with a work schedule that could be moulded around the kids' schedules.)
'Just splashing around' is plenty educational at three years of age; the kids are learning what it feels like to be in water, they're learning to get their faces wet, to hold their breath under water - all pretty basic stuff, but necessary if they're going to learn to swim later. At the youchien my kids went to they also had things floating in the water, things that sank to the bottom, etc., as well as a variety of containers to pour water into and out of. Granted they could do that in a more formal, academic way sitting at a desk in the classroom with a bowl of water, but doing it in the pool is much more fun. And on a hot day, it feels good, too.
A lot of what the kids do in youchien looks like they're not learning, but in fact they are. They're learning a lot. It's all preparation for when they start at the big school.
0
miamum
Yes, in some wards of Tokyo they do, although I don`t know about the rest of the country. In our previous ward they started at 3, and had 3 years of Kindergarten. In our new ward they start at 4 and have 2 years. Ironically, I did feel that 3 was kind of young to be starting kindergarten, because of the low ratio of teachers to students. My daughters birthday is also late March, which would have made her barely 3 when she started. So I put both my older two in for 2 years only.
In the daycare that all 3 of them went to, the baby class had a ratio of 1:3, the class my son is in now 1-2 years is 1:5, and it goes up from there to 1:12 for the 5-6 year olds. But when they go outside for a walk, extra staff go, usually 1:3 to 1:6 depending on the age.
0
miamum
A "wahm"! Love that expression Cleo!
0
Gwragged
Im very happy with my kindergarten - somewhere between the lassiez faire approach you favor, and sitting in a classroom with books. I dont think children need to be formally educated at 3 years old - we just did play groups and activities at that age, and I wouldnt have been comfortable with them away from me at a kindy. By 4 to 5 years old, they are more than capable of half a day of proper schooling.
Cleo, I hope that my children one day become good citizens and successful people just like you managed to help yours become.
Ill save the splashing around feeling water and having fun with it for me and the kids at the pool, where I can watch them properly and make sure they are safe and sound at that age, anyway! My choice, I wouldnt push it onto anyone else.
Mia's mum, hope his allergies get better soon, my youngest is having trouble too at this time of year with allergies, I sympathise. My husband never gets up at night either for the same reason, and Im often exhausted. At least you are honest enough to admit to being tired!
Zenny, Ive no idea what you are trying to say, Im afraid.
0
Zenny11
Gwragged.
All I asked if you consider your kids safer and better educated then the ones around?
Just curious.
0
cleo
I wouldn't say it was lassiez faire so much as structured play.. it suited my kids, anyway, blurring the edges between fun and studying so that later on often they would complain that I was a spoilsport when I told them to put their books away and go to sleep. We also had fun at the local pool as a family, and had both kids swimming (sort of) by the time they were 5. We also had lots of books, videos and tapes (these were the days before DVDs and CDs) that we would pore over together, so that they were reading and writing hiragana and basic English by the time they started the big school. So I suppose they got what you call 'proper' schooling at home.....
0
Gwragged
Zenny, what other people do with their kids is their choice, nothing to do with me. I just do the best I can for my children; and I believe my husband and I are doing the very best we can to educate our children and keep them out of harms way until they are old enough to take care of themselves. We do the best we can with the resources we have available, as do we all, I suspect. I am very happy with their schooling, we would not have been as happy or comfortable sending them to hoikuuen or the local school. It was the right decision for us as a family.
My poor husband would have been even more upset than me sending them to day care, and neither of us think much of the Japanese school system. I couldnt care less what other people do with their kids as long as it doesnt impact my family.
Sorry, I just didnt understand how you first phrased the question.
Mia'smum, 3 is indeed very young to go to kindy! It sounds like you are very happy with your kindergarten, which is great.
-2
Gwragged
Fine Cleo, Im clearly a terrible mother. Honestly what a horrible group of people you are.
-2
Gwragged
Fine Cleo, Im clearly a terrible mother. Honestly what a horrible group of people you are.
0
miamum
I confirmed at my kindergarten today what they do with the pool, and they said they always have 4 "spotters" around the pool. I actually had a PTA meeting so I came out while school was in session to find the older class in the pool - about 25-30 kids and sure enough, the 4 spotters positioned around the pool edge. They may have stopped anyone drowning but they didn`t stop one little monkey from squirting me with a pump-action water gun as I came through the door!!!
I also just heard pool is continuing over Summer and - joy of joys - the Mums are allowed in with them!!! Woo-hoo!!! Can`t wait for that, its going to be great fun!
Thank you. I feel so sorry for the poor little mite, scratching away, tossing and turning, so obviously uncomfortable. The cream helps a little, but the meds make him sleepy during the day, and if I give them every day they seem to stop working so well so I try to limit them to when he gets really bad. It
s frustrating because I just dont know what else to do to help him. I hope he will grow out of it as he gets bigger. Compared to the other two he really seems to have copped the bad allergy genes.0
Zenny11
Gwragged.
No problem we all try to do the best for our kids based on our resources, etc as did our parents and so will our kids. Just against when people say I am doing better than you, etc (not directed at you personally).
We as parents are a unit of two and will decide what is best(for the whole family) and what can be afforded as to what we think will bring the most desirable results(from a parents viewpoint).
Peace.
2
cleo
What...? Where did that come from?
Exactly. So where did the 'terrible mother' and 'horrible group of people' thing come from??
1
miamum
Sorry - meant to add where I quoted GWRagged above: I wish I could take all 3 of mine into the pool together, but unfortunately even if my husband came to help on a weekend, the baby is not allowed in, even with one of those "water nappies" on. Don
t know if it is the same in every ku, or just this one, but its a shame, I know he would love it.Our local pool has a water slide and the height limit is 110cms. My son is currently 108!!! He is desperate to get on it, so I told him the only way to grow bigger was to eat lots of veggies, and now he demands plate-loads of carrots and broccoli every day!!! I feel so bad because every time we go he is still not quite big enough but he`s convinced a few plates of greens is all it is going to take! I really am going to hell..... : ( ! But at least my legacy will be a child with thriving bowels!
0
Zenny11
Miamum.
You got that wrong it needs to be long vegetables(asparagus, etc) and the need to be eaten standing up. :P
Hope you are having a good summer with your son, mine is driving me nuts with his clothing(takes after me). Currently 150 in height but needs shirts 150/160(shoulder width) and 140 waist pants, never mind that he is arlready using 25cm shoes at age 11.
He hates the school-pool put loves the governmental one(we got indoor and outdoor). Pretty good swimmer by now, common for kids back home to be able to swim prior to school, needed if you want to pass sports-ed (very strict) back home.
0
Zenny11
your son = your kids , my bad
-2
Gwragged
Because Cleo, you are continually having a go at me. Saying 'alarm bells' were ringing when I said I was supporting my oldest in her desire to be a vet, constantly making out like Im too educationally pushy with my children and not fun. It is offensive. I have happy children, who do well at school, and really, the amount of nastiness and bickering is horrible on this site.
I want my children to have options when they are older, and being criticized for their education mattering to me is pretty horrible.
0
Zenny11
Miamum.
Forgot to add will get worse once your son hits 10.
We had that problem in Atami with mothers and kids meeting up, but sons once past age 10 need to go to the mens section(Onsen) so a man needs to accompany them. I was the unlucky sap to do that.
But agree that Kindergarten needs to investigated and if possible shutdown.
0
miamum
Convincing mine to come in from the sun, wear sunscreen, a hat and drink water is the battle du jour right now. I am interrupting precious soccer time!
Wow! Your son is almost as tall as my husband!!! (Eek! Hope he`s not here under a pseudonym!) Mine is pretty average all over, a little bit skinny (sadly, from me!) but his Darwin Award candidacy seems to be progressing well despite my best endeavours to protect him from himself!
1
NYC_Samurai
Such a terrible incident. The only good that can come out of this, other than this particular facility being permanently shut down, would be for parents to realize how essential it is to monitor every phase possible of their child's external activities.
-9
Skeptical Hippo
Mothers bragging and chatting about their parenting "skills" whilst being online every single day not looking after their kids while they could (and should) spend that time with their kids...
1
Zenny11
Skep.
Yeah, sure let me run to the school and drag my son out of class. Happier now?
0
cleo
Gwragged, I am not 'having a go' at you. It's in your imagination.
I did not say the 'alarm bells' were ringing because you were supporting your daughter in her desire to be a vet; I was responding to your statement that she was 'working towards' her intended goal, on a thread about pre-school. You pointed out that she was not a pre-schooler, end of alarm bells (I thought...)
If anything, I would say I'm the 'educationally pushy' one, except that I let the kids play at play school and 'pushed' them at home. You do the opposite, nothing wrong with that, as you say, it's what suits your family.
I've also tried to show how I managed to steer my way through the education system here, but obviously that too was seen as criticism.....
A different point of view isn't 'nastiness and bickering'. It's just a different point of view. Everybody has one. I'm very sorry you've been given such a negative impression. It certainly wasn't intended on my part.
1
SpanishEyez37
No offense,but while everyone is arguing about parenting skills, tonight their are a set of parents who no longer have their son to hold or see grow up.
Be outraged at the school and staff who didn't do what they were supposed to be doing , not at each other here.
Let that sink in for a sec.......
0
SpanishEyez37
Correction there, not their
0
Skeptical Hippo
I'm talking about infants 3 to 5 years of age, not kids that go to school
0
miamum
Zenny - she`s talking about me. Just ignore her.
0
Skeptical Hippo
@Zenny11
As the article mentions..... kindergarten. Ages 3 to 5 (6). But my opinion also (I would say even more) reflect on those parents that put their kids in nurseries, so I'm actually also talking about 0 to 3 year olds (but that would be off-topic perhaps?).
Hope that clears that up.
Have a good one!
0
Zenny11
Discussion on TV now about that incident, full explanation as to what happened, etc. Place don't look very confidence inspiring.
0
Zenny11
And before you ask I basically qualify as a WAHD(now).
0
miamum
Are private kindergartens subject to the same rules as public ones? I know about the hoikuen system and that private ones can be licensed or unlicensed - is it the same for private kindergartens? And if they are unlicensed, does that basically mean they get to set their own standards and make their own rules? If so, that is a loophole that needs to be closed immediately for safety`s sake.
My son is in the public kindergarten here so its a 5 minute walk but there are two or three private kindie buses I see touring the neighbourhood picking kids up. I was put off because I heard these buses don`t have seatbelts, and the kindergartens are quite a distance away, although I did see one recently that had realy cool-looking individual child-seats on each seat which I am assuming then had seatbelts on them. I would be interested to know what kind of government checks/regulations (if any) they are subject to, and therefore whether this kindergarten was actually in breach of them. Are pre-schools and kindergartens considered and treated as the same thing? There are many many pre-schools around here, but they seem to be younger kids (2-3) and the classes are around 10 to at least 2-3 adults.
0
Zenny11
Basically the TV discussion also said that 30cm of water was too deep(and they should have had 2 pools), plus too little supervision. They had a pro(Doctor) explain how the drowning happened, etc.
Remember I talked about my sons hoikuen where they had 2 pools and the teachers get into their swimming wear and were inside the pool. Plus, kids weren't just allowed to go wild there was a bit of lecture and testing involved.
1
Zenny11
Miamum.
They have different guidelines and regulations, as has been pointed out by a few posters. I have seen Youchien, etc that don't even have a garden(proper), etc.
When my son was 0 we put him into a private creche one station away, a few years later that creche was upgraded and became ward certified into an official hoikuen.
So, yes, IMO & IME, many of the Youchien & Kindergarten while being more expensive(and hard to get into unless ...) are nothing more than glorified Juku for pre-schoolers.
0
miamum
Sounds about right to me. Was it a private kindergarten? I think there are some fabulous ones out there, but sadly the bad ones give the whole thing a bad name.
My son has pool today. I just took him down there, and the head teacher was on the gate. She came over to say a quick hello and said a few parents have voiced concerns since this happened. She knows I did too, and she said again they are very aware of the dangers, and explained the whole spotter system around the pool. She`s such a sweet lady. Also found out the deputy head has 5 kids! Wow! What was so lovely is that he had 4 boys and then a girl! When I said "How lovely, a girl after all those boys" he went all misty-eyed and said in his best English "She my princess!" Awww! Gotta love dads and their kids!
-1
Skeptical Hippo
Agreed and thx! That deputy head teacher sound a lot like me. Five kids... Youngest a girl.... No, a princess!
1
miamum
OK mods, fair enough, the allergy chat was completely off-topic, but please just allow me to say thanks to everyone who posted advice - it IS a worry as a parent.
I will be very interested to hear the end result of the investigation into this kindergarten, and what regulations they were in breach of, and if the regulations can even be applied to them if they are private. I
m shocked by the idea that unlicensed kindergartens can even operate - surely that shouldnt be allowed? And that these tend to be the ones that parents pay a lot of money to put their kids into.Meanwhile as Spanish rightly said, there is a family grieving the loss of their little boy right now. I got goosebumps just typing that. I sincerely hope there is a thorough investigation, regulations are put in place to prevent this kind of thing happening again and ENFORCED!
I really do think kindergartens (good ones!) provide a wonderful, rich, educational and fun environment for children. There are always risks inherent with stepping outside the door. Kids will get scraped knees, bops on the head, poked with chopsticks and what have you. But this - this is WAY beyond what could reasonably be called a calculated risk. 30 3 year olds and 2 adults is just not enough.
-1
Skeptical Hippo
Zenny11>
Totally agree. With glorified babysitters to look after the kids. Just my opinion, though. Not being rude, nor off-topic (such as some other posters continue to be).
-1
Skeptical Hippo
I was just on the phone with my city hall. They informed me that are are absolutely zero guidelines or rules regarding the size of the pool or the number of spotters necessary at hoikuens and youchiens. They leave this up to the people in charge of these facilities. These kind of guidelines/rules do exist at 25meter pools at elementary schools because that's compulsory education. Good luck everyone!
0
miamum
Thanks for digging up the details with the city hall Skeptical Hippo. It is pretty scary that there are actually no rules in place even at public hoikuens and kindergartens, and they leave it up to the "common sense" of people in charge. So in that case it is down to individual parents to confirm the procedures with theie respective kindergarten - but it probably never even occurs to most of them that they would need to. Wow. These poor parents of this little boy probably had no idea of the risk they were taking. I was thinking about the other parents of kids in that boys class today too, and how awful they must all be feeling as well. I wish we could have follow up info on this case - has the school closed down? What are other parents saying? Is criminal/civil action being taken? etc etc
0
Skeptical Hippo
No problem.
0
illsayit
Wow Hippo cant believe how many minuses you get. I think youre a winner! Id go and high5 the good click for ya, but Id have to read all the other dribble amongst your common sense posts again-And they really arent worth it, them posts. Im on the side of close the business down. 30kids is not easy to watch, but they ceratinly werent doing anything excpet sweating Id say, and so they can continue to sweat it out. But Id never let my kids into any of those sort of places anymore, just cause I reckon I want to be glorified, and the queen of youchien tarts!
0
Monkeyz
Accidents happen at school and at home. Sometimes people die. Sometimes they don't. You don't necessarily have to be grossly negligent for an accident to happen. One kid shrieks at one side of the pool and everyone's eyes go over there, meanwhile something bad happens on the other side. Just as an example.
And really, are we doing the, "Moms need to stay home all the time" business again? Just from experience I know there are people who want kids but don't find babies or toddlers terribly interesting. Being stuck at home with them 24/7 would have been mind-numbing. If a woman is forced to stay home anyway and winds up abusing or killing the kids (which happens more often than drownings at kindergartens), what excuse are you going to make for why your "being a SAHM is better always" theory?
-1
ihavegreatlegs
Steve the corporal thinks you can supervise your kids at the beach and public pools. At the beach it takes a lot of work, but at public pools it is impossible to follow your kids or friend's kids if there are more than one. Way to crowded. ... The story did not confirm if it was a drowning.
-1
Skeptical Hippo
illsayit>
Once more in English, please.
0
zurcronium
Most kids 1-4 years of age in Japan drown in their bathtubs, presumably under their mothers care. According to Steve's tortured logic then we should remove children from their home as their mothers clearly are not protecting their kids. They are simply glorified housekeepers. Kids are less likely to drown at kindergarden.
Amazing how ridiculous the self-righteous can become.
0
ihavegreatlegs
@Zurcronium: Finally someone else is seeing through Corporal Steve`s thoughts. He would prefer me barefooted and baking cookies rather than running my own businesses. Perhaps he might work for me one day. Plastic bags are in the utility closet Corporal.
There is only so much a mother can protect. Mothers by instinct try their best. RIP little guy, and I hope the autopsy does prove that it was not a drowning but something else. I feel for the school and community and those two teachers that were at the pool.
0
Dennis Bauer
what were those supervisors doing, chatting using their keitai? rip little kid
-2
ihavegreatlegs
No Dennis, they were in the pool with the kids
-3
steve@CPFC
zurcronium; there is no need for personal attacks on my mnindset and views which is far from being in 1955, in far it called be called so progressive that it confuses many, like yourself possibly.
I have provided independent links about these matters and in a minority it is reported that thereis no effect on the children being away from mum, in none does it say they fare better, but in many they fare worse educationally, healthwise and emotionally.
Can we discuss thes ematters in future by looking at each others posts than pigeon holing posters into outdated stereotype figures?
0
Skeptical Hippo
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E8Yhy14jGQ&feature=fvst
Japanese kindergarten swimming pool.
One minute into the clip, I count around 50 little children inside the water and only 2 teachers.
0
miamum
At one point in the clip I can see a lot of adults watching, BUT - it was abject chaos(!) and yes, when they are all in a circle only 2 adults in the pool with them, and roughly 50 kids.
These kids look below elementary school age to me, and as you said, there are absolutely zero regulations for adults:children etc etc at kindergartens/nurseries for pool-time. This is something that needs to be addressed urgently.
I actually feel sorry for the supervisors of the kindergarten in question on this thread (assuming they were actually doing their jobs and not checking their keitais!) - they were put in a position where they were faced with the impossible task of keeping track of 15 excited 3 year olds each. It is the management of the kindergarten who should be held liable for this tragedy.
Zurcronium makes a good point though - kids can drown easily in their own bathtubs at home if their carers (Mother, Father, Grandmother etc) are not paying attention.
i am satisfied with the kindergarten that I am in that they are taking the right safety precautions (saw them again today with what looked like roughly 1 adult to about 8 5-6 year olds having a brilliant time!), but I bet most Mothers would never even consider there might be a risk and just trust blindly that the kindergarten knows what they are doing. In some cases they do but sadly, in some they don`t.
Actually - I also went to check out a hoikuen today as during the sumemr hols I will be working here and there and need some help for my 5 year old from time to time. I was horrified! There were about 15 babies, only 2 adults, all the babies were eating their lunch without help (some looked like they needed it) and one was fast asleep on the hard wood floor, lunch untouched, left alone and not moved. The teachers did not look happy but put their best faces on when they saw me waiting in the genkan. I went to look just because his little friends Mum said she would be using it, but I struck that place off my list instantly. He will be going to the same place as my youngest. It is more expensive, but my God at least I know he will be cared for.
I can absolutely see now, all hoikuen and all kindergarten are not alike, and you really need to do the legwork to find a good one. The one I am using is now in the process of setting up webcams so parents can see their kids while they are at work. I think that is excellent, and makes for even more transparency.
0
Skeptical Hippo
The tv crew isn't there everyday looking at those kids.
Good for you and your child!
An ordinary scene at an ordinary nursery.
Although the staff won't be too pleased about it, this is an excellent way to prevent accidents as the staff has to at least appear to be professional and caring. Before you know it they might actually become just that.
0
miamum
They already are. If they weren
t, I woudl never have sent my kids there. Pleae dont start this again Hippo.0
Skeptical Hippo
Fair enough. One question though.... Why are they installing the webcams?
0
miamum
Apparently they did some research and found this kind of thing was really popular with parents (for obvious reasons) and becoming more common so they canvassed our opinions (I didn
t know about it so it must have been while I was back in the UK) and have decided to go ahead with it. I think it is great, but now Im going to get even less work done than normal...!!! I`m not sure how it is going to work, but it is going to be some kind of website for members only, and we have to log in to view them.When my daughter first entered, where we used to live was directly opposite the building and on the same floor so I could see into the classroom from our balcony. I was supposed to be working from home at the time, but I spent ages out on the balcony with binoculars just watching her! Then they put a building up between us and I couldn`t see anymore.
I like to go sometimes and hide behind the wall and watch my son in class. Most of the time I see the girls kissing him!!!
As I said before, I am very happy with the places we have chosen but I think daycares and kindergartens in general need far more checking and regulating than they currently seem to have. I am starting to wonder about the pool at my daughters elementary school too, and how safe that is. She told me in pool yesterday 3 classes went in together - that`s about 110 kids! She said there were 2 teachers in the pool, and 2 on the outside. 1:27 roughly for 7-8 year olds. Does that sound OK??!
0
Skeptical Hippo
MIamum>
I'm glad this article and the comments posted here have made you (re)consider the safety of those fascilities so many of us seem to be taking for granted as I've (mis?)understood from your initial comments here. If the death of this poor boy can prevent any more of these horrible accidents then I (we) can say that something positive has at least come of it as well.
Regarding the elementary school pool regulations you asked about, I suggest you call your city hall and ask them. My city hall told me yesterday that 3 teachers need to be present and allert at all time. It could be a ku by ku thing, though...
0
miamum
I would like to think no good parent ever takes safety for granted and is always on the lookout for (reasonable) ways to confirm/improve their childrens safety. But sadly, it sometimes takes a tragedy such as this to make one think about a specific safety issue.
I remember years ago on finding out my kids would be taking walks to local parks with their nursery classes getting a map of the routes from the teachers and tracing every one to make sure there were barriers between the sidewalk and the road after reading in the news about a nursery class out walking who was ploughed into by a car whose driver was changing a CD(???!) at the time! Here the streets are very wide and have barriers right the way along so that doesn`t worry me so much anymore, but there have been 2 cases of cyclists knocking down children on the street near the hoikuen. Both were hit and runs, but one was caught!
Amen to that, and i hope that may help to give them some peace, but I doubt anything would ever be able to console me if I God forbid were ever where they are now. I don`t even want to try and imagine it.
0
illsayit
So where are the teachers VOICES? You know a bunch of kids a pool, and at youchien-like your gonna play Mum and let the kids have free time, or are you gonna be responsible and organize something for the kids to play at while in the water, and while you be responsible for the kids.
0
Samantha Ueno
I was horrified! There were about 15 babies, only 2 adults, all the babies were eating their lunch without help (some looked like they needed it) and one was fast asleep on the hard wood floor, lunch untouched, left alone and not moved
An ordinary scene at an ordinary nursery.
Again, where I work we have 8 2-3 year olds in the class for lunch. 2 year olds need more help and so they sit near me where they are helped at taught. 3 year olds can usually eat without help but are still monitored by me. If there are 5 kids or less, one teacher. 6 kids or more, 2 teachers.
-3
ihavegreatlegs
I looked at that video and there were lots of supervisors. The one scene where they showed just kids was done on purpose. All the supervisors were asked to stand behind the cameras, so they could just show kids having fun.
There is still no word out on the little boy that died...no one knows yet if he drowned.
1
miamum
These were absolutely babies - definitely under 2, and they looked around the same age or younger than my 18 month old - although he`s quite big(!).
Thinking about it, there may have been more than 15 - I didn
t count specifically but there were about 8 in each row and 4 rows so what - 32???! i dont know exactly - just seemed like a hell of a lot for 2 teachers, one of whom was engaged with carrying another one around that couldnt yet walk. Neither of the staff looked happy. There may have been more there, but I didnt see them, and it was a tiny place so I probably would have done.When my little one has lunch at nursery, there are 4 to a table (these are the bigger ones, obviously the smaller babies get milk) and 1 teacher per table, making sure they eat properly. I always wondered how they were able to report for me almost to the number of rice grains he ate until I saw them having lunch with these little checklists they have to report back who has eaten what at each table. My little bruiser always asks for seconds!
I used to do pre-school too, years ago. There were 10 in my class (2-3 years) and 3 teachers including me. I was taught to use chopsticks by a 2 year old!!! Actually - explains a lot ;P !
2
miamum
Actually that reminds me of another reason I love daycare - I am the worlds worst cook (its official - had a presentation and everything!) and there they get beautiful food made on the premises and planned by a paediatric dietician - far better than they would get from me I am ashamed to say. They put a sample meal every day in the display cabinet in the entrance, and the teachers often find me standing there with my nose pressed against the glass, dribbling!
0
Skeptical Hippo
ihavegreatlegs>
Lots of people from the tv crew is what you saw. They usually aren't there, you know.
What's your point? A child died because there were only two staff members there when it happened and it happened at a kindergarten. Are you disputing those facts? Are you saying all the other kindergartens and nurseries in Japan have more than two staff members watching out for about 30 to 50 kids at the time when they do fun activities like that?
0
Zenny11
Hippo.
Yes, that is what people are saying and backed it up with personal experiences.
Still surprised how adamant that you are right, yet dispute peoples experiences whose kids were in those places.
On what personal experiences with those places is your Opinion based?
0
miamum
You may be right Hippo, but can you actually tell that from the video? They weren
t wearing TV-crew uniforms or anything from what I could see, were mostly women from what I could see and seemed to be dressed like all the other Mums I encounter every day. As I say, you may be right - but how can you actually tell? How do we also know that they usually arent there. Aagin - not necessarily disagreeing with you - just wondering if you have extra info on the situation beyond what you can see on the video.0
Skeptical Hippo
No, that's not what people are saying here. What they're saying is that they are gonna check with their kindy or nursery because of what happened to that little boy. They're saying that the rules (none) to protect the kids during those activities are not in place (I personally checked with my ward office and that's what they told me) and that this should change asap.
Again, there are no rules/laws that say anything about the size of the pool, the depth of the water in the pool, how many kids are allowed in the pool and how many staff members must be present at the time. THAT'S why this horribe accident happened. Because some kindergarten operator didn't have any guideline to go by and just decided on his/her own that two staff members are enough to oversee 30 kids in a possible dangerous setting.
THAT is happeneing still all over Japan.
What you have read here (chose to read) is one or two people here saying their kindy/nursery has more than two spotters. Although I am glad and relieved to read such comments, I don not believe they represent the rest of Japan. Do you?
0
Skeptical Hippo
miamum>
Of course there are gonna be other people there as well. They were being filmed and put on the news. Lots of people would want to "be in the picture". You can even observe the kouchou sensei (wearing a suit) in there somewhere too. Do you honetsly believe he's supervising those kids everythime they are in the pool? I don't think so. There are about 50 kids in the pool with only 2 staff members to look after them. Yes, some moms were there chatting away with each other too. They're not really looking out/after those 50 kids though.
0
Skeptical Hippo
What's the ratio here?
http://www.josei.ed.jp/document.php?cmd=img¶m=2699&pid=13
http://www.josei.ed.jp/document.php?cmd=img¶m=2695&pid=13
http://www.josei.ed.jp/document.php?cmd=img¶m=2694&pid=13
0
miamum
Ah, OK, I didn
t think of it like that. I didnt spot that that person was the kocho sensei. Our kocho sensei is sometimes there at the pool with the kids, but the fuku-kocho sensei always is. He always seems to be having a better time than the kids even!!!0
miamum
I am pleased and relieved that my kindergarten takes pool safety so seriously, but I am not convinced that this isn
t the case all over Japan. I dont know, as I only have experience of 3 kindergartens and 1 daycare, but in terms of safey, all of those seem to have been fine to me.Surely, if many many kindergartens were as laksidaisical as this one seems to have been, many more of theese tradegies would happen? This is the first time I have heard of a drowning in a kindergarten pool, if I am honest. Correct me if I am wrong, because when I am going through busy periods I don`t keep up with the news as much as I am at the moment.
Is it possible that this disregard for safety is not the "norm" in Japan, and that most kindergartens are more careful, but sadly not all of them? This one absolutely seems negligent, but when i brought it up with my kindergarten staff they seemed shocked and surprised, and they must have far more experience between them of kindergartens than I do, but they seemed to suggest (without saying directly as is the Japanese way) that this was wrong too.
0
Skeptical Hippo
These facilities (the ones that don't take the necessary precautions THEY see fit) are potentially dangerous places where accidents are just waiting to happen (as evidenced by the terrible accident in the above article). I therefore strongly urge every parent to go to their kindy/nursery to check up on their "regulations" regarding pool activities, little excursions (where kids are transported in minivans and busses without proper seatbelts in place) and walks around the neighborhood. Do not do this by appointment, but go there unannounced so that they don't have time to prepare and you can catch them in the act.
0
miamum
First of all what a bunch of cutie-pies! I love the little J kids in their swimmers and hats, they all look so cute and excited!
If these pictures were all taken on the same day, I counted 5 adults and about 50-60 children, so roughly about 1:10-12 by the looks of it. The kids look around 4-5. Is that a reasonable ratio? I don`t honestly know what "reasonable" even is, not being a swimming teacher or kindergarten teacher myself. What should a safe ratio be for kids that age?
0
Skeptical Hippo
You hit the nail on the head there, miamum!
Nobody seems to know. It's all up to the discretion of the staff members and if one calls in sick on a pool day I guess that's one less spotter and one more child in harms way. Shameful!
0
miamum
This is a good point. I get really anal about travelling without seatbelts or proper child seats. I have upset my in-laws before because they wanted to take the kids out for a day in their car, sitting in the back seat unsupervised with no seatbelts and no child-locks! Are you kidding me??! An old kindergarten we were in took them out once in a public-style bus with no seatbelts or anything. It made me REALLY nervous. Sometimes its not possible to use child seats or even seatbelts (eg in a taxi when they don
t even work!) but wherever possible I try to insist on it or avoid situations where the problem arises. Recently, seatbelts on mini-buses seem to have become more common, but just because they have them doesnt mean the staff go through and check every child is using them.I guess I just take what is reasonable based on what I could do. I would say if I was spotting I could probably keep track of a section of pool with 8 or maybe even 10 kids in it aged 5 and in waist deep water, but 15 all going crazy - probably not.
0
Skeptical Hippo
Interesting read:
More here: http://ideas.repec.org/p/ngi/dpaper/09-20.html
0
illsayit
Me-a-mum, oops maybe I spelt that wrong....You just seem to get a kick out of making out that the typical mother just rambles on about anything and everything that has to do with nothing about anything that is something being discussed-Get it! Children dont drive, children cant swim. Thats why they have the pool lessons one would presume-in fact thinking like that, Id suggest that driving lessons should be introduced to 5th graders-well so long as theyre tall enough to see over the dashboard. Youchien children should definitely not get behind the (steering)wheel of the bus, cause it might cause an accident. And I would suggest that it would be safer in these sort of circumstances for the other passengers not to have their seatbelt on, as they would not be able to make a clean get-away.
But on topic-pool and population huh? So is the suburbs or the city more populated?
1
pamelot
Fiction.
There would be a lot less people walking around now, if that were so.
A telltale statement:
"Left" the pool...
This sounds like stampeding, to me. Everybody rushing out of the pool, and the smaller one got underfoot, and somehow this went unseen, till the little one was floating.
Unless an autopsy proves otherwise, this is criminal negligence.
0
miamum
illsayit I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. Sorry.
Back to top