Deductions from pensions begin on seniors' medical insurance

Tuesday 15th April, 02:26 PM JST

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Patrick Smash at 06:02 PM JST - 15th April

Cleo

You were here, though not in Tokyo perhaps. Many of these people used to take the envelope of cash and check it would stand upright by itself. I saw them. The over 60s in 1998 had 592 trillion yen in personal assets, or 47% of the nation's total. This was the richest period in Japan's history.

Nutsagain. Bad management is an understatement; successive LDP governments (that the elderly continually voted for) squandered the pensions, lost the data, and now they don't have the money. This part is not news. People have to take care of themselves, and cannot rely on state pensions. Many of these people knew this, but decided to make no other provisions, and squandered huge amounts of money that they now possibly need. The state pension should be immediately means-tested and more money should be paid to those who really need it most.

And what about younger Japanese people today? Why they should they all pay for pensions they won't receive? They're expected to pay for an elderly person, and also make private provisions. On how much money? Average family incomes here are now below 5.5 million yen per year and falling.

And every time anyone visits a doctor for any reason they have to waste half a day becaue the place is clogged full of old people with colds. That's how they continue to fritter away state funds.

Since the pension they paid was lost, and the money no longer really exists, drastic measures are now necessary. These will include serious tax hikes, worsening as the population ages, and a delay of pensionable age. The days of retiring at 60 on a state pension are over. Is it fair? No. But that's how it is. People healthy enough to work need to go back into the workforce. Japan's 20-40 year-olds did not squander the resources, and shouldn't be the ones forking out for unnecessary hospital visits.

That's how I see it now, and that's how I'll still see it if I ever live long enough to collect that blasted pension I am collared for but will probably never see much of. My advice to everyone is to view the payments towards the pension as a tax, expect nothing, and just be happy if you ever receive anything. Look at it as a bonus, not something to retire on.
cleo at 06:15 PM JST - 15th April

Patrick -

Many of these people....

Some yes, many I don't think so. The these people argument is what gets bombs dropped on little children, and planes flown into buildings - all to get these people.

These people don't exist. They're a figleaf of the imagination.
Nessie at 06:31 PM JST - 15th April

Cleo,

Young oldies paid premiums when people tended to die earlier and healthcare costs were much lower as a percentage of income. This means that they're getting much more out of the system than they paid in, which is unfair to the younger generation. Essentially, todays oldies paid less then and pay less now because, as I understand it, their deductible is lower than mine. To keep the system solvent, these revisions are fair.

What irks me is how it takes multiple hospital visits to get anything done here, since the hospitals get paid per visit and per procedure. Never mind that it's a tremendous waste of time for me to have to go four times to have a wisdom tooth pulled and twice to have my upper jaw cleaned one day and my lower jaw cleaned another day. It just ain't that dirty. Overseas, doctors keep you waiting. Here they keep you coming. And oldies don't seem to mind since it's a big part of their social life.
cleo at 08:04 PM JST - 15th April

Nessie - But they've also paid longer, so all told they've paid more than you. Complaining that it's not fair (and they should just do the decent thing and start pushing up the daisies?) is the first step to baba-suteyama....

Agree with you totally on the second point. The problem is that hospitals and dentists are allowed to charge for each visit; the more often they see you, the richer the doc gets. A hospital shouldn't be a business.

Yes, I am in favour of socialised medicine.
Patrick Smash at 09:57 PM JST - 15th April

cleo

That's one of your worst ever posts. If people over 60 own 47% of the nation's assets, how can it not be many of them with assets and only just a few? The people who made a fortune, paid little, paid nothing for their wives as that was not calculated at the time, these are already the gainers. Explain to me why the young of Japan, in a declining economy, with declining salaries, should be the ones paying at least two pensions each, when people over 60 own half the country's assets.

Other people live here to, and walk round with their eyes open, you're not the only one who has been here forever. I know some of the elderly people around me, and can see the level of problem they face. Big houses, apartments they rent out, money they can't spend, plus hubby's pension. Every night the hostess joints and nomiya around me are full of retired chaps spending fortunes on cheap thrills, that the younger generation cannot afford, partly because we're all busy paying their drinking costs in the form of a pension we won't receive. Yes they've paid in, but we're all paying in too, and we won't get anything. You think that's fair, and to say it isn't is the equivalent of nuking Hiroshima. Nice one.

Cutting back spending on the elderly would get children born free of charge, and young families the help they need to raise the next generation instead of an aging timebomb ticking out of control, which is waht we have now.

If half the money on the health system wasn't being spent on pointless visits to doctors by the elderly, it might just accomplish something too, and the people who are actually payng for the blasted thing now might not have to spend half a day waiting to see a doctor when they genuinely need one. Those that truly need the pension should get it, but those that earned plenty and frittered it all away have no right to be an excessive burden on the rest of us. Go back to work. Those that are wealthy should forego the pension, and the only way to do that is means-testing. It's not our fault the government decided to waste the pension money after all.
cleo at 11:04 PM JST - 15th April

Patrick - The topic isn't the pension, it's health insurance. (Just as well, 'cos if you get me started on the pension we'll be here all night....:-)) If people of any age have a reasonable income, reasonable assets, then fine, let them pay their way. I'm not averse to a bit of appropriate means testing (though you can be sure that if means testing were introduced, those with the financial savvy to have enough assets to be means-tested on would find a way of being destitute on paper, while those who had to scrimp and save to put away a little nest-egg would be the ones to end up paying out). But you can't just say, well some people made a mint when they were working so now we can assume all elderly people are well-off (or it's their own fault if they aren't well off) and it's OK to take a sizable chunk out of their lower-than-welfare-pension.

You, Nessie and I are all on the same page when it comes to hospitals; if the hospitals weren't making an easy mint out of the oldies cluttering up the waiting rooms with their aches and pains and sniffles, they wouldn't keep encouraging them to come back for non-existent ailments and you and I (and Nessie) could get better, quicker service when we needed it. But simply closing the doors on the sick elderly because they can't afford to pay is not the way to do it.
DXXJP at 05:41 AM JST - 16th April

A hospital shouldn't be a business.

Yes your correct but its mostly doctors with long swanky vacations and a Benz or BMW for the week and a lambo or a Ferrari for the weekends. And dentists are the worst.

My wife's grandfather survived WW2 he fought all over for them. Returned home to the family farm. Worked it until they built the shinkensen tracks threw the middle of it. He split the money between the family yet he was the only one to work it. Now he sits in the original 1940 house trying not to freeze to death from the cold. Pension my ass he paid more than any LDP fat cat but has about 1200 a month to live on.

My wife's father was the deputy mayor in our town the guy cant fathom how hard private business is because his paycheck and a fat one at that came from tax money. He's living good. There are two systems here in japan.
Scrote at 08:47 AM JST - 16th April

Aren't these "deductions" simply the insurance premiums that the elderly should have been paying anyway? Y2000 every two months isn't much. I was paying Y10000 (ten thousand) per week when I foolishly enrolled in the national health care system years ago. Maybe the elderly haven't noticed, but my taxes are going up each year to fund their pensions.

It's also true that the elderly vote predominantly for the LDP. I've little sympathy for LDP voters who complain about this measure. Here's an idea: bring in lots of foreign workers to help subsidise medical fees. If the elderly don't like that idea (and they don't) then it's time to shut up and stump up the cash for your treatment.
GW at 09:51 AM JST - 16th April

well i think its perfectly clear that J-folks are simply reaping what they themselves(except the young adults) have sewn. Between the LDP & the beaurocrats they have & still are pilfering the whole of Jpn for their own needs, but guess who keeps them in office. It never chgs, I remember in the 80s the beaurocrats were being heaped with praise when really Jpn was doing well despite not because of the beaurocrats!
Patrick Smash at 10:08 AM JST - 16th April

The way this has been handled is appalling, but as others say, the Japanese are reaping what they sow. In the local psyche your company is a benevolent friend, and will look after you for life. In actuality it is an ogre that will demand you work unpaid, and will act illegally against you your entire working life. The politicians that serve you are the remnants of dynasties dating back to before WWII. The education system is elitist in that the richest people from the best families get the best jobs in the best companies. It's an amazing racket, and this is the latest extension of it.

This system led to a system of national insurance that does not cover people, and a pension system that generations of elected LDP politicians squandered. The blind faith in the benevolent company that would always provide led people to think that they would always be taken care of, so vast numbers of them frittered away what they had, and now cannot live off the state pension. That pension is now being further eroded by its being linked to national health costs, and the government didn't even bother to tell anyone they were doing this.

In fact it's the present 50-70 year-old group that needs a reality check, as those already aged 75 who have no money cannot do anything. But this needs immediate means-testing, and those that have plenty of other resources should lose their national pensions as the pot is not big enough for all, the current system is unfair on the under 50s, and there is no good way to sort out the mess. Pensionable age should be moved to 70 for anyone under 55, and to 65-68 for anyone 55-65. Desperate times, desperate measures, and as the population grays it will get worse and worse and worse until there is nothing left for those paying now.
cleo at 10:16 AM JST - 16th April

Aren't these "deductions" simply the insurance premiums that the elderly should have been paying anyway?

Not in all cases. People on low or no incomes who paid little before or were included in the family insurance are facing increased charges, in some cases quite large increases.　Married couples are also being assessed separately, which in most cases means higher premiums. There's also a huge regional discrepancy - a difference of 30,000+yen pa between the cheapest and most expensive for those receiving the average pension, although the service is the same. The cheapest is Tokyo, at a little over 53,000 pa which works out at nearly 4500 yen a month. The figure of 'Y2000 every two months' is for those receiving only the national pension, which I think is about 50,000 a month - less than the welfare payments made to the destitute.
Scrote at 08:39 AM JST - 17th April

I'm not sure that means testing will work. Just look at the number of politicians with their Y20,000,000+ salaries, plus expenses who claim to have almost no assets.
tkoind2 at 09:56 AM JST - 17th April

Japan and the US have no sustainable plans for dealing with their aging populations. And this is just another malformed bandaid in hopes of putting off dealing with the reality of the sitution by the current government. I'm sure they are hoping to hand it off to the next generation if possible.

Funny how Canada, France and dozens of other nations have aging populations and viable plans and long term solutions in play or in the works. I guess Japan and the US will be content to allow the aging populations to strangle the healthcare and pension systems and create a whole new definition of poverty.
nigelboy at 10:05 AM JST - 17th April

Funny how Canada, France and dozens of other nations have aging populations and viable plans and long term solutions in play or in the works.

I don't know about Canada but France has high tax burden rate (simply, income/tax ratio) at 62.2% while U.S. and Japan are relatively low 32% and 40% respectively.
lilalia at 02:29 AM JST - 19th April

Yes, it is around 30 % in Japan (it differs, depending on income), but by paying it, you don't have all the taxes payed. If you will count all the taxes that somebody is paying in Japan, maybe you will get some percents not far from France level...