Former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe visits Yasukuni Shrine on Friday.
PHOTO BY TARO FUJIMOTO

Japan ministers, but not premier, visit war shrine

Friday 15th August, 05:00 PM JST

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yukotojo at 03:03 PM JST - 17th August

Tokyo VP,

Japan did not accept the verdict handed down by the IMTF, that's why many war criminals were set free ! Shumei Okawa was set free before the Tokyo Trials ever began, and he was considered the genius behind Nanking ! Accepted...? Recognized that it was foreign and that's it ! The Diet only played up to McArthur.
nutsagain at 07:16 PM JST - 17th August

yukotojo: Can you select and play another track on your record? You've labored aka cut and pasted the same point three times now. Good for a laugh but not much else? Yawn...
seansezso at 08:07 PM JST - 17th August

Imagawa wrote:

The real question many of you need to ask yourself is why you feel need to be judgemental, what is your motivation in condemning Japan? If you dislike the Japanese then be honest & say that & walk away, but don’t give yourself a right to judge them least you be judged yourself & that you very obvious don’t like. The real question here is not to do with the Japanese or war crimes, it is the motivation of the posters.

I despise war criminals no matter their origins. The topic just happens to be these Japanese ones. I also despise war in general. I want no credence given to war criminals nor war, nor do I want them glorified. However, I accept the honouring of war dead because they remind us all of what happens when war breaks out, and that is that a lot of people get dead.

Those hung for war crimes however deserve no respect nor honouring. They should be remembered for the sake of detering war and those who would start them.

In short, I am critical because I don't want Japan to revert to past militaristic ways, I want them to retain their pacifist image for their own sake and as an example to the world.

And let us make one thing absolutely clear. To criticize Yasukuni is not to criticize Japan. Japan is not agreement about Yasukuni, no matter what the government and its ministers do or say.

an argument that is in fact none of your business.

I have to take issue with this too. Japan's image is on the line, and us foreigners are excellent advisors on how this issue affects Japan's image.

And if we are going to talk about what is and what is not someone's business, need I remind you that it was those men who rampaged across Asia and with the Allies that crossed that line first? The Allies had to come over here and stomp Japan to get them to stop and get to those responsible. It most certainly is our business if they start worshipping them again, at least as far as discussions of the topic go.

And last, peace and maintaining peace is the obligation of every human being on the planet. If start saying that matters which trigger and foster wars are internal business only, we will pay with a lot more wars. Every human on the planet deserves a say about this.
MASSWIPE at 08:25 PM JST - 17th August

To those of you who remain bitter about events that transpired during Japan's period as an emasculated subject of the US military from 1945-52: be very thankful that it was "victor's justice" and NOT "victim's justice" that was imposed on Japan. You should shudder at the thought of what verdicts Chinese and Korean judges would have passed on Japan had their respective nations not been too enfeebled to do so (think of Mussolini being hanged by a mob in April 1945 and imagine the same thing being done to Emperor Hirohito a few months later). Really, Japan was saved from a much crueler fate by America's decision to come in and essentially take over the whole show.

Yasukuni Shrine is an interesting place and should be visited on August 15 if possible.
nutsagain at 08:40 AM JST - 18th August

What a truly sad state of affairs... Japan has to be walloped with a big stick every time it gets out of line with its inner craving for cultural uniqueness, therefore exemption from common sense. The yukotojos of this world will always be around craving the old days. One wonders if this person is just a foreigner baiting the forum, really the daughter of Japan's most spectacular lunatic, for he was totaly bonkers, or just a lonely rightist with not much else to do? Either way, she's wide of the mark and out of step with both reality and the world. Dream on babe....
imagawa at 12:07 AM JST - 19th August

I do not in any way support what the Japanese imperial army was or what it did, I make no excuses for them because none can be made.

But when I look at the histories of other countries, those in Europe & the US, these countries were to a greater or lesser degree & in some ways still are colonial powers & for one period in history Japan joined their club, even though that club didn’t want her to. Think about it, only once did Japan try to be a colonial power & for that she has never been forgiven.

I know all the usual reasons given for this, but I really do still feel that there is an element missing, one which is not so easy to find even in ourselves. Germany has been forgiven for what it did in Europe & Russia, Holland for its “ownership” in South East Asia & parts of Africa, France in Asia & North Africa & the British for almost everywhere. The Americans are still in occupation of most of the places they took, aped & hated in equal measure. But Japan fought, won & then lost 63 years ago & is still condemned. In Vietnam the Americans, Australians & British are accepted again, but much less so the Japanese.

I am not sure, & I will not say that I could be even 70% sure, but I really do feel that if the Japanese hadn’t been Orientals they would have been forgiven a long time ago. Somewhere deep down they are not treated in the same way, not even by other Orientals.

Aside from Tokugawa Ieyasu & his mad little attacks against Korea Japan has only once left its shores to fight a war, granted it was a big war. And for the last 63 years they have been a pacifist country & yet they still face constant condemnation.

And the rest of the colonial powers? They may operate differently these days, but they do still operate, & maybe they have not been totally forgiven, but they certainly don’t face the condemnation that Japan does.

But then they are white & that just might make a difference. I think it does.

What about the war dead from all these colonial wars, the white ones that is. Do any of us give even a second thought to the commemorative monuments we have all seen in the various home countries?

I don’t know, but at least I am asking myself if there is something here we don’t really ever look at in ourselves.
usaexpat at 12:25 AM JST - 19th August

imagawa, thankyou for your post, I think you are not far off. I'm not so sure you can expect forgiveness from your victims as I don't think most colonial powers have been forgiven that way. If your point was more forgiveness or forgetfulness by the rest of the developed world I think you are right. There is some sort of racial component to it especially from the old colonizers. I would bet that the majority of people on here bleating about Japan not having atoned for its sins are Europeans. Americans as a general rule don't feel this way maybe because we dealt the final blows to Japan at the end of the war and consider the matter finished. Certainly at the time of the war Western powers didn't like the idea of Japan getting too powerful and threatening their own colonies. The world is still paying a price for European colonialism and no one ever seems to mention it. One only need look to failed states like Burma to see the lasting effects. I for one as said before believe that the Japanese can honor their war dead however they like and that includes those branded as war criminals. The Tokyo trials were as others have said victors justice so I don't put much stock in it. The worst of it is that we let some of the true criminals and monsters like Ishii go in exchange for their research and knowledge. War as a whole is a crime against humanity, remember the sins of the past and try not to repeat them.
imagawa at 07:11 AM JST - 19th August

USAExpat.

Thank you, I have to admit I was expecting to get Burned. I agree with you about the legacy that seems to hang over many of the ex-colonies. But without being able to put my finger on it there seems a greater shadow that hangs over a how Asia sees it’s own history, maybe the political inter play that went on between China & the west while China was still closed provides the fuel, there seems almost to be a waiting game being played. Nobody is giving because they are expecting something to happen “tomorrow” & this is not a road that will lead to a future peace. These little nagging details about who does & who doesn’t visit a shine seem almost the surface tensions of something greater, though stating it that way sounds almost paranoid, though that is not really the way I mean it & that is the problem. It isn’t something so tangible that a black & white argument can be built on it.

The race idea I was talking about in my earlier post stems from the league of nations conference when Japan put forward the idea of all men being equal & the conference rejected it. They were not white & as such they were seen to be asking for something that they were not in the white mans eyes entitled to. That I think pushed Japan into a limbo between not being accepted by the west while not seeing themselves as being a part of Asia. From that seed grows much more than we today might be willing to accept. Rightly or wrongly Japan believed herself to be part of the western block & yet that block rejected her, the mentality born out of that rejection is what I believe gave strength to a militarist doctrine that had no external controls.

I also feel that that basic racism still lingers in the west, I read it everyday on this site, it may be hidden behind care for a peaceful world & a peaceful Japan in that world, but there is a relentless attack against all things Japanese here that has roots that few here ever hold a mirror to. And it is that lack of substance that I so often try to draw out when I post. I want to know why a person in their 20s or 30s can feel such anger against Japan for a war that ended 63 years ago, they will of course find “reasons”, but I don’t want reasons, I would ask them to find a truth within themselves.

And will we ever see such on this site? I doubt it
nutsagain at 09:10 AM JST - 19th August

usaexpat/imagawa: Both excellent, intelligent and balanced posts. And I agree with you save one point. It seems to me at least that the core issue of as you say, the Europeans resentment of Japan's position rests not with victor or conquered but moreover Japan's total failure to look at the barbarism of its troops. This has to be looked at for any development as a nation. Barbarity that would make even some Roman conquests look mild and the Romans knew all about barbarism.
lipscombe at 09:16 AM JST - 19th August

only once did Japan try to be a colonial power & for that she has never been forgiven.

saying sorry works wonders (apparently analogies are over the head of some...so I'll keep it simple for the dolly dimple mod)
MASSWIPE at 09:31 AM JST - 19th August

imagawa, your comments contain several inaccuracies:

"Aside from Tokugawa Ieyasu & his mad little attacks against Korea Japan has only once left its shores to fight a war, granted it was a big war."

It was Toyotomi Hideoyoshi who initiated those attacks against Korea, and they weren't little. Japan laid waste to its neighbor, and it took Korea decades to recover. And Japan left its shores multiple times (against China in 1894, against Russia in 1904, against Germany in 1914, against the USSR in 1918, etc.) to fight wars in modern times before the really big one started in 1931.

"The race idea I was talking about in my earlier post stems from the league of nations conference when Japan put forward the idea of all men being equal & the conference rejected it."

Japan did not believe in the idea of all men being equal back in 1919 during the Versailles (not League) Conference; at that very moment Japanese soldiers were bayoneting pro-independence demonstrators in Korea. What Japan wanted was for the Western powers to acknowledge that Japan was their equal. Japan certainly did not believe at that time that Koreans, Chinese, etc. were their equals. This is a common misconception about the Japanese "racial equality" proposal at Versailles.

Why the antagonism towards Japan? I suppose there is something particularly repulsive about "howling with the wolves", which is what Japan, as a sovereign nation, chose to do in the period from 1868-1945. So it may not be simply a matter of racism towards Orientals.
nutsagain at 10:52 AM JST - 19th August

"Aside from Tokugawa Ieyasu & his mad little attacks against Korea Japan has only once left its shores to fight a war, granted it was a big war."

Overlooked that one completely... You're right it's nonsense. Japan saw it as some sort of misguided duty to subdue the unruly Koreans for years. But it's the way they bayoneted and baby-stomped their way across Asia the is the bone in the throat for Europeans. Made worse by the failure to look at the issue much less apologize for it.
ProudKoreanGuy at 07:57 AM JST - 20th August

Fukuda’s pointed refusal to visit Yasukuni is part of an outreach to mend fences with Japan’s Asian neighbors.

Then why is he letting the Japanese ministry of education teach the kids that Korea's Dokdo is Japan's? That only damaged the fence between Japan and Korea, not help mend it. On another note, however, although I'm a Korean, I can sort of sympathize with his self-imposed avoidance of visiting the war shrine to pay his homage as the top Japanese official. In fact, I don't think that the U.S., Russia, or Western Europe would be too happy to see him visit the site, either - not just Japan's Asian neighbors.
OssanULTRA at 09:52 AM JST - 21st August

Yukotojo;

"The contention OssanUltra, is not whether or not they are Class AB&C war criminals. It's the religious and legal differences between Japan and the West over how they treat their war dead. It's a Western convention to draw lines between good/bad soldier, but in Japan a soldier is a soldier, regardless of what was handed down by a foreign court."

Disagree. The Yasukuni Shrine honors those soldiers who fought for the Emperor. And the the soldiers of the Tokugawa Shogunate who fought against the Emperor in the Boshin War are not enshrined there, while those who fought for the Imperial Govt are. Clearly there is a distinction being made equivalent to good soldier/bad soldier.

Furthermore, the Emperor Hirohito refused to visit the Shrine after the 14 Class A War Criminals were moved there. If the true instgators were those convicted war criminals, and not the Emperor, then these men fought AGAINST the Emperor simply usurping his name to lead the country. Not so different from most of Japanese history where powerful ewarlords lead the country with simply a "nod of approval" from the Emperor in Kyoto is it? If so, there is sufficient ground not to keep the 14 Class A War Crminals at the Yasukuni Shrine.

"When Tojo and those other men died, they died as judicial martyrs, not war criminals(since AB&C designations was borrowed from Nuremburg). The fact that their loved ones/bereaved can recieve pensions on their behalf, even to this day, is confirmation in itself that the Japanese government has never recognized Tojo and the others 14 as war criminals."

Disagree. Those men were members of the Imperial Armed Forces until their death and the fact that they were charged and convicted by the Allies is irrelevant to their status and service. Hence it is only natural that any pensions due to surving family should apply.
usaexpat at 12:54 AM JST - 22nd August

nutsagain, You are correct about the Japanese refusal to look at the barbarism of the IJA during WWII. I guess the thing that was in my mind when I was replying to imagawa was why are the Russians treated so differntly? Stalin certainly had nearly as much blood on his hands and yet no one criticizes Russia for its brutal expansion during and post WWII. There is still something more to the Japanese condemnation than the actions they committed alone. The Germans are said to have atoned for and faced their past much more than Japan but having many German friends and having spent time in Germany I wouldn't agree. Maybe the government did a better job looking remorseful than the Japanese did? Because Willie Brandt cried in front of a monument and they paid some money they are off the hook? People make excuses that the average German didn't know what was going on etc. etc. and I argue the average Japanese didn't either. It was avery dark time in history and if the Chinese or Koreans want to hold a grudge or protest when Japanese politicians visit Yaskune I can understand why. My problem is more with the constant anti-Japan drone that we hear from some posters here. Again as I said in my previous post I think most Americans consider the issue closed and harbor no ill feelings towards the Japanese (or the Germans for that matter just had draw some paralells)