8 fighter jets scrambled after Chinese plane flies over disputed islands

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  • 17

    tamanegi

    Abe, Ishihara and Hashimoto will have to round up the J boys from the hair salons and convenience stores!

  • 13

    Frungy

    China played this game with the philippines and won last year. Eventually it just got too expensive for the Philippines to respond to every feint from the Chinese.

    Japan should learn from this and place a missile battery on the island. If any craft come within 10kms of the island then put the radar on active tracking. If they set foot on the island (or fly directly over its airspace) then fire. Simple. Japan has to draw the line somewhere.

    If they don't draw the line somewhere then they'll establish a precedent where the Chinese will just park boats in Tokyo harbour and march their troops into Japan, confident that the Japanese don't have the balls to pull the trigger. It is FAR better to establish the precedent on a remote island like the Senkakus than to wait until they're pulling troop carriers into Tokyo harbour. There is absolutely NO legal difference between firing on a plane that illegally flies over the Senkakus and firing on a plane that illegally flies over Tokyo.

    ... and frankly once the Chinese see that Japan CAN AND WILL pull the trigger when they are CLEARLY violating Japanese territory they'll hush it up back home and the entire thing will be over. China is NOT about to go to war with two of their biggest trading partners.

  • 11

    Elbuda Mexicano

    China is stupid for doing stupid actions and very soon China will have to "face the music" because no matter what kind of BS propaganda Beijing forces down the throats of their Chinese slaves, they can not try and force all of this crap propaganda against the rest of the FREE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!

  • 8

    Sentiments

    Indeed but talk is cheap if no one listens. Its a bit risky but I think Japan is doing the right thing in standing firm on this issue. Beijing is not to be trusted when they are in an expansive phase. Most likely they will try to take over everything and anything they can in order to secure a geographical super power status. I guess Japan is the only neighburing country that they cant bully around, so far.

  • 7

    Saul Schimek

    And thus China begins to awaken the Japanese Dragon. They are morons

  • 6

    AU_user_since_1998

    China is only testing whether Japan air defense units are sleeping or not.

    China knew that Japan can see aircarft as far as Shanghai and Fujian Province.

    http://i0.wp.com/newpacificinstitute.org/jsw/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/radarmapjapan.jpg


    Besides, the USA has an artificial Intelligence system since the late 70's that track virtually all airplanes (civilian and military) that fly all over the world. USA is helping Japan on airfraft intrussion. So China can never sneak into Japanese territory unless the Japanese are sleeping.

  • 6

    FullM3taL

    BertieWoosterDec. 13, 2012 - 04:14PM JST

    Force will not solve this problem, negotiations and understanding will. We elect politicians to solve problems like this. Beijing and Tokyo need to talk.

    Bertie, I completely agree. The only problem here is that there are no elected officials in Beijing.

  • 6

    CoreyL

    This dispute just reached new heights!!

  • 6

    blue_monday

    grow up China

    The Chinese economy is about to go down the tubes, expect more chest thumping to distract the populace from their real problems

  • 5

    tokyo-star

    "Chinese state-owned plane" what kind of plane? Military? Civilian? Everything is state-owned in dirty communist countries.

  • 5

    Onniyama

    I believe the Chinese are determined to start something. I am sure Abe is licking his chops. Although he wouldn't talk so tough if the U.S. fleet was not parked in Okinawa (among other bases).

  • 5

    tairitsuiken

    Oh, how China is toying with Japan, trying to provoke any reaction.

  • 4

    bicultural

    Abe, Ishihara and Hashimoto will have to round up the J boys from the hair salons and convenience stores!

    You mean call back some of the JSDF boys from South Sudan, who all have crew cuts by the way. I personally know one of them as I am related through my wife. He is kind-hearted but one tough dude.

  • 4

    Alex Zhu

    Every time I see conflicts like this between China and Japan, I feel so sad. If there were no WW2 or Chinese Communist Party, these two countries should have been the best friends because of the geographical and cultural intimacy. Now WW2 has been over for almost a century, but we are still debating it and cannot move forward. Now the communism ideology in China has been dead for a decade, but the new generation of government is treating japan even tougher than their predecessors.

    I really don't understand what prevents a friendly and collaborative relationship between these 2 countries. What's the gain for both sides?

    Can't we develop some empathy here? For this disputed island, Japan should also understand China's claim - it had been under China's control before 1895 after China lost the JiaWu war to Japan, and of course China should understand where Japan is coming from - the island has been under Japan's control for a long time. There is no such a thing as "Inherent Territory" since the territory of a country has already been morphing in the history.

    Yes it's a tricky issue, but it's insane for anybody to think about solving it with war. I am a Chinese, but I would rather lose 10000 islands than losing 10000 lives in a war. The concept of patriotism is evil.

    When I lived in Shanghai, I often visited to a starbucks store close to my home. It's located in a japanese community where I saw a lot of japanese moms and kids. They all look beautiful and happy. Every time I see them, I keep hoping that our kids can be smarter than us - smart enough to find a way to remove all our historical burden...

  • 4

    Frungy

    Alex ZhuDec. 14, 2012 - 01:39AM JST Every time I see conflicts like this between China and Japan, I feel so sad. If there were no WW2 or Chinese Communist Party, these two countries should have been the best friends because of the geographical and cultural intimacy.

    Alex, study some of your own history. China and Japan have been fighting with each other for the last 1000 years on and off. Sure there were some times when relations were good, but some times when they were actively attempting genocide against each other.

  • 4

    cabadaje

    This is a clear escalation, and a very bad idea on China's part. While I don't think 8 fighter jets were needed in response, I do think it was a good response, in that China is trying to make little, incremental pushes, trying to wear down Japan in small, non-violent steps, so that it can claim that it was never the aggressor. An overwhelming response such as this will help make it very clear that the line has been drawn and China's coy little games will not be tolerated.

    I fear, however, that China will continue to press the issue. I hope I am wrong, but I suspect that they have decided that the Senkaku islands will make a good precedent for their land grab claims, and that neither the U.S. nor Japan will be willing to take military action to retain them. China doesn't seem to realize that the U.S. would certainly not like to go to war for these islands, however it will feel bound to if China invades, worthless piles of rock or otherwise.

  • 3

    marcelito

    @kariharuka " shoot the plane down" Take some cool aid and think about the consequences of what would happen if Japan actually did that. Escalation is the last thing Japan needs.

  • 3

    hatsoff

    I am sure Abe is licking his chops. Although he wouldn't talk so tough if the U.S. fleet was not parked in Okinawa (among other bases).

    No. Japan is bound by the terms of its surrender in 1945 to not have a standing military of its own. For that reason, the USA agreed to provide military support. Therefore, Japan is not hiding behind anyone, and for over half a century it has accepted this agreement.

    If the USA wishes to withdraw its support in this respect (which I don't think it does), then I would fully support Japan having its own military, rewriting its constitution to allow first strikes in its own defence, and the development and stockpiling of its own nuclear weapons.

    Then there could be no accusations of Japan hiding behind anyone.

  • 3

    caffeinebuzz

    This is a fairly disturbing escalation and is very reminiscent of a Cold War situation. As has been stated in other media, it seems like China is establishing a "new normal", and backing the Japanese into a corner. Bolstering Ishihara et al, is hardly what Japan needs right now and China should be fostering relations with the Japanese mainstream. I hope shortsightedness on both sides doesn't spiral this situation out of control.

  • 3

    nandakandamanda

    This is a direct challenge to Japan's sovereignty.

  • 3

    ableheart

    These type of confrontations are very common throughout the history of nation states. No doubt the most effective response is already known by the foreign policy experts. My guess would be that a response that is equal in kind would be appropriate. Some cost must be attached to these "flyovers" else they will continue. The Chinese plane should have been intercepted and forced to land on Japanese territory. Negotiations would have then commenced in order to secure the air crew's release. Alternatively, an overflight by a Japanese military aircraft should be made over Chinese airspace. To allow these provocations to continue w/o a commensurate response is to court disaster.

  • 3

    lachance

    Want to stop PLA aggression? It's easy really. They're looking outwards right now, looking to expand. Make them look inwards. Start a "Free Tibet" rally. Support a Tibetan underground of Freedom Fighters. Make a movie about some heroic Tibetan fighting the communist take-over of his country. Then, make sure every Tibetan sees that movie. Make China the enemy with a rallying cry. Make China focus its gunsights inward again, as it begins to break apart one new country at a time.

    Make the Uighurs in Xinjiang start seeing themselves as oppressed by the invading Han Chinese, who are slowly making them a minority in their own ethnic sphere. Make Inner Mongolia see its future better aligned with Outer Mongolia which, after all, is a more natural alignment for these ethnically identical peoples. Yes, make China realize that it shouldn't be concentrating on expanding outwards when it's falling apart.

    After all that, make the Southeastern and Eastern coasts realize they're better off without these poor provinces sucking up their wealth in Beijing's re-distribution schemes. Rich people won't object too much, as long as they secure contractual rights to resources in those provinces. Then break up the coast into three or more separate countries by fostering competition between them based on historical imperatives tied to their three major rivers.

    Yes, you can stop China from its expansionist ideology by breaking it apart into manageable entities. Start with Tibet. Give Tibetans a hero.

  • 3

    Kobuta Chan

    I don't under about idea of Communist Chinese leaders. They want to play cat and mouse game. The Communist leaders will use any opportunity to gain their political ambition and try to derail peoples attention on high rank party officials' corruption by intimidating it neighbors. One thing can chance Communist Chinese leaders' out of date philosophy by boycotting Chinese products in it neighboring countries. It will hurt Communist Chinese economy and unemployment raising can lead to destabilize in China. Otherwise, Japanese Companies have to quit Communist China and indirect investing in US and Europe Companies. For sure, Communist Chinese leaders want concession for fishing, oil and gas exploring in around Senkaku Island chain from Japanese Government. Don't forget about character of Communist peoples. If you give them one free and then they will ask more for peoples from back home.

  • 3

    CrisGerSan

    I dont agree at all that Japan should back down that does not work with bullies ever. There is no way to say that China has the right to keep grabbing more and more territory just because they want to. Read Kobuta Chan's posts on this topic they are some of the best I have seen here or anywhere. We must be clear about our support for peaceful co existence and rational relations between nations, no matter how large or small. It is in the interest of international peace and prosperity for fairness and equality and not trying to use force and power.

  • 3

    cabadaje

    name 1 single country (other than the Us) which supports japan on this diaoyu matter ?

    What other country has a stake in it?

  • 2

    alliswellinjapan

    This only helps the LDP and Ishin get more votes. What is China thinking.

  • 2

    slave owner

    i'll go get some popcorn

  • 2

    Derek Vasconi

    Does anybody here find it strangely curious that this happened only a few days after North Korea breached Japanese airspace with its rocket? Hmmm, lets see, China has the veto power in the U.N. Council that it's going to be delegating with over what happened with North Korea. China doesn't want to piss off North Korea or lose its support to them, so it creates a classic distraction that will allow the U.N. to get upset with China over what it just did and voila! "We'll if you're going to be like that, Mr. U.N. council, then I'll just say no to whatever you propose to do about North Korea." I mean, doesn't anyone see how this could possibly be what is at play here? China didn't just "fly" over Japan's airspace. I love the Chinese almost as much as I love the Japanese, but sometimes I just wish I could take the Chinese over my lap and spank them for playing this 5 year-old games lol.

  • 2

    motytrah

    Here's the dirty little secret of the world. Russia and China violate sovereign airspace every day. In Europe the Russia's have been flying into NATO countries for over a decade. Most of what NATO does is scramble fighters to play a big game of "I'm not touching you."

    China does the same thing with their borders, it was only a matter of time before they took it up a notch with Japan.

  • 2

    ushosh123

    I think japan should retaliate by starting to develop on senkaku, start drilling for oil and watch that $$ flow in!

  • 2

    CrisGerSan

    China continues to act in an absurd manner as if they are the only nation that matters on the planet. I hope they wake up to the fact that they are hardly making a good impression on the rest of the international community but i suspect that the Communist Leadership continues to have the same world view as Mao and the early revolutionary leaders, that is that they are somehow sanctified and allowed to do whatever they wish because they represent "the people". Sadly this is really just facism and Dictatorship hidden beneath a thin veneer of popular "authority" ...and in any regard, such authority can hardly apply outside the actual borders of the nation. To try to extend extra territorially using this thin excuse is going to cause them a lot of trouble for any and all respectable nations bar none will support Japan in this and Korea, and North Vietnam in other instances, this will just set a clear precedent that China will attempt to create this "new normal" by aggressive provocation and bullying. It is no different from the school bullying that we share about here ...and has just as much a potential for harm to individuals and nations if not confronted resolutely and with all sincerity and earnest resolve. I congratulate Japan and the Self Defense force for resolute and very respectful action, well carried out. Please keep it up for all our sakes.

  • 2

    Joe Buck

    "That's why I hate Chinese!'"

    That's why there are 2 billion people there hating a$$e$ like you too. I watched a documentary about Nazi America: A Secret History on Youtube. Funny at one point they talked about how the hard core Germans, Italians and Japanese Americans were put in a camp during WW2. However, the Germans and Italians ignored the Japanese counterpart because they were seen as an inferior race. Then the Germans looked down on the Italians themselves.

    The funny thing about all this is that the 3 countries actually believed they were more superior than the others. I wonder what happens if the 3 won WW2. I put $ in that the Germans will attach Italy and Japan too. Why not have the whole world? Funny no? Morons aren't they?

  • 2

    sfjp330

    Facts are Japan does not have sovereignty to Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands, so how can you have right to air space? Japan does not have independent authority over a the islands and they cannot have power to rule and make law. Japan just admisters the islands like the General Managers and nothing more.

  • 2

    Redcliff

    @ Saketown

    " The Commies are clever but they are impatient and the weakness is where the Japanese can win the Geopolitical Chess Match... Patience is the key...."

    I think China is currently testing the patience of Japan. May be you should pray that Ishihara or Abe would not be elected or else all held will break loose.

  • 2

    hidingout

    they sided with china for legal reasons.

    I believe you are mistaken sir. They sided with no one. They are not interested in getting involved. The communists are the nutter on the bus and everyone knows it.

  • 2

    sfjp330

    The whole Senkaku incident raised worries about how potentially volatile relations are between China and Japan and how poor communication is between the two countries, how small players like boat captains and nationalist can shape events and how few checks there are preventing things from getting out of control. The relations must be improved because, after all, China is a very important neighbor. But at the same time, that was a wake-up call, that Japan shouldn't count too much on one country in economic matters. China has misplayed its hand and that has forced the J-goverment to get more realistic about regional security issues. China’s response to Senkaku incident is further evidence that their economic superpower isn’t prepared to assume the responsibilities that go with that status. Major economic powers, realizing that they have an important stake in the international system, are normally very hesitant about resorting to economic warfare, even in the face of severe provocation. China showed no hesitation at all about using its trade muscle to get its way in a political dispute. What you have is a rogue economic superpower, unwilling to play by the rules. And the question is what Japan going to do about it.

  • 1

    BertieWooster

    Force will not solve this problem, negotiations and understanding will.

    We elect politicians to solve problems like this.

    Beijing and Tokyo need to talk.

  • 1

    BurakuminDes

    Ha ha! The chinese leaders are toying with the japanese government - and the J-Govt is falling for it! Those guys are sitting back laughing right now knowing that they are calling the shots and can so easily provoke a reaction. 8 fighter jets for a survey plane? Morons in charge! lol

    If it happens again shoot the planes down. China can't complain because they are entering our airspace without authority.

    @ Kari Haruka - it would probably pay to focus your anger on the Japanese leaders and why they have driven the joint into the economic and environmental cesspit that it is - NOT the chinese playing silly business.

  • 1

    hkitagawa

    I believed that China was a good ally but they now are showing their true nature. I was wrong. I wonder what had happened if they invaded the American air space. A serious country can't never allow it.

  • 1

    Tom Webb

    Japan should have forced the China plane to land. Next time, shoot it down. You know China is gradually ramping-up to create incidents and force Japan's hand.

  • 1

    Saketown

    A Canadian - Agreed. And furthermore, the Japanese are restrained by the U.S.-Treaty NOT to Fire unless a situation becomes hostile or life threading ( or something to that effect). Basically, the Japanese can't just Shoot Down a plane to simply teach the Commies a lesson. It doesn't work that way Politically and the Commies know that. That is why they sent an "Observation Plane" instead of a Military Aircraft. The Commies are clever but they are impatient, and that weakness is where the Japanese can win this Geopolitical Chess Match...Patience is the Key.

  • 1

    lucabrasi

    Japan should have forced the China plane to land.

    Where?

  • 1

    hidingout

    The major EU countries rejected Japan's FM when he asked for their support during his visit a few months ago

    They didn't exactly "reject" Japan's requests, more like avoided taking a position.

    Ever been on a bus or some other public transportation when one mentally unbalanced person is giving another individual a hard time? Usually most of the other passengers will look at the roof, out the window, anywhere but at the spot that the drama is taking place. Its rare for someone to speak up and say to the trouble maker "hey nutter, back off". Its a weakness in human nature based on self-preservation. I think the same principle applies here.

  • 1

    Kazuaki Shimazaki

    First some specific responses:

    @AUusersince_1998 The Y-12 is not that small a plane - it is about the size of an executive jet with 17 passenger capacity.

    It may be the undefeatable problem of the horizon. Or since the North Koreans were doing the launch that day, the radar's resources was focused onto the Northern sector trying to track the rocket and thus missed our Y-12.

    @mano2012 I'm sure that it is very comforting for the Chinese to take any sign of non-support as a sign they are right, but hidingout and others view that it is a matter of self-preservation and realism is almost certainly the correct interpretation.

    I'm sure you'll find about as few countries willing to make a clear-cut statement the islands belong to China.

    Though perhaps one can read it as lousy tactics on the Japanese government's part, since this result was predictable, as is the fact some people will interpret events as you will.

    Maybe that's why people are going LDP. They are not really looking forward to them fixing the economy. They just want foreign policy to be in relatively experienced hands.

    @BertieWooster The Chinese have the advantage of first discovery and MAYBE a visit once every century or so but that's the limit of their claim. While the Japanese followed the accepted international procedure and the Chinese didn't object until 1970. Kind of tells you who's really the aggressor here.

    But I do agree China is more adult in its methods, in terms of it being more long term, subtle and devious. It is ironically, one of the advantage of NOT being a democracy, and also when time is on your side. As long as you maintain a support level that doesn't lead to revolts, you can plan long term while democracies have to divert resources to appease short term interests.

    Also, I don't see why anyone can think there can be real negotiations on the matter, simply because sovereignty is so much a one-sided deal. Either you have it, or the other side does. Negotiations generally work with analogue subjects where both sides can bend. Sovereignty over certain islands is a digital issue.

    @BurakuminDes All right, let's see your idea of a proportionate response.

  • 1

    Nathaw

    Shimazaki San

    While the Japanese followed the accepted international procedure and the Chinese didn't object until 1970. Kind of tells you who's really the aggressor here.

    What sort of international procedure are you talking about? Was any backroom deal absence of PRC and ROC? Both of ROC & PRC didn’t attend 1951 San Francisco Treaty meeting because of China civil war so later on Treaty of Taipei was signed for all related issues.

    The background of the disputed isles base on they were not part of Ryuku because after Japan’s forceful assertion of its authority over the Ryukyu Kingdom in 1874. Later in a letter dated Sept 22, 1885 by Nishimura Sutezo, the Okinawa Prefectural Magistrate, addressed to the JP Home Minister that the Okinawa Prefectural Magistrate requested additional instructions regarding the placement of national markers on the Diaoyutai/Senkaku Islands. So after JP got Ryuku, JP further tried to took the isles from China. And after 1895, JP got them on the 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki.

    Thus, there is no reason to suppose that reference to Formosa in** the Cairo Declaration & Potsdam Proclamation did not include “all islands appertaining or belonging to the said island of Formosa.” Moreover, by virtue of Article 2 of the San Francisco Treaty (excluding both the ROC and PRC), Japan renounced “all right, title, claim to Formosa and the Pescadores.: Lastly, the terms were reiterated in Article 4 of the 1952 Treaty of Peace between the ROC and JP which stated,**

    Japan has renounced all right, title and claim to Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) as well as the Spratly Islands and the Paracel Islands… all treaties, conventions and agreements concluded before December 9, 1941, between China and Japan have become null and void as a consequence of the war.

    This provision completes the chain of treaties and agreements that legally require Japan to renounce its claim to Taiwan and, by implication, all the islands that appertain to or belong to Taiwan. Also as a result of this provision, the 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki became nullified. Viewed together, the above treaties and agreements form the legal basis of the ROC’s claim to the disputed islands.

    From PRC side, there is another story because they point to the Joint Communiqué between the PRC and JP signed in 1972 which states that Japan “adheres to stand of complying with Article 8 of the Potsdam Proclamation.” which are further confirmed by the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the PRC and Japan, signed on 1978.

    Japan was an aggressor of land grabber and did not honor the international formality of procedures as you posted. Hope it has answered your question!

  • 1

    Ali Khan

    China can afford to sacrifice its population and money but not Japan .....

  • 1

    Athletes

    Shimzaki San

    In fact it proves the opposite, that the islands and Taiwan are separate issues. Thus we can skip four of your paragraphs that assume the Senkaku being part of the Formosas.

    Really! When I looked at the map, it was a backyard of Taiwan. Very Far away from Mainland Japan. Is Terra Nullus Japanese name? Did Meiji use Foreign name for Geography? Why not they use Kanji which was imported from old China?

  • 1

    kurisupisu

    Eight fighter jets for a prop plane -slight overkill.....

  • 1

    Noliving

    Force will not solve this problem, negotiations and understanding will. We elect politicians to solve problems like this. Beijing and Tokyo need to talk.

    For Japan force will not solve this problem, for China that is a different matter.

    Tokyo needs to talk not Beijing.

  • 1

    BertieWooster

    Noliving-san,

    Tokyo needs to talk not Beijing.

    Communication has to be two way.

    One side talks, the other gives them their full attention.

    Then they turn around and the first guys listen while the second guys get to speak.

    Someone says something someone doesn't understand, it's explained.

    Negotiations proceed.

    There is give and take and finally agreement.

    Japan didn't do this.

    They reacted with hysteria, sending EIGHT F15s after ONE Chinese propellor plane.

    As I pointed out on here before, Japanese are just not cut out for fighting. That's probably why the Tokyo government wants the US military to do it for them.

    The samurai spirit, budo is often mistranslated. It is not the "Art of War," but, if you look at the Kanji, it is the "Way to Stop Fighting."

    This article explains it far better than I can:

    http://www.minrec.org/wilson/pdfs/Concepts--Bu%20and%20Budo.pdf

    Japan's hysterical reaction in this incident is not the spirit of Budo at all. It's desperation, panic, hysteria.

    And a HUGE waste of money.

  • 1

    Athletes

    According the Art of war the real outcome of victory should last for ages. Not only a few months or a few years. What ever Inflammable Shimazaki San posted everything were tried before by Imperialist army. It was a total failure and disappointment. Ultra rightist like Ishihara is very fond of revisiting war time adventure he has never participated before. The more inflammable phrases of pre war-nationalist,the more likely they are Chicken Hawks who has never served for Arm Force.

    Everything have changed now! Even there is a conflict, there will be no physical contact like Saving Private Ryan and Tora, Tora, Tora movies. It will be more likely long range warfare there is no visibility of enemy.

  • 1

    Zenpun

    Kazuaki ShimazakiDEC. 14, 2012 - 02:23PM JST

    Actually no. In 1895, they declared the Senkaku islands Terra Nullus and took them for their own. On the same year, the treaty was signed after Japan's victory and they got Taiwan. The coincidence in time is used by many Chinese to bolster their claim, but in fact it proves the opposite, that the islands and Taiwan are separate issues. Thus we can skip four of your paragraphs that assume the Senkaku being part of the Formosas.

    Japan annexed Ryuku in1874. If that Isles Is part of Ryuku why did they have to wait until 1895? It is not logical and lack the credibility as it is chain of Ryuku. If you follow all the dots along the Ryuku, it will reach the Hainan. Is Hainan also part of Ryuku? There were absolutely set up conspiracy for grabbing more and more land in 1895. It is a theory of Yours is mine. Mine is mine too. Actually no to that paragraph. It is hilarious.

  • 0

    KariHaruka

    If it happens again shoot the planes down. China can't complain because they are entering our airspace without authority.

  • 0

    sojherde

    It is all developing just as the smart guys A. I. T. planned. If they get the attendance they need to get voted, they do not care when the whole country will be destroyed. The more dead heroes they can get, the more "glory".

  • 0

    Tony Ogawa

    japanese are ready to alert. period. do not play the ""game"" china is very sneaky>>>>>>(( business and politics))

  • 0

    hidingout

    You are a real product of western propaganda :-))))

    Nah, a product of liberal western education where they teach the facts about communism. I pity those folks who have been so indoctrinated by communism that they actually believe that its the other 99% of the world's countries that got it wrong.

  • 0

    chaschik

    This is about China testing the resolve of both US military and its allies in the region. Why? It has always claimed Taiwan as a rogue part of Communist China. Taiwan is defended by US and the regional allies. Taiwan is a part of the island archipelago that includes the disputed islands. China is keeping on point with its declared intention to force integration of Taiwan.

    The past history of China, Japan, and the United States are rife with despicable actions. None of these powers have a pure record. This conflict is not about who has the moral superiority. It is about self determination for free trade peoples everywhere to live and prosper as they deem fit. If not defended, then the whole region including Okinawa, will be forfeit. The Imperial Chinese extorted "protection" money from the Okinawans in the past, a policy which continued from Medieval times until 1892. Is this the future?

  • 0

    flowers

    China is looking for an excuse to teach Japan a bigger lesson. Yes, it is easy to shoot down a plane, but what are the consequences. All China has to do is saying a word “war”, and Japanese economy will go into a tail spin. Remember that Japan relies on China more. Japan will see more riots and unrest, suicide rates will double, terrorism will be rampant, and Japan will be living in fear. What if China wants to take a revenge for Nanjing Massacre since there’s never been a sincere apology anyway, but China will not go that route. Japanese people will see the political turmoil and another change in government which will pursue a dialogue with China. You will ask what about the US? Do you think the US will declare war with China, not likely? Yes, more war ships will be sent to the area but that only creates more intense fear for the Japanese people. Foreigners and large corporations will start moving out of Japan, and Japan will see extreme depression. Now, all China has to do is watching until a new J gov’t is in place and willing to talk.

  • 0

    AU_user_since_1998

    There was a disturbing news last night in NHK Channel 11. They interviewed the Japan Airforce Commander from the nearest RADAR facility, probably in Miyakojima.

    The surveillance RADAR did not see the small plance flying just a few hundred feet from the sea level. The MiyakoJima is one of the oldest type RADAR still in operation in Japan. It must be changed to the latest type. If possible, the NEC-3D Godzilla model.

    It was reported to the airforce by the Japan Coast Guard when they spotted it throu the binocular telescope.

    Without any idea how many aircraft or or if there are others coming, JASDF scramble the 8 readily available F-15 just to be sure for eany eventuality.

    If your RADAR did not detect the incoming air-craft, one of the possibility is there is another aircarft jamming your RADAR within your 200-mile surveilance radius.

    Scrambling 8 F-15 is just the right thing to do when you were blind at an any given instant.

  • 0

    Speed

    The US is conspicuously quiet over this whole affair.

  • 0

    Redcliff

    @ Kasuaki Shimazaki

    "However if I am playing it, I will also give the Chinese an out, by merely threatening, but with credibility, to do so, I'll make the preparations, then tell the Chinese quietly.

    Hmmm try to figure out what you are trying to convey. NOTHING

  • 0

    lachance

    I love the Chinese argument that they have the right to the Senkakus because history gave it to them. If this is the foundation of such a belief, I also believe the Mongols have a right to China because history gave it to them. It's time that the Mongols were reminded of their historical right to dominate China...instead of being dominated by China. Perhaps then China would give up this ridiculous notion that history confers any right to territory.

  • 0

    flowers

    Every move made by Japan has been more aggressive than China, is this out of fear or foolhardiness? Fear is justified in that China has more and more public supports and the seed of revenge is there. China is just waiting for Japan to make the wrong move and start the fight, then it will be over. The operations to topple J gov’t will be quick and swift. Forget about the US, it will take days for them to decide what to do because of the offensive move by Japan. Some people think Japan will not start the fight, but we all can see the trend in that Japan is becoming more and more aggressive fueled by misguided national pride and notion of US backing, and one day the unexpected will happen. What I don’t understand is how come the Japanese people can be easily fooled by their right wing gov’t. Nationalism aside, we all know that the war will only lead to more damage for japan.

  • 0

    michikokada

    Dispute comes from something unsettled, may it be emotions, energy, land, islands, water, the sun, the moon, our planet. It can be settled in court (not this case, unfortunately), by money or force...no settlement if both sides don't "recognise" there is a dispute. Do we need to settle? Yes, there is a bigger dream than any of these nations: the East Asia Commonwealth :) Actually Japan had this idea before WII but he wanted to lead and imposed it in a very wrong way, how about now we get equal and make it beneficial for Japan, China and Korea, this UNION will eventually grow and benefit more countries in Asia. Fly the jets "containing" negotiators instead of warriors, to the negotiating table instead of the trouble waters.

  • 0

    nigelboy

    And the question is what Japan going to do about it.

    Adapt. With the most recent being the "rare earth" where Japan has adjusted to an alternative source and materials.

    Heck. You can go back to the oil shock of 70's where alternates like LNG, reevaluation of coal, and nuclear and other alternative sources started to develop. The halt of soybean exports by U.S. basically gave the South Americans to dominate the export market in subsequent years thereafter.

  • 0

    mano2012

    @kazuaki

    you seemed to be so sure the ownership,

    but the japan gov is not so sure about it:

    "Unilateral Decisions by Japan-V/The Diaoyu/Senkaku-XXI

    "In 1972, Zhou Bin, now 77-years-old, was an interpreter in the meeting between Zhou Enlai and Tanaka Kakuei as both countries was trying to normalize their relationship. He served the official interpreter for the Chinese government in 40 years ago. As the issue of the Diaoyu/Senkaku was broached, according to Zhou Bin, the Chinese Premier Zhou did not “want to talk about it this time… It’s no good to talk about this now (Kyodo News 29 September 2012; Phoenix News 29 September 2012).” “Premier Zhou suggested solving (the territorial dispute) in future intergovernmental peace negotiations, and Prime Minister Tanaka agreed (Kyodo News 29 September 2012).” Ironically, the Tanaka's statement in this meeting has been deleted by the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Why?"

    http://chinajapanusrelations.blogspot.ca/2012/10/unilateral-decisions-by-japan-vthe.html

  • 0

    BertieWooster

    OssanAmerica,

    I wrote:

    As fighters they over-react and get hysterical. Japan would be much better off being a neutral country.

    And you replied:

    That's not what my late uncle who served on Guadalcanal told me.

    Guadalcanal?

    1942?

    Take a look at the wimps we have in Japan in 2012.

    Fighters?

    No.

    They'd run a mile.

  • 0

    BertieWooster

    sfjp330-san,

    The whole Senkaku incident raised worries about how potentially volatile relations are between China and Japan and how poor communication is between the two countries

    The poor communication is what worries me the most.

    The only way the issue is going to be resolved is by sitting down and working it out.

    By people who WANT to work it out.

  • 0

    Nathaw

    Souverinity gain and loss come from treaty of winner bias. Japan surrerendered uncondinally without pre condition for leaving some land for them. Japan by self owned by US after WWII. As a member of Allies, US has never formally announced that Souverinity issue. It also have no credibility of moral or historical or legal authority to decide. Any back room deals without Claiming nations are invalid. California was belong to Mexico before.Mexico did not complain because they were the loser. If Japan was a winner of WWII, there is no debate about souvernity Loser .

    If all parties can share the common ground, it will be better tomorrows.

  • 0

    bajhista65

    Such confrontations have become commonplace since Japan nationalised the East China Sea islands in September, a move it insisted amounted to nothing more than a change of ownership of what was already Japanese territory. This started it all. If it was already a Japanese Territory , what the hell did Japan nationalised and the guise of change ownership. One says shoot the chinese plane if it happened again. I agree. Like what Russia did when a Korean commercial plane dirfted Russia's air space. Chinese is good in intriguing and provoking. But I tell you, it's all bluffs and and just testing how far Japan can tolerate.

  • 0

    Jay Hoffman

    If Japan were willing to say these six magic words the island's sovereignty is in dispute the most of brouhaha could go away in a New York second. Just don’t see it happening though. Japanese would rather die than lose face.

    BTW, China really don’t mind Japan going the route of rearmament , it would only accelerate the process of J’s bankruptcy

  • -1

    sheetu

    I like the move, better a war.

  • -1

    Nhan Thai

    it is not an honor sign of china , this is just a sign of bullying , and the bullish is always not respected by others . but china is not really stronger than japan , it is just the the bigger ass , and eventually japan must teach it the old lesson however

  • -1

    Ewan Huzarmy

    The islands ARE Japan's the world basically recognizes that

    Errrr, since when ?

  • -1

    BertieWooster

    mano2012-san,

    The islands do not belong to Japan.

    And that is the basic point.

    China has more claim historically and geographically than Japan.

    China is actually being more adult than hysterical Japan in this case.

    And if Japan considers them part of Okinawa, then it should treat Okinawa like a human being and not as a dumping ground for US bases that it doesn't want on the mainland.

  • -1

    Nessie

    The Y-12 is a twin-turboprop.

    A stroke of genius. Having a turboprop shot down by fighter jets would be a real PR coup for China. They really know how to play this game.

  • -1

    mano2012

    @kazuaki

    Maybe that's why people are going LDP. They are not really looking forward to them fixing the economy. They just want >foreign policy to be in relatively experienced hands.

    I tend to agree with you on this one, but Abe will also have hard times dealing with china. This is very tough nut to crack for japan. If you look at the complete pictures, by studying the legal documents etc.. japan has a weak case.

    But I do agree China is more adult in its methods, in terms of it being more long term, subtle and devious. It is >ironically, one of the advantage of NOT being a democracy, and also when time is on your side. As long as you >maintain a support level that doesn't lead to revolts, you can plan long term while democracies have to divert >resources to appease short term interests.

    Usually when one party is right, he will use a cooler head, but a lawyer who is losing will literally pound the table hard with his hands, because there was nothing else from him to convince that he could win.

  • -1

    OssanAmerica

    BertieWoosterDec. 13, 2012 - 10:26PM JST Saul Shimek-san, "And thus China begins to awaken the Japanese Dragon."

    There never was a Japanese dragon. Japanese are much better farmers and fishermen than fighters. As fighters they over-react and get hysterical. Japan would be much better off being a neutral country.

    That's not what my late uncle who served on Guadalcanal told me. US Veterans also praise the Vietnamese as fighters. But despite the Korean war nobody considers Chinese as great fighters just MG fodder in numbers. China is upping the ante and forcing Japan to protect it's airspace with the JASDF. If China uses that as an excuse to bring the PLAN to the Senkakus they will be answering to the United States.

  • -1

    mano2012

    Here is what china wanted.. i just did a search:

    "...

    "To solve the dispute, Japan needs to face history. The Japanese government has not only denied the dispute, but also refused to acknowledge an agreement to shelve the dispute reached by the former leaders of the two countries in the 1970s.

    Forty years ago, when China and Japan normalized their diplomatic relations, former Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai and visiting Japanese Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka agreed that priority should be placed on the overall interests of bilateral ties, with the Diaoyu Islands dispute to be shelved until a later date."

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-10/11/c_131900504.htm

  • -1

    Jay Hoffman

    "dispute to be shelved until a later date"

    hit it on the nail on this one , don't see any way out for the both countries unless they want to go to a war, then you say goodbye to the Asian Century

  • -2

    Tiger_In_The_Hermitage

    Comments like: "Shot the plane down", "Dirty Communist Countries" & "China is stupid" is not very productive and seems these people are well educated in Western popuganda. "The Communist" are bad people.... in fact they are no different than u and I.

  • -2

    umbrella

    Japan is so weak, we all know that. They will not take any action and China can and will do what wants. Do the Japanese still want all the American forces to leave??

  • -2

    gelendestrasse

    @ bertie - I think WWII proved that the Japanese are well able to fight, but in this case I agree that restraint is better. At the same time I'm sure the JSDF brass is going to use every opportunity to get some training time in and to push back on the Chinese. Why the Chinese think their bullying is going to get them anywhere I don't know, but I expect that there will be some shooting before there are serious talks. Stupid but, as was pointed out, there are no elected officials in Beijing.

  • -2

    Jason Ma

    China and Japan should be friends not enemies. If one try to see it from the Chinese point of view, they could not back down. China is trying hard to shake of this "sick man of Asia" identity. Also politically, both Chinese and Japanese want to see a "strong" government in their respective countries. However; I don't think it's in Japan's interests to retaliate strongly with the whole thing, there're already many problems in Japan and Korea and China stand together against Japan in territorial dispute issues.

  • -2

    Kazuaki Shimazaki

    Now some general comments:

    Overall, I see 40 years of accomodationist policy by Japan and America coming home to roost (For those who think America is not accomodationist, try thinking if the Soviet Union tried this crap), and I agree more with the hard-liner side. As long as it costs China nearly nothing to play such games (in fact, as some have pointed out Japan paid more to scramble the fighter jets, then keep up the alert than China did to fly that plane out that far), they would continue.

    I think the LDP's plan for a permanent presence on the Senkakus is the 2nd best realistic option. The Chinese will scream their lungs out for awhile, but once the presence is in place, they will have to invade to get rid of them and they know the world won't stand for it. Thus it makes for the biggest (reasonable) card Japan can play in this game.

    However, if I were playing it, I will also give the Chinese an out, by merely threatening, but with credibility, to do so. I'll make the preparations, then tell the Chinese quietly.

    @Nathaw:

    And after 1895, JP got them on the 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki.

    Actually no. In 1895, they declared the Senkaku islands Terra Nullus and took them for their own. On the same year, the treaty was signed after Japan's victory and they got Taiwan. The coincidence in time is used by many Chinese to bolster their claim, but in fact it proves the opposite, that the islands and Taiwan are separate issues. Thus we can skip four of your paragraphs that assume the Senkaku being part of the Formosas.

    Japan was an aggressor of land grabber and did not honor the international formality of procedures as you posted. Hope it has answered your question!

    In fact while morally it was probably just-desserts, from a legal perspective, the Allied powers were pretty hypocritical in lumping Shimonoseki and the annexation of Korea, which they themselves acqueisced to, along with later gains which they did not (for example, Manchuria).

  • -2

    Kazuaki Shimazaki

    @mano2012

    japan has a weak case.

    I won't call myself ready to fight the case in front of the ICJ anytime soon, but I did study it a bit more than the average man on the street.

    The parts where the Chinese claim died for me can be summarized as: 1) The fact that Japan took the Taiwan by Treaty and Senkaku by terra nullus. In 1895, they weren't planning on losing in 1945, so if they wanted the Senkakus and thought it was part of the Formosas, it is no problem to just put it in the treaty or interpret the Treaty to include the Senkakus on basis of it being part of the Taiwan. All terra nullus does is give China the opportunity to object to it, which they couldn't have if it was made part of the treaty.

    2) The fact the Chinese implicitly acqueisced for about 75 years, which would be worth 750 in an earlier, slower-moving age. I bet the Chinese government tried desperately to find something, anything that remotely resembles a national-level protest note on the subject. But all that popped up so far are a few cases where the Chinese explicitly acqueisced (like that very famous 50s map, or the thank you note).

    3) China's best hope is to get the islands recognized as part of the Formosans, so (as Nathaw pointed out) the treaties and declarations ending WWII would cover it. But in the end, the US (read: biggest contributor to V-J in terms of effectiveness) gave it back to Japan. Which ended any chance of that interpretation.

    Usually when one party is right, he will use a cooler head, but a lawyer who is losing will literally pound the table hard with his hands, because there was nothing else from him to convince that he could win.

    A more all-encompassing theory is that people confident of their eventual victory are usually cooler. while the less confident side is more aggressive. Since people tend to think justice would prevail sooner or later, there is probably some correlation between righteousness and coolness, but it takes no great imagination to think of cases where factors OTHER than righteousness decides victory.

    @Athletes

    If proximity were key, the Falklands will be the Malvinas. 'Nuff said.

    @Redcliff You are right. I had something written after that place, but cut it short the crude lazy way for brevity.

    But basically what I will do is prepare the troops, show their Defense Attache so they know I'm not bluffing, and then trade not putting the troops in for a cessation of incursions and economic attacks. If I can make it clear that a provocation will result in an immediate deployment equating the end of their attempts to assert dominion over the island, then since all the incursions and economic attacks will only push them further from their goal, they would quit.

  • -2

    mano2012

    Major economic powers, realizing that they have an important stake in the international system, are normally very >hesitant about resorting to economic warfare, even in the face of severe provocation. China showed no hesitation at all >about using its trade muscle to get its way in a political dispute. What you have is a rogue economic superpower, >unwilling to play by the rules. And the question is what Japan going to do about it.

    Not really.

    1. Russia cut off gas to some european countries a few years ago due to some dispute, but to show off its muscle.

    2. The US has been using its economic muscles to all kinds of countries for decades on end.

    3. OPEC used its muscle during the oil crisis in the 1970s.

    There is nothing Unusual about these kinds of actions.

  • -3

    hidingout

    Comments like: "Shot the plane down", "Dirty Communist Countries" & "China is stupid" is not very productive and seems these people are well educated in Western popuganda. "The Communist" are bad people.... in fact they are no different than u and I.

    Productive? When have the communists ever cared about "productive" when it comes to relations with Japan? Perhaps you meant to say "provocative" and slipped a few keys while typing? And yes, the communists are bad. They withhold freedom from their own citizens and make a mockery of any international consensus. I can't wait for the day their corrupt state crumbles around them .... I expect that will be very soon now.

  • -3

    AkariYoshida

    If the world were a high school china would be the bullies or the gang. The islands ARE Japan's the world basically recognizes that but a lot of countries are afraid of angering China so they wont say it. Honestly China is playing dirty. They try to mask their true plans behind lies and words, but then again most countries due. I just wonder how much more the world can become corrupt before God comes back

  • -3

    Joe Buck

    "If it happens again shoot the planes down. China can't complain because they are entering our airspace without authority."

    Your airspace according to what book? Isn't that's what the dispute is all about? I think likewise, China should shoot down every plane and sink every boat Japan try to send there.

  • -4

    flipper2

    Calling 8 fighter jets to destroy a small propeller engine Cesnot. Very Topgun J, whats next?

  • -4

    YuriOtani

    It is very good training and shoot it down? No Japanese are not Communist Chinese and Russians as we do not shoot down unarmed aircraft.

  • -4

    mano2012

    They didn't exactly "reject" Japan's requests, more like avoided taking a position.

    Ever been on a bus or some other public transportation when one mentally unbalanced person is giving another >individual a hard time? Usually most of the other passengers will look at the roof, out the window, anywhere but at the >spot that the drama is taking place. Its rare for someone to speak up and say to the trouble maker "hey nutter, back >off". Its a weakness in human nature based on self-preservation. I think the same principle applies here.

    u r giving a wrong analogy. those eu countries have their legal experts who advise their governments on these matters. they know what they are talking about when they rejected japan re: foreign minister. they sided with china for legal reasons.

  • -4

    mano2012

    I believe you are mistaken sir. They sided with no one. They are not interested in getting involved. The communists are the nutter on the bus and everyone knows it.

    u can get technical, just 1 question: name 1 single country (other than the Us) which supports japan on this diaoyu matter ?!

  • -4

    nigelboy

    ..Japan is willing to assume full responsibility and authority for the exercise of all powers of administration, legislation and jurisdiction over the territory and inhabitants of the Ryukyu Islands ....

    Some people define this as sovereignty.

  • -5

    basroil

    KariHarukaDec. 13, 2012 - 03:55PM JST

    If it happens again shoot the planes down. China can't complain because they are entering our airspace without authority.

    Yup, though at the speeds of most aircraft it's a second or two that they are over the islands. Also unlike ships, the airspace restrictions are only on dry land, though it seems that in this case it was indeed violated.

  • -5

    mano2012

    Game over for Japan, unfortunately. China is just too big for Japan.

    American Power is in Terminal Decline http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/node/1468

    Japan falls into recession http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/10/japan-recession

  • -5

    mano2012

    The Chinese economy is about to go down the tubes, expect more chest thumping to distract the populace from their real problems

    China is moving forward towards its own internal economy, it dont need japan.

    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90778/7966979.html

  • -5

    mano2012

    I think japan should retaliate by starting to develop on senkaku, start drilling for oil and watch that $$ flow in!

    How can you develop something that does not belong to you??

    A few weeks ago, Japan foreign minister went to europe to try to get support from major EU countries, but they rejected him by saying that Japan is on the wrong side.

  • -5

    issa1

    That's why I hate Chinese!

  • -5

    mano2012

    The islands do not belong to Japan. All countries and ppl in the world are watching this, and they are on China's side. The major EU countries rejected Japan's FM when he asked for their support during his visit a few months ago. Basically, they said: sorry japan, No!

    Japan is being pushed out of China as a result of this and products are being boycotted. You know what.. when other Asian countries see that, they will start to lose respect for Japan.. Game over, really.

  • -5

    mano2012

    fyi:

    "Japan fails to win support on Senkakus issue from Europe's 'Big 3' October 20, 2012

    THE ASAHI SHIMBUN

    Despite his announcements of achievements, Foreign Minister Koichiro Genba failed to win clear support from France, Britain and Germany for Japan’s sovereignty claims to the Senkaku Islands during his European tour.

  • -6

    BertieWooster

    Let's see now, the Chinese plane in question was a fixed-wing Y-12.

    And the JSDF sent EIGHT F-15s after it?

    One would have been overkill.

    According to this page:

    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/20090712.aspx

    The operating cost for an F-15 is 30,000 US dollars PER HOUR.

    And there were EIGHT of them?

    20,000,000 Yen PER HOUR!!!

    And they spent who knows how much "defending" Japan from the North Korean rocket with PAC missiles and gawdknowswhat!

    If Japan throws a hissy fit and reacts like this when China flies a light aircraft over these islands, what's China going to do?

    The next time, it'll be more and heavier aircraft and the whole thing will escalate until Japan is reduced to the poverty level of North Korea.

    All Japan needs to do is to calm down and open real discussions with China.

  • -7

    BertieWooster

    Saul Shimek-san,

    And thus China begins to awaken the Japanese Dragon.

    There never was a Japanese dragon.

    Japanese are much better farmers and fishermen than fighters.

    As fighters they over-react and get hysterical.

    Japan would be much better off being a neutral country.

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