Relatives of victims of 1985 JAL crash climb to mountain site

Wednesday 12th August, 01:31 PM JST

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nutsagain at 07:35 AM JST - 13th August

"but would have been able to secure both and return within the hour, compared to more than 12 hours later" And returned quickly with medics, searchlights and rappelling ropes, winches and other equipment. Pride and bureaucratic dithering underpinned with xenophobic mistrust cost several lives on the day and thereafter. Unbelievable... Unforgivable.
nigelboy at 10:36 AM JST - 13th August

but would have beem able to secure both and return within the hour, compared to more than 12 hours later

My response was some poster indicating that the helicopter spotted some survivors when the crew located the crash site. And if you bothered to read the link I provided you, it mentions the difficulties of hovering in mid air low enough so that rescue crew could be dropped off when there was uncertainty in the terrain coupled with the darkness. The author of the link who is a former JDSF pilot himself is daring the critics to go try it. In addition, if you bothered to read the link I provided you, it also mentions that the so-called assistance offered by the U.S. was their disposal of their emergency medic unit and the UH1-B helicopter ( which was again not equipped with the hoist nor large search light and their "offer" was to transport the injured to the nearby hospital. So contrary to what these other wiki dependent posters stated, Japan did not "refuse" this offer nor was U.S. equipped with the immediate night time rescue operation.
Heda_Madness at 10:45 AM JST - 13th August

There are a lot of assumptions on this thread. So I'll add one, it's safe to assume that those in charge of the rescue assumed that on a plane, full of fuel, that crashed into a mountain and exploded, there would be no survivors. So instead of risking further casualties (given the conditions at the time) it made sense to wait until the safety of morning.

Not such a stretch of the imagination is it?

However, the biggest tragedy is that 520 people died on an aeroplane 24 years ago. An accident that would have been prevented if someone had done their job properly. Something that has nothing to do with the rescue team in Gunma.
nutsagain at 11:54 AM JST - 13th August

nigelboy: As per usual, your condescension is noted, expected. You may have also remembered, if you had bothered to read it. I haven't kept it but the Asahi article in the following weeks after the incident claimed that a rescue was indeed feasible, given that at any crash site, land is cleared by the crashed aircraft, albeit on a steep site but not steep enough to be impossible to attempt. You seem to assert that somehow the plane had disappeared into thick forest. This was not the case and never is when crashes occur. The USAF pilot of the initial helicopter was (as quoted by Ashai) optimistic of a rescue. Your call ...
Heda_Madness at 12:14 PM JST - 13th August

Did he use the word rescue? That would imply that he knew there were survivors wouldn't it?
nigelboy at 12:41 PM JST - 13th August

nutsagain.

Actually, there were tons of articles and books about the so called "good chance "of a rescue. If you bother to read the link I provided, the author disputes some of those claims in those articles including Asahi Journal and Tokyo Shinbun. So I'm not going to argue with you based on some recollection of the article you read 24 years ago.
GJDailleult at 01:00 PM JST - 13th August

The helicopter debate is only part of it. More important is that Japanese mountains all have extensive networks of hiking trails. The only reasonable response was after the crash site was located to immediately drive to the closest point, put a light on the helmet and start hiking. Any other response is just incompetence.
tigris at 01:19 PM JST - 13th August

@ nutsagain

land is cleared by the crashed aircraft

You forgot to mention that the whole hillside was up in flames after the plane full of fuel exploded. So you and others assume, that it was possible to lower rescue personel from a helicopter down to the crash site - at night - into a sea of flames - with smoke obfuscating the steep terrain even further. You might have a look at the news reel taken 14-15h after the crash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sKvgVsbZL4

As I have mentioned in my post from 5:45 it is not helpful to add exaggerations and false statements to such a tragedy. You write:

the reports in ALL Japanese dailies at the time were the victims accounts of seeing American helicopters, then watching them fly away.

They didn't see American helicopters. How could they - at night - through the flames and smoke. Ochiai one of the survivors is quoted to have heard the noise of a helicopter. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1074738-4,00.html

This is not a Hollywood movie with all American heroes and all incompetent Japanese. The rescue was bungled - see above news reel - but most certainly not on the way you suggest. You are invited to prove otherwise, but please provide original statements and links, not colored recollections.
nutsagain at 01:53 PM JST - 13th August

They didn't see American helicopters, you're quite right but as it turned out what did they see? 'American helicopters'... Colored recollections? What's 'colored' about a tragedy? Please do go on? The allusion to Hollywood and colored paintbox is all yours sport, not mine, therefore says something about yourself, not me.

The Asahi Shimbun covered this one from multiple aspects as is their usual style and what became abundantly clear was; the American pilots wanted to give it a shot but were waived off. There were no reports of major fires in the area at all so that's conjecture and the articles were pre internet so without a dig into the archives hard to recall verbatim. what WAS written later were accounts by survivors lamenting the slow response after they'd known the story.
Heda_Madness at 02:10 PM JST - 13th August

There were no reports of major fires in the area at all so that's conjecture

Apart from the American pilot who was flying in the area who said he saw flames on the mountain. The Japanese pilot who said he couldn't land because of the fires. All the smoke and scorched earth on the ground from the tv news.

So apart from all that. There was no fire.

But we've all gone off the point. This article is NOT about the botched response of the Japanese authorities. This IS about the anniversary of the 520 people who were killed as a direct result of one person not doing their job properly.
mindovermatter at 11:07 PM JST - 13th August

Heda_Madness

But we've all gone off the point. This article is NOT about the botched response of the Japanese authorities. This IS about the anniversary of the 520 people who were killed as a direct result of one person not doing their job properly.

Absolutely, the knuckleheads that did that crapy, unauthorized repair are definitely to blame, but the pilots were also partially responsible for making a bad, but controllable situation, critical.

You see, the pilots failed to don oxygen masks, and as a result, were taken by hypoxia, and subsequently let the plane slowly lose altitude and eventually hit a mountain. The official Japanese version also faults the pilots for not using oxygen, after their plane experienced an explosive decompression.

It's SOP for all airlines operating over 10,000 feet.

Also we cannot say with any certainty if the U.S. military helicopter that was on scene within minutes of crash, would have actually been able save anyone, because their to request to help, sent through Japanese authorities WAS DENIED. YES JAPANESE, BIG-PRIDE got in the way.

Sorry to rain on your parade, plenty of blame to go around.
Nessie at 11:16 PM JST - 13th August

The helicopter debate is only part of it. More important is that Japanese mountains all have extensive networks of hiking trails. The only reasonable response was after the crash site was located to immediately drive to the closest point, put a light on the helmet and start hiking. Any other response is just incompetence.

Bingo. And I bet you could have gotten dozens of local oldster hikers familiar with the area to hike up, even at night.
sfjp330 at 03:38 AM JST - 14th August

There was some confusion about who would handle the rescue after the crash. A U.S. Air Force helicoper was the first to reach the crash site, some 20 minutes after the impact. The crew radioed Yokota Air Base to asemble rescue teams and offered to help guide Japanese forces to the site immediately. Japanese government representatives ordered the U.S. crew to return to Yokota Air Base because the Japan JSDF were going to handle the rescue. As a result, JSDF personal spend the night in the village 63km from the wreck, and did not get to the site until the following morning. Medical staff found a number of bodies whose injuries indicated that they had survived the crash but died from shock or exposure while awaiting rescue.
The758 at 07:31 AM JST - 14th August

The pilots however were amazing!

I remember seeing on TV a few years ago, JAL 747 pilots training in Washington. They'd practice touch-and-gos for hours on end. I believe most of their 747 pilots know the aircraft inside and out.
Heda_Madness at 10:22 AM JST - 14th August

but the pilots were also partially responsible for making a bad, but controllable situation, critical.

The plane lost it's tail, it lost hydraulics. It was uncontrollable. Five different pilots were put into the a simulator with the same conditions and not one of them could fly the plane. Whether the pilots should have dropped the oxygen masks is irrelevant, there's been no suggestion of hypoxia until now.

The plane crashed because the pilots couldn't control it.

Incidentally, the 'Japanese big pride' allowed them to invite the NTSB in to help them with their investigation. The NTSB found that it was the incorrect repair by the Boeing engineers that caused the crash.