Subway manner posters attract popular attention

Thursday 09th July, 07:19 AM JST

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Kuroyama at 11:37 AM JST - 12th July

I'll admit I've left umbrellas behind before. I never thought it was a problem! With the number of apparently homeless people Ive seen riding trains, youd THINK those umbrellas would go to good use. It might be a nice idea to think that people wont take something that isnt theirs, but if youve spent more than 20 days in this country youve probably had at least one umbrella already stolen from some umbrella stand. So why not donate unwanted umbrellas to the cause?
taiko666 at 09:52 AM JST - 13th July

Some posters here are saying the Japanese are losing their train manners and are thus becoming more 'western.' I don't agree. In most western countries there seems to be a level of politeness which precludes pushing, rushing, entering the train before its occupants have alighted, hogging seats when needy people are around, and not respecting people's personal space.

On the whole, Japanese 'good manners' are a sham. They seem to be limited to set phrases for every occasion (so you don't have to actually think...), respect for one's in-group, and politeness when there's a chance that you will be held accountable. Other than that, anything goes.
Klein2 at 10:03 AM JST - 13th July

"I like the series by Yorifuji--not too preachy, catchy graphics, and the English is usually spot-on, too."

I agree entirely. This low key approach, repeated as a mantra, must be more effective than blaring, in your face ads, or repeated PA messages. Very slightly humorous, with the butt of the joke being the transgressor. That is how it should be. The messages say, "Hey. Don't be a jerk."

Very Japanese. Can you imagine what these would look like in Korea or London?
thedeath at 10:08 AM JST - 13th July

i wonder about good manner campaign for rush-hours train here. if it is any.

i took a very crowed rush-hours trains in bangkok before. people manner overthere wasn't anywhere near ugly as my current rush-hours trains going to Tokyo every morning!
Klein2 at 10:17 AM JST - 13th July

"griff -- "please do it later" version included the suggestion that the behaviour is acceptable if done at the right time ---

THAT, i agree with you :)"

Gotta disagree here. Once you put PLEASE in here, it takes a smarmy, pseudo-official tone that I have seen too much of. What an uncreative translation of a message that people have seen hundreds of times. The YAROU here gives the impression of your father taking you aside and whispering to you... "Stop being a jerk. Do it later. What are you thinking about?" I think it is excellent. Firm, succinct. Natural. Unofficial. I am one of those people who gets his back up at SHIMASHOU and KYOURYOKU SHITE KUDASAI. Seen too many of those.

I DO agree that the finger up the nose thing could and should be portrayed. It would be a huge hit internationally. Anyone want to photoshop one? Extra points for a great tag line. Rather than DO IT AT HOME, I would suggest the following.

"Find what you are looking for someplace else." betsu no basho de sagasou. or words to that effect.

"No trains in this tunnel."

I am sure someone can come up with a prize winner. And please forget please.
Klein2 at 10:35 AM JST - 13th July

"Only the Japanese can understand an implied meaning of indirect message which is quite confusing to non-Japanese, if it is translated into English."

What? The cartoon says it all. Are people in Tokyo, Japanese or foreign, too dense to understand the cartoon? You are saying that ONLY the Japanese can understand the implied meaning? Whew. Never thought Japan or Japanese was so inscrutable... It struck a chord with me the first time I saw it. The meaning and nuance and humor were crystal clear. Are there really people who don't get it?

And Taiko666, I think you have seen too much of Tokyo. There are jerks everywhere, but I find that the level of common decency and consideration outside of Japan's major cities to be Canadian-level, even down to forming "an orderly queue of one". Being in Tokyo or Osaka puts you cheek to jowl with the unwashed, plain and simple. Anyone who could choose to live in those pits for the express goal of greed or ambition deserves to be with others of their own ilk.
amerijap at 05:08 AM JST - 14th July

It doesn't matter what the cartoon describes. Simply, the Japanese message doesn't make any sense because it causes mis-match with an implied context. What does it suppose to mean 'later,' anyway????
nigelboy at 05:49 AM JST - 14th July

In most western countries there seems to be a level of politeness

This is what happens when an individual hating Japan so much that he/she starts getting delusional.

And getting back to the subject at hand, you noticed that all the headings follow the 〇でやろう format where you insert a single kanji character. And they try to make the poster "in season" by incorporating activities and clothings to coincide with that particular month.
Klein2 at 09:38 AM JST - 14th July

Amerijap... "later" means "not on the train", obvously. The sign is on the train. The people in the picture are obviously on a train. The person viewing the sign is on the train. How could this be misunderstood?

I guess your problem is context, because elementary school kids reading manga in the classroom would be admonished by a teacher with ato de yarou. At dinner time, a little kid would be told by his father to stop playing video games---ato de yarou. I think any Japanese person over the age of (the ato kanji is second grade?) 7 would know exactly what the sign is saying. The message is "hey knock it off.. do that someplace else... at some other appropriate time," given in the tone that a mildly disapproving but friendly person would use.

A foreigner? Who knows? I realize first of all that a lot of people can't take a hint. They might be fixated on the full shopping bags rather than the irritated passengers. But still, it seems to me that the DO IT part of the message refers to the only action being shown in the picture, as DO is the only verb. So showing purchases with bags blocking rights of way seems to be what people should do later in their own homes. How nice that the Japanese powers that be have added PLEASE to the message. I think it rather destroys the nuance, but that's just me, I guess.

I realize that people posting here are not in charge of sign campaigns for public transportation, but I am certain I could not do better, and I would challenge anyone to come up with better campaigns or messages. I guess chesty blondes would attract more attention, but would introduce other problems.
realist at 01:53 PM JST - 14th July

I find these "manners" posters to be partonising in the extreme, and an insult to the intellegence. They fact that they are necessary in Japan speaks volumes about the utter deterioration of Japanese society in general. The myth of Japanese politeness has been exploded years ago. Did it ever exist, at least in Tokyo, and in particular on trains and in stations? The rudeness and bad manners you experience in Tokyo beggars belief most days. I am bemused by some of the posters. Some of them are just plain stupid. Its all about mind control in Japan. Big Brother in Japan not only watches you, but dictates what you should do as well. The nail that sticks up will get smashed down.
amerijap at 09:46 AM JST - 15th July

Klein 2

I guess your problem is context, because elementary school kids reading manga in the classroom would be admonished by a teacher with ato de yarou. At dinner time, a little kid would be told by his father to stop playing video games---ato de yarou. I think any Japanese person over the age of (the ato kanji is second grade?) 7 would know exactly what the sign is saying....

Your examples well illustrate my point that the Japanese message usually does not fit in with a context underlying a particular theme. Are you aware that the message "Ato de yarou" emphasizes the tense (now-after, or present-future) not a space??? Its basic concept is that you have more important thing/task to do right now before you take care of what you do. You can do it when you are free, but NOT NOW!

The poster, on the other hand, emphasizes the space-- which is the public space that is shared among ordinary commuters. It doesn't matter whether you take a seat, stand holding a handrail or a leather strap hanging from the upper rail. It doesn't ask when and where you get off the train or how long you will stay inside, either. What the message suggests is that YOU cannot make yourself home(unpacking your stuff you bought at the shopping mall) as long as you are on the train. You are not supposed to do it RIGHT HERE! It's a big no-no to disturb the public space like that no matter how long you're getting on the train.

To some people, "ato" may imply the timing like "after you get off the train." But that doesn't mean that you just got out of the public space. You still need to wait until you find your own place that won't bother other people when you do what you want.

Again, the Japanese message "Ato de Yarou" mismatches with the context. It is a pictographic description(illustrated in cartoon)that illuminates the message in an ambiguous Japanese text. Because Japanese language often contains ambiguity stemming from a high context culture, it renders English translated "Please do it later," sounds like fish out of water.

The caption in the bottom of the poster shows a significant semantic gap between Japanese and English.
Klein2 at 10:54 AM JST - 15th July

Amerijap.

Your post well illustrates my point.

"a lot of people can't take a hint."
Klein2 at 11:18 AM JST - 15th July

"Because Japanese language often contains ambiguity stemming from a high context culture, it renders English translated "Please do it later," sounds like fish out of water."

This is wonderful English here. You are a translator yourself are you? Can you tell me whether you intended that last bit as a simile or a metaphor? And what does a fish out of water sound like? Sorry to be so clumsy with the riposte and all, but these statements of yours made me grin: "Are you aware that" "shows a significant semantic gap between Japanese and English"

A ha... Please do not presume.

I understood your point before you explained it. You want to say that there is something inherently wrong or misleading about the message, the translation, or the cartoon, or all of them put together, but you are reaching and trying to say it is culture based. You ignore the simple fact that people of all language abilities DO understand these with no problem. You are some kind of academic, probably. You use this vague word SIGNIFICANT. I think that our respective ideas of that word's meaning are quite different.

But let's just let all of that go. As long as you are putting some brain power into this, let's see a payoff.

Amerijap, I would love to see your English language caption. Don't just carp on someone else's shortcomings, defending all of the befuddled foreigners, put your neck out there and let some people hack at it. What would you propose as THE BEST English language caption for this sign?
amerijap at 01:52 AM JST - 16th July

Klein 2: You're not still getting my point, aren't you, sir/madam?

I am not saying that the English caption is not a proper English. It's literally and grammatically correct. I don't find any technical problem within the expression itself. What I suggest is that the English caption is not fixed in the context, due to the technical problems(frame of references) within the original text. You are right in saying that most people can grasp the intension of the message, despite its framing, thanks to its simplicity and the iconic image. But, you should be aware that it is such contextual difference that creates a semantic gap between Japanese and English language.

You should also see the English caption in the bottom of the poster, and compared it with Japanese version(if you're fluent in Japanese.)

I wouldn't think significant as vague word in this respect. The difference between 'time' and 'space' is very critical.

If you want to see my English caption for the poster, please look at my previous postings. You may still have a different opinion, though.
amerijap at 07:36 AM JST - 16th July

“ I bet you’re still being skeptical of issue I address, aren’t you, sir/madam? “

Klein 2: I just want to give you a reminder that I have never used "misunderstanding" in my postings so far, while Japanese words and speeches that are usually indirect and abstract can often lead to misunderstandings of communication, especially if they are directly translated into English. I think it totally depends on the type of message, context, or situation. It's not so difficult to imagine that when you see how ordinary Japanese people write sentences in English.