Taiwanese boat leaves disputed islands after water cannon duel

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  • 1

    Farmboy

    The group said it was on its way to plant a statue of a sea goddess believed by coastal communities in the region to have the power to protect seafarers

    They are putting the goddess in danger, and she won't like it. Also, the Japanese are seafarers, so she may be annoyed AND uncooperative. This is not a smart move in the current climate in any case.

  • 3

    tokyo-star

    Here we go again, just give it up already China/Taiwan!

  • 2

    WilliB

    Playing gullible fools for the mainland communists..... simply unbelievable.

  • -8

    globalwatcher

    Just keep it mind most Taiwanese and Beijin Chinese share the same race "Kan-minzoku". I bet they will stick together against Japan at the end.

  • 1

    Tokiyo

    Don't forget there are also Taiwanese that despise the Chinese, they just don't stoop down to the level of this racket makers.

  • 1

    Virtuoso

    If China's military takes those islands, Taiwan is dead meat. They'll be the jumping off point for China's invasion of the island. The idiots in Taiwan don't realize they need Japan to watch their northern flank.

  • 11

    Tamarama

    If Japan were going to give the islands to anybody, it should probably be the Taiwanese.

    Wouldn't China just love that.

  • 3

    Hansaram

    For the last time just go to the ICJ!

  • 6

    tokyo-star

    @Tamarama, yeh one look at the map and I think you are right. Note that if Japan did give them to Taiwan, however unlikely that is, there won't be a Taiwan the following day.

  • 1

    yosun

    Eventhough sovereignty of the islets has to be suspended for reasons that everyone know, Japanese guaranteed Taiwanese to discuss about sharing fishing right since half year ago but no actual action taken since then. Therefore some small gesture from Taiwan is necessary I guess.

  • -1

    Zenpun

    Sea Goddess can protect the sea for calming unlike Sun Goddess was helpless for Tsunami. She has a power to heal the sickness of fishermen too. Japan should be grateful for her present on that Islets.Not only In Taiwan, Fujian Dialect speaking community world wide worship her.

  • -3

    Tiger_In_The_Hermitage

    Virtuoso@ China is just next door to Taiwan the island is a little further to China than it is to Taiwan so your comment does not make too much geographically.

  • 2

    highball7

    This is getting more convoluted by the day. Just as mom and dad are having a piss match with each other, the mistress is coming along to claim an illegitimate child with a water canon face off.

    You can't buy this kind of story. Its high stake soap opera.

  • 4

    Wonbatto

    Taiwan is in a tough spot vis a vis these territorial disputes as it is not a member state of the UN and much of the world doesn't even formally recognize ROC sovereignty over the island of Taiwan itself (recognition is given to PRC). I'm not sure if they even have standing to present a case for dispute to the ICJ. Even if such a case made it to the ICJ, I am not sure there would be any ability to rule in Taiwan's favor in the dispute without also implicitly recognizing Taiwan/ROC sovereignty as distinct from the PRC.

    I agree with Virtuoso that a final determination of PRC sovereignty over these islands puts Taiwan in an even more precarious position. The islands are closer to Taiwan than the mainland, but placing them firmly under Beijing's control encircles Taiwan and may put a PRC presence closer to airspace and sea lanes that Taiwan uses. It might be in Taiwan's interest that the islands remain under Japanese administration (if not sovereignty), but we'd be assuming that reasoned self-interest might trump nationalist pandering.

  • -1

    anglootaku

    Japan should just put a sign that says 'The Gas in this island belongs to Japan, Chinese and Taiwanese leave'

  • 0

    White_Shinobi

    Lol!!! A watergun fight???? Hahahahaaa... Whats next? Nerf? The paintballs?! Haaahahaha

  • 2

    tmtmsnb

    Taiwanese? Those are Chinese descendants in Taiwan using goddess of seafarers, symbol of native Taiwanese, to decoy the world into believing that it is an issue between Taiwanese and Japan, instead of Chinese and Japan.

  • -3

    Jason Santana

    Wow since when has Taiwan cared about this. Taiwan doesn't even consider themselves part of china nor do they want to be. I think this is a case of mistaken identity. They don't want to be involved in this. Someone is setting them up.

  • -3

    osakajoe

    Give them to Taiwan and problems are solved... or give it to the USA lol (sarcasm)

  • 5

    Cricky

    Right next to that water cannon is a 40mm Automatic cannon, the end of this game is not pretty. Again as always the youth will pay for old men's lobe do. The sooner they start shooting the sooner it's over- pathetic in 2013. Maturity has no place here.

  • 3

    humanrights

    Water Guns, next they are going to throw eggs. Just put a Pachinko center on the Island and everyone will be happy

  • 0

    Frungy

    The Goddess has decided, the islands belong to Japan. If the Goddess wanted the Taiwanese to put her statue there and assert their sovereignty there would have been a taifun or something to help the Taiwanese. It is the will of heaven that the Japanese control those islands.

  • -3

    Luiz /BRAZIL

    Luiz /BRAZIL

    It´s Cristal clear these Islands belongs to Taiwan and China ; Please use google earth images !!

    Sao Paulo City ,Brazil

  • 1

    Serrano

    Maybe they'll have a shelling duel or a missile duel next. Can the Japanese government really afford this?

  • 2

    OssanAmerica

    Luiz /BRAZILJan. 24, 2013 - 09:52PM JST Luiz /BRAZIL It´s Cristal clear these Islands belongs to Taiwan and China ; Please use google earth images !! Sao Paulo City ,Brazil

    You probably think the Faulklands belong to Argentina. Please study world history to appreciate that geographical location alone is not the determining factor.

  • 0

    Fadamor

    All hands! Prepare to repel boarders! MAN YOUR SUPER-SOAKERS®!

  • 2

    maglev101

    Just keep it mind most Taiwanese and Beijin Chinese share the same race "Kan-minzoku". I bet they will stick together against Japan at the end.

    i thought there were only 3 human races - negroid, caucasoid and mongoloid? all east/southeast asians belong to the latter category.

  • 1

    hkitagawa

    It seems like a new kind of sport. Go near the islands and use water cannon to duel each other.

  • -4

    Royblack

    ****No, it belongs to the USA ! --> and no other country !

  • 3

    OssanAmerica

    There are those who feel that these activists are under the influence/control of China. Yet, Taiwan despite continuing it's argument with Japan, adamantly denies that it is "siding" with China as Taiwan has it's own problems with China. Taiwan, unlike China, is not out on a territorial expansion program, nor is it challenging US strategic hegemony in the region upon which Taiwan itself relies for protection from China. Taiwan has made several statements which suggest that an agreement could be worked out if Japan would allow some degree of Taiwanese fishing access to the waters. The problem with a claim by Taiwan is that China considers any part of Taiwan to be China's. Taiwan is also stumped by not being a fully recognized sovereign state and not being a full fledged member of the UN, of which the ICJ is a part. It would be nice if the government and people of Taiwan think hard as to their role in this island issue and whether it is actually to the benefit of Taiwan.

  • 0

    tmtmsnb

    ""Just keep it mind most Taiwanese and Beijin Chinese share the same race "Kan-minzoku". I bet they will stick together against Japan at the end.""

    "i thought there were only 3 human races - negroid, caucasoid and mongoloid? all east/southeast asians belong to the latter category."

    A portion of Taiwanese are pure Midland Chinese who left China Midland at least 1700 years ago, the rest are Malay, or the mix of above. Most Beijing Chinese are Ancient Chinese mixed with 'Wu Hu' , the 5 Mid-eastern or northern barbaric tribes who ruled China for the majority of its history.

  • 3

    Jay Hoffman

    If not careful enough, it might turn into a pillow fight

  • 3

    Wonbatto

    The ethnic makeup of Taiwanese people matters not one wit in this discussion. The ROC government has administrative control over Taiwan and some surrounding islands, and has operated as a de facto independent power for the last 60 years. Taiwan's territorial claims may be rooted in historical Chinese claims going back decades (or centuries), but Taiwan has its own objectives and aspirations here.

    It's unlikely that Taiwan is going to "side" with PRC on this issue, to the extent that the issue has only two sides. An expansionist PRC threatens Taiwan's delicate status quo in a way that no other regional power is threatened.

    As I and others have mentioned, though, I don't see how any formal process can result in recognition of Taiwan's sovereignty over these islands.

  • -4

    Tony Ew

    GO TAIWAN GO!

    Yes, the ultimate sovereignty to the disputed Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands belongs to Taiwan. I posted yesterday a detailed analysis that could be a good Base Line to give Taiwan the basis to claim sovereignty. http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/japan-talk-of-warning-shots-heats-up-china-dispute

    Taiwan HOLDS THE KEY to resolve this dispute and will IMMEDIATELY bring peace to Japan/China/Taiwan. China will be SO HAPPY to just let Taiwan have the islands, you know like blood brothers, you can have it little guy, I am not going to take it away from you! SO COME ON ALREADY TAIWAN. GO AND MAKE A CASE TO PRESENT YOUR CLAIM TO ICJ. Does not matter if Japan or China refuse to go along. Just keep on embarassing them everyday till enternity. Use People Power to get more publicity! A country with weak claim dare not go to ICJ. Taiwan should just expose the truth for all to see!

    I copy here for easy reference:

    Are people too close to the forest to see the trees? I mean everyday in the 41 years since Japan have administration over the islands these days are not sovereign but adminster. So you are inside this cloud everyday day 1 administer day 2 administer day 3 administer and so forth. How come it suddenly transform from administer to sovereign? How can Japan suddenly change lead into gold? You are inside this forest of days and days of administrative duties courtesy of USA and now you take yourself outside of this cloud and suddenly call this whole duration an exercise of sovereignty? Don't think this is going to fly with any judge in the ICJ or the general public.

    Japan cannot say oh, nobody dispute her administration of the islands over all these years, so Japan have rights over it to become sovereign. The fallacy with this argument is that all along there are TWO parties to this situation. US GIVE administrative rights, Japan RECEIVE. It is like a transaction, but it looks like perpetuality. Yet there is NO law to justify sovereignty in this situation, NO PRECEDENT. US itself while getting us all into this mess also DOES NOT say the islands sovereignty belongs to Japan. So in a way I applaud US for being honest for being actually confused about how to handle this even though I tend to think US purposely frame it this way to help Japan. Both elements could be true I think.

    The only situation Japan can say she have sovereignty is in another scenario where there is NO two party setup as noted above. Say Japan found an island like this disputed one and it belongs to China way back but China never protest for many years. Then Japan may have a case here. The difference as I said here is in the Senkaku/Diaoyu case there are two parties involved in a KNOWN activity, one give and one receive. In the latter case, there is ONLY ONE known party ie Japan hanging on to the islands for many years and the general law will favor Japan, so two very different situations.

    Seriously just pick a random sampling of people from all over the world and just ask the way I ask I don't think they will say Japan have the soverignty. I am not saying China have it either. My starting point is the US handover to Japan at end of 1971. That is where this Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands take a life of it's own! Before that it is in deep storage so to speak, locked away by US. Now once it is transferred to Japan for administration it should be viewed as that entity: an administered entity. My point is all the fancy footwork done by both sides to bolster their claims using past histories, past treaties just don't work. It is all intertwined and I think it is going to give ICJ judges a big headache!

    Again I repeat the disputed islands start to take a life of it's own as adminstrated by Japan and it cannot be unilaterally transformed into sovereignty. It is a disingenuous way to exert ownership without proper legal process. If China can proof sovereignty POST 1971 handover, then China will have a better shot at claiming sovereignty. So perhaps with China mapping out the continental sea shelf, China indeed have a better chance at sovereign claim than Japan. No more history, no more treaties to confuse matters. Just take it from Post 1971 as the baseline to make a judgement.

    Now the question may be asked Why use US handover as the starting point and not all treaties and histories before that? The reason is US holds the KEY. US can keep the disputed islands forever and administer herself OR as in this case GIVE BIRTH to ACTIVE Administration by Japan but it is still administration just like if you are born yellow you will be yellow for life, you cannot change to white! If you are not given life by your giver say your parents aka US in this example you have no life! So your frame of reference is Post Birth so to speak Post 1971 not every other events before that which is in storage forever, like you have no memories of your previous life. This discussions/disputes will not have taken place if US just keep the administration to herself but since it was transferred to Japan, 1971 THEN MUST LOGICALLY BE THE BASELINE for all dispute resolutions.

    Notes: courtesy from Redcliff. Under the EEZ and Continental Shelf Prolongation China would put forward that its Continental Shelf Prolongation would extend to the 2700 miles deep of the OKINAWA TROUGH, under such scenario the Senkaku/ Diaoyu Islands fall within the Continental Shelf Prolongation and if the 2700 miles deep Okinawa Trough is consider the dividing line of country territories then China would have the upper hand. Turning around a second argument both China/Taiwan Claiming of the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands as theirs they would put forward the concept of distance closer to the disputed Island as an argument to claim sovereignty. Under this concept of Distance I like to direct you to the ICJ case between Libya and Malta case. The Court concluded that the geological characteristics is immaterial, the relevant factor is the distance. Senkaku/ Diaoyu Islands is 120 Nm from Taiwan(a province of China) and Okinawa is 260 Nm from the disputed Island on top of it the Okinawa Trough is considered the dividing line between two countries. Therefor this is really not an option for Japan.

    In the final analysis I think ALL parties should submit to ICJ Japan, Taiwan and China & I think Taiwan will come out the winner.

    GO TAIWAN GO! WHY ARE YOU STILL SLEEPING?

  • -1

    flowers

    Wonbatto, I believe Taiwan’s “objectives and aspirations” are the same as China’s. Think about the terms “unilateral actions” stated by Clinton. If China and Taiwan combine their forces, the US will have no choice but to stand down. Don’t think that this is not possible as status of Taiwan has no bearing in this case. China has considered the islands as parts of Taiwan from the beginning so there is no point to think about the ideology. Why do you think Taiwan has stepped up their efforts?

  • -2

    Tony Ew

    @OssanAmerica

    The problem with a claim by Taiwan is that China considers any part of Taiwan to be China's. Taiwan is also stumped by not being a fully recognized sovereign state and not being a full fledged member of the UN, of which the ICJ is a part. It would be nice if the government and people of Taiwan think hard as to their role in this island issue and whether it is actually to the benefit of Taiwan.

    According to this map http://chartsbin.com/view/1645 both China and Taiwan have not yet submitted to ICJ jurisdiction. Japan accept ICJ jurisdiction with reservation code word for 'joke, we reserve right not to comply'

    Now we are not legal minds here. I would say if Taiwan apply for ICJ jurisdiction and China do as well AT THE SAME TIME, it would be hard pressed for ICJ to accept China and not Taiwan. It will look very funny on the world stage when a plaintiff is denied right to petition based on murky technicalities. So I think Taiwan application to ICJ will be accepted, does not matter she have no seat in the UN. At worse Taiwan can embarass UN as an incompetent body unwilling to settle this most serious matter affecting war and peace.

    SO WHERE ARE YOU NOW MR MA YING JEOU PRESIDENT OF TAIWAN? ARE YOU SO INCOMPETENT? WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO LOSE BUT FEAR ITSELF?

  • 2

    Kobuta Chan

    “We fired water cannons at each other,” Taiwanese coast guard spokesman Shih Yi-che said of the confrontation.

    It looks like Taiwan boats Water Cannon can not compete with Japanese Coast Guard Water Cannon. So they turned back to Taiwan water. Japanese Government needs to make more powerful Kami Kaze Water Canon for Coast Guard at Senkaku Island.

  • -1

    anglootaku

    Why can't the Chinese, Taiwanese and Koreans leave the islands to Japan, it theirs, the gas reserves underneath, SO BEAT IT!

  • -3

    anglootaku

    Foreign invaders deserve to be shot upon.. not just water tanks..

  • -3

    Tony Ew

    @

    Taiwan is in a tough spot vis a vis these territorial disputes as it is not a member state of the UN and much of the world doesn't even formally recognize ROC sovereignty over the island of Taiwan itself (recognition is given to PRC). I'm not sure if they even have standing to present a case for dispute to the ICJ. Even if such a case made it to the ICJ, I am not sure there would be any ability to rule in Taiwan's favor in the dispute without also implicitly recognizing Taiwan/ROC sovereignty as distinct from the PRC.

    I say to Taiwan 'Cash in your chips' You have far more chance to succeed once you get pass the ICJ acceptance of your application. By rejecting Taiwan application it put UN in a very bad spotlight.Persist for many years till your case is accepted. HEY TAIWAN, YOU GOT NOTHING TO LOSE BUT A LITTLE MONEY SPENT TO APPLY SO WHY NOT GIVE IT A GO?

    One way for Taiwan to have a chance to be accepted by ICJ is for CHINA TO HELP TAIWAN HAVE HER APPLICATION TO ICJ ACCEPTED. I am very certain China have No Problem if the dispute is settled in Taiwan's favor. You know, blood brother thing. Perhaps by using her Veto Power China can use it to block any attempt to reject Taiwan's application. This is extremely extremely important as crossing this hurdle will dramatically improve chance for peace in the region. If the case is ruled in Taiwan's favor we will have peace between Japan China and Taiwan!

    Just for reference, look at the Palestinian application to join more UN bodies.Last year Nov 29 Palestine got upgraded to non member observer state with additional benefits including the rights to bring Israel to the international court for any human rights abuse. See how long and how many times they have tried? They finally succeeded last year. So if this is any guidance, I say TAIWAN GO FOR IT AND STOP BEING A WIMP!

  • 0

    nicorock

    I think Our patrol boat carried out restrictions on the vessel such as blocking its path and discharging water,” it said in a statement.

  • -2

    davidnorell

    I do not ''see'' Japan doing this ''water cannons'' if it was China's coast guard?

  • -3

    Asianhometown

    Anglootau.... Why can't the Japanese politicians accept their country's WWII unconditional terms of surrender and give the islands back to China and Korea. The terms of surrender was to return all land acquired during Japanese imperialist Asain conquest.

  • -3

    Asianhometown

    Agree. Give the islands to Taiwan per Japan's WWII terms of surrender. Taiwan is US A and Japan's strategic partner for US pivot towards Asia policy

  • -1

    sfjp330

    The 1997 China-Japan Fisheries Agreement does show that the Japanese action made a sudden departure from policies that have been in effect for over three decades. The fisheries agreement allows Japanese and Chinese fishermen to operate free of regulation around the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands. So it's not clear why the Japanese coast guard decided it needs to stop the Chinese boat. The agreement made no decision about regulating operations in the area of the sea around the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. The fishing boats of either country can operate without permission from the other and either country has regulatory rights only over its own fishing boats. In the past, the Japanese Coast Guard never captured or indicted a Chinese fishing boat, even if they chased them. The important question is why the Japanese government now acts to anger China? This is the first time Japanese government has taken a aggressive attitude toward China.
    These fisherman were minding their own business like they had done for the last two-three decades from the fishing agreement. The point is they didn't land on the island but were arrested. How often prior to 8/11 did the Japanese Coast Guard arrest Chinese fisherman? Hardly any, don't you think, and why change now?

  • -1

    sfjp330

    Chinese have a short memories. In 1971, an agreed minute to the Okinawa Reversion Treaty defines the boundaries of the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito islands "as designated under" USCAR 27. The latitude and longitude boundaries set forth in the Agreed Minute appear to include the Senkakus (Diaoyus), meaning Japan administers these islands. The latitude and longitute boundaries was acknowledged by the Chinese government and by supporters of China's claims, who testified in the Okinawa Reversion Treaty hearings before the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Chinese should go back to reading the agreed minute that defines the boundries.

  • 3

    OssanAmerica

    Tony EwJan. 25, 2013 - 01:59AM JST @OssanAmerica The problem with a claim by Taiwan is that China considers any part of Taiwan to be China's. Taiwan is also stumped >by not being a fully recognized sovereign state and not being a full fledged member of the UN, of which the ICJ is a >part. It would be nice if the government and people of Taiwan think hard as to their role in this island issue and >whether it is actually to the benefit of Taiwan.

    According to this map http://chartsbin.com/view/1645 both China and Taiwan have not yet submitted to ICJ >jurisdiction. Japan accept ICJ jurisdiction with reservation code word for 'joke, we reserve right not to comply'

    Yes, so when China and Taiwan submit to ICJ jurisdiction at all then let's talk. Japan has already submitted to ICJ jurisdiction, with reservations, same as the United Sates, EU, Australia, etc. Hardly a joke when China and Taiwan have not even submitted at all.

    Now we are not legal minds here. I would say if Taiwan apply for ICJ jurisdiction and China do as well AT THE SAME >TIME, it would be hard pressed for ICJ to accept China and not Taiwan. It will look very funny on the world stage when >a plaintiff is denied right to petition based on murky technicalities.

    Very few people would consider not being a UN member or not being recognized as a sovereign nation to be a "murky technicality". Rather, it's a pretty clear cut obstacle,

    So I think Taiwan application to ICJ will be accepted, does not matter she have no seat in the UN. At worse Taiwan >can embarass UN as an incompetent body unwilling to settle this most serious matter affecting war and peace.

    As you said, "Now we are not legal minds here". I couldn't agree with you more.

  • -3

    Tony Ew

    @OssanAmerica

    Yes, so when China and Taiwan submit to ICJ jurisdiction at all then let's talk. Japan has already submitted to ICJ jurisdiction, with reservations, same as the United Sates, EU, Australia, etc. Hardly a joke when China and Taiwan have not even submitted at all.

    Japan has already submitted to ICJ jurisdiction, with reservations = a big joke. That means wiggle room to get out of a negative outcome. Why even bother to go to ICJ, just for show?

    Japan is afraid, very afraid! http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/24/us-japan-china-islands-un-idUSBRE90N16Z20130124 Excerpts: The commission said consideration of China's claim would be included in the provisional agenda of a meeting of the body due to be held in New York from July 15 to August 30. In a letter to the commission, Japan's U.N. mission argued that China's submission should not be considered. "There is no doubt that the Senkaku Islands are an inherent part of the territory of Japan in light of historical facts and based upon international law. The Senkaku Islands are under the valid control of Japan," it said.

    REALLY? Japan make a mess of this whole issue now the WHOLE WORLD dig in, do research and find out Japan's claim hold no water! Honestly how many people ever hear or care about Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands until Ishihara blow this up?

    Very few people would consider not being a UN member or not being recognized as a sovereign nation to be a "murky technicality". Rather, it's a pretty clear cut obstacle,

    I am not taking about clear cut designation like Palestine is an observer state and not a member. I am not arguing about that kind of technicality. I am arguing whether the bar to even apply for ICJ ruling is so steep that you don't even have a chance to have your application considered. A good example is Taiwan application for WHO which accept Taiwan as a member, in 2009 it obtained a seat as an observer in the World Health Organization’s (WHO) highest decision-making body, the World Health Assembly (WHA). THAT COULD BE USED AS A REFERENCE POINT IN ICJ CONSIDERATIONS. Remember this take many years of effort by Taiwan to get a seat on this table. China was blocking Taiwan application for many years but with policy changes Taiwan finally make it. So same can be said here. What is viewed now as improbable chance for Taiwan to succeed in ICJ application CAN CHANGE OVERNIGHT if the other parties deliberating this matter revise the rules. ALL RULES ARE MAN MADE AND CAN BE BENDED AT WILL! ICJ should use this as guideline to allow Taiwan to file for arbitration AND China should see if she can use her Veto Power to prevent rejection of Taiwan's application.

    As you said, "Now we are not legal minds here". I couldn't agree with you more.

    Reality check for everybody, you me and all posters. Anybody with Ph D credentials in international law? We do our best here to make our points and be humble about it.

    Final clarification: Japan submission to ICJ is for show. China with the Continental Shelf matter mapped out WILL submit to ICJ. Taiwan WILL submit to ICJ If nobody especially Japan gets in the way. GO TAIWAN GO! I HOPE YOU WIN AND PEACE FOR EVERYBODY!

  • 2

    nigelboy

    Lot of misinformation has been presented in these last few days.

    First if all, as to China's recent claim of extending the EEZ continental shelf to the Commission on the Limits of Continental Shelf, the recent ruling on Bangladesh and Myanmar basically means that their request will be rejected, meaning that the policy of maintaining the median line as per UNCLOS will remain as status quo.

    As to Taiwan's ability to file a claim to ICJ, as per charter, a non U.N. Member must first get the approval from the Permanent Members of the Security Council so unless PRC gives a go ahead which I sincerely doubt, the possibility of this happening is very much a long shot.

    As to sfjp330 's misinformation about the sudden activity of JCG completely ignoring the fisheries agreement is again, false. Although the JCG has no jurisdiction if it were conducting fishing activities in the agreed area, these vessels cannot enter territorial waters "12NM" which is what has transpired with the past JCG captures and interrogations.

  • -1

    sfjp330

    I casts doubt on Japan's claim. There were many Meiji period goverment documents from 1885-95. These documents demonstrate that the Meiji government acknowledged Chinese ownership.

    In 1885, the Japanese foreign minister wrote, "Chinese newspapers have been reporting rumors of our intention of occupying islands belonging to China located next to Taiwan.… At this time, if we were to publicly place national markers, this must necessarily invite China's suspicion.…" He then ordered that the matter should "await a more appropriate time" and "should not be made public."

    In 1892, the Okinawa governor wrote, "the opportunity to survey the islands again has not yet arrived," thereby requesting the Navy to dispatch navy ship Kaimon." However, miscommunication and bad weather prevented the survey.

    In 1894, the Home Ministry wrote, "Ever since the islands were investigated by persons dispatched by police agencies of Okinawa back in 1885, there have been no subsequent field surveys conducted." This was the final relevant correspondence prior to the Sino-Japanese War on Aug. 1894.

    In December 1894, after China had suffered some devastating defeats in the war, a secret document from Japan's Home Ministry stated, "the situation today has changed significantly since back then." The Meiji government accordingly incorporated the islands based on a Cabinet decision on Jan. 1895, while the war was still underway. This was never made public and remained unknown to China.

    In 1896, Koga Tatsushiro became the first Japanese native to lease the islands. In his biography, he attributed Japan's possession of the islands to "the gallant military victory of our Imperial forces."

    These documents clearly show that the islands were Chinese territory obtained as spoils of war. The Chinese do not dispute that the islands, along with Taiwan, were part of Japan from 1895 to 1945. But with the conclusion of World War II, the islands should have been restored to their pre-1895 legal status.

  • 0

    nigelboy

    Sfjp330

    You are reading way too much into the documents for these correspondences do make sense when you consider the fact that Qing at that time was very powerful compared to Japan and any territorial expansion, whether it be a small island with no significance would cause undue unnecessary conflict which is what is shown here by Japanese diplomats. Besides, if Japan at that time acknowledged that the islands were indeed owned by Qing, wouldn't it just say so in the first sentence of these correspondences as opposed to beating around the bush? Let's not forget the fact that Koga himself started to opererate fishing activities in the islands around 1880's without any disruption from the Qing government.

  • -3

    Zenpun

    Japan has always debated Senkaku or Diaoyu is part of Ryuku chain. Whey Ryuku was annexed by Japan in 1874, it was not inluded as part of Ryuku. Then Senkaku or Diaoyu became part of Ryuku in 1895.

    Firstly, It is hard to understand tht Senkaku or Diaoyu is part of Ryuku as gap between 1874 to 1895.

    Secondly it is hard to understand that Senkaku or Diaoyu is part of continental shelf. DNA of Okinawa rock and Senkaku rock. That rocks are different as Mars and Venus planet.

    Thirdly US was a witness of Tapie treaty between ROC and Japan in 1951. If that treaty was a castle of sand, why did US singed as witness? Therefore treaties are changealbe whatever US wants for geo policitical interest. US is fair weather friend since singed treaty with native American. Treaties are changle according US interest.

  • -1

    sfjp330

    Zenpun...there was no such name as Senkaku in 1874 or 1895. Japan changed the Chinese island name from Daioyu to Senkaku in 1900, five years after Japan won the war in 1895.

  • -1

    sfjp330

    Zenpun Jan. 25, 2013 - 08:56AM JST Therefore treaties are changealbe whatever US wants for geo policitical interest. US is fair weather friend since singed treaty with native American. Treaties are changle according US interest.

    If that is the case, maybe U.S. should clear up if Japan has soverignty or continue adminstrative rights. Why do Japan keep saying they have sovereignty over the islets? Facts are Japan has only administrative rights that was handed down from the U.S. Okinawa agreement. Nothing more.

  • -1

    sfjp330

    nigelboy Jan. 25, 2013 - 08:53AM JST Let's not forget the fact that Koga himself started to opererate fishing activities in the islands around 1880's without any disruption from the Qing government.

    Do you know anything about 1880's? You can say the same thing to thousands and thousands of fisherman that operated in the 1880's in the East China Seas and South Seas. There are thousands of small islands there. Most of the time, they left these fisherman alone and let them make their living. They were not considered a threat.

  • 0

    tmtmsnb

    "One way for Taiwan to have a chance to be accepted by ICJ is for CHINA TO HELP TAIWAN HAVE HER APPLICATION TO ICJ ACCEPTED. I am very certain China have No Problem if the dispute is settled in Taiwan's favor. You know, blood brother thing. Perhaps by using her Veto Power China can use it to block any attempt to reject Taiwan's application. This is extremely extremely important as crossing this hurdle will dramatically improve chance for peace in the region. If the case is ruled in Taiwan's favor we will have peace between Japan China and Taiwan!"

    You are an Excellent Schemer!! Reminds me of the scene where the brotherly pickpocket passes loots on to the accomplice, raises his hands in air, rotates them, and says, search me! Everyone knows about Taiwan KMT and Communist Chinese's scheme to hand Taiwan to China in the not too remote future.

  • -1

    nigelboy

    "...there was no such name as Senkaku in 1874 or 1895. Japan changed the Chinese island name from Daioyu to Senkaku in 1900, five years after Japan won the war in "

    False. Here are several sources from 1885 naming of the islands (including Uotsuri).

    http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/senkaku/teikokuhanto/1885-09-21ishizawa.html

    The Navy report of 1873 (Taiwan Waterways) also mentions the term "Senkaku" as well as "Uotsuri".

    http://www.geocities.jp/tanaka_kunitaka/senkaku/taiwancoastpilot-1873/

    The above link also direct you to the ORIGINAL SURVEY REPORT.

  • -1

    sfjp330

    mtmsnbJan. 25, 2013 - 09:39AM JST "One way for Taiwan to have a chance to be accepted by ICJ is for CHINA TO HELP TAIWAN HAVE HER APPLICATION TO ICJ ACCEPTED. I am very certain China have No Problem if the dispute is settled in Taiwan's favor.

    Will not happen. China has never accepted the use of the ICJ or any other compulsory dispute settlement for territorial disputes. The same stance applies to the maritime borders.

  • -1

    sfjp330

    Nigelboy....you notice you link only to the propanganda Japanese website, Is this the best you can do? Where is your link to English website regarding 1885 Senkaku?

  • -1

    nigelboy

    Do you know anything about 1880's? You can say the same thing to thousands and thousands of fisherman that operated in the 1880's in the East China Seas and South Seas. There are thousands of small islands there. Most of the time, they left these fisherman alone and let them make their living. They were not considered a threat.

    What I'm talking about is processing harvested materials on the island which is what Koga did in 1880's.

    Nigelboy....you notice you link only to the propanganda Japanese website, Is this the best you can do? Where is your link to English website regarding 1885 Senkaku

    I would definitely not call AN ORIGINAL DOCUMENT a propaganda. It is in fact, THE BEST source among scholars or anyone with common sense. And no. There are no English sources to address your assertion simply because "using Chinese names or the name Senkaku was derived after incorporation" is just false as clearly evidenced by the ORIGINAL DOCUMENT I linked to. I hope this helps.

    ?

  • 0

    Scrote

    Why are the Japanese using water cannons on ships that are outside their claimed territorial waters? Ships have a right to transit freely through the area outside the 12 NM limit without being hindered by Japanese vessels.

  • -2

    Tony Ew

    @tmtmsnb

    You are an Excellent Schemer!! Reminds me of the scene where the brotherly pickpocket passes loots on to the accomplice, raises his hands in air, rotates them, and says, search me! Everyone knows about Taiwan KMT and Communist Chinese's scheme to hand Taiwan to China in the not too remote future

    This response might seems long winded but I want to put everything in context so you know a strong Taiwan going forward is it's own sovereign country and the 'loot' is not going to fall onto China's lap! Besides the Taiwanese citizens will make sure it is not going to happen!

    That is what happen when people's imagination runs amok! I guess you have not being following closely Taiwan China recent people to people's relations. Under Mr Ma's watch, Taiwanese and Mainland Chinese are much more able to make direct travel to each other country without needing to go through Hong Kong. You are welcome to feel the pulse with direct ferry service from China to Taiwan to see how deeply they are intertwined. China cleverly welcome Taiwanese investments, Taiwan desperately needs PRC tourists to boost her tourism industry. This had being going on for at least a couple of years already and even Mr Hsieh from the die hard anti China Democratic Progressive Party went to China recently. Over time China and Taiwan will be FUSED economically, so much so that THERE IS ZERO INCENTIVE for China to attack Taiwan. Why? Same type of people, business interests on both sides! The previous threat to attack Taiwan is only due to fear of Independence action by Taiwanese under Mr Chen Shui-bian. This fear I think is completely gone even though China still have missiles pointing at Taiwan and Taiwan still have arms to counter China as best as she can. This is the backdrop of my answer to your question below.

    OK about your paranoia pick pocket thing and pass the loot to big brother: HOW SILLY YOUR ARGUMENT! I can almost guarantee you Taiwan is FOREVER a sovereign country, NEVER to be under the jurisdiction of China! China is happy enough Taiwan don't declare independence. Happy enough to trade with Taiwan for mutual benefit. It is IMPRACTICAL for China to annex Taiwan and take this Senkaku/Diaoyu Island loot as you imagine. I have being to Taiwan and China at least half a dozen times and I get a good read of what is on their minds! In fact Taiwan will have the most freedom compared with Hongkong or Macau as Taiwan is definitely a sovereign country with full rights of self determination. The bottom line is the Chinese people are very pragmatic people and will not fight unless your action cause them to lose face, just like the very public scheme transaction by the previous Noda government that leave China with no choice but to react aggressively. I hope you understand Chinese mindset better so there is less misunderstanding.

  • -3

    Tony Ew

    @sfjp330

    "One way for Taiwan to have a chance to be accepted by ICJ is for CHINA TO HELP TAIWAN HAVE HER APPLICATION TO ICJ ACCEPTED. I am very certain China have No Problem if the dispute is settled in Taiwan's favor.

    Will not happen. China has never accepted the use of the ICJ or any other compulsory dispute settlement for territorial disputes. The same stance applies to the maritime borders.

    I wrote that one. As I look at the http://chartsbin.com/view/1645 I saw a change of position by one country USA! There you see US withdraw from ICJ arbitration because it suits her fine! So for China changing times calls for new position on ICJ. The fact that China submitted to UN Commission for consideration is proof that she is laying the groundwork for ICJ arbitration.

    Except: In a submission to the U.N. Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf, China claims that the continental shelf in the East China Sea is a natural prolongation of China's land territory and that it includes the disputed islands.

    Under the U.N. convention, a country can extend its 200-nautical-mile economic zone if it can prove that the continental shelf is a natural extension of its land mass. The U.N. commission assesses the scientific validity of claims, but any disputes have to be resolved between states, not by the commission. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/24/us-japan-china-islands-un-idUSBRE90N16Z20130124

    Once this succeed, the next step may well be China quitely helping Taiwan to join in by firstly helping Taiwan have a standing to file for ICJ arbitration using her Veto Power perhaps to overcome any objections. This is because a Taiwanese win in ICJ makes it very hard for Japan to reject the findings being friendly countries to each other. This strategy is really going to put a knife on Japan's neck!

    The reason this all tie in nicely is because the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands is closest to Taiwan and this will give Taiwan the strongest case for sovereignty!

    IMAGINE HOW MUCH GOODWILL CHINA WILL GET FROM TAIWAN FOR THIS SMALL GESTURE! THIS ONE MOVE WILL ERASE YEARS AND YEARS OF HATRED TOWARDS CHINA AND FINALLY THERE WILL BE PEACE IN THE REGION!

  • -3

    Tony Ew

    @Scrote

    Why are the Japanese using water cannons on ships that are outside their claimed territorial waters? Ships have a right to transit freely through the area outside the 12 NM limit without being hindered by Japanese vessels.

    Somebody have to tell the Japanese government PR matters a great deal in the internet age! You have no idea how many of your acts got played and replayed on Youtube generating hatred at your aggressive stance. On one hand Japan tell China to calm down but Japan is not acting out calmly here. In Japan on the streets of Tokyo Japanese are calm but not out here! Not good PR move. You cannot act too aggressively or the world will not have a good opinion about you. Not only that, rightly or wrongly, people may just mistakenly paint all Japanese as unpleasant aggressive people. As for myself I have no problem with Japanese people I know, but this government is just too trigger happy!

  • -1

    Redcliff

    @ sfjt

    You might like to read the Treaty of Taipei signed between ROC and Japan.

    The Treaty stated: "The Japanese renounced all rights to the territories illegally snatched by greed prior to 9th December 1941."

    Article 4 of the Taipei Treaty made very clear of the current disputed islands(Senkaku/Diaoyu Island) formed an integral part of the 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki. This Shimonoseki Treaty was also signed prior to 1941, therefore it must be logically deduced that the Taipei Treaty was to include Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands.

    As a result the sovereignty of the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands must have been reverted to Chinese by virtue of the Taipei Treaty.

  • -1

    Redcliff

    @ sfjt330

    Just follow on my previous comment to you I would like to add a comment to your posting " In 1896, Koga Tasushiro became the 1st Japanese native to lease the islands. In his biography he attributed Japan's possession of the Islands to the gallant military victory of the imperial force.

    Firstly you may be correct to sight Koga Tasushiro as the first Japanese to lease the Island but he does not own the Island .

    I like to direct to a report by the Congress Research Services on this disputed Islands Issue.

    The report highlighted that in 1893- Three years prior to Koga Tasusuhiro leasing of the Island from Japan- The Dowager Empress of China,Cixi, made a grant of the Diaoyu Islands/Senkaku to Sheng Xuanhuai, head of the Imperial Household who frequently collected medical herbs on this Islands. Therefore the Islands legally belongs to the Chinese named Sheng Xuanhuai.

    These medical herbs were to use in treating high blood pressure.

  • 1

    tmtmsnb

    Taiwan KMT and Communist Chinese' united scheme is to render Taiwan into an island of dire poverty so it has no choice but to depend on China for eventual "unification". How to achieve that? Study Taiwan KMT' current policy to know how a government can positively turn an once one of the three tigers of East Asia into a country of utter despair.

  • 0

    Tokiyo

    @Redcliff: I wouldn't mind having it revert to Taiwan. I do have a problem with, and I quote

    reverted to Chinese It would be tragic for Taiwan to be lost to the bully next door. If that were the case, the Senkaku's should stay firmly with Japan.

  • 0

    Wonbatto

    I just can't see the PRC supporting in any way a Taiwan bid for sovereignty of anything at this point. The PRC accepts that most of Taiwan (island/province) is under ROC administration, but that the ROC is no longer a legitimate government. In their view of the world, there is only one entity called "China", and its interests are represented by the PRC in Beijing.

    In this territorial dispute, we're not talking about transferring administration, we're talking about recognizing sovereignty. If historical Chinese claims are recognized, then the PRC has to demand that any territory yielded be placed under PRC administration. To allow ROC claims of sovereignty is to recognize the ROC as a legitimate government, something the PRC will not do.

    So why is Taiwan pushing an issue that they will not win? I don't really know the answer. They have for decades been pushing for some official status at the UN. They will not be recognized as a member state anytime soon, but any recognition of Taiwan as having interests as distinct from PRC will boost Taiwan's status as something higher than a "renegade province" - which is more or less how Beijing views them and expects any other country that maintains diplomatic relations with Beijing to view them.

    Or, perhaps Taiwan is hoping to muddy the waters (so to speak) of territorial claims in a way that at least yields some officially recognized economic use of the disputed area by Taiwan. Or, perhaps Taiwan's politicians are simply jumping on the nationalist bandwagon that seems to be sweeping throughout the region without really thinking through the consequences. They aren't the only ones.

  • 0

    bajhista65

    It's water cannons this time. What's next... just waiting who will fire the first bullet. Good luck to all mankind.

  • -1

    flowers

    Wonbatto, I still don’t see a conflict there. If China and Taiwan get together and agree to share everything with regards to the islands, and the islands are to be part of Taiwan any way which they should be in the first place. There is only one China as you agreed so there is no transfer of sovereignty. So, the sovereignty would not be an issue if they both agree. You don’t see that now we have fishing boats showing up from both China and Taiwan, so if an agreement is in place, they can approach the issue together and this will not be considered “unilateral actions” anymore and besides Taiwan is a US ally. So, how can you attack an ally.

  • -4

    Tony Ew

    Japan and America are praying day and night, day and night that Taiwanese activism don't metastasize. Just a few month campaign of attempts to land on the islands and Japan and US will have a giant headache that such a small pimple can upset public opinions overnight, just like Arab Spring! Through social networks, these smallish boats being hosed by overwhelming Japanese water cannons will make people in Taiwan so riled up they will take to the streets and leave Japan in a very bad position indeed. How to treat a former colony? Cannot come down too hard as we are really friends but a sense of decency and fairness trump superficial friendship. For this reason a big PR campaign by these small boats perhaps a dozen more times will put Japan and US into a corner they cannot get out from! People power from only a few hundred fishermen and activists from Taiwan. I think Japan is more afraid of Taiwan activism at this stage than big bad China as the PR will be really bad for Japan. Isn't that amazing?

  • 1

    JoeBigs

    "sfjp330Jan. 25, 2013 - 09:06AM JST Zenpun...there was no such name as Senkaku in 1874 or 1895. Japan changed the Chinese island name from Daioyu to Senkaku in 1900, five years after Japan won the war in 1895."

    The key line is,"the Qing Dysnasty lost" they started the war with their riots and Japan ended it by destroying the so called mightiest fleet in Asia.

    Also the only reason that the PRC and the ROC treat the islands as long lost heroes is because natural resources were discovered there.

    Neither of them could careless about those rocks, it's all about the natural resources.

  • 0

    Yoitsu Kamijo

    Tony ew u talk too much, Taiwan is not even a country for Christ`sake, what give u guys the right to try take over other country's land when u guys can secure a recognized sovereignty of your own?

    • Moderator

      Please do not write "you" as "u."

  • 0

    Yoitsu Kamijo

    Can`t*

  • -1

    Yoitsu Kamijo

    Another thing, the Taiwanese government, after all, is merely a continuation of a rogue government established by the Chinese nationalist party, which was defeated by the Chinese communist party and forced to fled to Taiwan.Thus, Taiwan is never a legitimate sovereignty and would and should never be considered an independent country.

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