IOC asks for investigation of China's gymnasts
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77 Comments
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0
Xennon
Well well well.
Most interesting new information eh.
I was giving China the benefit of the doubt but now.... hmmmmm.
I bet the IOC won't do much one way or the other though.
0
techall
I remeber a few Olympics back the women swimmers and divers were saying that from evidence they saw in the locker rooms several Chinese divers had not even reached puberty yet.
0
Xennon
And further with this. Are there tapes of this interview? I would assume there probably are. What will the IOC do about this?
And how stupid must you be to say that you basically cheated in the Olympics!?
0
boobug
ESPN is reporting that the IOC was not really interested in investigating this story, until ?
"In light of new information"
This could open a real can of worms. The Chinese could forfeit as many as 6 womens medals here, a bunch of them gold. Those would go to the Americans who finished second in many events. Looks like the medal standings are about to get overhauled.
0
harkins
Typical stupidity of a sport governing body and the IOC. This issue was well publicised before the games started and should have been properly resolved then. I feel for all the gymnasts now. I don’t suppose that any of the Chinese gymnasts had a great deal of say in the matter and having a medal taken away must be worse than being prevented from competing in the first place. And for the American girls, I’d expect that there would be something of a hollow feeling to winning a gold medal several weeks after the event finished. Shame on the IOC and FIG!
0
Blue_Tiger
Could tyhis be the big embarrassment that leaves a darkening smudge on the Beijing Olympics? Or will the IOC receive a "donation" from some Red Chinese interests aplauding the IOC's "hard 'work'" during these Olympics, allowng for this incident to be swept under the rug and forgotten? It remains to be seen....
If the PRC's gymnasts are underage, their medals ougth to be stripped from them, and given to the Silver Medalists. If the IOC will do it for drugging up, they should do it for underage participation, which is agaisnt the rules...
0
boobug
Back off bebert ! You are way out of line here. Cheating is cheating. Whether you are doping or using underage contestants the rules are there to ensure fairness. I can imagine the outroar if this was an American kid under investigation. Maybe you could give a better viewpoint than this,
"Sometimes you've gotta be a man and just let the silly sh*t slide."
Cause as it stands you are about to take the gold for "rubbish post of the year" ! Congratulations (?)
0
USNinJapan2
If you believe that He Kexin is a day over 15 I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn...
0
meanmutha
Impossible.. sadly... they can cover up easy... 40 billion buck investment in a country of a proud 1.3 billion... never.. as much as I know the cradle was rocked and they cheated. Hard proof sometimes sucks. I have been on this one for the last week.. Up in arms!
Bust them IOC, plz!!!
0
skipthesong
I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.." The Williamsburg Bridge had been up for sale once.
Anyway, how is underage girls cheating? I don't get it.
This is the same crap I heard when that one Canadian Snowboard lost his gold in Nagano because they found weed in his system - weed is no way a sports enhancement.
Underage is considered cheating because they say they don't want young girls getting hurt - must be an American insisted rule; you can't even play tag any more.
0
ExPrinceska
The alleged proof that the gymnast is 14 was taken by hacking chinese government computer systems. no court should accept a proof that was illegally produces by vicious internet practices.
0
Xennon
ExPrinceska,
Where did you get that hacker information?
I would like to read up on it.
Thanks in advance.
0
ExPrinceska
I read it on yahoo. If a computer security expert is involved I think it won't be so legal how he obtained information.
0
Xennon
Exprinceska,
Thanks for the info. I think perhaps calling a security expert a hacker is pushing it a bit far though, eh?
I can see where you are coming from but I still am not sure if that is disproof enough to sway me.
0
USNinJapan2
skip
In women's gymnastics flexibility is key and flexibility decreases with age. In men's it's not so much flexibility but strength, which unlike flexibility peaks later. That's why competitive female gymnasts are on average much younger than their male counterparts. The reason(s) for the restriction isn't the issue here; the age restriction is set at 16 for female Olympic competitors so fielding younger ostensibly more flexible gymnasts gives you an unfair advantage over everyone else that has fielded regulation members. I think most people would call that cheating, if it's true...
0
USNinJapan2
Pukey2
Guess you can snipe all you want at other countries when yours isn't a medal contender?
0
Triple888
Obviously backed by the US in an attempt to degrade China of it's gold medals on the run up to the end of the Olympics! The gymnasts don't look under aged to me. I've seen younger looking 18 year olds. Even if they are under aged, they beat their older counterparts fair and square.
0
GenkiDesuKa
Here is the "hacker"'s info. He didn't break into websites, just did a google and baidu search.
http://strydehax.blogspot.com/2008/08/hack-olympics.html
He also links to a blog in Chinese with other evidence
http://www.wretch.cc/blog/billypan101/11740056
0
ExPrinceska
so in the USA they need computer security experts to do google searches? hahahaha
0
smithinjapan
USNinjapan: "Guess you can snipe all you want at other countries when yours isn't a medal contender?"
Actually, your comment, meant to be derisory, is 100% on the mark. You see, when your country is not in contention, you are free from bias, from subjectivity, and from unfairness (unless you're out of contention via a bitter loss). Canada has sucked so bad until the second half of this Olympics that I was free to cheer on whomever I chose, without it being my country, and therefore without the bias that comes with it.
Anyway, the majority of complaints against Chinese gymnasts comes from the American coaches, who pretended to be upset about the Chinese supposedly using young women, but even admitted later that, in reality, they were simply sore that the Chinese could get away with it while they could not.
If you want to call it wrong, do so... but call it wrong because it's wrong, not because it's wrong you can't do wrong too.
0
otis123
Why has this become a pro/anti-America issue, rather than a pro/anti-breaking-rules issue?
0
USNinJapan2
smithinjapan
I wholeheartedly agree about third person/nation objectivity, but I don't think Pukey2's comments below, to which I was responding, has anything to do with objectivity or fairness. I wouldn't have said anything if he was from China. I still would love to know what the medal tally is for his country, whatever that is...
0
sonnoujoui
Ridiculous. Better be carefull if USA USA wont loose 7 gold if they can proove Phelp was doped. Oh, and lets assume for a moment that the chinese girl was not 16 yet. Then she was still better than the american girl. The best athlete deserves the medal no matter what age she is. If I were an athlete, I wouldnt be happy to win the gold medal knowing I am not the best but somebody else who was just a bit "too young".
Before ppl got upset about the girl that was not pretty enough to sing in the opening ceremony and worrying about her feelings. Now you want to take away the gold medal of a girl that might have been too young though she was best. What about her feelings?
Oh, and by the way - China is on top of every medal list because it is the gold medals that count first. It is the offical IOC ranking and every other country counts that way. So please USA, stop pretending that you are on top, it's China that had the best athletes in this olympics.
0
smithinjapan
USNinJapan2: Didn't notice you were responding as such, and so apologize for any harsh criticism. Anyway, as to Pukey's country's 'medal count' and you loving to know what it is, why does that matter? Wouldn't knowing his country's medal count make his argument less objective? Isn't that what we're striving for? The worst of the worst on this site try to take a person's background as a reason to undermine their 'argument', like the person arguing were John McCain -- nothing valid to say themselves, only trying to argue their opponent's background as a result to dismiss an opinion contrary to their own. Who cares where Pukey is from? Hell, maybe he/she's American and simply feels he/she wants to bash his/her own country's medal count. Is that so hard to believe?
Again, apologies for bashing you back there, but I still feel I said nothing out of reason. I see where you're coming from in reaction to your comment, and hence I felt the need for my post to tone yours down a bit.
Okay, enough of this.
0
otis123
Who cares about any medal counts? It's unsportsman-like. Originally, the IOC banned all medal tallies, as the games shouldn't devolve into a meat stick measuring contest.
I think the girls should be investigated, as proving their ages (either way) would help clear the clouds over this event. I could do without the whining from the Karolyis, however.
0
USNinJapan2
sonnoujoui
Unfortunately for you neither the IOC nor the FIG share your opinion. Some sports have age limitations. Like it or not that's reality. The issue at hand isn't whether the age limitations/rules are right or wrong; it's whether they were broken by China. Back on topic please...
0
OssanULTRA
I hope the IOC has the balls to actually push this investigation through all the way. And if the charges are proven correct, then the gold medals should be taken away. Cheating is cheating. Lots of athletes haven been disqualified for doping. No difference.
0
smithinjapan
Pukey: not bashing you at all; in fact, I was defending you to an extent (especially about it not mattering where you are from in regards to your arguments). I agree with you as well, to an extent. Most people bitter about and insisting it's the overall medal tally and not the colour (and vice-versa, for that matter) are probably those whose countries would benefit from such a count, but hey, fortunately it's the golds that matter most, and not the mere number of medals.
Ossan: no difference between doping and age? hate to break yet another bubble of yours (along with the one where the Koreans still lead Japan in medals of all colour, aside from the bronze), but there's a HUGE difference between a doping offense and using underagers. An offense is an offense, I agree with you on that, but to pretend that using a 13 year old is the same as pumping a 16 year old up with steroids is ludicrous! As one poster thought to bring up above, it's like when the Canadian snowboarder was found to have smoked marijuana before his gold medal performance; when questioned about it, one had to only ask, "so... using a known depressant is considered performance enhancing, how?"
My point... they are not at all the same.
0
smithinjapan
USNinJapan: Again, Pukey, or anyone else's, country of origin should not matter in regards to their comments. The only reason why people want to know is so the banned people of yester-year, like Pasqi, can try to argue against them based on where they are from. You yourself say, "...your remarks are completely hollow if you're not from China or the US." So why can't you just look at the arguments, and not where he/she is from? It's definitely tough with the Olympics, but hey.
0
otis123
Smithinjapan: I agree that doping is a whole different level of offense than using underaged competitors.
However, if the gymnasts are shown to be underage, the Chinese government's complicity in the scandal would be damning. As far as I know, the Canadian government did not forge documents trying to prove that their snowboarder didn't smoke pot.
Either way, it is best to clear this up. If the girls are not underage, then they can celebrate in peace.
0
OssanULTRA
"Ossan: no difference between doping and age? hate to break yet another >bubble of yours (along with the one where the Koreans still lead Japan >in medals of all colour, aside from the bronze), but there's a HUGE >difference between a doping offense and using underagers. An offense is >an offense, I agree with you on that,"
smith
Well that's about as far as you need to agree or disagree. If it's a violation of IOC rules then it's a violation of IOC rules. End of discussion.
Oh and I see that SKorea has a HUGE 3 medal lead on Japan. Both countries having 25-30 medals? I have no idea what gets you so excited over such numbers. My country currently has 102 but you don't hear me chest beating about it, do you?
Well I 'm sure the IOC will consider the matter very carefully and maybe just maybe rewrite all the rules based on the letter they received from you containing your opinion. As you've admitted, it's breaking the rules, Period.
0
Pukey2
smithinjapan:
The Olympics have brought out the best AND THE WORST of many people. Frankly, it's gone to the point where there is no point in responding to some posters. This has gone far beyond the under-age problem (for the record, I have little faith in the Chinese authorities). It has progressed onto accusations from posters that all judges have been bribed by the Chinese or that 'judged' events are not worthy of the Olympics (while being perfectly acceptable in Athens, strangely enough). The under-age accusations need to be looked at, and actions have to be taken if needed, but then to suggest that all athletes from the same country are not worthy just goes too far, in my book.
Sure, the stuff about the fake fireworks and lip-synching was embarassing, but that's just something to laugh about. I mean, a cute face and miming? Isn't that Hollywood stuff (remember Ashlee Simpson and her hoe down?) This had nothing to do with the athletes, and attacking the honest, hard-working athletes just makes people sound petty-minded.
0
ProudKoreanGuy
Let's see... asking the Chinese Gymnastics Federation to investigate... isn't that somewhat like asking a fox to look for the missing chicken in a henhouse?
0
Good_Jorb
It is pretty lame isn't, almost as lame as people who come to claim that China cheated, VIA baised judging and therefore China shouldn't have as many medal's as it does and so forth and so on. Same thing right? Why is bad to question American standings, but ok to question China's standings?
It all reeks of hypocritic-think(ing) to me.
0
boobug
"Why is bad to question American standings, but ok to question China's standings?"
Um, because it's the "Chinese" that brought up the issue of underage competitors to begin with.. maybe ? Some of you seem grossly misinformed. Go do a little homework then come back with an educated opinion. Some of us are tiring of your ignorance.
0
undecidedbout08
Nations don't matter.
Another Olympics with a hundred-plus medal haul for the team carrying the Stars and Stripes?
! ! ! Canada's Southern Neighbor-Canada's Southern Neighbor-Canada's Southern Neighbor ! ! !
0
adaydream
This needs to be settled. < :-)
0
Good_Jorb
Ergh, who's some of us? You mean yourself right.
And which nation has brought up the issue of baised judging to IOC? Perhaps, no nation has brought up the issue. So was is it, like I asked before, do you come here and claim China's medal count should be lower becuase of baised judges(bad mouth China) but pukey can't comment(bad mouth)on America's proformance.
I could say that China has Baised judges, Japan got most of it's medal by pure luck, but I wouldn't, just as well as I could say Phelps was doped, or Bolt is part robot but I wouldn't becuase how rude is that to the athletes.
Yes, maybe I should go do a little homework then come back with an educated opinion. So I can try to win an agrument with petty insults and naming calling, thanks but no thanks.
0
boobug
"I could say that China has Baised judges, Japan got most of it's medal by pure luck, but I wouldn't"
Ummm, you just did ! Welcome to the hyperbole that is the internet.
0
Good_Jorb
A nice relevant anecdotal observation, but a poor question dodge.
0
Azrael
I have seen no proof on paper, but miss He (one of the Chinese gymnasts) looks like a preteen girl. She could easily be 14 years old, among Asian girls. The lipsing incident sadly gives way to further suspicions. Allegedly there are cached Internet websites (copies of websites that remain stored as references in many internet search sites, which the admin of the original site cannot delete or cannot even know about how many copies exist) in Chinese about the age of miss He in previous contests, which were deleted but whose copies remain on the internet. That is possible. The simple fact that this is possible, adding the childish looks of He and the precedent of lipsing give way to suspicion. That is undeniable. What is questionable is, if such facts may be accepted as truth. The stain will remain, regardless if there was cheating about He's age or not.
The listings found by Associated Press (Earlier this month, the AP found registration lists previously posted on the Web site of the General Administration of Sport of China that showed both He and Yang were too young to compete) apparently were found through the cached copies I have described, which where impossible to delete when removed from the Web site of the General Administration of Sport of China. Nothing is ever fully deleted, regarding digital documents. However none of the parties have presented a strong, official case.
Given the usual history of denial to save face inherent to cultures such as Chinese and Japanese, it is unlikely that even confronted with proof the Chinese officials would backpedal. Besides, it would be a great shame for China to be found cheating like this on the Olympics and worse, while being the host country. Given this, I don't think there is a real possibility of cooperation in investigation of any sort, because even if the Chinese officials are correct, the simple stain of suspicion is too much to bear for China at present. Due to present economic and geopolitical reasons, I do not think the IOC would be officially backed to pursue an in-depth investigation.
To summarize, it is unlikely that this case will be solved, and the shadow of suspicion will remain on He and the others for the rest of their lives.
0
projectaw11
CHINA is full of lies and deceit.
0
sonnoujoui
And guess why it was raised 2 times from 14 to 16? Because of chinese dominance. Some western nations like USA still wanted to have a chance - but they failed even to win with the new rules. So now they are spreading rumours instead of just admitting the chinese are better.
0
bebert
It's time for the Americans to let go and move on. Their blowhard Romanian coach never had a problem with the judging or the age of the Chinese when his two princesses did well, but when they didn't get gold in an event, every judge and competitor at the event was declared suspect. Maybe its an Eastern European thing, but it really looks like poor sportsmanship in American eyes. Shawn Johnson and Nastia Luikin did quite well, but I guess they were expected to sweep the event and that's where the sour grapes come in. If they truly were the greatest gymnists in the world, then the age of their competitors shouldn't matter. What is the objective here, to strip some of the Chinese athletes, like Kexin HE of their gold medals and re-award them to the Americans? Bad move.
0
USNinJapan2
soonoujoui
And does that change the fact that China would be in gross violation of established IOC/FIG rules, rules they agreed to abide by long ago, if these girls turn out to have actually been under age? Absolutely not. Everything else you've brought up in your posts is just flak.
0
motytrah
Yes, it's a western conspiracy against China. rolls eyes China has a history of doing this. China's own Yang Yun, a double bronze medalist in Sydney, said during an interview aired on state broadcaster China Central Television that she was 14 during the 2000 Games. If China losses medals it has no one to blame but themselves.
0
sonnoujoui
According to her passport the girl is 16 and her win is legal. Everything else is just envy.
0
ExPrinceska
IOC closed the case, they said there is no prrof that the Chinese gymnasts are under 14.
0
USNinJapan2
sonnoujoui
Oh no I'm sure the passport is genuine and valid, I mean, it was issued by the Chinese government after all. roll eyes
Seriously, do you see absolutely nothing suspicious about all this? All just pure coincidence?
0
boobug
I've seen forensic researchers on the tele going on and on about how the facial structures, angles, and eye line gaps clearly indicate many of the chinese girls are no-where near 16 years of age, "absolutely impossible", they say. Again these are seasoned vets who dig up decomposing or partially mutilated bodies and determine ages through a variety of measurements. I tend to think they know what they're talking about.
0
badge123
"The FIG has said repeatedly that a passport is the “accepted proof of a gymnast’s eligibility,” and that China’s gymnasts have presented ones that show they are age eligible. The IOC also checked the girls’ passports and deemed them valid."
Of course the passports are valid, they were printed by the PRC, they could write anything inside them.
I find it interesting that her birthrate changes from time to time on various registration documents on events prior to the Olympics.
The Chinese are going at this in two points, saying the Passport is valid and saying its racists because asians tend to have smaller frames then westerners. Well I don't doubt that second part, the only part I'm questioning is why Birthdate changes a lot on registration documents, even if you didn't have a photograph or knew what someone looked like, or even what country they were from, but they had different listed Birthdays for competitions competed in prior to the Olympics, and right before the Olympics birthdate was changed again to an earlier one, wouldn't that raise your eyebrow, at least investigate to see what the discrepancy in why the past listed dates were either right or incorrect.
0
DS
The Chinese "women's" team were all kids, just little girls. Seriously, how many 16 year old girls do YOU know that are 142cm tall and weigh 32kg? They must be on some kind of drug to delay the onset of puberty, or they are overtraining so much that their hormonal balance is totally screwed up.
IMHO, the age should be raised to 20. These little children are destroying their bodies just for a gold medal. It should be stopped, and those who abuse children this way need to be banned from competition.
0
motytrah
The Chinese coaches claim Japan's team is just as small as his.
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USNinJapan2
motytrah
Evidently the Chinese coach needs glasses...
0
DS
J-team are 34,37,38,38,38,39 kg, and 140,145, 147, 149, 149, 150 cm.
c-team are 31,32,33,35,36,43 kg, and 137, 140, 142, 145, 150, 152 cm.
No surprise that the ChiComs resorted to cheating. It's a way of life to do so in order to fulfill quotas and curry favor with the Party.
0
DS
Oh, and for comparison, the US team is;
41,45, 47, 50, 53, 54kg, and 145,150,152, 155, 160, 160 cm tall.
0
seansezso
Rules are great and everything, but its necessary to have rules that are workable, enforceable and that make sense. This 16 year old age requirement meets none of those tests for this sport.
Gymnastics is a seriously dangerous sport, so I understand the desire to make sure the athletes are mature enough to make the decision to participate. But all this rule does is keep the youngsters from participating in the Olympics. It will not prevent them from training at the young ages they already do, and that is where most of the serious injuries occur anyway. The age at which training starts simply cannot be increased without lowering the level of the sport and actually making it more dangerous for gymnasts as the younger one starts the more proficient they can become. So that won't be done no matter what age rules these competitions have.
Also, consider the fact that puberty seriously affects a female gymnast's performance for the worse. A few years after 16 and they are finished. That means that they will usually get one, and only one shot at the gold with this rule! Its silly. These girls train for most of their lives, and you give them only one shot! Of course countries are going to break this rule! It used to be the girls had two or three good shots and could compete during their peak, which was before 16. You cannot try to just take that away and expect perfect compliance.
The age rule only encourages cheating and disrespect for the rules, while providing next to nothing that is positive. It should be abolished, at least for this sport.
0
LFRAgain
Several points and observations:
1) Someone said earlier that medal tallies shouldn't count and that this isn't a "meat-stick" measuring competition. Well, perhaps totals shouldn't count, but they do and the length of one's "meat-stick" is virtually all that is being measured in these or any past Olympics. Competing with rivals is hard-wired into our DNA and sports events are simply a less violent and fatal transference of our desire to beat the crap out of each other placed onto a safer, better-regulated stage where the winners can say, "See? My meat-stick IS bigger!" Not pretty. Not entirely encouraging. But reality all the same. I'll take it over full-fledged warfare any day of the week though. Which is why obeying the rules matters.
2) Age rules for international sports should be abolished? There are reasons age rules are in place, the most obvious being of course the harm that can come to a child’s physical development when pressed to perform in competitions of this caliber. It’s well-documented that gymnastics in particular take a particularly hard toll on an athlete’s body. Ask former gymnasts how their bodies feel after years of training, and they’ll tell you “Not so good.” As one poster pointed out, yes, puberty affects (female) gymnasts for the worst, thus forcing them out of the sport at an age generally earlier than their peers in other sports. And that’s the point: The training necessary to compete at an international level is hard on athletes.
Which leads to another reason the age limits have value. Age limits serve to eliminate, or at least mitigate, the potential that children and the obvious advantages of their youth (greater stamina, flexibility, ability to recover from injury) will be exploited for something so vacuous as national pride. Monopolizing a child’s youth for national glory is morally reprehensible, at least in my eyes. If you want to give your 13 and 14-year olds an opportunity to compete, then send them to the JUNIOR Olympics. If they’re as good as their coaches claim, then they can prove their mettle in the regular Olympics - when they turn 16.
Let’s look at the age rules from another perspective: Should it be acceptable for a 20-year old athlete with greater physical strength and experience to play in under-12 youth-league football simply because he has a chance to bring his team to victory?
3) “According to her passport the girl is 16 and her win is legal. Everything else is just envy.” If only life were as simple to rearrange as issuing a passport. If the passports were all that existed with regards to proof of these girl’s ages, then yes, that might be a valid point. But they aren’t. Enough evidence exists in the form of official and unofficial documentation in Chinese media to place the age of the girls in question under suspicion. This places the burden of explanation firmly on China’s shoulders. They owe it to the sport to set things right, and simply declaring (as Chinese officials did) that all other reports regarding the girls’ ages were inaccurate and that the newly issued passports are the “truly” accurate documents is, well, immature, to say the least.
4) “Maybe its an Eastern European thing, but it really looks like poor sportsmanship in American eyes.” Umm... One, last I checked, Eastern Europe was in, err, Europe. Two, America is not in Eastern Europe. Not by a long shot (please pause for the collective sigh of relief from our European friends here). So, clearly, your point is a bit muddled here. Three, the American coach didn’t bring the issue up first. The New York Times did.
5) This squabbling over whether age violations are more or less egregious than drug violations avoids the simple fact that rules are rules. The rules say no athletes under 16. If you don't like the rule, then work to change it. Until then, it stands to reason that they rules that supposedly rob Chinese 14-years olds of a chance at gold equally robs 14-year old athletes of ALL nations. Everyone is operating under the same restrictions. That’s the intrinsic meaning behind fair. Which goes back to my observations regarding tossing out age limits. Rules are there to level the playing field. It’s why I don’t have a problem with the new Speedo high-tech swimsuits. All athletes from all nations wear them, so no one has an appreciable advantage in competition. If all athletes are working from the same page, then there’s less chance for sour grapes when winners and losers are sorted out.
6) There is enough evidence to suggest that three out of six on the Chinese women’s team are indeed underage. Simply saying "No there isn't" doesn't erase the fact that several sources, including offical Chinese reports regarding the athletes in question at past domestic competitions, place the girls' ages at anywhere from 1 to 3 years younger than they supposedly are now. The evidence is there. So, if China is indeed breaking the rules, then it should not benefit from it. I feel sorry for the athletes in this case because they're really just along for the ride in something that is largely a politics-driven debate.
Regardless, the burden of proof falls on the Chinese to explain the discrepancies. Of course, they’ve defaulted to “Passport Trumps All” as a defense, which isn't very compelling, obviously, but that’s the nature of proving something like this in a nation where athletes are supported and trained 100% by the sitting government. This is why it was so hard to catch the Eastern Germans for doping in the 80s. It’s why it’s so hard to pin anything on China now. While drug use can be tested, the difference in age of China's female gymnasts isn’t so easily determined, especially when calls for specific medical exams is tantamount to saying, "We just don't believe you." Not very sporting.
Taking into consideration the faked opening ceremony fireworks display, the lip-synching girl debacle (which has regular Chinese citizens more upset than the rest of the world, it would seem), and the amount of trouble the Chinese government has put the citizens of Beijing through (forced relocations, to name a few things) to project the illusion that China is “just like the West” for these Games, all that may come of the 2008 Olympics are snickers, accompanied by a nudges and a wink whenever China’s acquired medals are mentioned. Which is kind of sad to me. A lot of wasted potential on all sides.
Personally, I don’t think it’ll ever be resolved to anyone’s satisfaction. In the end, it’ll just add to the growing list of why the Olympics are losing their luster and becoming exclusively a huge corporate-sponsored “meat-stick” contest.
0
HonestDictator
The other problem with this issue is, if China gets away with it, they'll think they can continuously cheat every Olympics.
I'm certainly not envious of China, in fact I want them to do well HONESTLY, not trying to pull the wool over everyone in the worlds eyes. If there was no question that China was abiding by the IOC rules 100% then we wouldn't care at all. But if the PRC is down to the point where they feel that they have to get involved illegally with their olympic athelites to make themeselves feel or appear to be successful is just sickening not only on a moral standpoint, but with a desire to become a "world-leader".
For China it is all about saving face, and I hope that if they are cheating, which most evidence posted so far has not been in China's honor, then they need this black eye for their coming out party so hopefully the Chinese government learns that they can fool their own people most of the time, but when you try to fool the rest of the world, we just won't tolerate your bs.
Check to see when the passport was issued. You'll find it was pretty gosh darned recent as in a few months before the Olypmics guys. China is full of deception and hardly anybody trusts them like a fox watching the hen house.
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Nessie
The diapers should've been the tipoff.
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chardk1
It is a problem because even though other athletes cheat, usually the government doesn't aid and abet the cheating.
China is "outraged" that people question the authenticity of the girls' passports even though the state-run news agency has been reporting them as being 13 and 14 as recently as last year? They can deny the reports but seriously, the fuss exists because there is plenty of grounds for suspicion.
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Nessie
She answered, "Nyah nyah na nyah nyah. I want my mommie."
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Nessie
If they have passports, they most likely have competed overseas. If so, can't the immigration departments in the countries where they competed verify the ages? If there were passport switcheroos, this might suss them out.
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Nessie
The most pathetic thing is that China didn't need to cheat, and it would have got more respect for playing fair than for winning.
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seansezso
Are you kidding? China put forth their best and in at least one competition it took a wonky tie breaker for them to beat out Nastiya. They most certainly did have to have the team they put together to get those medals.
The IOC needs to realize this age restriction is unfair to the gymnasts. It throws their best years down the toilet.
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seansezso
LFRAgain wrote:
Wrong. Its not the competitions. Its the training. The rule will not change the ages that training begins in this sport. Therefore, it is pointless.
You are glossing over the fact that the under 12 league was not meant to be the pinnacle of achievement.
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Xennon
I'm glad to see the conversation has come back on topic instead of a USA bashfest.
Those here who still continue to say since the passport said He is 16 then it must be true need to open their eyes...
In 2000 Yang Yun presented the IOC with my passport saying she was 16 and she got to compete. Later, after the Olympics, she even admitted in an interview that she was in fact 14 at the time. Ya.... China's passport age verification test is reliable....
And with the IOC closing the case about 12 hours after it was open??? Wonderfully thorough "investigation" guys.
Before half of you jump on me saying that I am merely jealous of China's overall gold medal dominance over USA, please think again.
Regardless of what happens, China will still be on top and I congratulate them. Also, as mentioned before, China would no doubt have had an amazing team with all 16 years plus athletes. But the point here people, is the possibility that China cheated.
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Nessie
I'm talking about the overall medal count, Sean.
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chardk1
The people who say that the age limit of 16 is unfair anyway are totally missing the point. That is the thing about rules. Some are good, some are bad, but the fairest thing is for everyone to abide by them as long as the rule stands. How is fair to those who played by the rules, or to the international sports community, that underaged Chinese girls get to compete because as their country creates forged passports for them in violation of international law?
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seansezso
Not at all. If they are not 16 then their scores should be made unofficial. I know most would take the medals away, but I would let the girls keep the medals, congratulate them on their perfomances and simply remove their wins from the record and pass out new medals to the new winners. I see no reason to punish the girls for what the adults have done.
But calling a silly rule silly is hardly missing the point. There can be no greater point when such a silly rule gets violated. That is because until the rule is changed its just going to keep happening forever. We have our eye on the future, no just today.
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seansezso
That too would be less. Given other gymnasts, there is no guarantee they would have even scored a bronze in all those gymnastics competitions, and there were several.
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seansezso
Assuming these girls are underage, take a minute and consider where their skills will be in four years. They are only going down hill from hear. Its silly to keep them out when they are at their peak. In fact, its dangerous to them.
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Nessie
China is 15 gold medals in front. It would not have made much difference to the total medal count.
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seansezso
We know that now. Nobody knew that going in.
I count 3 gold won by Chinese women for gymnastics, and seven medals total so far, but I am not sure if all of them are in controversy.
In retrospect, you are correct that China may have damaged its image for a paltry haul of gold, but I say again, nobody knew that going in. It could have happend that China led by only one medal as easy as 15. And having got only 3 gold out its woman gymnasts all only backs up my point that that was the best team they could put together.
On a side note, Chinese men owned gymnastics. 8 gold for 9 men's events! A Polish man managed to get the single remaining gold.
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LFRAgain
seansezso,
Your arguments regarding the fairness or silliness of the rules are moot for one simple reason: If everyone is held to the same rules, then there is nothing unfair about it. And while it may seem a silly rule to you, if everyone is being equally silly, then there should be no problem and claims of cheating can fall to the wayside as simple sour grapes.
Interestingly, you don't seem to be arguing so much that China didn't cheat as China had an acceptable excuse for cheating, which makes me question whether you actually understand the intrinsic value of rules in sports competitions, or in anything governed by rules, for that matter, like, say, driving. For example, I think the posted speed limits on roads in Japan are ridiculously low, bordering on silly in some cases. Am I then free to drive at higher speeds because I deem the speed limit silly?
Each nation that fields a gymnastics team at the Olympics is fully aware of and agrees to abide by the rules governing competition. If they can’t follow those rules, then they shouldn’t be competing. And they certainly shouldn’t be receiving medals that are the fruit of ignoring those rules.
Do 14-year old gymnasts have a physical advantage over their 16-year old rivals? Yes, they do. You admit as much in your exhortations regarding how it’s only downhill from 14 for all gymnasts. Does a team comprised of under-16 athletes receiving gold medals for their efforts constitute unfairness? It most certainly does. You bandy about words like fairness, yet you can’t seem to grasp the fundamental unfairness of China allegedly utilizing an age advantage to best opponents who, by abiding by the rules of Olympic competition, failed to take the same road.
As to your assertion that gymnasts only go downhill from age 14, while that holds true in principle for athletes in any sport, please consider that the Silver Medal for the women’s vault at Beijing was won by German competitor Oksana Chusovitina, at the ripe old age of 33.
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seansezso
LFRAgain,
I have several posts here. If you had looked at them, you could have saved yourself a lot of typing. I said I would disqualify China if they were found to be cheating, despite how much I think the rules suck.
I wonder if you realized the inherent flaw of that position just after striking the enter key? Of course rules can be unfair even if all are held to them equally! That is one reason why rules change over time despite the fact that they were applied equally to all! I find this rule unfair to every Olympic minded gymnast on the planet. Therefore, my underwear does not bunch when the rule gets broken.
Yes, you are free in a sense. You do so at your own risk however, but I will salute your civil disobedience so long as you were not going too fast. This rule infraction is equally minor, as the rule itself is just as silly. And change often comes from below in just this manner. The IOC and the judges are notoriously blind.
I said young age was an advantage, not the holy grail. Oksana is hardly the norm. Consider that one of the Chinese athletes can no longer perform a move she perfected and is even named after her. She has been unable to do it since puberty.
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Sarge
Oh, for cryin' out loud... He Kexin not only turned 16 January 1, she's a great gymnast!
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