A culture shock – generosity isn’t free
TOKYO —
One example of culture shock I have experienced in the U.S. is how people treat generosity differently from Japan.
In Japan, it’s normal to be nice back to someone if he/she is nice to you. Here in the U.S., I have met some people who think they can run over me or they are better than me if I am nice to them. What the heck? It was totally different from what I was used to. When we are nice in Japan, we don’t mean we want to be your friends immediately nor do we want something in return. It’s just the right thing to do. I like to be polite to others because I always cherish every encounter and also I believe that the way I treat others shows the kind of person I am.
Of course, not everyone in the U.S. acts in the way I described above. I am very lucky to be surrounded by nice people here and often they are more polite than me. I feel like: “Wait a minute. I am supposed to be more polite than them. I am Japanese!”
It was a bit disappointing to find out I live in a culture in which I don’t know what to expect from others if I am nice to them. Oh well, it’s a different culture and “When in Rome, do as Romans do.” So I had to adapt myself to my new culture. Normally I have a really good instinct to tell who is trustworthy—that’s how I survived living in different foreign countries. I grew up in a small town in Japan and everyone knows each other there; I could trust everyone. Even in a big city like Tokyo, I say you are pretty safe and people are somewhat trustworthy compared to other big cities. So that’s one of the things I had to throw away—trusting the others. No hard feelings. That’s life.
As you get older and have your own family, your focus will be different and you just don’t have time for many people. You have to pick and choose. Yes, I majored in marketing. I know which market I pick for me. Now I observe people more and release my generosity if my instinct tells me it’s safe to do so. You know, I believe that you have to keep changing depending where you are at a point in your life. When you are in high school, everyone may be a friend and everything is fun. That’s cute. But it won’t work that way at another point in your life or in a certain environment.
People come and go in your life. Only a handful of people decide to be a part of your life. If some decide not to accept your generosity, don’t worry about it. Generosity isn’t free and they will pay for it later: only time will tell how much they lost by not recognizing your generosity.
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8
sillygirl
one comment after 20 years in japan - there is a price here. i have been walked all over by people here when i have been generous. i think it is more of a human nature thing and not a culture thing. and the endless thank you gifts for thanks you that is a vicious cycle in japan is something i dropped out of awhile back.
12
cleo
I'm not sure i understand the point of this article. Surely generosity and giving is a plus for the giver? Whether the recipient chooses to accept it in the spirit it was given is the recipient's problem. If you enjoy being generous, be generous, if you don't, then don't.
4
Maria
So, what the author is saying is, sometimes people were nice, sometimes they weren't so nice, and sometimes they were nicer - and sometimes it was hard to tell because she isn't from there originally, it's easier to figure out what's what in your homeland, and it's easier to understand and trust your own people? Bless.
12
Nicky Washida
I struggle in Japan with the concept that generosity is not one way. If I do something for someone, I am constantly embarrassed that they then feel the need to give me things back - it is not necessary. I gave what I gave because I LiKE to be generous, not because I expect anything in return!
Equally, I have met Japanese who will walk all over me or use me given half an opportunity. I dont think this is a cultural or "us and them" thing - there are just good and bad in every culture. The only thing that defines which is which is your own perception of it.
7
tkoind2
I see very little difference in people who are nice here in Japan and those in my home country. And I have lived a long time in Japan and feel more at home here than in the US.
First of all I rarely have people behave in a warm nice way to me in Tokyo. So rarely that when it does happen I am happily surprised. And when it does happen, it is usually older people who are very generous with their kindness and do not expect anything back.
In the US, when I visit once a year, I find that people are often very nice and I cannot remember anyone ever expecting anything in return. A guy at a local shop may direct me to a competitor when he does not have the item I need. Or someone may let me in line ahead of them at the super when I have two items and they have a huge cart. Or people offer to show me the new great spots in town if I have time, and ask for nothing.
5
tkoind2
In the US, I often find people in public who are complete strangers who offer gestures of kindness with no expectation other than a thank you and a smile. Likewise with friends and aquaintances, I find exactly the same behavior with friends often going way out their way to show kindness to my wife and I.
Meanwhile in Japan, I rarely if ever experience random public kindness. More often I am shoved, pushed, stared at or even crashed into without any acknowledgement what so ever. While aquantances, most often work or music related, usually expect something or are hoping to sell me something.
Yet when outside of Tokyo, I find profound levels of warmth and generocity from Japanese people. Which I think says a great deal about Tokyo.
I would not generalize all of Japan to be un-generous. And you should not imply that this is some kind of culture difference. When clearly it is a limited experience you are referring too. I submit that some people in Tokyo are not in the least generous. But this does not define Japanese culture any more than the loving generocity of the people in the country side.
I propose that the same is true in the US. Generocity is a person, perhaps even local culture and certainly not a national culture that can be reasonably representative of the whole.
0
Raja Timilsina
Wait a minute. I am supposed to be more polite than them. I am Japanese!” it is not something i was looking for so sorry ................
3
smithinjapan
"In Japan, it’s normal to be nice back to someone if he/she is nice to you."
Ummm... no, it's not quite so 'normal' as it is ABnormal NOT to give back, which is of course expected (hence they even have the name 'okaeshi' for it it). And it's not quite 'generosity' when it's expected, either. Generosity would be helping someone out and NOT expecting a gift in return; nice to get one if people give or give back, but still.
2
ben4short
Japanese are "nice" or generous to one another for two simple reasons, neither one of which is because "it's just the right thing to do," as the author naively asserts. These are: a) with its history of wars, fires, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis and other natural disasters, combined with the Japanese tendency to foster mutually dependent relationships, the act of giving in Japan is more likely than not a survival tool, a nonverbal plea for assistance in the event of another disaster; and b) Japanese are simply afraid of the consequences (ostracism) of *not * being nice.
4
SpanishEyez37
I have lived in some parts of Japan and found levels of generosity different. I'm not trying to bash Tokyo, but outside of here ,I have found more kindness and generosity. Even in Osaka, of all places.
And spot on smithinjapan!
2
Godan
I wish the author went into more detail regarding the above sentence. Without knowing more about the circumstances, it is pretty difficult to make an intelligent comment on this specific story.
Care to share, Rexrode-san?
5
sakurala
I am sorry, but I do not see this as an expert artcile or giving any particular insights on Japan.
There are deep traditions here on how to be ''nice''. For example, you have to greet the neighbours when you move to a new house. WIth that, you must bring a small gift. Although it appears nice, it is like an unspoken rule. Same goes for marriages and their celebration money. After the wedding, you will get a small gift to bring home with you like a cake and some soup packages. In addition, you may get a more expensive gift or get to order something from a catalogue. At first I thought this was so thoughtful but then I realized that it is just the normal way to do things. These things are what are ingrained in Japanese culture and sometimes may be difficult for foreigners to understand without an explination. However, the ''some people are nice and some others use me'' article lacks informative content and just sounds like sometime typing away on a blog.
1
bogva
Nicky Washida, you took the words out of my mouth! Laterally! From day one in Japan I am still puzzled that one's generosity is not taken for granted but have to be equally "canceled out". The whole pleasure of doing a favor or making a gift vanishes with those "calculated" although in most cases also hart-full return.
1
NetNinja
Japanese generosity somewhat insincere - be warned.
My experience with generosity here in Japan is this....if you aren't careful you'll be dumped on. I call it dumping, sometimes even re-gifting. Just a couple examples to support my position.
Be careful of Japanese who are giving you things that are difficult to dispose of. Nobody wants to pay to throw things away here. If they can give it to you it's a burden off them while smiling they put it on you.
Wedding invitations and party invites. Please don't tell me you're getting married. Don't invite me if I'm not your real friend. That's a huge collection plate. Be warned, you are invited to a party to meet people you don't know. That's a light collection plate. They take advantage of your decent Western morals that you would not show up to the potluck empty handed.
I think Japanese old women do a bit more dumping than anybody else though. They dump on each other quite often, things they aren't going to use or don't want, food that they don't want or aren't going to eat. That can be considered dumping calories as well on your body as well.
You have to realize that it's an inch to you but it's a mile for them. It's a long hard lesson that you won't learn or understand until the day you move and it takes you a day or more to throw stuff away.
I don't accept plastic toy gifts from stores. I don't accept campaign gift materials.
That's lots of junk they dump on you.
In the name of "generosity" if you allow Japanese to do so. They'll dump with a smile till you can't eat dinner at your table without moving away something someone gave you.
4
cleo
Try wangling yourself an invitation to a Toyama wedding. You will stagger out of the reception laden down with so much stuff you will need a friend with a van to come and pick you up, and the help of several friends and neighbours to consume it all.
This isn't being 'nice'. This is simply the local custom. The new couple are asking you to spread the joy as far as possible; you're doing them a favour, not the other way round.
'Nice' is doing stuff when there are no ground rules; like going out of your way to make sure a clueless tourist who you're never going to see again gets on the right train, or sharing with your neighbours the harvest from your garden, whether it be asparagus spears, persimmons or a bunch of daisies.
0
cleo
If it's a potluck event they don't expect anyone to show up empty-handed. Your elevated Western morals have nothing to do with it.
Isn't that what makes a party fun? Do you have a phobia about meeting strangers in a social setting?
-1
Wurthington
The point is.... no matter how many TV programs or books the Japanese read... their culture so rigid to the point that they still have no idea of what is just common sense in regards to relationships and dealing with people. Add to that.. heck, there are a lot of gullable people out there no matter what society or culture.
3
gogogo
I agree.
4
sakurala
cleo: totally agreed. I brought up the wedding as an example because I was really surprised when I found out it is a custom. I have many of people go out of their way to be genuinly nice to me. I have had a granny drive my friend and I 50kms because she knew that the bus stop we were at no longer was in service. Also, I have had a police officer lend me 10,000 yen and a lovely lady let me stay at her second house for free when I was trapped on an island. I have so many more exaples, but these are true examples of kindness within Japan. I find that if you are kind an understanding, this kindness can also be found throughout the world.
3
Foxie
I had the exact same feeling when I lived in the US. In Europe, this is much easier. If someone is nice to you, you know it is genuine. In Japan, I also know that it is just politeness, nothing more and nothing less. The rules are clear. But with Americans, I am still confused nowadays. So, I came to the conclusion that it is better not to expect anything to have your peace of mind.
3
Frungy
Simply put Japan works on a reciprocity model (kindness is returned with kindness, gifts are returned with gifts, etc). Western countries generally work on a spontaneous model (kindness is spontaneous without any expectation of reciprocation, gifts likewise). It's a fundamental cultural difference.
Japan's system is more predictable in most cases, but often less sincere, you know what to expect, while the Western system is more random with some people being nice and others being rude. In terms of personal preference I prefer the Japanese system, it takes a lot of guesswork out of things, however many Western people find it mechanical, lacking in warmth and get the feeling that people are just "going through the motions", and as such find it difficult to reach deeper levels of friendship in the ways they traditionally did back home (small spontaneous and thoughtful gifts with no expectation of return, etc).
What stuns me here though is the level of animosity people have towards this cultural phenomenon. It's a difference in culture people, if you don't like it then live in a different country (or move to Tokyo, which is pretty much Western!).
-3
tokyokawasaki
Culture... Culture does not dictate your attitude and feeling towards others. It is your heart (personality). Every culture has nice people and evil cold hearted people. Culture shock = FAIL (your experience has nothing to do with culture)...
6
BurakuminDes
Make no mistake - those winter and summer gifts, new years cards, wedding and funeral money etc given by Japanese are NOT a result of generosity! It is simply obligation - and I know quite a few who detest this false generosity yet continue to maintain the custom to save face I guess. Not saying Japanese are not generous overall though, many are to me! Interesting story Ms. Rexrode, thanks!
0
illsayit
okay Im a glutten for pain-I suck up the generosity, cant be bothered to pay any back, when Im generous Im hated. And I just think it all has to do with being stronger/powerful/better than.....me, like I said, a glutten for pain; Im weak/ need the generosity/foul-mouthed and not grateful......And this article is pathetic. It really gives me the courage to stick it to somebody when they feel my Japenese language ability is lagging and their generosity about having a conversation is next to nothing-this English is about as good as my Japanese, trivial. Now if people like this author, and I, could get beyond labelling everything as cultural, we'd probably be throwing a party!
1
SamuraiBlue
I believe she's talking about the concept "You give them a inch and they'll take a mile" in which Japanese have a saying "親しき仲にも礼儀あり" (Manners should preside even amongst friends). My advise to the author is chose your friends more carefully.
4
Nicky Washida
Makoto - if you meet people who are rude to you or try to run all over you when you are nice to them - ditch them. This is not an American cutural thing - you have just been unfortunate enough to run into some people who are not so good.
I have had the same problem in Japan, and learning who and how to trust is an acquired skill gained with life experience. But rather than not trusting anybody ever because of some bad experiences, I prefer to take the approach of innocent till proven guilty.
1
sakurala
Frungy: I am not sure if I agree with you on your points. I find that I give obligatory gifts no matter where I go. Be it Christmas, birthdays, weddings or baby shower, you are almost always expected to give something and when you are celebrating you are expecting others to return the kindness. I do love random gifts though, and have received during my time in Japan. I guess it depends on the giver; some are heartfelt and others are purely obligation.
0
HansNFranz
@Frungy "Simply put Japan works on a reciprocity model (kindness is returned with kindness, gifts are returned with gifts, etc). Western countries generally work on a spontaneous model (kindness is spontaneous without any expectation of reciprocation, gifts likewise). It's a fundamental cultural difference."
Sorry, but that is a load of insincere crap. In the "Western culture", the actual way of thinking is "when I have been generous to the same person a couple of times, and get back a lot less from them, then I will stop being so generous to them, over time". Also, in a broader sense, "when I do the right thing all the time, it doesn't get me ahead in life, I will stop and be more egotistical / scheming from now on", is the determining Western character. Not the Mother Theresa-like goodness (I know it's a bad example, I read Hitchens), you say is the major way of thinking in the West.
Everybody is looking personal gratification, only the systems we built around it to cloak this basic fact are different.
Moderator
Please do not accuse another reader of posting "insincere crap" just because you disagree with his/her opinion. Always remember that good manners apply in cyberspace, too.
1
Nicky Washida
Sorry but I totally disagree. My impression is that in western culture the way of thinking is "I will be generous and if that person takes advantage of my generosity I will stop being generous to them". Reasonably so if you are being taken advantage of.
And I actually find doing the right thing has got me streets ahead unintentionally, rather than being egotistical and scheming. I have met and made many fabulous friends over the years just by being nice and they have enriched my world both materially and emotionally in many unexpected ways. Case in point - I met and became friends with a Japanese guy in his 60`s and we meet from time to time for a beer and a catch up. We take it in turns to buy rounds and speak together in both English and Japanese. Neither of us "gains" more from the other, and neither of us has a hidden agenda - we just wenjoy each others company.
When I returned home I brought him back a present because I wanted to. He didnt give me anything in return and neither did I expect it. Recently, he has given me some tickets for a fabulous show because he cant go so I can take my family instead. I didnt expect such generosity but am very grateful for it. Not every relationship with a westerner is about what you can get. Sometimes friendship can be just about friendship.
-1
illsayit
So nobody asked me what sort of party and how much it would cost?......I dont mind the crappy language, it seems real. Nicky-your personal trivia is about on the same line as this authors-yous really deserve to get together......Just offering a third road here, cause does anybody realize that with 2 roads, or choices, we are saying one is right and one is wrong?
0
HansNFranz
@Nicky, I understand what you are saying, but I think what I said is also true for your story - because you are getting back something - the chance to be friends with an older Japanese guy who has interesting stories to tell (I assume), or is just fun to chat with. You gave him a present because you - unconsciously - felt that it would further your bonds and lead to more chats, beer rounds, etc.
But, imagine this guy you met never bothered to answer your calls, never paid for his beer, and was quite grumpy to you most of the time. Then you probably wouldn't have given him a present. That's what I meant by "we are all looking after ourselves first" - but we don't like to admit this to ourselves so we invented this "generosity" thing to make us better about our real selves. This describes the "Western" culture, which I think is not as spontaneous or free-giving as its often made out to be.
Real generosity means that you look beyond things like "do I get along" or "do I like this person", but give anyway, even to a person whose character or deeds you disapprove of. Think like "giving medical service to a wounded mass murderer" - you treat his illness, in spite of him being a mass murderer.
I am not trying to act holier than thou, as I am not that generous a person myself. I look mainly after myself and my family, buy I do claim to be a little more at peace with me since I don't buy into false generalizations like made by frungy above.
1
paulinusa
In sociology, what she's referring to is called "Social Trust", a belief in the honesty, integrity and reliability of others. I think overall the US doesn't rank high, but of course it can vary by age, race, where you live, etc.. Japan? On a strict interpretation I think Japan would rank fairly high. An example might be that if you lose something you're more likely to recover that item because Japanese people are taught from a young age to do so. And yes, I know about rewards for lost money, but that's not entirely relevant ( some people could just keep the lost property ). The point is that you can predict the behavior of a Japanese person to "do the right thing" with more certainty.
-4
illsayit
whered you come from Paul-dont mind me, Im a typical foriegn lass, with a mouthful of crap-just like you can predict Japanese people, I can predict that most foreign men will come down on the Asian ladies side of 'correct'-but dont worry you can label me with something, Ill even offer it up for you, how about jealous? or racist? maybe bitter?, or wait maybe you have a better sounding one like that social trust one.....
2
iceshoecream
So you are supposed to be better than me because you are Japanese? I feel very insulted with that comment.
-1
illsayit
ratpack-who are youS, example of being yourself please? there was a time when Id aim to try and get paranoid-does that sound nice or nasty? This article is like that, hard to tell if it is nice or nasty-in that respect, interesting.
1
Nicky Washida
HanznFranz - firstly THANK YOU for disagreeing with me so politely and respectfully! How nice!
I really DO understand what you are saying and I dont disagree with you in that you are right, I wouldnt bother with the friendship if he was a grumpy old git - that was what I meant by being taken advantage of.
But i honestly didnt expect anything back from him when I gave him the present, other than continued respct and friendship - but I think this is where we differ. For me it is a given that I would expect that in any relationship and if i dont get it, yes I will move on. For me, this doesnt mean I am "in it for what I can get" because for me these are the basic minimums for a relationship to exist. If, from your point of view you think that expecting these things somehow means you are looking after your own interests first - then you are absolutely right. I just dont see it that way.
I wouldnt be generous to someone whose actions/manners I disapprove of. If that makes me not a genuinely generous person I guess that is just something I will have to live with ;-) !
5
Nicky Washida
iceshoecream I didnt like to point that out - I am too polite (!!!) but you are spot on. Walking around with an attitude of "I am politer than you because I am Japanese" in a foreign country is not going to help you win friends and influence people any more than walking around with a gaijin superiority complex would in Japan.
3
mayqueen356
This whole article could just as easily have been written with the nationalities reversed.
"Here in Japan, I have met some people who think they can run over me or they are better than me if I am nice to them. What the heck? It was totally different from what I was used to. When we are nice in the US, we don’t mean we want to be your friends immediately nor do we want something in return. It’s just the right thing to do."
See? It works just the same, and is much closer to my own experience than the original text. So you felt more at home in your own country than you do in a new one? Big surprise there.
I've experienced plenty of instances of people being unkind and impolite in Japan. I've also run into plenty of people who expected something in return for their kindness that was totally inappropriate to expect, and plenty of people who thought that their kindness made it okay for them to look down on me or treat me like I was less than them. I'm sure I would experience the same no matter where i found myself on this earth. This is a classic example of the fundamental attribution error: when the author encounters unkind people in Japan, she writes them off as being an individual jerk, but when she meets one jerk in the US, she thinks it's the entire culture.
A word of advice, Makoto: The sooner you lose all this cultural stereotype baggage and start seeing the people you meet as individual human beings, the happier you'll be.
“Wait a minute. I am supposed to be more polite than them. I am Japanese!”
This just shows how little you know about the culture of the country in which you reside. The US is a patchwork of regional and ethnic cultures, many of which place a heavy emphasis on politeness and manners. I was raised in a culture that expected me to be polite, deferential, and modest, yet for some reason many Japanese people think these things are strictly the purview of the Japanese, and if I have these traits too, it must be that being in Japan has made them rub of on me. On the contrary, this is my native culture, and being in Japan has not changed the way I interact with people at all.
-3
anglootaku
I agree with what you said Mako chan, in nthe west it is a sad reality how peoples mentality can be like, I don't like how people boast or show off, it actually shows their weakness more then anything, though there is the good and the bad in all cultures though.
2
Sasoriza
You are "supposed " to be more polite than an average American, for the simple reason that you are "Japanese"? Do I smell chauvinism here?
Same thing happened to me when I came to Japan-with this honne and tatemae stuff...Being nice on the surface and playing nasty/ badmouthing people behind their back isn't nice at all.
Yes, and being nice and being generous aren't one and the same thing. If you ask someone for directions and he explains you politely and in details, he is being nice. If he comes with you to show you better, he is being generous. If you say to your neighbor that you are very busy and tired like hell with your kids, and she expresses compassion and gives yousome advice on child bearing, she is being nice. If she offers to look for the child if you accidently get sick or need to do something urgent, then she is being generous.
0
ratpack
How about just being yourself and if that means being kind do it regardless of whether the other person likes it or not.
I have met some really rude japanese people and i have met some really polite foreigners. And on the other hand i have met some really polite japanese and i have met some really rude foreigners. I wouldn't sterotype yourself as being more polite than anyone whether you are japanese or not..............just be human and be yourself.
1
gyouza
I think the author wrote taht she likes to blog at around 600 words so as to keep stuff short and readable. The downside of this is the removal of so much context that it just creates confusion.
That line rings in many peoples ears as just rude, but somehow I feel it isn't meant to be taking so literally, I hope.
3
Johannes Weber
In this context I feel inclined to tell a story of my third day in Japan. I had freshly arrived, had no plan of next to nothing and my textbook Japanese sucked completely. I hadn't been able to give my parents back home a call that I had arrived safely, since there were troubles with the public phones and international calls on the campus of Tsukuba university and I did not have internet yet (which I didn't know at that time). I tried an internet cafe, but I didn't get along with the kana input mode, which was not accepted by my mail service (and no one bothered to explain to me how to switch it off). I didn't have a mobile phone yet, so there was no way I could give my parents any notice of being safe and well. I felt horribly miserable.
Thus, I ventured to Akihabara to buy an adapter for the plug of my laptop. I rode the TX to Tokyo after figuring out by observation that you have to put the tickets into the gates' slot to pass. After arriving in AKB, I tried to see what people do to exit, but it was all rush and too fast to clearly understand. While I was standing there, I was approached by a stranger, probably about my age. He showed me how to use the gates. He accompanied me to Yodobashi camera and helped me through various areas of the shop to find an adapter for the plug of my laptop (I didn't even know how to properly explain in Japanese what I needed). It took about half an hour until we had found what I had been looking for. I would have been lost without him. After I had bought the adapter, he said sorry that he is busy and has an appointment and quickly rushed off for it. He didn't know me, he didn't know my problem and he still decided to help me. That is real kindness. I've experienced such kindness from strangers in Japan only once and never again (maybe I didn't need it anymore?). It has nothing to do with all these gift-giving customs and the politeness. Thus, the negative judgement of Tokyoites here is definitely wrong.
Makoto reveals quite a bias with the "I should be more polite because I am Japanese." statement. The Japanese perspective on politeness is different from those in other countries (which differ as well). The assumption that others have to adhere to your bias on politeness and manners and should be measured by your norms is a kind of (probably subconscious) cultural chauvinism. Japanese culture is not more polite than others in general. It expresses politeness in a different and sometimes more obvious way. But that's it. The German philosopher Schopenhauer once said that politeness is like fat or oil in a machine, reducing the friction in social life. I think that hits the nail on the head.
Kindness is of a different nature. Kind people belief that they make the world (around them or for specific people) better by being kind and helpful. The assumption that it will come back to the kind person in some way is rather natural (call it karma or a beneficial environment for more kindness). Truly kind people don't assume how the kindness will be returned. They accept what they are given and they give, when they feel like it.
1
mayqueen356
I think it's just that for many of us who have lived in Japan for a long time, we have heard the same or similar sentiments expressed so many times, with varying degrees of rudeness, that it's hard to take those words at anything other than face value.
Or in other words, she is doing to us precisely what she accuses people in other countries of doing to her, and she does it without any self awareness at all, which makes it even more annoying and hypocritical.
0
mayqueen356
I had an almost identical experience the first time I visited Korea: a total stranger went far out of his way to make sure that I got what I needed, with no expectation of anything in return. Which just goes to show, kindness and generosity aren't limited to any one country.
1
JapanGal
When people give me back something, and I do not like it, want it, or cannot eat it, I politely thank them, and then toss it in the garbage. I do not like clutter. I only have one cabinet for my dishes I make, and one low small table for my computers. Besides futon, what more does anyone need?
0
Frungy
I beg to disagree. Many people who clearly are well ahead in life are appalling bad mannered, so clearly this isn't the reason for bad manner. Likewise many people who are desperately poor still display good manners and are as generous as their circumstances allow. Similarly there are people with poorer friends who help them consistently despite the lack of any return gifts. In fact if your argument held no-one would donate any money to charities, especially since these donations are largely anonymous.
The facts, such as the existence of large well-funded charities, contradicts your simplistic view of human nature. I agree that many people are nice because they find it gratifying on a personal level, whether it's a sense of superiority at being more polite, or the power inherent in being able to give a gift that someone doesn't have the means to return, or perhaps it's the sense of self-righteousness in giving anonymously. However since these motivations are largely internal and informed by complex social concepts about power, righteousness, etc, and as such their manifestations are largely random on a societal scale I would say that my original point about sponteneity still stands.
0
UsagitoSaru
I'm sorry but this is completely untrue! I am from the U.S. I did favors and sometimes people did favors in return because they WANTED to. Nobody ever walked over me and I never walked over them We certainly never did a favor expecting something in return. I move to Japan and every time someone has done me a favor I have been told I MUST give them something in return. Not a FAVOR but a GIFT. I have spent large amounts of money this first year living in Nagoya giving people gifts for telling me my hose burst and was spreading water in my back yard, or for borrowing a Yukata at the local Shimin Kaikan during one of my Japanese classes due to the fact a sudden downpour soaked my clothing and I was freezing. Most people would be happy with a "thank you so much for telling me!" or "thank you for letting me borrow this!" but no I am expected to give them expensive cakes and chocolates. Never had to do any of that in the U.S. a simple thank you was always enough.
1
Nicky Washida
illsayit: given that you can barely string a sentence together that makes any sense, I am not going to take your opinions of my posts too much to heart. Put simply: if you dont like em, dont read em!
3
Foxie
Couldn't agree more with you there, Johannes. I had quite a few experiences like that travelling. A complete stranger in Mexico DF asked me if he could give me a foot massage in a park to make me feel better because I looked tired. He didn't want anything and really made me feel better. I have been approached many times in Korea too without asking anything. One guy said to me that I looked cold once and gave me his gloves. In the Lebanon-Israel war, Israelis took me away from the bombs and let me stay at their house for almost a week. In Turkey one guy stopped me and wouldn't let me go unless I starred in his commercial. That was after 10 minutes in the country. The most heartbreaking kindness I received though was in Guatemala. I stayed at a hotel with high fever and had to take a bus to another city. The waiter felt sorry for me and offered me a lift to the bus station. Unfotunately his car wasn't ready from the repair shop. So, he took me to his home. He lived in the slums with his family and they only had a bit to eat but gave it to me. His sister let me stay in her bed and took good care of me. After a few days, I recovered and he brought me to the bus. I was short on cash, so i couldn't offer them anything. A few weeks later, I went back to the hotel to offer my thanks to that waiter but he no longer worked there. I was unable to find him and this thought still hurts me today.
There are many good people out there in the world. I have personally only experienced rude people in Denmark and interestingly not on only one but numerous occasions.
5
Spidapig24
I will let you in on a secret, Japanese people arnt that polite and friendly. If they where they wouldnt call foreigners names, they wouldnt stare, they wouldnt point and giggle. I have been to several countries around the world and never experienced anything like how the Japanese treat foreigners. Now that being said that doesnt mean all Japanese are like this, it doesnt mean the majority are like it. You go to any country and you will see different people and reactions, to claim as this twit does that she should be superior in some respect because she is JAPANESE is just garbage. There are good and bad in every culture and in every country. Deal with it.
She is upset because she lives in a culture that she doesnt know what to expect from others if they are nice to them. I tell you what girly try being a caucasian male in Japan, you open a door for someone and they completely ignore you or look at you with terror on their face like you are going to rob or kill them. Or you sit on a train and the Japanese will stand rather than sit next to you. Then you can come here and whine about culture shock.
6
Nicky Washida
I sympathise with you on that one spidapig! But I can at least explain it - they are so shocked that a MAN - ANY man - is actually holding the bloody door for them in the first place!!!
0
Spidapig24
Nicky,
Actually l never thought of it that way. Thanks for the laugh
3
Nicky Washida
Welcome. I can also tell you that it isnt just caucasian males they refuse to sit next to on the train. I seem to scare the bejesus out of them too for some reason! Could be the nervous tick and the drooling....?!
1
DS
My experience has been that Japanese lack "spontaneous" generosity, as they lack spontenaiety in so many areas of life. Given a cause and some organization, they pull together magnificently, as can be seen in the reaction to various disasters. However, simple daily courtesies are often not performed or received well. This is particularly true among strangers- social constraints and communication difficulties make it almost impossible to strike up casual conversations and perform small acts of random kindness.
-1
smithinjapan
Now, Japanese people CAN be extremely and genuinely kind and giving, but I find this more in the gestures of people who will help you when you are in need -- for example a person guiding you to some place when you are lost, taking time out of their own schedule, or helping you do something you are having trouble with on your own when they notice you look physically perplexed. THAT is kindness, and such gestures are not limited to Japan by any means. Things like Ochuugen and Oseibo (mid/end year gifts to a teacher), and the okaeshi I mentioned above are not good examples of 'kindness' because they are more or less obligatory gifts. As I said before, getting something because you expect it is not generosity on the giver's part -- I'm sure not too many posters would disagree that a woman working in an office giving her boss Valentine's 'giri-choco' is not an act of kindness.
Now, true, if you are repeatedly kind to someone, whether it be gifts or gestures, and they never show any kindness in return you might stop doing it, but even someone showing genuine gratitude over said kindnesses ought to be enough.
0
dolphingirl
"Here in Japan, I have met some people who think they can run over me or they are better than me if I am nice to them. What the heck? It was totally different from what I was used to. When we are nice in the US, we don’t mean we want to be your friends immediately nor do we want something in return. It’s just the right thing to do."
Interesting point. It seems the writer went to the US with the belief that 'Japanese are supposed to be more polite than Americans' and therefore she had a preconceived notion of what people would be like. When she met people who were rude to her, she thought, yes, this proves I am right!
I think it is important to distinguish polite & nice from kind & generous. The former are ways that we behave according to the cultural norms our country. These are often programmed into us from an early age and these behaviors can differ from culture to culture. (People in the US may hold the door open for you whereas people in Japan may not.) The latter describe a person's character and heart.
I'm sure there are many kind and generous people in every country just as there are some people who are mean and selfish in every country. These are traits of an individual. In terms of being polite and nice, well, Japan just has a lot more cultural rules and therefore, as others have mentioned, politeness is much more predictable. For people in the US an elsewhere, being polite is a little more random but just as common.
0
BurakuminDes
Ha ha SpidaPig! I usually allow women out of the elevator first here - and they at times almost die of shock! They have never before experienced this degree of politeness from J-men most likely! So, sometimes things work in our advantage ;-) But gender politeness between cultures is a whole new article - maybe next time, Ms. Rexrode?
1
Parmen
The writer seems to have summed the perplexity in in paragraph one. Politeness is strategic behavior. In Japan, it is expected that you repay politeness in kind; in the US it is seen as attrition and more superficial--so why play the small game necessarily when their are larger stakes. Hence the expression; wolf dressed as sheep etc. etc.
7
Mahiru Shiratori
I'm surprised when I read this article. The other day, Makoto posted her article about "international marriage" where she said nationality doesn't matter. But here, she says totally opposite I'm still not sure what's the point of this article, but I found she is contradicting herself in some ways. "When we are nice in Japan, we don't mean we want to be your friends immediately nor do we want something in return." But later on she says,"Now I observe people more and release my generosity if my instinct tells me it's safe to do so." If she doesn't expect anything in return, she doesn't need to observe people or pick who to release her generosity. She is obviously expecting something in return. She expects people to recognize and appreciate her generosity. She seems to be very narrow minded. She must have been pissed when she did something nice to someone but they didn't appreciate her kindness and then she turned this event into cultural difference and start judging Americans. I have lived in America for several years in different places. I have met some extremely generous people there whether it is a big city or small town. It is rather easy to find generous/helpful people in small town and it is often said the people in a big city are cold. It is not exactly true. Remember 3.11 when people were stranded in Tokyo and tried to walk home taking several hours. I heard many shops, small restaurants, individual homes were offering some rice-balls, miso-soup, bathrooms, and just some spaces for people to get rest for total strangers. They were offering help without expecting anything in return. Right after 3.11, a number of Americans (and other people overseas) who did not belong to any organizations spent their money on airfare and everything, and came to Tohoku and did volunteer work. In one country in Africa (forgot which country), some poor farmers asked a JICA member if she could send their beans to Japanese people. They heard the news and they wanted to help hungry Japanese people by offering half of their food. I would call all those people extremely generous. These people are not observing who to release their generosity. There are purely want to help people in trouble. That's I would call "generous".
0
Parmen
Politeness is basically political behavior; never heart felt, though it can be for the naive: not to be mistaken with empathy and compassion.
0
Mahiru Shiratori
It is true in Japan that "If you get a gift, you are supposed to give 'okaeshi' in return" at only certain occasion, such as wedding, funeral, baby shower...etc. It's a Japanese tradition and written on "kan-kon-so-sai" manual. The gift in return is supposed to be a half the price of the first gift. Otherwise, you embarrass the first giver. I follow this tradition only on wedding and funeral.
-2
illsayit
it would seem being particular about okaeshi is a regular thing-it would also seem that Im understood.
So heres my generous effort-this week-I had our next door neighbours daughter visit me twice in consecutive days, shes 24 and you know i havent seen her about since she was like 5 or 6, around the time she was raped......she seems to have become handicapped from this incident, I drove her home the first day. When my husband called by to speak to her father and ask if she wanted to come to church with us on Sunday, he said no cause they have to change doctors cause she wanders off everywhere......
mnmnm I guess my generously driving her home wasnt appreciated......not that i care, in fact i hope she gets brave enough to visit me again......
now Nicky, do you suppose you can grasp my sentence and do you suppose that the author of this article is perhaps just a little on your level......
long day,
-1
herefornow
How "generous" are folks in Japan to the poor or the indigent? Or how much do Japanese people give to charities? Ritualized politeness is not to be confused with real kindness or generosity. And if shouting "sumimasen" at the top of one's lungs to get the attention of a service person, and repeating it every five seconds until they respond, is a kind way to treat people, then I certainly don't know what is.
0
LoveNot
Actually, in my experience some Japanese people are quite rude, abusive and insulting, there are good people and rude people same as everywhere.
-1
LoveNot
If you open the door for me, I will be so thankful....
2
Samantha Zoe Aso
Anybody who drags out the line
I am polite because I am Japanesejust shuts me off immediately. You get rude, insensitive and arrogant folk all over the world. Pointing out that you aremore politebecause you are anani nani jinyoud better make sure you are the most well behaved and considerate so and so on this planet as that kind of comment will only put you under amanner microscope`!I will probably reflect on this more deeply after my morning bike ride to work, dicing with death surrounded by all those other kind,considerate japanese cyclists!
0
Pixilated
I have to completely agree with this point. I find a lot of people in Japan aren't necessarily polite because they're just so warm, friendly, and generous. But because it's an obligation and expectation for them to behave so, and they do not want others to gossip about them, ostracize them, or dislike them. It's more a matter of fitting in and doing what's traditionally expected rather than out of generosity.
0
MeanRingo
Wow, she says the word "nice" a lot. Funny that she never really defines what she considers a "nice" or "kind" act. Does this mean people will hold the door open for you, or slam it in your face? It is a good thing that Japan has a lot of automatic doors. Is it "nice" that Japanese people ride around in black vans blaring anti-gaijin dribble? Or is it just "nice" to ignore them and let them spout their hatred? I would really like to know what she defines as "nice", because she really does not say it in the article. Nor does she explain why she combines "nice" and "trustworthy". I can tell you that in many cultures the most untrustworthy people will come off as nice. It certainly is tragic that there are so many people in the world who do not act kindly for altruistic reasons. That should certainly not come as a surprise.
-6
Makoto from East
Hello!
I am glad that I brought up this topic to everyone's attention and I enjoy listening to what the others had to say. I have found many blogs from non-Japanese talking about their experience living in Japan, but I never found one with a Japanese expressing their opinions living in a foreign country. So I thought I would share my opinions with you. It sounded like many got offended but it was merely my opinions. I understand every culture seems to have a different definition of respect.
Throughout my husband's job, I have met so many people who have NO RESPECT for an authority or even they can't act respectfully. It was a shocking experience for me. As I said in my blog, it doesn't apply to all American people. I often share this feeling with my AMERICAN friends and they totally agree with me.
Nicky, in the US there are lots of sub-societies and it's not that everybody here is taking care of a naive Japanese if you misunderstood my post that way. People in a society I belong here don't deal with petty and we have better things to focus on. So, it is not that I am staying home crying as thinking people are rude. My post was just my observation. I am sure you make some observation on Japanese people, too.
Not everyone has an opportunity to live in a foreign country. When you live in a foreign country, you start realizing how great your country was. There are pros and cons in all countries. I have lived in Japan, Canada, Sweden, and the US. I still pick the US for the best place to live. But, as I said in my blog, I pick and choose for me. I pick good parts of the US and take them in my life, and I will keep good parts of Japan. That's how I want to live.
3
Parmen
Makoto, those people you mention who have no respect for authority is a pseudo observation. What you are expecting to see is people respecting seniority (taken for granted) as in Japan, but that does not exist to anywhere near the same degree in Western countries. Rather, integrity is respected, like values are respected and in multiculturalism it is hard to pin these down. Also, Westerners have a different basis for social interaction: not deference like the Japanese but camaraderie. hence the appearance of roughness. Also, do not look for respect in overt linguistic behavior (including non-verbal) like you do in japan; this is considered mindless. Another point, I think what bothers many of your readers is that Japanese tend to 'discover' things about themselves when they go abroad. Often the focus becomes politeness but as your readers will tell you, it is hilarious when a Japanese person tells you how polite they are. What they often define as politeness is encoded in social norms hence lacks the integrity I mentioned. We really are quite different.
0
Nicky Washida
Hey Makoto, Im really sorry but I dont actually understand what you are saying here. I have never said I think anyone is taking care of a naive Japanese, nor have I ever assumed that you are staying home crying and thinking people are rude - are you confusing me with another poster??! All I said was that you have met some bad people - move on and dont let them get to you. Same advice I would give to anyone of any nationality in any country anywhere. It was support, not a criticism!
I think you have misunderstood MY post!
-1
Nicky Washida
Sorry Makoto I just want to add: this line you wrote:
I think some people (me included actually) misunderstood this line. When you take it in context I can see that what you are trying to say is that Japanese pride themselves (rightly or wrongly) on their politeness, and yet you found Americans to be even politer than you believe you are, even though America as a stereotype creates an impression of being more "aggressive" and less "thoughtful" than Japanese (again, rightly or wrongly, not saying I agree or disagree!).
In context, I can see what you are saying and I apologise for misreading it. The problem with many of us foreigners here in Japan, is that we are forever being told that "Japanese are this, that and the other" and we "foreigners are x y and z" when in fact for many of us our experiences here do not bear any of these things to be true, so when emotions get involved sterotyping is very dodgy ground to run on!
illsayit was being a tool with his/her comment but quite honestly (s)he is right - we should get together! You are living the mirror image life of me!
0
Mahiru Shiratori
@Makoto I'm glad you leave comment here. Many readers here are pissed about "I am supposed to be more polite than them. I am Japanese!" When I first read this part, I didn't understand what you were trying say. I have never thought in that way when I was in the states. Well... I was a teenager then, so the most important thing for me was just blending in with my girlfriends and do exactly the same things with other girls, just like "Gossip Girl" girls (lol) But you (and me) are a grownup and living in a foreign country is different than teenagers do. I've been trying to understand what your statement really means. I came out with a bit different interpretation than other readers took it literary. Maybe you meant you are supposed to be politer than anybody else because some people see you as you represent all Japanese people. If you act rude, people might think all Japanese are rude. Is that why you thought "I am supposed to be more polite than them. I am Japanese!"???
-1
HansNFranz
About rude and / or cold Japanese people - I think I said it before in another comment thread: Isn't that behavior almost always coming from a certain kind of people? I mean the kind of older (50+) Japanese who never left Japan (except for a trip to Hawaii, maybe), never bothered to learn a foreign language, and may even still have a grudge because of WWII. In any country, it is always the least cosmopolitan people who feel the most insecure towards foreigners. The thing in Japan is, there are a lot of elderly Japanese people, even those living in the mega-city Tokyo and have money, who are the opposite of cosmopolitan. I have never received rude or cold attitude from Japanese people who have peeked beyond Japan's borders, or have traveled to another country. So, what I am basically saying is, if you get a lot of attitude when you did nothing wrong, you are probably interacting with the wrong kind of people. I had to learn how to spot them, but now when I know who they are and what they usually act or look like, I manage to avoid them.
0
HansNFranz
Oh, I forgot to say - the fact that those people who treat foreigners as below them are also the most boring kind of people, leads to the convenient situation that I have no interest in communicating with them, anyway. So it's a win-win for me.
0
HansNFranz
I think Makoto just mistook the word "supposed" for "expected" - that's how I would read the sentence in context: "I am EXPECTED to be more polite than them."
Japanese people are stereotyped to be the most polite people in the world, and I think Makoto simply wanted to hint at this expectation she felt she must meet in a foreign country.
Am I right?
0
oginome
My high school was nothing like that.
0
Mahiru Shiratori
It's very interesting to hear what foreigners living in Japan think about Japanese, especially negative aspects. As being Japanese myself, I barely hear honest negative opinions in detail. (I hear some negative stuff in general, tho) I never knew foreigners are pissed about "I am polite because I am Japanese" thing and they hear/experience this thing quite often. I would like to know more in detail because I might have done this thing unintentionally. Is this thing among all ages or certain generation, male/female...???
0
Nicky Washida
Ok, so this time I actually understood what you were writing, but I am not understanding the point you are trying to make at all - yes, I absolutely think the author is on "my level" if that level is being married to someone from a different culture to my own living in a foreign country and having children. Is that your point? What do you mean by "we deserve each other"? Like this is somehow a bad thing? That my comments and experiences are "personal trivia"? Isnt everyone who tells their stories writing about their own personal trivia? Isnt what you have written your own personal trivia? Im sorry, but you just make no sense to me at all!
1
Nicky Washida
@Mahiru: first of all, I applaud anyone, Japanese or otherwise, who wants to learn more about how their culture is perceived from outside eyes. Good for you!
The issue here is twofold I think: firstly, in many of our experiences, this is simply not true, and we get frustrated when Japanese think "He/she is Japanese, therefore they are polite/innocent/patient/whatever". Not saying all Japanese are not polite either, but there are good and bad everywhere and saying "all Japanese are polite" is like saying "all Brits are football hooligans" - it simply isnt true!
Secondly, the implication in saying to a foreigner that Japanese are polite is that - unspokenly - we get the message that they then somehow consider themselves "superior" to other cultures - such as our own - because of their self-perceived politeness as compared to our own culture. This irritates us even more because we feel they consider themselves as Japanese superior to us because of their "politeness" even though we are dissed by Japanese on a regular basis!
I hope this explains for you why foreigners here get pissed about the issue. I would just like to point out that the above is not a reflection of my personal feelings, I am merely trying to exaplin to you from a foreigners point of view as I am pretty impressed that as a Japanese you are even asking he question and interested in the answer! Thank you!
0
Nicky Washida
Sorry - didnt answer your main question which is no - not limited to age or gender at all, but I think you may well find a difference in opinion between foreigners who live in or outside big cities where I think things are markedly different from, say, the centre of Tokyo. Even other Japanese think Tokyoites are rude!
0
Nicky Washida
Im kind of surprised about this, because I thought your husband was in the military where, of all places, they learn to respect authority? Maybe I am wrong, having no experience of the military myself beyond Hollywood movies(!) but this was always my impression.
As Parmen explained beautifully above, we dont tend to have automatic respect based on age, or even social "rank" in general, but we base our respect much more on the personal qualities of the individual in question - their honesty, integrity, kindness, that kind of thing. Its kind of idealistic, but in western culture we tend more to see that everyone regardless of age and experience has something potentially valuable to contribute and should have an equal voice. We like to think that respect goes both ways, up and down the hierarchy, be that hierarchy age, rank, social status, whatever. Of course, the world isnt ideal and it doesnt always work that way(!) but we prize this above simple seniority based on age I think.
1
LoveNot
To tell you the truth, I do not find Japanese people around me generous, I think they are very unsocial, cold and unfriendly. My neighbor never greets me despite my efforts to be friendly and to greet her every day with a smile. They treat me badly to such an extent that now I want to communicate mainly with foreigners in Tokyo, sorry.
0
Mahiru Shiratori
Thank you, Nicky. I'm still not sure if I understand you correctly, but is it the same thing like, "Japanese technology is the best of the best. Even if Fukushima nuke plants are out of control, we don't need any help from foreign countries because we know what to do. We are Japanese."???
I want to ask one more thing. I want to hear "offensive jokes about Japanese". I know they are pretty offensive. Even my close friends don't tell me those jokes even if I beg them to tell me. It's the best way to know what other people see other culture, you know. But probably moderator will remove them, huh!!!
0
tmarie
Nice? What exactly does that mean? I find people in Japan are generally lacking in manners - won't keep the door open for you, won't offer seats up to older people, don't help people who have dropped things... because of the culture of having to "repaying" the niceness. I think it stops people in Japan from honestly being nice for the sake of helping. I dislike the fuss that is made is I offer up a seat, help someone with their bags... it is cringe-worthy how some people go over the top on something I just think as good manners.
I also find that some people, certainly not all, in Japan are only nice because they want something from me - usually English lessons or a chance at bagging a "gaijin" friend. It has led me to be very wary of overly nice people I have just met because I am always waiting for the kicker of "Please teach me English" or "I would love to go for coffee with you and introduce you to my friends".
Indeed some people "back home" are rude and not nice but I find it easier to deal with because there is no hidden agenda and it doesn't take any effort to figure out.
The gift giving culture here - and the "owing" culture here isn't nice. It is a formality.
0
tmarie
And I get sick and tired of hearing how nice and polite the Japanese are. They aren't anymore so than any other nation I have been to and at times, I feel they are a heck of a lot ruder with some of the things they do - staring being on of them.
1
Nicky Washida
@Mahiru
you are welcome! As for your comparison to technology and "we Japanese have the best of the best" - well, that is a similar thing in terms of the arrogance of thinking they are the best but - and I cant speak for all foreigners here - in my opinion it is not really as big a deal as the politeness issue, because the politeness relates to personal qualities which we hold as being personally very important.
The difference is that Japan may have better technology than ou home countries, or it may not - we may or may not know, but whilst saying "We Japanese have the best technology, we dont need outside help" may come across as arrogant, it is a "national" question, whereas the suggestion that "We Japanese are politer than foreigners" is a very personal question because it relates to personal qualities that we all value. Does that make sense??!
If a Japanese said something like "We Japanese have the best technology and dont need outside help because we are all smarter than foreigners" - THAT would probably get the same reaction as the politeness comment, but to be fair I have never heard a Japanese directly say that, although I have heard from time to time that they are the strongest in the world at Science and Maths - which may be true, I dont know!
Sorry - I actually dont know any offensive Japanese jokes! None at all! Im sure they must exist but I have never honestly heard any. I can tell you the "stereotype" view of Japanese from overseas, but to be honest you probably already know - robotic salarymen, Stepford housewives, schools that measure skirt length by making girls kneel on the floor, humour based largely on physical pain, sailor-uniform schoolgirls, - that kind of thing. For the most part, I have found all those stereotypes before I came to Japan to be largely false.
0
LoveNot
Behaviour of Japanese people in the trains is horrible. It is terrible to see so many salary men sleeping on the seats while older people, pregnant women having to stand in front of them; also all the pushing to enter the train and take a seat is obvious lack of manners. I have seen only foreigners helping women with luggage on the stairs in train stations. Japanese men have no manners for helping ladies or opening doors, they are clueless. that is why Japanese women are so smitten with foreign men, because men make the women think they are the center of universe, while this isjust a basic courtsey in the world. When I have asked for directions in Tokyo, it is hit or miss. There are some kind people who give directions, but many people just ignore you and do not stop or do not make an effort to be polite; some taxi drivers just escape from foreigners. People do not sit on the train near me. Many Japanese people are not sociable enough, and they find this excuse they think so perfect, "we Japanese people are shy". This is not an excuse not to be sociable and friendly.... work to overcome it.
0
nigelboy
Strange.....
The foreign media (especially the Chinese) were reporting these behavior by the Japanese nearly 8 months ago...
Hundreds of people forming orderly lines without instruction in front of supermakets, convenience stores, bus stops, public telephone, etcs.
Various local stores and household offering free bottled water, snacks, and bathroom breaks to hundreds of pedestrians.
Gas stations not increasing the price and their attendants explaning to those cars waiting how long the wait could take and apologizing for the inconvenience at the same time.
Hundreds of cars obeying signals and not honking despite the fact that only one or two cars were able to cross the intersection at every signal change.
Hundreds of people sitting on stairs but leave enough room in the middle so people could pass by.
etc. etc.
Those were thousands of strangers engaging along with other strangers who may well never see again and yet.....
BTW, these happenings occured in Tokyo.
0
LoveNot
I am pissed with "We Japanese are shy" as an excuse to ignoring people, not being kind, polite, friendly, good with communication with people. It is as if being shy is very commendable trait. If you are shy and run away from people, it is not good.
0
tmarie
Japanese men have no manners for helping ladies or opening doors, they are clueless. that is why Japanese women are so smitten with foreign men, because men make the women think they are the center of universe,
Perhaps the Japanese men don't hold the doors open for Japanese women because the women never say thank you?? I get doors held open for me by the men here, never by the women. I think you're going off on a tangent on "gaijin men being better" which I will disagree with. They aren't better. For every rude Japanese man, I will show you a rude foreign man. It all comes down to individuals.
Interesting the comment about 3/11 because everyone want on and on about how prepared, how polite, how organized everything was. Meanwhile, there were rapes, murder, thefts... that largely went unreported in the media. Was it chaos like has happened and may happen in other countries? Certainly not but to paint the picture that everyone got along swimmingly is a lie.
Smug Japanese "we have better tech, we are more polite" annoy the heck out of me and I have to say, this is the ONLY country where I meet people who think so highly of themselves - Canadians come a close second. You aren't exactly "polite" nor "kind" if you are telling non-Japanese about how superior your race is. More so when whatever you are spouting off about is incorrect. Give me glazed windows and insulation over a heated toilet seat and a man who will open the door for me over someone telling me how great their nation is. Like I said, I have met some wonderful people but the whole attitude that "they" are superior to "us" is juts bad behaviour, unkind and rude. Sadly, I often here the "ware ware" from many. I guess they don't realise they are doing a disservice to those individuals who don't have to base everything on race and nationality and can just relax and stop trying to prove thing.
0
nigelboy
If it was unreported in the media, how would you know? Wishful thinking.
Crime is way down in the effected area, btw.
http://www.npa.go.jp/toukei/keiji35/hanzai2011.htm Pg 14.
Sometimes you got to wonder about people posting these kind of comments.
1
Nicky Washida
Agreed - shy is cute when you are 6, but quite pathetic really when you are 36.
0
Mahiru Shiratori
But shy is cute if you are 90 year old obaa-chan :)
0
nigelboy
Tmarie,
Your post makes no sense. The handful of people who went to the area told you that crime wasn't reported?? Women sleeping in groups with their kids? Where are the husbands?? Why bring up something from the past century?? That's like saying Caucasians today are mean because their ancestors practiced slavery and segregation.
-2
tmarie
Nigel, would be happy to chat about it all but not on this thread - and the mods removed my post anyway. 3/11 with women sleeping in groups isn't from the past century. My point of it all is, this country isn't as kind, nice, polite, safe as the locals would like us to believe.
We could get into the racism in Japan if you would like. The fear of "gaijin" is very visible. The sitting next to each other on the train thing is being commented on already. Should be look at the no gaijin rule, the lack of laws to protect us and being openly called foreigners by the locals? I don't find that too kind myself.
0
Nicky Washida
Yeah, a shy 90 year old is sweet, but most of them in my area seem to be the type that would sell their own children to get to the last roll of toilet paper in the store when it was 3/11. They wont speak to me or sit next to me but they will sure as hell belt me out of the way to get that paper and cup ramen!
-1
tmarie
100% agree Nicky! I got pushed out of a line yesterday by a women in her 70s or so. She pushed ahead, hit me with her bag, got her coffee and then managed to hit me again on her way to her seat - while I tried to avoid her. No apology, nothing. it was like I didn't exist. I find it happens often. Heaven forbid your in THEIR way! Tend to find the men much nicer with regards to this but sometimes no better.
My students who go abroad and come back often complain about the lack of manners here. Needless to say, I don't disagree with them. It is that whole soto/uchi thing. Kind to the people they know but those they don't and are under no obligation? Forget it!
1
gogogo
I'm surprised when I read this article. The other day, Makoto posted her article about "international marriage" where she said nationality doesn't matter. But here, she says totally opposite I'm still not sure what's the point of this article, but I found she is contradicting herself in some ways
-1
strongboss
Very interesting to see that someone visited my home country and experienced similar feelings to what I've felt myself here in Japan. Indeed, based on the conversations I've had with my other foreigner friends here, you could have reversed the article to be about foreigners in Japan, and most of it would still make plenty of sense to me (minus the part about Japanese being known for politeness, of course).
Clearly some number of people took advantage of the author at some point, most likely because her generosity seemed to be a weakness. As many said, this can happen easily in any country, but I think people know how to avoid it much better when among people of their own culture. You learn to recognize and avoid being generous to the types of people who might respond negatively to it. Perhaps if I were Japanese I would know better than to put myself in those positions here, and likewise if the author was a US native. These sort of problems happened to a Japanese friend of mine when she was in the US as well, but when she described to me how these things would happen, they were situations I've never had any problem avoiding as a native. It reflects bad on US culture as a whole, because the people involved in those situations, in her case, were probably some of the worst 1% of people living there. I always keep that in mind when I am preyed upon here in Japan due to my own naivety.
Overall, I agree that you need to put up a bit more guard and use more caution at certain times when in the US. It's not that the average person is any less generous or reciprocal of generosity, but as you approach the "a-hole" end of the spectrum, there are more who will go as far as they can get when it comes to take, take, take, take, and they often get very creative in how they go about doing so. You're much less likely to be majorly scammed by businesses here in Japan, for example.
I would like to mention that there are definitely certain situations where people in Tokyo tend to be far less kind/generous to strangers in comparison to those I know back home. For example...when the staff majorly screws up your order at restaurant, makes you wait far too long for something, or some other mistake....back in the US once they realize what happened, especially if they can see that you are mildly displeased by the experience, they will offer you a discount or most of the time just give you part of your meal for free. That sort of treatment is a rarity here, from what I've seen. Very much cultural too that they feel they must adhere to the rules of business, regardless of how generous they might feel like being. Sometimes they won't even apologize here unless you directly complain about it, which can be shocking in some contexts.
People on the street are often NOT generous about making space for you to walk past them, even in comparison to similarly crowded places in the US. Some of them quite obviously expect you to move out of the way for them, and I've even had them run into me while I am actually STOPPED and not even moving, because I stopped upon realizing it was impossible to safely step out of their way. Clearly the more generous behavior is to consider what the others around you are doing, and occasionally sacrifice your own optimal path of movement for something that works better for the group around you.
My last complaint about selfish behavior here is peoples' ability to form lines and not try to push/cut ahead of each other. When there is a line, there's little problem, and people seem to respect it quite well for the most part. But if there is no line, rather than form an informal line (as often happens where I come from), people just walk up and get as close to the front of the mob as they can, totally ignoring others who were obviously waiting longer. It's a bad feeling to watch some guy stroll up, butt in, and order right in front of everyone else, when he has to know what he just did. I've seen this phenomena occur a lot in certain parts of Europe, and especially so in other parts of Asia as well.
Oh, and one more... If you're in line at the supermarket and you just want to buy one little thing, like a bottle of water.... back home, people with big carts full of stuff will very often notice you standing there waiting with your tiny purchase, and they will offer to let you go ahead of them in line. That sort of public generosity is just way way less likely to happen here. Although compared to most of Asia, Japan is much better in this regard.
2
Rohan Gillett
>
Throughout my husband's job, I have met so many people who have NO RESPECT for an authority or even they can't act respectfully. It was a shocking experience for me. As I said in my blog, it doesn't apply to all American people. I often share this feeling with my AMERICAN friends and they totally agree with me.
Japanese people have respect for authority? is serious? Many, many times in Japan I
ve seen police trying to give tickets to motorists/bicyclists, and they have copped a mouthful from the offender. I was thoroughly shocked. Japanese people love to brag on about how polite and well mannered they are. Ive seen nothing in Japan in my 20 years here that would support their claims. They are no better than people from other countries. Shop assitants clearly ignoring the non-Japanese in favour of Japanese customers, girls putting makeup on trains, drunk (guys and gals) asleep on the morning train fully spread out over the seats so no one else can sit down. The list goes on and on, I could easily write a book about Japanese "manners". Im not saying any country is better than another, but the Japanese have no right to claim they are the kings of politeness, I certainly wont believe them.And American agree people agree with her views? I`m not surprised, on two counts. One is that they are being probably being polite agreeing with a guest in their country not wishing to cause offence, and the other is that they can honestly and objectively view their countrymen and recognize their own faults.
2
Yubaru
This line truly bothers me. It doesn't matter what your nationality is when it comes to being polite. Politeness comes from within.
The writer of the article has swallowed, hook, line and sinker the IDEA and stereotype, that her country, Japan (us vs them), is supposed to be somehow more polite than anywhere else on the planet, or at least in regards to "western" countries east of here.
It's sad really that someone who probably likes to think of themselves as being open, intelligent, and accepting would write an article like this. Japan doesnt and will never have a corner on the market when it comes to being polite, because so much of the perceived politeness coming from people here is often times a sham and insincere. That doesnt just go for dealing with foreigners but within themselves as well.
Sincerity and honesty are more important to me than politeness, because with them the latter usually comes naturally.
0
whiskeysour
Japan has it's own beliefs and western nations have their own beliefs
-1
CapnSinbad
I've been here 26 years and I can't think of even one time when a J-folk whom I didn't know was sincerely kind to me or performed a charitable service for me. However, when I'm back home most people are very friendly, will smile at you for no reason, will try and help you for whatever reason you need help for, will assist you if you slip or if you drop something, will stop and help fix or push your car, etc. I have never been helped here even when I tripped while jogging on several occasions and found myself sprawled out on the sidewalk. They stare at you, glare at you, frown at you. I'm used to it though, at least one feels safe here pretty much anytime anywhere.
1
Yubaru
And so what does that have to do with being polite? Just because Japan and by default THIS Japanese woman THINKS she is supposed to be politer than some foreigner makes her beliefs correct?
I'd say it's a misconception and OVER-GENERALIZATION based upon a false premise.
The key here is one wants to THINK it's a belief.
-1
dolphingirl
Politeness is culturally based. I'm sure if you ask a Japanese what is considered polite and then ask an American what is considered polite, you will get two very different answers.
0
Nicky Washida
Rohan Gillet you make a very good point there that i was just thinking about last night in relation to this article. in my experience,most Americans can tell me what they think is wrong with America, dont even get a Brit started on all that is wrong with the UK these days you will be there for hours. Australians and NZers, whilst very proud of their countries and rightly so, can take the blinkers off and see some of the issues they have there and even have ideas for dealing with them.
But very very few Japanese in my experience have a bad word to say about Japan, or will even acknowledge someone elses with a less than rosy view of this country. If something here annoys or upsets me and I talk to my husband about it, he takes it as a personal insult. I think Japanese in general, especially those who have never really left Japan, find it very hard to view themselves objetively, and to be fair, why would they? They have been on a strict diet of propaganda and BS their whole lives.
0
Yubaru
I am sorry but that is a misconception based upon what people want to think. Politeness extends beyond bowing when greeting someone or apologizing, those are cultural, and have nothing to do with being polite either.
You know you might also get some of the very same answers from both as well.
0
tmarie
Nicky, my husband takes everything personal if I criticize Japan. He has no problems however with criticizing other countries. When I have pointed this out to him, he gets stroppy and I point out what he's doing is actually why Japan is in such a situation where they are - debt, crappy economy, horrific manners... If no one stops and looks at the bad things and tries to improve on it, the country will just continue to slid lower and lower. He sort of gets it but then the next time rolls around and he defends Japan. I don't get it. Speak to people from other countries and they are more than ready to complain about their government, the social problems... and offer up solutions. Here? Nope. We just get articles like this that continue to make comments on how superior the Japanese are to everyone else.
-1
Mahiru Shiratori
I think it's only natural that when you are criticized by other nationality, they tend to defend your own country. When Chinese bullet train had an accident, I heard Chinese people were criticizing their government. But at CNN readers forum where non-Chinese criticize Chinese government, Chinese readers were furious of all those comments and started defending their government. If I (as a Japanese national) said "Mr. Bean is ugly" to someone from UK, s/he would get pissed and say, "What are you talking about!!! Shimura Ken is uglier!!!" even if s/he thinks Mr. Bean is ugly. Nicky and tmarie, why don't you tell your Japanese husband "Shimura Ken is ugly" and see his reaction. Maybe they will start defending Shimura Ken and would tell you how beautiful he is.
0
tmarie
Mahiru, are you kidding? Ask any Canadian, Brit, American... what is wrong with their country and they will go off on a rant. Put forward an opinion about their problems and they will usually agree and run with it and list more issues and compare whatever the problem is with another country who seems to handle the situation better. Most of the people I know from other countries don't take the criticism personally. MOST of the Japanese I have spoken to and pointed out issues with Japan go on the defense and end up getting very petty and childish about it. The "we Japanese" comes out as does the "We're better at X,Y,Z" when X,Y,Z have nothing to do with the comments at hand. It is one of the things that drives me nuts with the population here. They stick their heads in the sand, usually refuse to listen to outside opinions and then wonder why the country is slowly sliding down into the gutter.
2
gogogo
The main issue with the author is she is writing as American = foreigner... this is just not the case, do not blanket all foreign (non Japanese) into your own experiences in living in America.
0
Samantha Zoe Aso
@ Mahiru. I think Mr Bean is ugly and I am a Brit! No way would I snog him! Don't know any of my mates who would either! That's the difference you see. 'Ware ware Brits' can see the good and bad about their country. Infact, we can really whinge at times about how the UK has gone down the drain. I tend to find that Japanese I've encountered can't seem to do that!
People keep spouting off about culture and wear it like some kind of armor which basically condones any kind of bad behaivour at times. What about just being a human being, a member of the human race. Some situations I've experienced and witnessed have left me wondering if some folk are even human! I don't know. Maybe I am too bloody sensitive or something.
Is blatantly closing your eyes when you see an old lady struggling to stand on the train, closing your eyes and pretending to be asleep a cultural thing? Or is it connected with your morals as a human being, your integrity?
I think the author really needs to start taking a good, long look at her own country before she starts commenting. A student once told me that her husband had never said 'Thank you' or 'Please' once to her in the 30 years they'd been married. 'He's too shy' she'd quickly add. This is the man who fathered 6 kids with her. Too shy, my bum bum!
1
ycyjpark
Excessive expression for the pride of his/her country usually comes from his/her own insecurity inside, I am afraid. I have lived in Maryland over 40 years and found the people there in general very considerate and caring. When it snows a lot, my neighbors were the first to help me out plowing the snow in my driveway.That says something more significant than just being polite, I think.
1
Bettingurlife
Once again she is way off track with her observations. You only have to look at numerous articles on Japan Today to see that many people are very willing to criticise their own countries, and if someone from another country criticises their own, as long as the person is criticising without maliciousness, people will don
t get angry. They might want to debate the topic, Ill agree with that, but by responding with, "Well the guy from your country is worse", is just plain incorrect. To do so would be one of the worse forms of childishness.1
Nicky Washida
I would comment, but Samantha and tmarie said it all really.
tmarie - great to know we are in the same boat (although there are also 3 kids in mine, which makes the bloody thing so unstable I keep having to bail out water! Personally I recommend you just get a dog! A REAL one too, not one you could wear as a slipper!)
Sam - I wouldnt snog Mr Bean either!
-3
NetNinja
I used to be that gentleman that opened the door and held it if a woman was nearby. I guess too many negative experiences made my skin thick.
I hate not receiving a thank you for holding the door. Not even an "arigato". When the woman passed through the door like she was a princess I always had a few choice words for her in my head.
Nowadays I'm still a rather decent man about opening heavy doors for women. When I turn around now, I immediately look at the woman to see if she appears to be a positive person or not. If she makes eye contact and shows a quick step I'll hold the door. If I don't feel recognized then I don't recognize.
Haha, I've let go of some heavy department store doors and the momentum of the door swinging back wakes them up.
-2
tmarie
Nicky, I wish we could get a dog but he's pushing for sprogs and if I give him one, I think I can hold it over his head forever! ;)
Netninja, I often hold open doors for people here. If they are rude enough not to say thank you - as most are - I will either make a comment in Japanese about the lack of manners in Japan OR I will look at them and say 'Arigato ha?" which embarrasses them - and gets me a thank you. If people don't call others on their lack of manners, things won't change here.
I will also admit to getting pissy with people who slam doors in my face when they can clearly see I am coming in after them. A quick comment on the lack of manners... Is it rude? I don't think so. Not "nice" but since I'm not Japanese it seems okay. Eye roll.
1
cleo
You hold the door for someone because you want a Thank You? Recognition?? Isn't true politeness doing something because it's what you see as the right thing to do, not because you want others to tell you how wonderful you are? How is that any different from the empty 'okaeshi' custom? Who cares how polite the other person is? Granted, if someone spits in my face I'm likely to spit back, but a failure to elicit a Thank You is nothing. Some people are nice, some are not. Why should I let a stranger's attitude spoil my manners?
They're probably as much embarrassed for you as by you. Commenting on another person's manners is very bad manners. They're not your kids. You don't need to teach them manners.
It isn't sprogs or dogs, by the way. You could try pointing out to Mr tmarie that the two go together (they even rhyme...). Cats is good, too.
0
tmarie
Cleo, sadly in my apartment kids are okay but pets are not.
I highly doubt they are embarrassed for me Cleo. They are embarrassed for being called on their lack of manners. More so as I often go out of my way - waiting a few seconds if I see someone behind me. What is rude is shutting the door on their face or not saying thank you to someone who has obviously gone out of their way to keep the door open for you. Much like it is rude not to say thank you when you get your change back at the conbini, when the waitress refills your water glass... I don't say anything in these cases when I see it because I am not the receiver of the snub.
You' right, they aren't my kids. Thank god. My mom instilled manners in me. Shame other parents haven't.
-1
tmarie
Just to add Cleo, you've just called MY manners bad and posted "They're probably as much embarrassed for you as by you. Commenting on another person's manners is very bad manners. They're not your kids. You don't need to teach them manners." So... I guess you'll be joining me in the bad manners corner? Don't worry! We're not Japanese so it seems to be okay!
-2
cleo
But she didn't teach you that it's bad manners to insist that others acknowledge your good manners? (How long do you think the waitress would stay in her job if she insisted diners thank her for every water refill? I agree it's basic manners to say Thank You, but...)
Weird, isn't it? A kid makes far more noise and is far more disruptive than a doggie (assuming Fido isn't tied up outside to howl at the moon all night...)
-1
cleo
touche! ;-) The Internet brings out the worst in us!
Moderator
Back on topic please.
-2
DS
I dont think most people are intentionally rude, but they ARE totally clueless as to what is going on around them. They probably think the door magically opened just for them, or it never occurred to them that anything else would happen. That would require being aware of your surroundings, acknowledging that other people are also occupying the same space.... not strong points of the Japanese.
-3
tmarie
Cleo, when I point this out to people - kids being louder than dogs - I get looks like I killed a kid! Not only are kids louder, they do more damage to a place over the course of 10 years. Heaven forbid though that you ban kids from apartments!!
DS, I think you raise a fair point. People won't ever realise or acknowledge things unless it is brought to their attention. A comment on the lack of manners is one way. Lord knows the "lead by example" doesn't work well here!!
0
Mahiru Shiratori
A little bit of language tip for intermediate & advanced level of Japanese. If you are Japanese 101, maybe it's ok to think Arigato=Thank you. People understand what you are trying to say. But "Arigato" is not exactly "Thank you". If someone holds a door for you and you said, "Arigato", this is pretty rude. It's like someone holds a door for the emperor and he says, "Arigato". Even Empress Michiko wouldn't say "Arigato". Or maybe like a dirty old man would say "Arigato" when a high school girl with a short skirt holds a door for him. It's the same thing, when a waitress fills your glass and you say "Arigato", if I was the waitress, I would feel really insulted and might say like "What are you? Emperor?". I never say "Arigato" to my parents. They will be furious. If you are in Japanese middle school/high school, and you say "Arigato" to senpai (1~2 year older), you will be in biiiiiiig trouble. "Arigato" is pretty much 'ue kara mesen'. It applies to Japanese companies, neighborhood, stores, restaurants...etc. "Arigato" can be used only among close friends, couples, from sempai to kohai, a boss to his secretary (maybe), or if you don't know each other then from obviously older person to younger person(more like obaa-chan says to kids). "Arigato" is used very carefully among native Japanese speakers. It's not exactly the same as English "Thank you". If someone holds a door for you, or fills your glass, it is appropriate to say "sumimasen" or "suimasen" or just bow. "sumimasen/suimasen" is not exactly an apology. Some might say "Arigato gozaimasu", but it sounds a bit awkward if you just hold a door for you or fill your glass. "Arigato gozaimasu" can be used when they really appreciate your help. The word "Arigato" is actually very difficult how to/when to/where to/who to use.
0
zichi
Mahiru Shiratori,
I was surprised when I moved to Kansai because many Japanese here just use "Arigato" except in a very formal setting. Maybe there's a casual difference between East and West Japan? The Kansai Ben "Ookini" is very common in my part of the woods?
0
tmarie
Mahiru, sorry but going to disagree with you. I get told arigato by folks for holding the door open to them, giving them seats on the the train... I hear it from Japanese people all the time in various situations which you have said saying it would be rude - sempai/kohai for example. By what you have written, these pepole are being rude to not only me, but to those I have heard them say it to.
More than happy to give and get a sumimasen or whatnot but walking through a door that is being held open for you and not acknowledging the person holding the door open is rude. Plain and simple. If anyone is acting as if they are the emperor, it is those people.
1
DS
I really don't care what people say, but say SOMETHING!! Arigato, san-kyuu, domo sumimasen, (guttural grunt), (raised eyebrow), (ducked head and brief twitch of the neck), anything.....
As for spontaneous generosity, it is rare. I do remember the whole "Tiger Mask" thing last year- anonymous donations to orphanages of cash/school bags/ supplies. It was touching and sincere and stopped after a month or so. No surprise that Japan ranks #119 of all nations in regards to charitable activity (the World Giving Index). Personal charity is a rare act, outside of throwing a few coins in the box for the latest disaster.
1
nigelboy
What's with this obsession with opening doors?? Seems like people are doing it just beause they want to be thanked.
What I witness in Japan is when somebody opens the door, the receipient either bows or say "suimasen" or both. In English speaking countries, it's "thank you" or "thanks" followed by "you're welcome" as though they're playing "right back at ya!" ping pong.
2
Nicky Washida
I think the whole opening doors thing is representative of manners as a whole in Japan - if you are a FOREIGNER. It irritates the hell out of me too. Our daycare building entrance has a really heavy door, and within the same building are some offices on different floors. Many times I have bee struggling to get the door open loaded down with bags, pushing a pram, two little ones in tow while the office workers just stood back watching me and waiting for me to get the door open. A few times I have even held the door open for a little kid, and they have simply pushed past and entered first!
They seem to think nothing of it.
On the other hand, from the Japanese perspective it is interesting - on the one hand they tell me the age old "It is not Japanese culture" / "This is Japan", (my husband even used the excuse that Japanese were "used to sliding doors"!) but on the other hand ask any Japanese woman interested/with a western guy what the attraction is and almost always they will bring up these basic manners - holding doors, holding chairs, standing up when you arrive/leave, etc - as one of the attractions. So which is it?
London in my opinion is one of the rudest cities on earth, but I still always without fail saw pregnant women/elderly/infirm people being offered seats on the train. It does happen here in Tokyo too, but not nearly as much as it should. I actually had to stand in a carriage and loudly request a seat once, trying to manage a tiny baby and struggling to stand up while everyone ignored me, including the guy we had just fallen on. I must have touched a raw nerve because virtually half the entire carriage jumped up at once and then I was left embarrassed at having about 15 seats to choose from!!!
I am horrified to discover my "arigato"s have been rude after all these years! I hope they will forgive me as a foreigner and assume I meant to convey my gratitude!
-4
tmarie
I think the door holding is just being used as an example because it is something that "we" foreigners often see as being kind/polite and it isn't something the locals do all that often. I could change it though to offering seats to the elderly and pregnant women, helping people with bags or who have dropped something, giving thanks to cashiers or waitresses, allowing people with a few things to go ahead of you at the grocery store (something I have NEVER witnessed here but have in various other countries...), offering to help someone who has fallen over... There are plenty of examples to pick from but I have to say, opening a door and getting no reply drives me nuts because it happens pretty much everyday. I won't however, stop keeping doors open for people because I would feel rude if I did so. As much as it drives me nuts not to get a reply, why stop? I taught better than that.
Nicky, my husband comes up with some great reasons as well - eye roll. He was shocked by our year out of Japan and how polite and helpful people are to each other. He now comments on how rude people are in Japan and he is now more vocal on things - has told a few kids to get out of the silver seats and the like. Give me manners in the UK anytime - polite and some really go out of their way to help!
And I still won't agree with the arigato thing. Sounds like an excuse my husband would come up when he disagrees and wants to use us vs them.
2
nigelboy
Strange tmarie. In my experience, i've experienced more of those bad manners that you cite more so in other countries than in Japan. Strange that a country with such lack of manners and civility can act the way they did during crisis. (Examples given in my previous post)
-4
tmarie
We've already commented on the crisis Nigelboy. And I will continue to disagree with the rosy pictures the media presented.
I'm certainly not saying Japan is the rudest country in the world but it certainly isn't anywhere near as "nice" as the writer seems to suggest. Far from it.
I find it strange that in your experience you don't see the bad manners that myself and others are talking about. Perhaps you are like the locals and keep your head down and look the other way?
4
nigelboy
You countered nothing tmarie. I simply let it go due to the absurdity of it. I wanted to leave it untouched.
I don't find it strange simply because it's the same rant I hear where bunch of gaijin ghetto talks about. These people for the most part never adjusted to Japan due to lack of language comprehension, frustration from not fitting in, to just poor attitude from the beginning.
Japanese manners, courtesy, or omoiyari is known throughout the world and it's not the Japanese who are reporting this but the rest of the world. Countering this fact by citing your so-called experience or making stuff up as you go isn't convincing anybody maybe except for the rare few I cited above (ghetto types) who happens to be the majority in this site.
-1
tmarie
Gaijin ghettos? You are making some rather large assumptions if you are assuming I'm a FOB gaijin who fits the description you've given above.
Japanese manners are indeed 'known" throughout the world. Just as how the women here are quiet and docile, the kids are really smart and study a lot, the tech is amazing... People who spend any amount of time in Japan will openly disagree with these stereotypes based on personal experience. The surface gift giving isn't "nice" it is guided by vast rules and culture, not whims of kindness. If the rules dictate that they must open the door for their sempai, they will. If they don't and you are "soto", expect the door to slam in your face.
1
nigelboy
Sorry tmarie.
You stated that there were crimes unreported by the media during the crisis especially in the affected area. I asked how you could have known if it's unreported. I further went on to give you statistics indicating the crimes were down during the time period especially the affected area. Then you went on about how you knew a person who came from there and that women gathered around with their children because they were afraid. I asked where the husbands were for at this point it was blatantly obvious that you were making stuff up as you go.
As for the generosity being somewhat a formality as opposed having actuall meaning, I tend to agree. But I tend to think it's just an extension of the natural generosity, manners, and omoiyari attitudes of this society in general which is also displayed in their top notch service industry.
Moderator
All readers back on topic please. Crimes are not relevant to this discussion. And nigelboy, don't ever accuse another reader of "making stuff up."
3
BlueWitch
So by this gross comment I have to assume that you and me are better than everybody in this forum because we are JAPANESE?! Are you serious? or just kidding? How disgraceful is to write something like that. Kindness, generosity, gentleness, love..has no race nor color nor creed...you know? You have to open your eyes more. Being Japanese is NOT a gift from the gods...you are just human, that's it. Simple as that. Please DO NOT look down on others. Respect to be respected. Thank You.
-1
tmarie
Wow Nigel, look who is making things up now! Lots of things to correct you on but as I stated before, the mod felt it wasn't on topic. And it isn't. Do a bit more research and you'll uncover some interesting stories I think.
Feel free to think that the omiyage you were given by your coworkers is them actually being nice and not an obligation.
Bluewitch, pretty much my feelings on the topic too - same reaction.
Moderator
Readers, please do not be impolite to one another.
0
Spidapig24
BlueWitch,
Couldnt agree with you more on your post. Politeness is not a Japanese thing but a person thing no matter where you are from. I have met some Japanese who are very polite and l have met some Japanese who are best described as impolite p**s, but that being said l have met people from all over like that. To claim superiority in terms of politeness just because one is Japanese as the writer has is actually the height of impoliteness.
0
BlueWitch
@tmarie
My sentiments EXACTLY!! Thank you so much for posting the truth. I also agree with Nicky and Cleo in many many things... Being Japanese does not mean anything. Just a nationality, not best or worse. It doesn't make you better or worse than others. Japanese blood is no blue, but red, just like everyone else's. I despise people that think "Japanese" is the most generous and polite in the world. No, they are not.
There are good and bad people everywhere. Rude and polite people everywhere. period.
0
BlueWitch
@Spidapig24
Thank you so much. I'm just being honest and you know, back in my villahe they say that the truth is like the sun light, you can't hide it with just the palm of your hand. The truth is the only thing that can set us free and make us happy.
There is sweet in this world but there is also sour. Nothing and nobody is perfect. You show me something perfect and I'll show you something that is not.
1
BlueWitch
I remember when I was pregnant with baby #3 and I rode the train to Tokyo to meet my husband. I was 8 months with this big belly and after waiting what it seem forever I finally sat down just to have the old man next to me grunt and hit me with his elbow on the left side of my belly. He was lucky I was pregnant and in shock, because I would have hit him back with my closed hand If I wasn't. Husband wasn't with me so I let it go for "his" own safety.
Another time, I was wearing kimono and I was on my way to 茶会 and it was raining so I was wearing cover-geta and somehow I stumbled and fell flat on the ground. One person came to my aid and helped me get on my feet again. I was really greatful for his kindness.
You see, there is both in this country. Let's stop painting Japan as superior because it is NOT. You reading, Makotoさん？
3
realdoll
Lets talk percentages... of course noone is claiming there was 100% organization, cooperation and manners. The Japanese didn't act like a bunch of American ghetto "you know whats" so lets not lump them in the same mold. There is no comparison. Maybe it is you that is trying to act superior by you're "we're all the same" attitude when you know it's not true.
-2
tmarie
You're right, there is no comparison so perhaps people should stop comparing? Not all the same? Indeed. I have never said we are.
Blue, agreeing with you as well!!
0
whiskeysour
To the writer - Charity and generosity is what keeps the world going !!!!!!
Generosity from other countries helped Japan get back on it's feet after the Earthquake.
I am one of those people that gives instead of recieving !!!! I've been teaching children in japan for years. I've always tried to lead by example for these kids to understand it's better to give than to recieve.
-1
Pukey2
情けは人のためならず
Nasake wa hito no tame narazu
I've always wondered what this Japanese kotowaza meant? Does it mean that you should be kind to others because you're hoping for something in return in the future? Hmm...
At the end of the day, there are horrible people and nice people in every country. No country has a monopoly on generosity.
3
nigelboy
And once again, the author isn't stating that because of different level of politeness, one culture is superior to another. If you believe so, then may someone cure your insecurities.
4
nigelboy
Tmarie,
But you're trying. Why don't you accept the fact that Japan, as a whole, is polite. If you want to measure politeness as some of sort of index to measure superiority over another, then it's quite obvious that it's you who are having this inferiority complex. I'm not afraid to admit that Western men, especially the English, are more gentlemen-like than Japan. This is one of many forms of politeness where you can plug in your cultural customs of opening doors as an example. But one could very much make an argument that such actions are not whims of kindness but is guided by "culture". Not doing so there is the "soto", "uchi" examples you gave about kohai and senpai. Once you travel to a another country for a period of time and then come back, you notice subtle things that you often don't see in your home countries. For example, bus driver announcing that he is about to make a turn so that standing passengers won't stumble. Taxi drivers turning off their headlights temporarily at the stop light so that the car in front of him doesn't get the glare. The last person who went on the elevator pushes the 'close' button first before he/she pushes the floor button. Tokkyuu train conductor announcing to the passengers for arriving at the station 30 seconds late. Phrases like "otsukaresamadesu" to your co-workers or your mail man. Phrases like "osewani natte orimasu" to your clients. Phrases likes "ojyama shima su" or "gomen kudasai" when you go to somebody's dwelling. The whole concept of "keigo" and "ojigi". Whether it's culturally practiced tradition passed on for generations or whether it's out of pure sincerity is irrelevant for the result is the same.
And once again, the author isn't stating that because of different level of politeness, one culture is superior to another. If you believe so, then may someone cure your insecurities.
0
HansNFranz
I also don't think "arigato" is such a top-down expression. Or if it is, then the Japanese teachers (all Japanese expats) back home didn't do their very well. Which is probably true. Even professional teachers of Japanese seem to be at a loss teaching the context when an expression should be used. For instance, I was never explainded (in 2 years of language training) that it's more natural to use "sumimasen" than "arigato gozaimasu" when interacting with strangers. No textbooks that I know of explain this either. "Sumimasen" is treached as being a casual apology, and "arigato" as thanks. Imagine my surprise on my first visit to Japan hearing everybody use "sumimasen" all the time and me trying to figure out why they are apologizing all the time. Of course, "sumimasen" is more fitting in public setting towards strangers, but it gets boring soon using only "sumimasen" when you have so much thanking and apologizing to do as you have to in Japanese everyday life. Japanese language teaching is in a bad state, is what I am basically trying to say - and this adds a layer of difficulty for new arrivals to Japan.
0
HansNFranz
If you think "western men" are more polite in general, a trip to Germany will set you straight in no time. I speak from experience. Coming to Japan from Germany, you can't believe your luck how polite everybody is. English people have very good manners - I always enjoy going to the UK for that reason, as for Americans, it depends on the city and social circle you move in.
-1
HansNFranz
****One thing I would like to have your guys opinion about: The one thing that irks me in Japan (I am pretty new here so I am not sure if it is real or just my imagination), is when you unintentionally block somebody's way, like on a busy sidewalk or at the subway gates, you sometimes get the "tsk", i.e. that sound you make by pressing your tongue against the roof of your mouth and then quickly releasing it (see here http://www.yourdictionary.com/tsk if you don't know which sound I am talking about).
The thing is, the people who give you the "tsk" never do it to your face, but always when they have just passed you by. This is striking me as the most cowardly rude behavior imaginable. If I did that at home to the wrong kind of guy, I would get my face done it in no time.
Is giving strangers the "tsk" more acceptable here, or am I just imagining things and was coincidentally blocking the way of people who were just busy sucking left over food from their teeth ;-) ?
1
cleo
Can't say I've ever really noticed the 'tsk' thing after someone has gone by... either it's your imagination, or maybe you need to stand over to the side more? Stop getting in folk's way? :-)
0
Blair Herron
Hans
http://www.wannagotojapan.com/travel-phrases/useful-phrases/thank-you-in-japanese/
http://www.learnjapanesefree.com/how-to-greet-people.html
0
HansNFranz
Thank you, Blair. This will be really helpful now as I only hold JLPT Level 2.
-6
tmarie
Nigel, perhaps we grew up in very, very different circumstances because I don't think Japan is any more polite or "nice" than where I grew up. I go home and am amazed at how people look after one another - total strangers helping people get bags from the plane, waiting to get off the plane.... I get back here? I get pushed on the plane by people trying to get off, people push to get their bags and I notice it right away that no, this place isn't polite. Sorry but no, I don't agree with you. Perhaps you've just lived in some really rude areas before coming to Japan? Maybe that is why you go on and on about how nice and polite it is here? It certainly isn't the worst place I have been to with regards to manners but for a country that bleats on like sheep about how nice and polite they are (as said in the article) it simply is laughable that they try to claim as much.
You've also given a bunch of examples that are not "polite" nor "nice". They are cultural and formalities. Just like yelling "welcome" at customers. Though they don't make eye contact, they don't smile... It isn't polite nor nice. It is what they are taught they must do. You don't seem to understand the difference between people following the "rules" and being nice.
2
bicultural
Too bad I didn't join in on this thread. My 2 cents : Yes, I agree that Japanese people don't say "thank you" when you open a door for them. However, I always get a slight nod / bow. To me, that means "thank you." I have also noticed that people living in the west part of Tokyo, in the cities outside the 23 wards, tend to be less polite or ruder. Don't know why. Just my observation.
4
mrkobayashi
tmarie, I don't know what country you're from but in mine I was taught to be polite by my parents. How can you judge if someone's heart is in the right place when they act polite?
-5
tmarie
Mrkobayashi, I can't always judge. However, when someone doesn't even bother to look up at me while yelling "welcome" it is pretty safe to say it isn't heartfelt. When I open doors for people I don't think it is "heartfelt" - I just open the door and keep it open for the people after me because I would feel I was being rude if I didn't. Same as when I give up my seat, help a fallen lady, help a lost kid look for his mom... It isn't "heartfelt" but to me, the the thing you just do. Not doing it would be mean - for lack of better word. I don't understand how people can see people walking in behind them and just shut the door. I don't get how people can stand themseleves when they see an old lady needing a seat but remain in theirs. Do you think it is heartfelt do offer some help in such a situation? I don't. Just normal to me. The thing is, it isn't normal here. Which is why I don't understand why the writer, nor some others, insist on saying that Japan is kind and polite.
Bi, perhaps this is it. I am outside the 23 wards and west. Maybe Nigel lives in the area you describe as polite? Could explain it. Though to be honest, I tend to find the people in the city rude while inaka folk for the most part are pretty kind. Gifu to me is the nicest place in Japan when it comes to the people.
2
Johannes Weber
This discussion about holding doors open and Japanese politeness takes on a few interesting turns. My personal motivation for holding open doors for people behind me is less being helpful - it's not a big feat after all - but being thoughtful. If the person behind me even registers that I have thought of her and cares, then she will either say thanks or nod or smile - and I can return such a small gesture. These small gestures are the essence which makes a stressful day tolerable. Me or she finally sit in the train or bus (or maybe even have to stand) and remember for a short moment the kindness received - a gesture, a nod, a thank you. That's basic stress relief. At least for me. It doesn't matter whether I help or whether I am helped - it simply makes a boring day a little brighter.
I must oppose HansNFranz on German rudeness. I am German and even though I cursed Germany and German officials while being there many times, I must admit that some of the treatment I received here made me reconsider my deep-seated disgust for German bureaucrats (since I have received and witnessed worse behaviour here). In Germany, superficial politeness is not guaranteed under most circumstances as it is here. In contrary, it depends on the person you are dealing with. Here, the formalised behaviour makes it quite hard to remember individual serviceable or friendly people. They are not supposed to create eye contact and establish any relation with you. This is perfect from the Japanese point of view, since they do not represent themselves but their company.
0
cleo
My personal motivation - though I'm not sure it qualifies for such a strong term - is simply doing for others what I would like them to do for me. Whether the other person thanks me or not is irrelevant.
If everyone did this.... It works the other way, too. I don't drop litter in the street because if everyone did it we'd be wading waist-high in rivers of litter. I don't expect anyone to thank me for taking my litter home, for not barfing on the street, for not letting my dog run loose, for not doing any of a myriad of things that would create chaos if everyone did them. It all boils down to Do unto others~ or not, as the case may be.
0
BlueWitch
@Johannes Weber
I don't know exactly what you went through, but I'm so sorry you had horrible treatment here I wish there was anti-racism laws in this country. How inhumane!
-5
tmarie
Well said Cleo!!
Is there where I also admit to telling people to pick up their garbage if I see them chuck it? I am going to turn into the cranky old cow sorting through everyone's garbage and complaining to them if their burnable are mixed with unburnables!! Knowing if half the battle??? ;)
Blue, can you please become PM??? Please!!?? I would vote for you! Oh wait, I can't...
5
nigelboy
Yes tmarie,
I guess we live in a different world for I've made an effort to assimilate, learn the language, and associate with common folks which I believe made my stay here much more enjoyable than those who did none of the above. It's a never ending cycle for them for their lack of effort will undoubtedly result in isolation which turns into negative views about almost anything in Japan. Every negative things that gets witnessed are amplified 100x.
I've witnessed people giving up seats to elders and pregnant women and I've seen people not giving up seat as well. This happens in all countries. Whether which country does this more frequently is your own personal interpretation but I must say, it's completely the opposite of what you claim. The examples I gave (bus driver, elevator, etc.) are unique to Japan based on my experience. In addition, in times of crisis, people's true nature comes out so that's why I mentioned some of the things the Tokyo people did which amazed the foreign people but it wasn't surprising for me. It's an extension of the politeness I generally experienced here so perhaps we are living in two different worlds.
4
luilui
Very interesting topic. I believe politeness (or lack of it) is a universal thing. Culture plays a big part though, as we tend to judge others in comparison to what we know from our own "culture" and upbringing. It's very easy to group or stereotype people from a certain country. We all do it, myself included. Politeness is also perceived differently with each country. So is the reaction to such politenes (like holding the door open for someone - a big thanks, or silent shock). It's hard not to judge. There are too many variables (sex, age, religion, upbringing, education, economic situation, etc.) to offer such a succint or 'correct answer'. There isn't one. That's why we all have different things to say about this topic and interpretations of Makoto's opinion.
Love her or hate her, I think Makoto is quite brave to write such a public blog. As she mentions, they are her own observations. In addition, she writes her experiences in English. Although we may not agree with some of the things she says, she does offer insight to what she perceives about her own people (Japanese) and that of Americans in America.
As a foreigner in Japan, I would say that I am surrounded by pretty kind people. But having said that, I have also had my fair share of "nasty" incidents. I never once thought that it was a "Japanese thing" when it happened though. For me, it was a "bad person" thing. Despite this, I am enjoying my life in Japan. :-)
-4
tmarie
Nigel, you're making a lot of assumptions yet again. Do you assume that I haven't learned the language, made the effort... because I disagree that Japan is the lalaland of manners and niceness? Are you assuming I dislike Japan because I am disagreeing with your views and the writer's views? That's a large leap and rather arrogant to think that only someone like you, who thinks the Japanese are light years ahead of other countries in politeness/niceness, could enjoy living here.
What exactly have Tokyo people done that 'amazed' you? Sorry, you really must have gone for a really rude country for the people of Tokyo to 'amaze' you with their manners.
Unique? I think you've been drinking the kool-aid a bit too much. Next you're going to start telling me about the wonderful four seasons and how unique they are here...
-3
cleo
What amazes me about Tokyo is that even after all this time I cannot stand staring at a train timetable or ticket vending board in Tokyo Station (or most other stations) for more than 20 seconds before some kind soul will ask if I need help. Nowadays I don't - I'm quite capable of reading timetables and following signs - but in the past when I was a clueless newbie I often had people go a long, long way out of their way to see that I, a total stranger who they would never see again, bought the right ticket and got on the right train. Sometimes my helper might grab the chance to slip in a quick freebie English lesson, but most times my samaritan either spoke very good English or little to no English and communicated in gestures and simple japanese, in either case making freebie English obviously not the reason for their kindness.
1
bicultural
Got to agree with that comment, and I'd like to add more. As I mentioned, people living in the "shitamachi" area of Tokyo are quite kind and friendly. I've had random people talk to me at intersections, while walking around the neighborhood ... even some combini ladies have struck up a short conversation with me. This never happened when I was living in the west part of Tokyo. Another example : my wife took the Seibu Ikebukuro line to visit someone with her baby, and not one person gave up their seat for her. This was not during rush hour. When we take the subways in Tokyo, someone will always give up their seat for her (going back to when she was pregnant).
-4
tmarie
Cleo, where are these people when I am there? More than once I have stood there trying to figure out what train ticket to get as I find Tokyo impossible to understand with all the private railways that connect with each other. I am often that 'country bumpkin" who bought the wrong ticket and the alarm goes off when I try and exit! Oh the shame!!
I generally find "real" Tokyo people to friendly. The country bumpkins however, who seem to think they are big shots living in the big city however, are a different story. That being said, I find Tokyo on a whole much friendlier than Nagoya, Osaka and Fukuoka very friendly but as I said before, the people in Gifu win hands down! Friendly, chatty, smile a lot... Just a nice place to visit - and they have great onsens and food! Perhaps that is why they are all so happy?
4
Mahiru Shiratori
There has been so much to learn for me from other people's opinions and experience. It's true that Japanese public manner is worse than western countries. It's embarrassing to have "silver seats" on trains and a train conductor's announcement that says "Please give your seat to elderly, pregnant women". It's embarrassing to have to put up the posters that say "Don't touch women's butt on the train. It's a crime." It's embarrassing to have "Women only trains" during rush hour. Those are the things that Japanese are at least aware of and trying to fix it. But things that Japanese are not aware of is "holding a door for the people coming behind" as many posters here complain. I remember several years ago or more, when we used escalators, we did not make space for people who were in a hurry. But now we stand on the left side and make space on the right side so that people in a hurry can run down/up faster. I believe the idea is from the west. Also when we use the public bathroom, we make one line and wait. It wasn't like that before. The idea is from the West, too. Many Japanese people travel abroad and experience this kind of manner and we like it. That's why we've started doing it. I'd like to believe Japanese people still have HOPE for "holding a door for the people behind". Many of them must have experienced this manner overseas and liked it. Sometimes some people do it whether they learned it from their trip to the west, or maybe they just do it. But the number is still very low. Most of us are not aware that "not holding a door" is a bad manner. But when we experience someone hold it, we like it. Then hopefully more and more people will start doing it, too. It's just a door thing, but doing a little nice thing makes better and happier society:)
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