'Stop and frisk' policy polarizes New York

by REUTERS

Opinions Jul. 14, 2012 - 05:59AM JST ( 34 )

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34 Comments

1

NeverSubmitJul. 14, 2012 - 07:33AM JST

Police State

At least the Gestapo had the decency to say please when they said "Papers Please".

These days the cops don't even bother to be civil. You're presumed guilty and only by submitting to their every command will they leave you alone, albeit temporarily.
1

bass4funkJul. 14, 2012 - 08:27AM JST

Stupid talk! Do you know what the average death rate was in NY city before they implemented "Stop and Frisk?" Why do you the crime rate was reduced so drastically? Now compare that to Chicago, the city is out of control. NY city is 4 times bigger and a whole lot fewer homicides compared to Chicago, it's unbelievable, no one ever addresses the issue, especially the liberal media. You would think that since Chicago is way out of control they would start to do start "stop and frisk" or that Obama (being that's his home state) would say something, but NO, complete silence. Neversubmit, you always amaze me, really. What else are they supposed to do, ask them politely, "please Mr, dude, can we check your sagging pants if there is a weapon inside?" If NY gets sued and they stop the "Stop and Frisk" program, you watch the murder rate go back up, you watch! Then you will see NY the way it was back in the 70's and if you have lived there during that time, you know what I am talking about! So the people need to make a choice as to what they want? If that means, you need to inconvenience some people a bit in order to keep the majority safe, then I am all for it.
-2

gaijinfoJul. 14, 2012 - 09:28AM JST

“It’s not the stop-and-frisks that we’re upset about,” said Jay Bradley, 49, another black woman. “It’s the stupidity of the stops.”

How else are the police to decide who to stop? Profiling is the only way. Criminals are not evenly scattered about the population and demographics, so the cops do the best they can.

I suspect that each cop has some kind of "quota" of how many people he or she has got to frisk. And naturally, to fulfill their quota as painlessly and quickly as possible, they go after easy targets.

Of course, if this were all private property, and not government projects and low income housing, then it would be a different story. Private security would maximize their efficiency, as they would have to balance the safety with the comfort of living there. Not enough security and nobody would live there, and they'd lose money. Too much security, or too intrusive security, and nobody would live there and they'd lose money.

The private market would find the best solution.
-4

zichiJul. 14, 2012 - 10:15AM JST

How many guys do they stop and frisk on Wall St, they are the biggest criminals in NY, and many are probably carrying little plastic bags of white powder?
4

RecklessJul. 14, 2012 - 10:37AM JST

These are overwhelmingly black neighborhoods, so how is it profiling? Anyways go to one of these neighborhoods and you will pray to Gosh that you see a police officer, I guarantee it.
-2

Nullification_1798Jul. 14, 2012 - 10:40AM JST

Mayor Bloomberg is enthralled with Obama's TSA Nanny State. He wants it for New York.
4

NeverSubmitJul. 14, 2012 - 11:05AM JST

I hope Americans know that they have a constitutional right to refuse a pat-down or strip search.

If you've done nothing wrong a police officer has no right to touch your body.

Stand up for your rights, otherwise they'll be slowly taken away.
1

mrmaliceJul. 14, 2012 - 05:48PM JST

for once, all those people with expensive smartphones can use them for something other than just looking smart. police the police, after all, if they got nothing to hide, they shouldn't care, right? Isn't that what they always say when placing cameras everywhere ?
1

lostrune2Jul. 14, 2012 - 06:08PM JST

It's easy for people to say what's what when they don't even wanna live there.
1

Frank VaughnJul. 14, 2012 - 07:09PM JST

NeverSubmitJul. 14, 2012 - 11:05AM JST

I hope Americans know that they have a constitutional right to refuse a pat-down or strip search.

If you've done nothing wrong a police officer has no right to touch your body.

Stand up for your rights, otherwise they'll be slowly taken away

.

NeverSubmit, lets start with everyone's favorite people to hate, the registered sex offenders, through "regulations" (not laws) as the Supreme Court calls them, those people have had just about all of their due-process rights removed. Unfortunately what is happening in New York appears to be a continuation of this behavior by the powers in charge, and since they legally do it to one group of people it is easy to continue it to another group of people. Police all over the U.S. now use that reasonable suspicion to stop anyone they feel like and there appears to be nothing the citizens can do about it.
-3

bass4funkJul. 15, 2012 - 01:49AM JST

I hope Americans know that they have a constitutional right to refuse a pat-down or strip search.

If you've done nothing wrong a police officer has no right to touch your body.

Stand up for your rights, otherwise they'll be slowly taken away.

Yes, you have that right, but the police officer also has the right to take you in if you don't comply and once you are at the police station, then for sure they will make you comply, so either way, if the officer wants to "stop and frisk" you, resisting and invoking your rights won't help you squat! Has nothing to do with doing something wrong or not, if the police has a suspicion, then they can act on it accordingly. I always say, if you have nothing to hide, let them, the sooner you let them search you, the quicker you'll be on your way. Stop living in the theoretical and face the reality.
2

JTDanManJul. 15, 2012 - 02:26AM JST

Never Submit

I hope Americans know that they have a constitutional right to refuse a pat-down or strip search

This may be the way you feel things ought to be, but your feelings are not in line with the law. Specifically, the Supreme Court's rulings on what we now call Terry Stops. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_stop

Under this ruling and supplemental cases, a police officer does indeed have the right to stop and frisk someone when the police have "reasonable suspicion," but lack "probable cause." As you can imagine, reasonable suspicion is an imprecise standard: [police must be able to point to *specific and articulable facts * that would indicate to a reasonable person that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed.

Those specific and articulable facts that make up reasonable suspicion depend on the "totality of circumstances." What ever that means.

In practice, it means police have a wide latitude of discretion here. Someone's "nervousness" plus the time of day and "place" = reasonable suspicion.

But police may not strip search during a Terry Stop. Pat down, yes. "Plain feel" yes. Manipulate, no, Hands in your pocket, no. Strip search, no.

The reason for our current doctrine is simple: 5 people on the Supreme Court made it up when interpreting the 4th Amendment. They have an interesting rationale, if you are interested, but they always do...

If you wish to "fight for your rights" you need to get the 5 people on the Court to see it your way.
0

NeverSubmitJul. 15, 2012 - 06:41AM JST

Yes, you have that right, but the police officer also has the right to take you in if you don't comply and once you are at the police station, then for sure they will make you comply, so either way,

Are you talking about America or North Korea?

What do you mean by make you comply?

If you've done nothing wrong you're under no obligation to kowtow to any law enforcement officer. Of course you should provide them due respect and you should never physically resist but you are entitled to stand up for your rights.

That includes undue search and seizure.

If a law enforcement officer takes you into custody for refusing to submit and then tries to "make" you comply then I suggest you call a lawyer and take precise notes of what the officer says and does.

And there's nothing wrong with demanding your rights, privacy and humane treatment even if you've done nothing wrong.
-2

bass4funkJul. 15, 2012 - 09:08AM JST

Are you talking about America or North Korea?

Don't get cute.

What do you mean by make you comply?

As in listening and following his authority.

If you've done nothing wrong you're under no obligation to kowtow to any law enforcement officer. Of course you should provide them due respect and you should never physically resist but you are entitled to stand up for your rights.

You can make that argument, but if the officer wants to frisk you, you will comply or he'll just run you in, which at that time, you can get a lawyer and make a case of the arresting officer, but there is no way that just because it doesn't sit well with you to listen to the police doesn't mean, they'll just let you walk because YOU say so.

That includes undue search and seizure.

If they feel there is probable cause, you will be searched.

If a law enforcement officer takes you into custody for refusing to submit and then tries to "make" you comply then I suggest you call a lawyer and take precise notes of what the officer says and does.

Now you are making sense!

And there's nothing wrong with demanding your rights, privacy and humane treatment even if you've done nothing wrong.

No argument here! So if you are nice compliant and follow what the officer is telling you, you be on your way in a heartbeat, if you don't, you will drag it out and your day is going to be ruined. So it depends on you, being stubborn and a smart-*** to a cop never helped no one, because if he locks you up, you will sit in jail and the cop will go home to his family at the end of the day and you need to wait.
1

Frank VaughnJul. 15, 2012 - 02:05PM JST

No argument here! So if you are nice compliant and follow what the officer is telling you, you be on your way in a heartbeat, if you don't, you will drag it out and your day is going to be ruined. So it depends on you, being stubborn and a smart-*** to a cop never helped no one, because if he locks you up, you will sit in jail and the cop will go home to his family at the end of the day and you need to wait.

******bass4funk****** Lets not forget that they can ruin more than just one day of your innocent life since a person can be held for up to 72 hours before they have to charge you or let you go. And once you've "stood up for your rights" you have made yourself a target for further suspicion of anything they can think of. Then of course all of your personal data, fingerprints, photograph and possibly a DNA sample all go to the criminal database once you've been taken into custody.

NeverSubmit The U.S. has become a police state especially for any one who is NOT a white male in a three-piece suite. Everything bass4funk and others have written can also happen if you also stand up for your rights and refuse to identify yourself as well.
2

NeverSubmitJul. 15, 2012 - 03:15PM JST

The situation in the US will continue to get worse until more people take a stand and demand the rights that their guaranteed under the constitution.

If it takes a legal battle than so be it. But no matter what they say you do have the absolute right to refuse a search. And if they take you in and try to beat you into submission then stand your ground and sue them afterwards.

Grow a pair and be a man. The cops aren't your masters, you are theirs. They are public servants and they work for you.

If you've committed no crime then don't let yourself be treated life a criminal. You deserve dignity and respect.
0

Frank VaughnJul. 15, 2012 - 05:30PM JST

I think I may have come across as disagreeing with you, that was not the intent, you are correct people need to stand up for their rights. What I meant to point out is the sad reality of the situation in the U.S.

One of the founding fathers, Mr. Thomas Jefferson has been quoted as saying:

Those who trade freedom for security shall have neither.

Sadly since the 9-11-2001 terrorist attacks people have been trading their freedom for what the perceive as security and now there is less of both.
2

JohhnyGlitterballJul. 15, 2012 - 05:37PM JST

Truth and justice the American way.
4

Ranger_Miffy2Jul. 15, 2012 - 08:03PM JST

The America I knew and respected vanished soon after 9/11. Hijacked by Bush and his buddies and their agenda...This is not the movies where the good guys win. I think the bad guys have won. Will be only too pleased to be proven wrong, but at this point, it is not going to be pretty in the USA for a loooooooooong time.
2

BertieWoosterJul. 15, 2012 - 09:23PM JST

Aah, America.

The land of the free! (sarcasm)
-2

bass4funkJul. 15, 2012 - 09:29PM JST

@Neversubmit

Frank said it right, you can battle all you want, your rights are guaranteed, but at the same time, freedom is NOT a green light that you think you have the right to do as you please or you don't have to comply. I have never had a problem with the police in America, as a matter of fact half of my friends are cops in L.A. they are nice and honest and they are easy going, they tell you to do something don't argue. I have seen people refuse to be searched and guess what, they never, ever win. Again, if you did nothing wrong and he thinks he needs to search you for whatever reason, comply and you'll be on your way. If they beat you, it's usually because you brought it on themselves. I have been on numerous ride alongs and. I noticed that people that complied with the officers never had a problem, those that make a stand like you always get the short end of the stick and cops love it when you act like a fool, it gives them a reason to check up on you and now you are opening up a whole mess for yourself, DON'T GIVE THEM A REASON. You don't like how they handled you, get a lawyer, that's what they're there for.

@Ranger I think you are mistaken, America was fine even during that horrible day. Bush wasn't perfect, but compared to where we are with the current President for the last almost 4 years, HE has single-handedly brought down the entire country! Look at Chicago where Obama is from. Do you know what the murder rate is? The America I knew died when this President stopped caring. He has NEVER said anything about the crime rate in Chicago. Where is Sharpton, where is Jackson, I don't even hear anything from Farrakhan. Son on that point you are right, it won't be pretty for a very long time in the US.
-2

bass4funkJul. 15, 2012 - 09:34PM JST

@Ranger, Neversubmit

This is reason why "Stop and Frisk" does work! You outlaw that and you'll see the murder rate in NY creep right back up and it might even surpass Chicago for sure. You think NY became a lot safer because the thugs had a change of heart? Decided to go straight? Why is it that Liberals NEVER, EVER get it.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/02/chicago-murder-rate-surges-as-new-york-s-drops-to-record-low.html
2

ShimagaichaJul. 15, 2012 - 09:40PM JST

bass4funk

I completely agree with you about Obama.

About the police, you have a point, but I do not think that all those who have problems bring it upon themselves.

I wonder what you think about the TSA?
0

SerranoJul. 15, 2012 - 09:42PM JST

"harrassment from residents, many waiting for welfare checks"

This is not surprising.

Mayor Bloomberg: "New York is "America's safest city by far"

This is foreboding.
-2

bass4funkJul. 15, 2012 - 11:34PM JST

@Shimagaicha

I should correct myself, yes, you are right. Not everyone looks for trouble. You do have rogue cops out there and sometimes things happen beyond our control. I was referring to the majority of the time.

As far as the TSA is concerned. I think the whole system is out of whack and they are just some of THE most untrained, disorganized agency ever to exist!
-2

NeverSubmitJul. 16, 2012 - 05:41AM JST

You have no obligation to comply with an unconstitutional demand from law enforcement.

Even if some of cops are no doubt very nice guys.

The personality of the police is not the issue.

Innocent people are legally, constitutionally and morally entitled to refuse a demand for a body search.

It's possible to stand your ground on your rights and still be civil and respectful to the police. Lawyers know this well at a lot of them scoff at how easily and quickly people kowtow to unconstitutional requests by police.

Police officers are conscious if this too. They know that if you willingly comply with an unconstitutional request you forgo your rights voluntarily. The police are even trained to use a stern tone of voice to make it seem that they indeed have legal authority of you. Unless you've committed a crime and they have reasonable suspicion or evidence thereof or a claim from another party they can't boss you around. Don't let em.
-1

bass4funkJul. 16, 2012 - 06:49AM JST

You have no obligation to comply with an unconstitutional demand from law enforcement.

Even if some of cops are no doubt very nice guys.

The personality of the police is not the issue.

Innocent people are legally, constitutionally and morally entitled to refuse a demand for a body search.

It's possible to stand your ground on your rights and still be civil and respectful to the police. Lawyers know this well at a lot of them scoff at how easily and quickly people kowtow to unconstitutional requests by police.

Police officers are conscious if this too. They know that if you willingly comply with an unconstitutional request you forgo your rights voluntarily. The police are even trained to use a stern tone of voice to make it seem that they indeed have legal authority of you. Unless you've committed a crime and they have reasonable suspicion or evidence thereof or a claim from another party they can't boss you around. Don't let em.

And that's the reason why people like you would always lose against a police officer and get handcuffed and dragged into a police station for being a hard nose. As I said before, I have seen this a dozen times, people like you shouting "you can't do this to me" and the result is always, always the same, same outcome. I don't know where you come from. To a point what you say is true in theory, but you have to factor in some things and it will all depend on how you behave, attitude, whether there was a bench warrant, if you are obstructing a public or private area in any way that may harm or impede a business or operation and many, many variables. So it just depends. Stand your ground, but don't pick a fight, if the officer says, I want to search your car and he/she has probable cause and you let them, you will be off in no time, painless and quickly, defy them and you'll be sitting on the curb for a while and why, because you started to be a smart mouth. See, the real problem is, you are looking at this from a citizens position, I see it from a cops position, there are 2 positions, but as usual. typical how most liberals just always >

see it from the citizen point of view. There are a lot of crazy people out there and how do I know as a cop you are not a loon or a threat. I asked you to do something and you want to give me a lecture? How do I know if you are hiding something or if you are doing something shady? I have to be cautious and I have a family that I want to go back to, so I am not taking any chances. Do as I say, or you will be cuffed and put in a back seat. I have the badge and the authority and if you don't like it, once you are sitting in a jail cell, call your lawyer and take it from there. Or you just want to physically get into a fight with the cop. I can already tell you whose going to lose.
0

NeverSubmitJul. 16, 2012 - 05:09PM JST

bass4funk;

You seem to be saying that indeed it's wrong to body search innocent people but that it's best to submit to authority because they're big and strong and they might hurt us if we stand up for the rights that we're entitled to.

I respect the police, but I refuse to fear them.
0

Frank VaughnJul. 16, 2012 - 08:29PM JST

NeverSubmitJul. 16, 2012 - 05:09PM JST

bass4funk;

You seem to be saying that indeed it's wrong to body search innocent people but that it's best to submit to authority because they're big and strong and they might hurt us if we stand up for the rights that we're entitled to.

I respect the police, but I refuse to fear them

That is correct, what they do is wrong by the Bill of Rights and Constitution, but because they have the power to make our lives miserable it is best to give them their 5 minutes of whatever and then go on your way making sure to document everything and then make a complaint later if you must. There is no reason to fear them if you have done nothing wrong, but you have every right to despise them, but keep that to yourself and your friends not the cop(s) who did whatever to you or your right back to having hours to days of your life ruined by them.
1

LostinNagoyaJul. 16, 2012 - 09:38PM JST

As a non-American I support this policy 100%. I visited NY in 2009 and walked blocks after midnigh. I felt completely safe returning to the hotel at dawn. I had this idea that NY was a dangerous place to stroll or walk around. I left the city feeling that NY is the best city I have ever been to and now I recommend NY instead of LA to all my people I know when they go the USA. I myself am planning a 2nd visit late this year.
-1

bass4funkJul. 17, 2012 - 10:13AM JST

@Neversubmit

you don't have to fear them, if you comply. You should always stand up for your rights, but when you are ordered to disperse then that is what you need to do and if you don't listen, you shouldn't be surprised by the consequences. Don't necessarily blame the officer trying to uphold the law, look at your own defiant actions. This is why the Wall st. protesters got into such a mess with the police, polluting, fornicating, assaults, reports of rape, drugs, sex and you think when the police tell you to go , you have the right to defy them at that point?!

@Frank

100% exactly! Always keep a cool head, mentally show them the finger, keep quiet, let it blow away and call your lawyer and make a formal complaint. It's the smartest thing and you can do.
-2

bass4funkJul. 17, 2012 - 10:20AM JST

@Lost

Yes, that is the whole point. You can't have a city or society running amok! There needs to be some order. The "Stop and Frisk" programed saved a lot of lives, a lot. Because before it was implanted, the murder rate in NY was off the charts crazy. But as you said, the criminals gave up on carrying concealed weapons because they don't want to take that chance of getting caught. But liberals would have you believe that it is intrusive and violating their civil rights, but getting shot and or being mugged isn't violating mine? Liberals don't want accountability for anything, just a free and open society that lets you do whatever you want and whenever you want. NY changed a lot since I was a child. I'm from LA and I really wish they would "Stop and Frisk" more often as well.
-2

NeverSubmitJul. 17, 2012 - 06:10PM JST

A police officer is not upholding the law when they search you unconstitutionally.

I'll calmly and respectfully remind the offending cop of my constitutional rights if he tries to body search me illegally.
-1

bass4funkJul. 18, 2012 - 07:19AM JST

A police officer is not upholding the law when they search you unconstitutionally.

I'll calmly and respectfully remind the offending cop of my constitutional rights if he tries to body search me illegally.

Nothing wrong with that. I would too, but follow the officers instructions, peacefully protest and take proper action later. That is the best way to dealing with the police if you feel that they did something unjust towards you.