Okinawans rally in Ginza

Demonstrators shout slogans against U.S. bases and the deployment of U.S. Marine Corps’ MV-22 Osprey aircraft in Okinawa during a rally in Tokyo’s Ginza district on Sunday. See story here.

  • -1

    YuriOtani

    Good they are demonstrating in Tokyo against US Bases and Osprey. This is democracy in action!

  • 3

    Xeno23

    Osprey base = rape? Interesting. Perhaps we should rid the entire world of Osprey bases, then no rape! Wonderful!

  • 13

    NZ2011

    I would simply say, Im glad we live in a place where you can demonstrate and have freedom of speech and movement. For that good on them if thats how they feel.

    The caveat being, be careful what you wish for, in the article above this one you have the defence minister suggesting a 0.1% increase in defence while the very types of people very likely in this demonstration having just voted in a government which is likely to cause more (right or wrong) tension in the region.

    Like it or not the American bases are undoubtedly are a major deterrent for aggressors in the area.

    I understand there has been problems with some of the military but why are there always all or nothing suggestions thrown around, perhaps some cultural and language lessons for the military and some effort from the locals to better support not just these foreigners but others that come to the country will see Japan grow to a world leader once again as with the decreasing birthrate and flailing economy Japan needs all the help it can get. ( though of course the standard required for people living here should be very high absolutely but for that you have to make it a viable choice to come here)

    I wish they were demonstrating against some of the home made issues just as strongly, merry go round leadership, an education system producing people for a system of business that does exist, massive corporate fraud, etc etc etc.. sometimes a look in the mirror is very valuable.

  • 2

    humanrights

    Notice its only old people who protest! That says it all. The old proud mentality of JP. Demonstrations are good, but they have to at least make sense. Bring a realistic solution, not simply 'Get out'. I hear this all to often in JP, which is an old Pre-War mentality, look where that got them. JP is in more danger now than ever before from all fronts and you want us to 'Get out'? Be careful what you wish for. When all is done they is the point of no return. Your reputation in the World already precedes you, Japan. The biggest losers will be 'your Children and Grand-Children'

  • 5

    cabadaje

    Good they are demonstrating in Tokyo against US Bases and Osprey. This is democracy in action!

    No, it's freedom of speech in action. Democracy in action would be this crowd heading on over to Tokyo and getting the government to do what it wants.

    One is just talk, the other one includes action.

  • 11

    TheInterstat

    Haha, I think the US should agree with these people and get out of Japan.

    Then see what happens.

  • 4

    Yubaru

    The title is misleading to say the least, sure there were some Okinawans protesting but the overwhelming majority of people were not from Okinawa and FINALLY the folks got it right. Okinawa is not the place to be protesting about the bases or the Osprey or about anything to do with the US Military in Japan.

    It took them long enough to get it right. Now let's see if it continues and how the government responds. The US Military in Japan is not just an Okinawan issue, it concerns all Japanese and all Japanese should play a part in deciding whether or not they want the bases here or not.

    If they decide they do want the bases then other prefectures have a responsibility as well to bear the burden.

    Notice its only old people who protest! That says it all. The old proud mentality of JP.

    Nothing to do with the mentality of the old in Japan, not at all. It comes from the people who experienced war and don't want to see the country put into the same postion or experience it again. Have to give them credit for standing up for their beliefs and they deserve respect whether one agrees with them or not.

  • 3

    osakajoe

    Haha, I think the US should agree with these people and get out of Japan. Then see what happens.

    Yes! Build up selfdefence forces with no need of US military! But still keep relations with the US for "world-peace". No free country should need to have US bases in their own soil.

    I think the US will be a very "small" country if they lost all the US bases around the planet and financial investment in the US is stopped. History show us the americans is strong only if wars are keeping "alive" around the globe. The world should just close the doors to american politics.

  • 2

    Wakarimasen

    US should leave and allow Japan to defend itself (if it can). WE all know how reasonable governemts in Asia are. The picture in Weekend FT of Japanese MP bowing low to Chinese PM said it all.

  • 4

    Yubaru

    US should leave and allow Japan to defend itself (if it can). WE all know how reasonable governemts in Asia are. The picture in Weekend FT of Japanese MP bowing low to Chinese PM said it all.

    This kind of thinking is idiotic at best. There are only a handful of nuts that want the US out of Japan. The reality is that in the current political climate in Asia it serves everyone's best interests in keeping the US here in Japan.

    Until the time that the people in the region can get along with each other without acting like children, Japan included, the US is not going to leave.

  • 3

    Michael Jun Sung Shim

    US not welcomed in Japan? Then let Koreans welcome the U.S.Army into S Korea.The threat that Seoul faces Militarily from N Korea seems to become more dangerous day by day! 28,500 US Army presence in S Korea is way Too small number to fend off N Korean military threat so Koreans NEED more US Armed forces to safeguard Itself from N Korea!

  • 7

    ChibaChick

    I wish they were demonstrating against some of the home made issues just as strongly, merry go round leadership, an education system producing people for a system of business that does exist, massive corporate fraud, etc etc etc.. sometimes a look in the mirror is very valuable.

    Agreed. Where is the outrage at some of the crap that has gone down in the last year? Massive corporate fraud. Bullying suicides. Corrupt policing. Cosy nuclear clean up company ties to government. And yet they protest about the Osprey base.

    I for one am sick of seeing and hearing Japanese complain about all things foreign, while their own government runs them into the ground. What do they seriously think life would be like around here without the American bases? Lets try it and see.

  • 1

    motytrah

    As an American, i'm fine with letting Japan and Korea defend themselves. I don't think the money when get from the host nations comes close to covering out actual expenses. Which is the reason I don't think they'll even ask the US to leave.

    The Osprey is a POS in my opinion. They made a number of design compromises in order to produce a plane the marines could use on an aircraft carrier. A number of reports blame the rotors being too close to why there have been more crashes than expected. I wish I could get our money back.

    On a practical matter let's say things escalate between China and Japan. The US is obligated to enter the battlefield. We'll need money in order to do that. The current "bagman" for US debt is ... China. So yeah. On the other hand China getting into a war would crush their international markets both in North America and Europe.

  • -12

    YuriOtani

    Yes Michael sending the US Forces forward to The Republic would make sense. After what has happened with them and the Republic of China think their problems are not ours. Japan needs to become NEUTRAL in the affairs of those two. Both countries hate Japan so much and either one is not worth the live of a Japanese National. If Japan would let the Americans use their bases to attack the Peoples Republic of China or The Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea, we would open Japan to attack from one or both. Am not worried about the Republic of Korea the Army of the North is starving and has weapons that are beyond obsolete. The Republic of China will have to make due. I want to grow rice on my families land and for Okinawa to be 100 percent Okinawan. Okinawa not having American bases will take us off of the target list. Japan will either survive or fail on own own efforts. This might mean compromise and not getting all of the islands. Perhaps someone will listen to my words and put this behind us with agreement.

  • -5

    WA4TKG

    ECONOMIC Factoid: If you CLOSE EVERY Base on Okinawa, you will put THOUSANDS MORE Okinawans OUT of WORK. FACT: Okinawan LAND Owners do NOT ALL want their LAND back!; my Father = in = Law for ONE. One more little tidbit for thought. If you DID close all the bases, you BETTER start learning to speak either Chinese or Korean. ar n k

  • 0

    Sheena Justice-Williams

    Only old people. You know the some of the young people like Americans.

  • 3

    Disillusioned

    It is interesting they are using rape as a stand for their protest/ From memory there has only been three or four rapes in Okinawa committed by US servicemen. How does this compare to how many were raped by Okinawan men?

  • -3

    Tony Ew

    America should 'disinvite herself' and go elsewhere like Guam! Get away from Okinawa and other places in the First Island Chains and project her Pesky Pacific Power from Guam. Let Asians settle disputes themselves. China and N Korea hates American meddling in their backyard. Once further away, I think China and N Korea will be much more cooperative in dealing with their neighbors.

  • -2

    brknarm

    Please, please, please stop with the 'Japanese/Okinawans rape too' rationale. I understand the point, but at least come up with a better argument.

  • -1

    Probie

    No Rape, No Osprey

    Really...?

    I understand that they don't want the Ospreys there, but rape has nothing to do with it. It's only a few idiot gunts. Were no rapes carried out by Japanese people in Okinawa?

    Oh, and was this rally only for the over 60's or something?

  • -1

    Probie

    It comes from the people who experienced war and don't want to see the country put into the same postion or experience it again.

    Well then, they're barking up the wrong tree. The U.S. bases here and the defense partnership between the U.S, and Japan is probably the main reasons why there isn't a Chinese flag on the Senkaku islands right now. If anything, if they "don't want to see the country put into the same postion or experience it again", they should be happy that the U.S. is here. Because any war in the future, isn't going to be with the U.S.

  • -2

    Probie

    Please, please, please stop with the 'Japanese/Okinawans rape too' rationale. I understand the point, but at least come up with a better argument.

    It's just as silly as the bases= rape arguement.

  • 1

    TravelingSales

    Last time the US started a major pullback from the Western Pacific was 1946 - 50. Anyone happen to remember how peacefully the NKs and Chinese responded?

  • 6

    smithinjapan

    Morons! The bases and rapes in Okinawa are not causal--there are FAR more rapes committed by Japanese than US military, so if they're honestly concerned with rape issues (in a language they likely can't understand well, for that matter) they should be looking at Japanese society. Anyway, probably most of these protestors voted LDP--the party now low-towing to the US more than ever--so they're only going to see the twice promised base move forward. Suck it up, people; the US is there for your protection.

  • -5

    BertieWooster

    Yubaru,

    Well said!

    In the Tokyo demonstration:

    the overwhelming majority of people were not from Okinawa

    True!

    Okinawa is not the place to be protesting about the bases or the Osprey or about anything to do with the US Military in Japan.

    Exactly!

    Take it to Tokyo.

    The US Military in Japan is not just an Okinawan issue, it concerns all Japanese

    Right!

    Nothing to do with the mentality of the old in Japan, not at all.

    I watched the demo on the internet. It certainly was not all "old people." I think they took this photograph to try to give that impression. It was a very mixed bunch.

    And, as you say, there are those who have experienced not only war, but pre-WWII Okinawa where Okinawans were hideously mistreated by the Japanese, then WWII when Japanese soldiers forced thousands of Okinawans to commit suicide and many more thousands were killed or got caught in the cross fire from US forces and the 1945-1972 years of US occupation when rapes and violence didn't make it to news media.

    Also, as the Mayor of Naha pointed out in a recent meeting, Okinawa is suffering financially with US bases occupying so much of its land. Those areas that used to be bases are now making 15-20 times more money for Okinawa and for Japan.

    The US military needs to get off this island.

    Abe has to listen.

  • -1

    BertieWooster

    Tony Ew-san,

    America should 'disinvite herself' and go elsewhere like Guam!

    Right, they should!

    Japan has already paid 600 million dollars to help with this, but a) it got used for something else and b) Guam won't have the US military at any price, nor will Hawaii.

    And, it's only a matter of time before they are out of Okinawa.

    These demonstrations are going to escalate.

    Tokyo can't ignore it any longer.

  • 0

    BertieWooster

    Sheena-Justice-Williams,

    Only old people. You know the some of the young people like Americans.

    Yes, of course they do. In fact, there is very little anti-US feeling here.

    Young or old, people don't hate Americans.

    What they hate is US Military.

    Especially in Okinawa where they use up such a huge proportion of the land.

  • 0

    BertieWooster

    WA4TKG-san,

    If you CLOSE EVERY Base on Okinawa, you will put THOUSANDS MORE Okinawans OUT of WORK.

    Sorry, but this is an economic fallacy.

    In a recent meeting in Naha Town Hall, the Mayor of Okinawa announced figures that show that land that used to be occupied by the US and that has been returned to Okinawa has created thousands more jobs and increased the revenue 15 times in the case of Shintoshin and 20 times in the case of Chatan Hamby Town.

  • -1

    BertieWooster

    Michael Jun Sung Shim,

    US not welcomed in Japan? Then let Koreans welcome the U.S.Army into S Korea.

    As I'm sure you know.

    US forces are not welcomed in Korea either.

  • 1

    Wonbatto

    Does anyone know if a report exists clearly explaining re: the MV22 Osprey:

    1) That the MV-22 is statistically less safe than other comparable aircraft, and

    2) What design flaws exist that make the MV-22 less safe?

    Every time I've tried to research or discuss the issue, questions of aircraft safety don't go much beyond pointing out that there were 2 crashes in 2012, with no discussion of the circumstances of the crashes or whether the lifetime crash rate is similar for those types of aircraft.

    Any attempt to press further, and the argument quickly switches to why Futenma needs to close (a subject that both Japanese and Okinawan politicians and the US Military largely agree on), but really, the issue is that all military bases (US only, or JSDF also?) on Okinawa need to close... but really, the issue is that Japan needs to cancel the US-Japan Mutual Security Alliance and remove all US military from Japan. The obligatory laundry list of everything bad that a US Military member has ever done in Okinawa is thrown in for good measure.

    At this point, we're not discussing aircraft safety, we're discussing national security policy, something I wasn't initially asking about. If that's the protesters' position, then by all means, lobby for it and build national consensus - that's one of the great things of living in a liberal democracy. But conflating multiple unrelated issues makes it harder to sense if there's any coherent argument at all.

  • -1

    Athletes

    That base is just economic and social burden for locals. In theory, they are employed. Reality is they are so bored and plenty of time to spare because there is no enemy for them. The consequence is they have to bully and rape the locals. As Yuri posted the more force force stationed in Japan, the more Japan will become expose to hostile neighbors. NK has demonstrated with Rocket they do not need to come to Japan.

    Some beaches are beautiful. However tourists do not dare to go there because they are the shooting ground for training. If that base is empty, more tourists will enjoy the mother nature and local will make more bucks. Okinawa pork will become the biggest tourist attraction.

  • 1

    Harry_Gatto

    I wonder how many Okinawan bar and restaurant owners, taxi drivers and owners of property rented to the US military were there?

  • -3

    Tony Ew

    @TravelingSales

    Last time the US started a major pullback from the Western Pacific was 1946 - 50. Anyone happen to remember how peacefully the NKs and Chinese responded?

    I think you have to see the difference here as a Pacific Power compared with last time. Last time the issue was really in great part due to ideological war, Communism vs Democracy, just like the Vietnam War was really about the two political systems.

    This time I don't see ANY GENUINE reason for the US to be so heavily armed all over Japan and S Korea. China is moving as fast as she can towards her own style of Democracy. Everybody knows Communism is a wrong ideology. So what is US in this region for? No invasion is going to happen to convert Japan's Democratic system to Communism. AND I am very curious what reason can anybody cook up for China to invade Japan? Japan is resource poor and not an easy target to conquer so I don't see China wanting to attack Japan. Besides business is booming between the two countries, why go to war? Thus US as I said 'Self Invite' to stay in Japan to continue her Pacific Power Projection. I say go to Guam and stop being a pest to everybody here in Japan! China absolutely have ZERO reason to attack Japan.

    As for the Korean Peninsula, US shouldn't use additional air forces based in Japan especially in Okinawa to protect S Korea. Especially the F22 and potentially the F35 that can attack North Korea with stealth. THAT is also WHY N Korea show great displeasure and thus fire missiles over Japan just to vent her anger!

  • 1

    Suzu1

    Okinawans rally in Ginza

    Not really. These folks are the "one-tsubo landowners" who live in Tokyo but portray themselves as victims of U.S. bases in Okinawa.

  • -3

    technosphere

    This kind of thinking is idiotic at best. There are only a handful of nuts that want the US out of Japan.

    Please, tone down with your cheap US- made propaganda. If Okinawans want you to leave, just leave. No need to invent any sort of self-justification. Okinawans are sane people, not idiots.

  • -1

    Tony Ew

    @Wonbatto

    , but really, the issue is that all military bases (US only, or JSDF also?) on Okinawa need to close... but really, the issue is that Japan needs to cancel the US-Japan Mutual Security Alliance and remove all US military from Japan.

    I couldn't have said it better! I argue here why US have overstayed in Japan and irritate the Chinese and N Koreans creating unnecessary tensions in this region. (sell more weapons?) Just watch how much nicer China will be to Japan once US leave the First Island Chains. Even Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands can be settled once this US 'elephant in the room' is far far away, satisfying China A2/AD strategy just like that! Even the N Koreans may promise not to develop further nukes to threaten Japan.

  • -2

    noriyosan73

    These people are absolutely right! Get the USA military out of Okinawa and Japan, if possible, and let them defend themselves. Ospreys - what a farce. Japan buys drones and the USA taxpayers provide subs, etc to protect Japan and the area. It is easy for the USA military who are "on duty" - i.e. on vacation to write on this subject and defend the occupation when the people on Okinawa and elsewhere have to endure the ruthlessness and drunkenness of "the boys just being boys."

  • -1

    Probie

    @Wonbatto

    Every time I've tried to research or discuss the issue, questions of aircraft safety don't go much beyond pointing out that there were 2 crashes in 2012, with no discussion of the circumstances of the crashes or whether the lifetime crash rate is similar for those types of aircraft.

    This is what I commented on another article a while ago showing that the Osprey is safer than the Chinook- which no-one seems to have a problem with:

    "The V-22 has had 7 crashes with a total of 36 fatalities." since 1991.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_V-22_Osprey

    People seem to have no problem with the Chinook, which just from the Wiki article, you can see it has at least 122 fatalities since 1982.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Chinook#Notable_accidents_and_incidents

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    The minute the US left Japan -- which they never will, especially under the current government -- Japan would face a real conundrum: keep up it's rhetoric and be taken over by China, or suddenly capitulate to their demands as they cannot possibly defend themselves. The only reason Abe is stepping up the rhetoric against China is because he is depending on the US to back them up -- hence all the backroom deals and recent agreements on things Japan was, at best, wishy-washy on until now.

    Within a week of the US leaving Japan these same nuts in the picture and the few in Okinawa protesting the base that gave them their homes around it and in many cases their living at present would be demanding US help for defense against the growing threat of China.

    Anyway, not to worry. A Chinese boat or jet will enter the area around the disputed islands sometime this week and all of these people will quickly fall silent.

  • 5

    motytrah

    @Wonbatto Go out to Wired.com and do a search on Osprey. There are several detailed articles dealing with the technical issues and policial cover-ups that have been going on with the 20+ year R&D program.

  • 2

    Wonbatto

    I couldn't have said it better! I argue here why US have overstayed in Japan and irritate the Chinese and N Koreans creating unnecessary tensions in this region.

    My point is that if the protesters' goal is to effect change in national defence policy (i.e. end the US-Japan Security Alliance) then please, argue on that point and build national consensus. In doing so, you'll need to argue:

    1) Japan is capable of providing for its own national defence in case of US withdrawal, and that the political and economic will exists to make that happen, and

    2) Such a major shift in policy is in Japan's and the regions interest (regional stability directly affects the economic climate, which ties back to Japan's own interests)

    But those arguments aren't happening, and there's no recognition that most of those who live on the Japanese mainland are, for the most part, satisfied with the status quo. If an element of item (2) is that dialogue with China on the Senkaku/Diaoyu issue becomes easier, then make that a part of the discussion. I for one am highly skeptical that reducing a nation's defence capabilities puts it in a stronger negotiating position on territorial disputes, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

    But tying the large questions of national defence policy into other issues of land use, aircraft safety, and some very dubious arguments on crime make it hard to have any coherent dialogue at all, especially when it's unclear if those who are protesting really understand any of those issues in any depth.

    Even the N Koreans may promise not to develop further nukes to threaten Japan.

    I doubt that good faith promises of detente with N Korea enter much into Japan's calculus re: the US-Japan Alliance. The North Korean government hates Japan almost as much as they hate the US, so that's not going to go away if Japan forges an independent foreign policy path. As for what the North Korean government "promises" in negotiations, well... they aren't known for consistency on that front.

  • 0

    sidesmile

    It seems a week doesnt go by without some group or other calling for the Americans to leave Okinawa or Japan. I dont get it? Why the villification? Its not as though they are blasting into town every weekend by the truckload and raping and pillaging everything in sight, is it. The Osprey are not dropping out of the sky like flies, are they. So, whats the problem? Nothing more than a load of bored, nationalist old trumps with nothing better to do than to form herds and whinge. You can find them gathered round their favourite park bench on any given day...whinging and putting the country to rights. I think the US should increase their presence here...and the media should only pay attention to intelligent protestations. "No Rape!"?..that goes without saying, doesn't it? Is that the best they can do?

  • 1

    Michael Jun Sung Shim

    @Bertiewooster! Thanks for the reply!! Have you ever travelled or lived in Korea? Just How much knowledge do you have about S Korea- U.S.A. friendships and military alliance? In recent polls, it said 90% of S Koreans have positive feelings to the United States.

    I'm quite certain that those 90% of Korean people favour stationing the U.S.Army in S Korea.So I fail to understand why on earth you think US Armed Forces aren't welcome in S Korea!! Please back up your statements with hard evidence to justify your argument!! Thank You and Have A Nice Day!

    • Moderator

      Back on topic please. Posts that do not refer to Okinawa will be removed.

  • 2

    smithinjapan

    BertieWooster: "US forces are not welcomed in Korea either."

    Not true at all, Bertie. You're just assuming. There are indeed some right-wingers who are adamantly anti-American military, but those guys are anti-foreigner in general, especially if they think the 'Americans are stealing their women' or some such drivel. But most of the country is quite happy with the American presence, and the SK/US militaries enjoy a relationship of mutual respect, carry out training missions together all the time (with Japan always asking if it can tag along!), etc.

    All these old codgers ranting about "No base no rape" (again, can they even read what it says?) or what have you just want to hear their own voices huffing and puffing because they're angry with their lives and have to vent it -- and the US military is an easier target than the actual problems they and their own nation are facing.

  • 2

    conchobar

    People saying that the US is the cause of tension between Japan and China are so clueless, it just blows my mind.

    China's anger at US involvement in Asia is very simple: US presence prevents China from getting her way without a fight.

    If the US really did leave (which won't happen of course, but I will just play along with you all), all disputes between Japan and China would either immediately be resolved in China's favor or they would go to war, simple as that. I don't think the angry youth here realize how deep Chinese hatred of Japan runs. Public opinion in China is overwhelmingly demanding war with Japan. The leaders know better because they can't afford a war with the US, but as soon as the US left China would just pounce. You would trade a problem with US bases for a problem with Chinese bases.

  • 1

    Flyfalcon

    The minute the US left Japan -- which they never will, especially under the current government -- Japan would face a real conundrum: keep up it's rhetoric and be taken over by China,

    Exaggeration! Japan is the most natural disaster prone nation on that earth. It also lacks the natural resource. According the geographic survey, it can be submerged into sea due to volcanic chain. Canada is thousand times more attractive to China rather than Japan mainland. It is very remote and unlikely scenario.

    Within a week of the US leaving Japan these same nuts in the picture and the few in Okinawa protesting the base that gave them their homes around it and in many cases their living at present would be demanding US help for defense against the growing threat of China.

    Both native Okinawa people and Chinese love to eat pork. Okinawa art and custom were imported from ancient China. There will be flood of Chinese tourists enjoying sightseeing in shooting ground of Okinawa beaches. It will become boom time for Okinawa like Canada or Australia. China may want to reclaim some territories of their backyard. It is 99% likely they will not claim Okinawa during our life time. Even residents do not worry about that and sleep well. They concern more about service men intrusion and punches and kicks.

    Anyway, not to worry. A Chinese boat or jet will enter the area around the disputed islands sometime this week and all of these people will quickly fall silent.

    That Islets dispute existed since 1960s. Most of the boat or jet came there for fishing and exploration. Those people have been quiet for more than 40 years. By the way, Japanese are cruel and more violent to Okinawans. According BertieWooster research,

    when Japanese soldiers forced thousands of Okinawans to commit suicide and many more thousands were killed or got caught in the cross fire from US forces and the 1945-1972 years of US occupation when rapes and violence didn't make it to news media.

    Whether you support US troops is entirely your opinion. No one can force others to follow their belief and making up their mind. Your truth is yours. Okinawans truth is theirs!

  • 0

    michikokada

    Okinawa's "blue sea blue sky" will make much more money when the US military is gone. They should build casinos there, make it a Vegas island, it's more attractive "travel wise" than Macau and Singapore. China doesn't want Okinawa, it's a threat made up by the US to justify its presence there. And it's time for Japan to defend herself, for real, amend the constitution if necessary and re-build the economy because obviously defense spending is not going to be a cheap bill to pay, but the money collected from Japanese tax payers should not go into foreigners' pocket i.e. the US military who can't even behave themselves. Japan has to understand something foundamental: she can make more profits with her immediate neighbours, stand on her own feet and make peace with Korea and China > these three countries united economically is the only way that they are going to forget the pain of war and prosper altogether. Japan was a country of great courage and hope, with respect to honor...since when she became a puppet from a real lady in kimono???

  • 0

    hidingout

    I want to grow rice on my families land and for Okinawa to be 100 percent Okinawan.

    Really Yuri? I've been to Okinawa many times. Never seen so many abandoned and boarded up businesses. Growing rice would be about all you would be doing if the American military ever pulled out - which we all know isn't going to happen in our lifetimes ..... so back to the real world we go.

  • -2

    hidingout

    China is moving as fast as she can towards her own style of Democracy.

    Outrageous comment. Please never use the word democracy in the same sentence as communist china unless it is for the purpose of comparing polar opposites. If anything the communists are more dangerous now than they were in 1950 and American presence in asia is absolutely necessary to stop them from bullying other countries into following the chinese way. Fortunately the real democracies (hint: not china) in Asia recognize this and aside from a few far left pacifists, socialists and communist sympathizers everyone in japan recognizes it too.

  • 0

    Yubaru

    It is interesting they are using rape as a stand for their protest/ From memory there has only been three or four rapes in Okinawa committed by US servicemen.

    If you believe this you REALLY need to know that you are off by at least a few hundred over all the years the bases have been here.

  • 0

    Yubaru

    I want to grow rice on my families land and for Okinawa to be 100 percent Okinawan.

    And how many tens of thousands of Japanese people will you displace in your desire to take Okinawa back into the dark ages?

    It sad to see people who live in a country that protects the rights and freedoms of people from all over the world (USA) can't or won't all the same courtesy to the place of their birth.

  • -4

    BertieWooster

    michikokada-san,

    China doesn't want Okinawa, it's a threat made up by the US to justify its presence there.

    Exactly!

    It's also another way for the US to sell some very expensive military hardware to Japan - which sycophant Abe can't wait to pay for with Japanese taxpayers' money.

  • -4

    Tony Ew

    @Wonbatto

    But those arguments aren't happening, and there's no recognition that most of those who live on the Japanese mainland are, for the most part, satisfied with the status quo.

    Okinawa is Ground Zero! Okinawa is where WWII decisive battle is fought. Now it is Ground Zero again! Last time US attack Japan with military superiority. This time US 'attack' Japan with sophisticated Fear Factor marketing! You must remember America is Numero Uno in marketing. That is why US is very good at hyping everything and get away with it most of the time! I love Abe Lincoln, time for people to realise US cannot hoodwink Japanese ALL the time!

    The Okinawan protest here is just a start. When more Japanese realise US presence in Japan do much more harm than good, they will know the real devil is your closest friend, not China, not N Korea. Let's analyse calmly and see why.

    1 China and Japan do substantial business and China depends on Japan superior technology while Japan depends on China for cheaper labor and vast markets. Nobody lose! Exactly same in China Taiwan relationship. All talk of war is nonsense as it hurts China.

    2 Okinawa is very important to protect Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands but WHY would China ATTACK the islands? It is so very silly because IT IS NOT WORTH IT! All that is happening now is China just putting on a show for domestic consumption, that's all.

    3 Japan have no natural resources and hard to beat military with sophisticated fighters in Okinawa and elsewhere, no need US help. So ZERO reason for China to attack Japan

    As you can see the US treaty with Japan is just an American devil Pacific Power motivation. Once the Japanese pubic knows better they will vote to push out US from the area. Okinawans are taking the lead but I think they have not see the big picture as I mention. Worse if US base F35 with nuke capabilities B61 bombs, China and N Korea will really rachet up the tensions, so Okinawans may next time protest the F35 , not just the Ospreys as the islands now become a juicy target for China! Those Okinawans who fear lost economy with US withdrawal need not worry. China tourists will keep them afloat, just like Taiwan.

    For the sake of peace in Okinawa, mainland Japan, China, Russia should guarantee Japan security, no need for US to stick around.

  • 0

    Yubaru

    For the sake of peace in Okinawa, mainland Japan, China, Russia should guarantee Japan security,

    This is like asking two sharks not to eat a baby seal. Impossible.

  • -4

    BertieWooster

    Tony Ew-san,

    I completely agree with you.

    There is no reason for China to attack Okinawa. It would gain precisely nothing and it would lose too much.

    There are no natural resources in Okinawa. There are buildings and infrastructure, but these would be destroyed in an act of aggression. China would lose international trade by this action and that would be an act of suicide. China is primarily a trading nation.

    Also if China decided on war with Japan, the situation would become extremely complex to say the least. There is a Chinatown in just about every major city on the planet and there is huge Chinese presence in San Francisco, New York, Hawaii and many other parts of the U.S.A. I'm sure that many of these people are and would remain loyal to the mainland. Finance is similarly complex. The US debt to China is huge.

    Okinawa has exactly NOTHING to worry about.

    It doesn't need defence because there is no one to attack it.

    The only ones who must might be crazy enough to do so are the North Koreans. And the main reason they would attack Okinawa would be to take out the US bases.

    This is another reason for the demonstrations in Tokyo.

    Okinawans want the US bases off the island because, rather than defending anything, they create a danger.

  • -7

    Tony Ew

    @BertieWooster

    Thank you Bertie! I really like sane people, people who will just calm down and not exacerbate the matter. It cost lots of resources to go to war and only crazy government do that AND will be topple by her own citizens for such adventurism. I hate to remind the Japanese, THIS IS THE GOLDEN AGE OF THE ASIANS! This WILL be the Asian Century if they just learn to relax a bit and not go into the deep end and keep worrying about China attacking Japan. NEVER! What I DO worry is N Korea lunatic attacking Kadena base as payback and all Okinawan will suffer but this is highly unlikely if US is not in Japan anywhere. In other words, Okinawa will suffer a playback of WWII, like lightning strike twice! I really wish more trade between Japan and China just like Taiwan/China, any sane government will not go to war with her trading partner over such a small issue like the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. I repeat, US is scheming like crazy to justify her presence as a Pacific Power, I say move out of Okinawa and go to Guam and still operate as a Pacific Power without annoying China and still able to offer a backup defense for Japan at a moment's notice. Sell Japan F22, F35 so Japan can defend herself better.

  • 3

    hidingout

    This is like asking two sharks not to eat a baby seal. Impossible.

    Well said Yubaru. Some folks will scoff at American friendship for Japan and label it "numero uno marketing", whilst making ridiculous claims of chinese "guarantees of safety" like the one you quote above.

    They will then trumpet the "vast markets and cheap labor" available to the japanese in communist china - ignoring that the cheap labor depends on keeping the poor chinese civilians on their knees, and the "vast market" isn't nearly as vast as they claim since the majority of the communists are "cheap labor" and they struggle to keep food in their stomachs and a roof over their heads. Not like they'll be buying and Sony or Toyota products in their lifetimes.

    They will then go on to admit that the communist government - still unable to get past the events of history - engages in saber rattling tactics to appease their many hardline nationalist citizens who carry a deep and burning hatred for Japan. They are "just putting on a show for domestic consumption",don't you know.

    They will further suggest that the US presence in Japan "does more harm than good", ignoring completely the fact that the US has been the one country to do the most to help Japan rise from the ashes of WWII by opening its market to Japan (a real market with citizens who actually have cash to spend) and sharing its advanced technology with Japanese firms.

    And finally they will engage in the tactic china knows best .... threats and fear mongering by throwing out vague insinuations of what they will do if F35/B61 nuclear capable bombers are stationed in Okinawa. "The islands now become a juicy target for china".

    I think we can all see that nobody does propaganda and "marketing" like the communist chinese.

  • 2

    cabadaje

    When more Japanese realise US presence in Japan do much more harm than good, they will know the real devil is your closest friend, not China, not N Korea. Let's analyse calmly and see why.

    Alright then, let's see what problems the US presence in Japan causes:

    1 China and Japan do substantial business and China depends on Japan superior technology while Japan depends on China for cheaper labor and vast markets. Nobody lose!

    China doesn't have vast markets. China has a smaller market than Tokyo. And while there are many countries willing to provide cheap labor, superior technology is a bit more limited in availability. Also, let's not forget the Chinese attitude to intellectual property.

    But what does this have to do with the US presence in Japan?

    Exactly same in China Taiwan relationship. All talk of war is nonsense as it hurts China.

    I agree. Which is why China should cut down on the war talk, which is what people hear when the Chinese defense minister talks about the government and military being unshakeable in their defense of the islands (from what?), and when we see riots (which the Chinese government has NEVER failed to ruthlessly crush) destroying foreign business, threatening genocide, and passionately advocating war even if it kills every last Chinese citizen. The progressive escalation of craft to the islands hasn't helped either.

    The closest comment to war that the US has made is Clinton's "we oppose any unilateral actions that would seek to undermine Japanese administration" and "With regard to regional security, I reiterated longstanding American policy on the Senkaku Islands and our treaty obligations". Even the Chinese media is unable to charge these comments with anything stronger than "meddling in foreign affairs".

    2 Okinawa is very important to protect Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands but WHY would China ATTACK the islands? It is so very silly because IT IS NOT WORTH IT! All that is happening now is China just putting on a show for domestic consumption, that's all.

    Actually, it would be worthwhile, depending on the intent. Some believe that China was trying to set a precedent in which it could invade a territory and then refer to it as being under dispute. This would allow them to justify the use of greater force in other disputed territories. They tried for an easy win with the Senkaku islands precisely because they are relatively worthless, and the Chinese were hoping for an easy victory over territory that no one cared too much about.

    But what does this have to do with US presence in Japan?

    3 Japan have no natural resources and hard to beat military with sophisticated fighters in Okinawa and elsewhere, no need US help.

    Ah...isn't that hard to beat military hardware (and a decent chunk of those imported natural resources) from the US?

    So ZERO reason for China to attack Japan

    I wager that several countries, Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand, and such, would argue the same, that China really had no reason to attack, and should peacefully return to its former border.

    But what does this have to do with the US presence in Japan?

    As you can see the US treaty with Japan is just an American devil Pacific Power motivation.

    Um...could you walk me through that logic one more time?

    Worse if US base F35 with nuke capabilities B61 bombs, China and N Korea will really rachet up the tensions,

    US bases (including the ones in Japan) have all had nuclear capable craft for decades. Why are the F35 any different?

    Those Okinawans who fear lost economy with US withdrawal need not worry. China tourists will keep them afloat, just like Taiwan.

    Some...would consider that a reason to worry, actually.

    For the sake of peace in Okinawa, mainland Japan, China, Russia should guarantee Japan security, no need for US to stick around.

    The thing about security is this: It isn't something you promise, it's something you do. It's like your children demanding a dog and promising to be responsible for it. You don't buy the dog based on the child's promise to be responsible; First, your child proves himself responsible. Then, you buy the dog.

    Japan, of course, has the right to make its own decision, and the US will abide by that decision (because Japan has shown itself to be a responsible global player). However, because Japan is responsible, it will look at the past and determine just who, out of the US, China, and Russia, has shown themselves to be the most beneficial ally of Japan.

  • -2

    Tony Ew

    @hidingout @Yubaru.

    Relax guys. I am an American Chinese who loves America but not many of her dangerous foreign policies esp in Asia. I have zero affiliation to PRC and have even been to Japan twice, do business with Japanese people, all very nice. The FBI can even look me up to confirm for you! Without being irrelevant to this article I have to refer to Okinawa as ground zero because of so many lethal American planes there to do first strike missions. So Okinawa is at the bullseye for China and N Korea in any conflict.

    I say America is afraid of PEACE! Too much peace and she have to pack up and go home! So every once in a while, send a 'reminder' to the the Japanese people we are here to protect you with a little joint exercise. But is there really any Chinese enemy in sight or just the Fear Factor America dish up to scare you? For America it is all business and this is a big chess game to justify her presence in Okinawa and elsewhere with a little 'marketing'. America is really really good at playing people's minds.!

    It is easy to test China's sincerity, Russia's sincerity to guarantee peace for Japan. Just get your government to feel out if they will do so. Kurils Senkaku/Diaoyu never to be reason for war. China had never do this kind of thing, so maybe a little prodding from Japan will get them to act. America WON'T be helping you. She rather have TENSION in this area! No baby seals to worry about these sharks once there is a piece of document which will just defang them.

    Oh, talking about real markets. The American sun is sinking (always big sale and people buy at a discount!) and if China is not buying enough, one big reason is huge expenditure spend in military development to counter US 'containment'. That is top priority for now as yesterday's GMD system missile test shows. All these cost big money and citizens purchasing power take a back seat.

    F35/ B61 tactical nukes is not a vague insinuation! You look at the US arsenal, F22 is not able to do a bunker busting attack like B61. B61 is the ace in the hole for US AND this is the weapon of choice if US is to attack North Korea or China's missiles sites and J20 hardened airfields. So back to Okinawa where these planes are stationed. Okinawa will be the bulleyes eye for China or N Korea. A military planner from those countries knows how potent B61 tactical nukes are short of using ICBM's. AND will attempt to do Pre Emptive Attack First! You want a further illustration, US had planed to nuke Vietnam Ho Chi Minh Trail using same tactical nuke strategy. Google Gen Westmoreland.

    Excerpts: The U.S. Air Force plans to deploy some of the B61-12s in Europe late in the decade for delivery by F-15E, F-16, F-35 and Tornado aircraft to replace the B61-4s currently deployed in Europe. The improved accuracy will increase the capability of NATO’s nuclear posture, which will be further enhanced by delivery of the B61-12 on the stealthy F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2012/11

  • 0

    Yubaru

    @Tony Ew First off thank you for sharing your thoughts

    I have to refer to Okinawa as ground zero because of so many lethal American planes there to do first strike missions. So Okinawa is at the bullseye for China and N Korea in any conflict.

    I suggest that you take a look at the deployment of US troops throughout Japan. There are a number of "other" bases that have "first-strike" mission capable airplanes a heck of a lot closer to China and NK than Okinawa by far and would more than likely be the point of any attack if and ever it did take place. That is another hypothetical story of course.

    I say America is afraid of PEACE! Too much peace and she have to pack up and go home

    Tell me, when is the last time that China and Japan were truly at peace with each other? While culturally and ethnically Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese are closer cousins to each other than the US is to China or NK, these "families" have been fueding for centuries. Just now a days a bigger bully sits astride the potential battle lines and keeps the two (three if you include NK) apart from each other.

    I think with the way China is acting, not just towards Japan, but to all it's neighbors, there is little if any chance for PEACE between the two nations, real peace, meaning being able to trust each other and to work together for the betterment of both.

    China only has it's own interests at heart. At least that is how it comes across to me. Japan too for that matter. So the US gets to play referee, and while they may not be the best choice, they are the biggest deterent to things in the near future not escalating any more than they are now.

    Just get your government to feel out if they will do so.

    My government is across the Pacific east of me where you live. lol!

  • -1

    cabadaje

    I say America is afraid of PEACE!

    I say America is afraid of complacency.

    It is easy to test China's sincerity, Russia's sincerity to guarantee peace for Japan. Just get your government to feel out if they will do so.

    Similarly, it's easy to ask that stranger hitchhiking on the side of the road if he isn't dangerous. Just get a cop to ask him. If the hitchhiker sincerely guarantees that not only will he not attack you, he will even protect you, then you would be silly not to give him a ride.

    Kurils Senkaku/Diaoyu never to be reason for war. China had never do this kind of thing, so maybe a little prodding from Japan will get them to act.

    True enough. Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand just prodded a little by...existing, and Boom, China was all over them. Almost had no choice, really, practically backed into a corner by those...Buddhist monks.

    America WON'T be helping you. She rather have TENSION in this area!

    Have you noticed how circular this argument is?

    -Why is the US in this area? -To cause tension! -Why does it need to cause tension? -To be in this area!

    Sooo...what, we just want to cause tension for the hell of it? It's fun?

    No, it really isn't too complex. This region was very unstable. The US came in and stabilized it. Over the decades, it has become much, much more stable, due in large part to the stabilizing force of the US (see how that works?). Has it become so stable that it no longer needs an external stabilizing force? No, not yet. Getting there, but not there yet. When it does, the US will be more than happy to leave the protection of its interests (which exist only because of the stability the US provides) in the hands and wallets of others and return home, where it is cheaper to live.

    The American sun is sinking (always big sale and people buy at a discount!) and if China is not buying enough,

    Don't worry about it. Japan buys just about as much as China. Lends us about as much too.

    one big reason is huge expenditure spend in military development to counter US 'containment'.

    Yeah, see, it's that sort of thing that people interpret as "We are willing to invade other people's territory!"

    F35/ B61 tactical nukes is not a vague insinuation!

    No one said it was. I was just wondering what the difference was between it and any other nuclear capable craft.

    You look at the US arsenal, F22 is not able to do a bunker busting attack like B61

    Sure it can. It just has to carry it externally, which means extra measures have to be made to keep it stealthy (if stealth isn't an issue, then no problem). But then, it's easier to just use any of a dozen other craft that can carry it.

    B61 is the ace in the hole for US AND this is the weapon of choice if US is to attack North Korea or China's missiles sites and J20 hardened airfields.

    The B61 is NOT an ace in the hole, and DEFINITELY not the "weapon of choice" for any attack. In fact, it is nothing short of political suicide for any general and president ordering its use. Not only was the military planning on phasing them out within 15 years, even the life extension refurbishment program they exist under has been indefinitely halted. Nuclear weapon antipathy is so strong in the US than using anything with the word "nuclear" in it had better have something along the lines of "biological weapons lab" as the target, and even then there had better be a damn good explanation why a nuke was necessary. We wouldn't even forgive nukes used against bases with other nukes (indeed, most nuclear defense plans revolves around knocking the missiles out in flight, just to make the "They threw the first punch" thing as clear as possible).

    Okinawa will be the bulleyes eye for China or N Korea. A military planner from those countries knows how potent B61 tactical nukes are short of using ICBM's. AND will attempt to do Pre Emptive Attack First!

    That's what the US is afraid of. Goes back to the whole "stability" thing I was talking about.

    You want a further illustration, US had planed to nuke Vietnam Ho Chi Minh Trail using same tactical nuke strategy. Google Gen Westmoreland.

    Yes, please do Google it and educate yourself. Those who do will find the following:

    "On 1 February General Earle G. Wheeler, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, raised the issue with Westmoreland of "whether tactical nuclear weapons should be used if the situation at Khe Sanh should become that desperate." Westmoreland replied that their use would probably not be required. He was so scared by the tactical situation that he added that if the situation did change dramatically, "I visualize that either tactical nuclear weapons or chemical agents would be active candidates for employment." Westmoreland then established a small study group to examine the consequences of what was nicknamed Fracture Jaw. Westmoreland later wrote that "Washington so feared that some word of it might reach the press that I was told to desist, ironically answering what those consequences could be: a political disaster."

    So, when the issue was raised (by someone other than General Westmoreland), his first response was "Let's not, unless things go really, really downhill." Then, like any good general, he set up a research group to analyze the risks, but (as I previously mentioned) the subject is such an anathema to the US that he was ordered to not even think about it.

  • -2

    Tony Ew

    @cabadaje

    Got to stay within this article on Okinawa or it may get rejected.

    US bases (including the ones in Japan) have all had nuclear capable craft for decades. Why are the F35 any different?

    Because it is a bunker busting bomb that will have more success due to it's stealth capabilities which older planes don't have. Older planes flying into China will more likely be shot down before reaching target vs F35

    The thing about security is this: It isn't something you promise, it's something you do

    Right now no peace treaty between Japan & China so there is no guidance how to conduct one's action and what CANNOT be done. Just say arms treaty between US and Russia, there is NO wiggle room, just do per agreement. Same can be said of a peace treaty where UNFRIENDLY ACTS are not allowed. Let the countries negotiate what they mean EXACTLY so there is no ambiguity. So you cannot put the carriage in front of the horse. You have to hammer out the rules of behavior in absolute clarity. In the end a country's honor is at stake if she don't abide by the treaty.

    Um...could you walk me through that logic one more time?

    Yes, American assets can go to Guam and still be a Pacific Power with instant backup to Japan defense needs. Not such a traumatic loss of potency given American submarines naval air capabilities. Is Okinawa really that necessary?

    Some...would consider that a reason to worry, actually.

    Seriouly China would like to buy over Okinawa but of course this won't happen. Would love to make Okinawa into a Disneyland for mainland and Japanese tourists to visit. The possibilities are endless! Once reluctant Okinawans see the possibilities they will join the bandwagon! People can be converted you know.

    I wager that several countries, Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand, and such, would argue the same, that China really had no reason to attack, and should peacefully return to its former border.

    Of course people get confused! So here is my explanation. Border disputes, geopolitics, historical factors reset borders to where they are today re Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand non issue here. You can add Philippines same endless disputes but China NEVER attack across the ocean like Japan did to China. See the difference from border disputes? One is AGGRESSION/INVASION, the other is border territorial disputes so readers can see what I mean.

    Ah...isn't that hard to beat military hardware (and a decent chunk of those imported natural resources) from the US?

    Whatever Japan have now is already very strong deterrent to keep China from making first move. But we don't know HOW MANY submarines Japan have. Those submarines actually may frighten China more than the jets or destroyers as they are super quiet electric diesel subs. It is Japan's own technology and no US help is necessary here. Ditto destroyers. Only seaborne early warning radar systems, fighter jets requires more US help. We may never know how many subs are hiding around Okinawa! Perhaps Japan own Epsilon Launch Vehicles missile launchers placed around Okinawa to launch missiles VERY QUICKLY is a big deterrent against any Chinese invasion.

    Actually, it would be worthwhile, depending on the intent. Some believe that China was trying to set a precedent in which it could invade a territory and then refer to it as being under dispute. This would allow them to justify the use of greater force in other disputed territories

    Don't you hate the military guys! They wear their uniforms, go to their War Room, make a few war analysis like Andrew Marshall and presto, out comes this China marvellous strategy! Nope, the world is much much more complicated than these generals simplistic thinking. Economic ties between China and Japan, Philippines, Taiwan, Vietnam and so forth are HUGE so is ANY sane government in China going to do as these military guys envision? They should go learn some realities about the deeply interconnected commercial relationships between these countries and understand WHY it is NEVER going to happen!

    I agree. Which is why China should cut down on the war talk, which is what people hear when the Chinese defense minister talks about the government and military being unshakeable ...

    I think it is called putting on a show, TIT FOR TAT, (is it in reference to Japan 'TRACER BULLET' tough talk?) for domestic audience so as not to look weak. You see Japan and US conducting endless exercise to show to domestic audience Japan is strong, and able to defend against China, so I won't take this statement as directed to Japan but for domestic consumption.

    China doesn't have vast markets. China has a smaller market than Tokyo.

    Perhaps you have numbers to back up your claim? IN ANY CASE your market is SATURATED, so if I am a business person like Toyota, why do I waste my time trying to sell in Tokyo with parking space hard to get and thus no sales vs China with ever more sales each year!

    Alright then, let's see what problems the US presence in Japan causes:

    Small matter of course like rape and drunkard behavior, but the TENSION in the region will be much reduced if US just move further away, leave Okinawa and move to Guam for example.

    In a big loop, everything ties in to Okinawa! By getting out of Okinawa and perhaps other parts of Japan business will grow further, more investments in each other countries. You even have Chinese coming to buy land in Hokkaido for mineral spring water to export back to China. More friendly relationships, more trade both ways!

  • -3

    Tony Ew

    @Yubaru

    I suggest that you take a look at the deployment of US troops throughout Japan. There are a number of "other" bases that have "first-strike" mission capable airplanes a heck of a lot closer to China and NK than Okinawa by far and would more than likely be the point of any attack if and ever it did take place. That is another hypothetical story of course.

    BUT stealth is EVERYTHING! Either China and/or Russia will warn N Korea of an impending US strike on her missile sites especially those nasty nukes. This is the focus of attention. All other air bases does not have stealth planes, am I right? So the closeness to N Korea matter less. AND I am sorry I have to say here Human Intelligence will frighten the Okinawans if they understand the modus operandi of US strategy. Late night flights out of Okinawa BUT spies everywhere! You never know what kind of spies are crawling all over Okinawa. They WILL alert N Korea or China of ANY UNUSUAL PLANE MOVEMENTS. How? just some low tech will do using computers to ping computers back home or vice versa. Sure telephone will work too. OK under normal circumstances but US will most likely blackout Kadena area pre take off. SO if Okinawa is deliberately under a blackout, esp within Kadena viiew area, THEN this will be taken as an impending strike! Sorry the secret is out, stealth will fail when human intelligence give the other party at least a half hour warning to move out of harms way.

    Tell me, when is the last time that China and Japan were truly at peace with each other?

    Actually bad memories start to fade away till Koizumi start visiting Yasukuni Shrine endlessly AND now Ishihara just unravel everything! Simply put without sensitivity to each other's feelings, there is only uneasy peace, just like Japan with the Koreas. Senkaku/Diaoyu islands LAND ITSELF is supposed to be a 'dead man's zone' with no development and that is fine with China until all this publicity that requires her to react.

    I think with the way China is acting, not just towards Japan, but to all it's neighbors, there is little if any chance for PEACE between the two nations, real peace, meaning being able to trust each other and to work together for the betterment of both.

    I think it is called a Perfect Storm! I say NOBODY plant flags on EACH of the disputed islands way back so both parties have problems with their claims. China ONLY want BILATERAL NEGOTIATIONS. What is so hard to understand? Why, a sovereign nation have no backbone and negotiate with China directly? China look at Philippines, Vietnam and with US GANGING UP on her seeking a 'Group Bargaining Power' to negotiate with China. From China's viewpoint this is like having to deal with a pack of hyenas with US as the elephant in the room. Nope, China is not going to be pushed around. Just blame Hillary for all her wisdom, but hey, this is EXACTLY what US want,: a divided Asian communities SO US HAVE A REASON to stick around! aka Pacific Power! Sell more weapons! Jobs, we need jobs badly!

    My government is across the Pacific east of me where you live. lol!

    Sorry! Easy to make mistakes. You know lots of nationalists on this site giving me - votes, so easy to get confused!

  • -4

    YuriOtani

    The moving of stealth aircraft may be see as provocation by Mainland China. These are the means to launch a first strike against them and they know it. The Osprey aircraft are unimportant in the balance of power while faster have a whole new series of problems. The Marines of Okinawa could be replaced by a Amphibious Naval Group. It has the advantage of being mobile and not a sitting duck.

    I see the Americans are upset by the demonstrations. The reason is because they do NOT believe in the right of free speech and free assembly. If they truly believe in "American Values" they would withdraw the Marine force from Okinawa. They know they are not welcome and there has already been a vote stating such. There is a "doublethink" that affects the Americans and they expect to be thanked for their burden Think they would accept Kadena AFB and White Beach but the Marines have to go. The people of Okinawa want their island back, it belong to us the people of Okinawa.

  • -2

    Tony Ew

    @cabadaje

    I say America is afraid of complacency

    There is NO complacency. All America have to do is to move to Guam and still have a credible Just In Time defense arrangement for Japan. To compensate give Japan more F35, F22 and seaborne radar.

    Similarly, it's easy to ask that stranger hitchhiking on the side of the road if he isn't dangerous. Just get a cop to ask him. If the hitchhiker sincerely guarantees that not only will he not attack you, he will even protect you, then you would be silly not to give him a ride.

    I think we are not in the Nazi era. This is a MAD world and there is just no big prize for China to attack Japan. FOR WHAT? I am constantly amazed why people think Japan is SUCH a juicy target for China. If Japan is like Burma maybe with lots of resources and easier to tame populations with less means to fight back. Is Japan thinking of herself as such a big deal that other nations want to invade her?

    Have you noticed how circular this argument is?

    America's business is to MILK HER ALLIES while the good times last! When it is crunch time, that circular argument won't be THAT circular. America WILL find a way to WIGGLE OUT of her commitment either due to politics back home OR THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH aka a potential nuclear showdown with China!

    Yeah, see, it's that sort of thing that people interpret as "We are willing to invade other people's territory!"

    Just unlucky timing. Can't educate average joe who are easily confused and suspicious of everything China do! Just don't get it WHY China NEVER have AGGRESSION AS AN EXPANSIONIST POWER in the past, EVEN when she was a naval superpower and YET people just want to 'market' China as a monster? . China priority is to deny US China Seas access A2/AD and it cost lots of money to counter US weaponry.

    I commented elsewhere your responses. F22 with bunker buster losing stealth is unusable for deep attack into China. That is why I talk only about F35

  • 0

    hidingout

    I see the Americans are upset by the demonstrations. The reason is because they do NOT believe in the right of free speech and free assembly. If they truly believe in "American Values" they would withdraw the Marine force from Okinawa.

    Do you really believe that little demonstrations like the one pictured above have any significance whatsoever ? If the government of Japan asks the American forces to leave, I'm sure they would. A few hundred crackpots exercising their right to free speech and assembly do not speak for the entire nation. In all my years in japan I have never met one single person who wanted the Americans out.

    The people of Okinawa want their island back, it belong to us the people of Okinawa.

    Haha. Are you advocating independence here Yuri? Cause last I checked Okinawa was a prefecture in japan. They can follow the dictates of the federal government like all the rest of the prefectures do.

  • 2

    Wonbatto

    The reason is because they do NOT believe in the right of free speech and free assembly.

    I would disagree with this point - I haven't seen a single comment criticizing their right to protest or freely assemble. Comments (both for and against the protest) have been squarely focused on the content of the demonstration. Criticizing the content or style of a demonstration certainly does not mean opposing the right to demonstrate. Several commenters above have indeed expressed approval that Japan is so protective of the right of free expression, and that the protests have been peaceful, even if those commenters don't agree with the substance.

    I do think that, if one wants to protest against the US Military, a protest in Tokyo is more effective than in Okinawa (Though whether the protest is against the preponderance of bases in Okinawa, or against the US-Japan Alliance in general, I'm not quite clear). Nothing will change unless the national government pursues a sea change in defence priorities, and finds the economic and political will to make that happen.

  • 2

    cabadaje

    Geez, this response is all over the place. It's like having a discussion with the guy from Memento.

    Because it is a bunker busting bomb that will have more success due to it's stealth capabilities which older planes don't have.

    You understand that the F35 and the B61 are two separate things, right? A plane and a bomb?

    Older planes flying into China will more likely be shot down before reaching target vs F35

    That's...optimistic. Even saying "more likely", is optimistic. We're just going to have to disagree on this one. I can't think of any way China would be able to shoot down a properly escorted bomber of any kind. To be perfectly frank, I sincerely doubt China could even detect the attack until it was too late.

    Right now no peace treaty between Japan & China so there is no guidance how to conduct one's action and what CANNOT be done. Just say arms treaty between US and Russia, there is NO wiggle room, just do per agreement. Same can be said of a peace treaty where UNFRIENDLY ACTS are not allowed. Let the countries negotiate what they mean EXACTLY so there is no ambiguity. So you cannot put the carriage in front of the horse. You have to hammer out the rules of behavior in absolute clarity. In the end a country's honor is at stake if she don't abide by the treaty.

    Yeah, it's always in a country's best interest to abide by their treaties. Makes one wonder why you are so freely advocating the US break theirs.

    As far as this topic goes, I would submit that if two countries do not have a level of trust where they can even sit down for a proper peace treaty, then there is no way in heck they will ever be able to determine what is and what isn't an "Unfriendly Act". To even consider having one of these countries provide security for the other, that is ludicrous beyond belief. You are having difficulty figuring out which is the carriage and which is the horse. I will tell you that it is entirely possible neither actually exist right now.

    Yes, American assets can go to Guam and still be a Pacific Power with instant backup to Japan defense needs. Not such a traumatic loss of potency given American submarines naval air capabilities. Is Okinawa really that necessary?

    Let's not play the bait-and-switch game. It doesn't work well on a discussion board where everyone can just scroll up to see the relevant comment. You gave three reason why the US presence in China is "the real Devil". I pointed out that two and a half of your reasons had nothing to do with the US, and the remaining half could barely be considered an annoyance, let alone war rhetoric. If you can support why your reasons are the fault of the US, great, if not, then conceded the point.

    Seriouly China would like to buy over Okinawa but of course this won't happen. Would love to make Okinawa into a Disneyland for mainland and Japanese tourists to visit. The possibilities are endless! Once reluctant Okinawans see the possibilities they will join the bandwagon! People can be converted you know.

    I...can't tell if you are being serious...

    Of course people get confused! So here is my explanation. Border disputes, geopolitics, historical factors reset borders to where they are today re Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand non issue here. You can add Philippines same endless disputes but China NEVER attack across the ocean like Japan did to China. See the difference from border disputes? One is AGGRESSION/INVASION, the other is border territorial disputes so readers can see what I mean.

    So...when the Chinese military went across the South China Sea and took over the Spratley Islands and the Paracel islands, detained the fishermen who had their little huts there, and set up military bases on the islands...that is a border dispute. However, when Japan, over a hundred years ago, had a civilian check out the uninhabited islands,(which have NEVER had a Chinese population), asked out loud to the world if these islands belong to anyone, publicly claimed them as Terra Nulus when no one answered, and proceeded to administer them with not a single official complaint till the 1970's...that's AGGRESSION/INVASION?

    That doesn't offend your sense of logic?

    Whatever Japan have now is already very strong deterrent to keep China from making first move. But we don't know HOW MANY submarines Japan have. Those submarines actually may frighten China more than the jets or destroyers as they are super quiet electric diesel subs. It is Japan's own technology and no US help is necessary here. Ditto destroyers. Only seaborne early warning radar systems, fighter jets requires more US help. We may never know how many subs are hiding around Okinawa! Perhaps Japan own Epsilon Launch Vehicles missile launchers placed around Okinawa to launch missiles VERY QUICKLY is a big deterrent against any Chinese invasion.

    I won't bother commenting too much here, as I don't believe you are speaking from a knowledgable base, save to say that I will be very disappointed in the Chinese military if their primary military concern is a missile strike from the submarine fleet.

    Don't you hate the military guys!

    I'm rather ambivalent about them.

    They wear their uniforms, go to their War Room, make a few war analysis like Andrew Marshall and presto, out comes this China marvellous strategy!

    Well, yeah, that's what we pay them for...

    Nope, the world is much much more complicated than these generals simplistic thinking.

    We'll keep that in mind, Mr. Disneyland.

    Economic ties between China and Japan, Philippines, Taiwan, Vietnam and so forth are HUGE so is ANY sane government in China going to do as these military guys envision? They should go learn some realities about the deeply interconnected commercial relationships between these countries and understand WHY it is NEVER going to happen!

    The concern is precisely that. That China doesn't realise the intricate economic connections, and how they are being affected by its actions, not just on Senkaku, but in all its other disputes as well. As for NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!, the jury is still out as to whether that is precisely what did happen (and just failed).

    I think it is called putting on a show, TIT FOR TAT, (is it in reference to Japan 'TRACER BULLET' tough talk?)

    No, it's in reference to Clinton saying...Tony, c'mon, I had the exact quotes from Clinton when I responded to this. Are you reading the responses? It's kind of discouraging when you go through the trouble of looking up the data to support your position and then have someone completely ignore it.

    Perhaps you have numbers to back up your claim?

    Yes I do, but I don't think you are actually listening to the counter-arguments. You do acknowledge that China's Gini coefficient hit .5, right? You understand that out of China's 1.3 billion, less than .4 percent are "rich", less than 3 percent are "well-off", and about 1 billion of them are living at or below the "poverty" level?

    You understand that this is exactly why they are still a source of "cheap labor"?

    Small matter of course like rape and drunkard behavior, but the TENSION in the region will be much reduced if US just move further away, leave Okinawa and move to Guam for example.

    I agree, that is a small matter, relatively speaking. Seriously, you are putting rape and nuclear war in the same "Foreign Devil!" column? Is there no sense of proportion involved here?

  • 1

    cabadaje

    There is NO complacency.

    There's no peace either.

    All America have to do is to move to Guam and still have a credible Just In Time defense arrangement for Japan. To compensate give Japan more F35, F22 and seaborne radar.

    Already being done. As far as compensation goes, it isn't needed. No one is breaking any treaties. Japan and the US can actually sit down and talk to each other about their concerns.

    I think we are not in the Nazi era.

    Yes, psychotic hitchhikers were indeed the most terrifying part of Nazi Germany, however, I think the argument can be reasonably made that they do exist even to this day in other countries.

    "Nazi"...really...

    This is a MAD world and there is just no big prize for China to attack Japan. FOR WHAT?

    Same as many of their invasions. Strategic resources, positions, industries, leverage. The list goes on.

    I am constantly amazed why people think Japan is SUCH a juicy target for China. If Japan is like Burma maybe with lots of resources and easier to tame populations with less means to fight back. Is Japan thinking of herself as such a big deal that other nations want to invade her?

    Not other nations. Just China, specifically. But you do understand that China attacking Japan directly is not really any major concern, right? It's a concern, but not really a major one.

    America's business is to MILK HER ALLIES while the good times last!

    Of course. As is any country's. When a given country reaches the point of being a global player, the milking stops and you begin dealing with them as equals.

    When it is crunch time, that circular argument won't be THAT circular.

    Can't see how, and apparently you are unable to explain why.

    America WILL find a way to WIGGLE OUT of her commitment either due to politics back home OR THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH aka a potential nuclear showdown with China!

    Neither. We have no need to wiggle out, and it would not benefit us even if we did. China is not a major military threat to the US, and there is no danger of a nuclear showdown. This is not the 1980's.

    Just unlucky timing.

    Ah, no, it was pretty deliberate.

    Can't educate average joe who are easily confused and suspicious of everything China do! Just don't get it WHY China NEVER have AGGRESSION AS AN EXPANSIONIST POWER in the past, EVEN when she was a naval superpower and YET people just want to 'market' China as a monster?

    Who's marketing China as a monster? Aggressive, yeah, of course, and I won't dignify the silly plea above with an answer.

    F22 with bunker buster losing stealth is unusable for deep attack into China. That is why I talk only about F35

    I think you aren't quite up to date regarding the capacity of the US military.

    I also don't think you are an American/Chinese citizen, not working for the PRC.

  • 1

    Yubaru

    Actually bad memories start to fade away till Koizumi start visiting Yasukuni Shrine endlessly AND now Ishihara just unravel everything! Simply put without sensitivity to each other's feelings, there is only uneasy peace, just like Japan with the Koreas. Senkaku/Diaoyu islands LAND ITSELF is supposed to be a 'dead man's zone' with no development and that is fine with China until all this publicity that requires her to react.

    No they didn't, there were still problems prior to and after. I dont know how old you are but I've been here nearly 3 decades and the only reason people know about what's up NOW is because of the internet.

    Back then not everything made it across the ocean to America.

  • -3

    Tony Ew

    @hidingout

    Do you really believe that little demonstrations like the one pictured above have any significance whatsoever ? If the government of Japan asks the American forces to leave, I'm sure they would. A few hundred crackpots exercising their right to free speech and assembly do not speak for the entire nation. In all my years in japan I have never met one single person who wanted the Americans out.

    Arab Spring coming to your own backyard America! America is very very very very afraid of People Power! Just a few thousands repeated demonstrations over a few months of campaign will get viral and force US to move out of Okinawa! Everybody is learning from the Philippines Corazon Aquino People Power playbook.

    Same thing I might add in Taiwan as well. People Power will bring any government to her knees or cause big policy changes in her allies eg Japan in this case!

  • 2

    nigelboy

    Anyway, probably most of these protestors voted LDP--the party now low-towing to the US more than ever--so they're only going to see the twice promised base move forward. Suck it up, people; the US is there for your protection

    Dear smith.

    Most definitely not. They are, in essence, the same people that demonstrated "no nuclear" and "protect Article 9" group and has other posters said, they are not from Okinawa. To add further, these protestors would dearly welcome China taking over Senkaku simply because they despise their own government more than anything else.

    http://blog.livedoor.jp/genkimaru1/archives/1725969.html

    Weird ain't it? The people protesting against Osprey's in Okinawa and Iwakuni were not the locals but from somewhere else. Perception versus reality.

    Much like the anti-nuclear demos and the Tomorrow's Party that followed, the least amount of people sometime make the loudest noise.

  • 2

    cabadaje

    Arab Spring coming to your own backyard America!

    You are sooo working for the PRC!

    America is very very very very afraid of People Power!

    There's nothing to be afraid of. The people aren't going to do anything to us.

    Just a few thousands repeated demonstrations over a few months of campaign will get viral and force US to move out of Okinawa!

    The US is already moving out of Okinawa, and has been for quite some time. You are very much behind the 8-ball.

    Everybody is learning from the Philippines Corazon Aquino People Power playbook.

    Yes, because the US never had to deal with people power in our own country.

  • -3

    Tony Ew

    @cabadaje

    just relax man! 'Draining the swamp' just an expression to make Okinawa really US free, just let the Japanese arm themselves to the teeth. THAT is all it takes to CALM DOWN China! Nothing irritates China more than US massive shadow in her backyard, too close for comfort you know what I mean? That's why the A2/AD and Okinawa is high on the list.

    US IS afraid of being KICKED OUT of Okinawa, shown the door out! Not the physical kind, but the embarassing kind of being told 'You Overstayed, Now Leave!'

    US leaving Okinawa: least important aspect. Sending Marines to Guam is a great move, less irritant to locals in Okinawa, less rape. BUT the real asset that MUST NOT get into Okinawa is F35 especially in BIG numbers AND with B61 ready to do combat mission. THAT IS LIKE CUBA IN CHINA'S BACKYARD! THIS WILL PUT OKINAWA IN HARM'S WAY! F22 Raptors not such a big deal but that F35 is something else! Ditto No B2 B52 but they can fly out from Guam.

    SO I just thought about Cuba Missile Crisis, ring a bell? Nukes too close I suppose. Here is a little equivalence so you see US need to show sensitivity to China WHY F35 with B61 armed is too dangerous. Too close not just because of distance BUT because of Stealth flying out from Okinawa. AND each B61 up to 50 kt about 2-3 times nuke on Hiroshima/Nagasaki! But it appears not quite ready to be armed due to reconfiguration but China WON'T trust this info below since it is a top secret development and nobody knows exactly when F35 will start flying with the B61 -12 nukes.

    I did not talk about People Power here in US. I just making a general observation this is a world wide phenomenon. Oh yes we forgot, how convenient! Only recently Sept 2011 Occupy Wall Street! Almost becoming another Vietnam War Era protest. Lucky for US of course, winter weather kills the movement.

    I am not anti US. I just think go to Guam, stay away from Okinawa, place lots of early warning system there, everybody happy. China DARE NOT touch anything US given the hard reality of US overwhelming firepower, SO all those talks about China INVADING Japan is just plain disingenuous and annoying because it looks like your crowd need a whipping boy to keep the drumbeat going right?

    Excerpts: In May 2010 the National Nuclear Security Administration asked Congress for $40 million to redesign the bomb to enable the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II to carry the weapon internally by 2017.[11] This version is designated Mod 12.[12] The four hundred B61-12 bombs will be used by both tactical aircraft (such as the F-35) and strategic aircraft (such as the B-2) and the Tail Subassembly (TSA) will give them Joint Direct Attack Munition levels of accuracy, allowing the fifty kiloton warhead to have strategic effects from all carrying aircraft

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61nuclearbomb

  • 2

    cabadaje

    just relax man!

    Tony, you mistake my laughter for panic.

    'Draining the swamp' just an expression to make Okinawa really US free,

    Okay...

    Umm, why bring that up?

    just let the Japanese arm themselves to the teeth. THAT is all it takes to CALM DOWN China!

    Sure it does.

    Nothing irritates China more than US massive shadow in her backyard, too close for comfort you know what I mean? That's why the A2/AD and Okinawa is high on the list.

    Yes, because of all the times that the US has invaded China...oh, wait...

    Well then, it must be because of all the times the US has threatened to invade China...huh, that doesn't work either...

    You know, for the life of me, I really can't see any other reason for why China would have a problem with the US in Japan other than the US is interfering with some sort of Chinese plan that requires the US not to be in Japan.

    US IS afraid of being KICKED OUT of Okinawa, shown the door out! Not the physical kind, but the embarassing kind of being told 'You Overstayed, Now Leave!'

    Already addressed this three times, so I'm not going to bother repeating myself yet again. If you aren't reading the responses, don't bother asking the questions.

    US leaving Okinawa: least important aspect. Sending Marines to Guam is a great move, less irritant to locals in Okinawa, less rape.

    Yeah, it'll reduce the amount of rapes by at least...1...every 2-3 years...

    Even better, it'll reduce general crimes by US personnel by a good 40-50 arrests per year! You know, compared to the 4000+ other arrests per year.

    BUT the real asset that MUST NOT get into Okinawa is F35 especially in BIG numbers AND with B61 ready to do combat mission.

    Yeah, China might actually have to get aggressive and threaten invasion or something.

    THAT IS LIKE CUBA IN CHINA'S BACKYARD! THIS WILL PUT OKINAWA IN HARM'S WAY! F22 Raptors not such a big deal but that F35 is something else! Ditto No B2 B52 but they can fly out from Guam.

    Yeah...Tony, we have bombers that can fly around the world, deliver their load, and be on their way back before the soldiers on the ground look up at their screen to find out why it is beeping. Really, the capability to do what you are worried about is almost a decade old. It didn't start with the F35, and in all honesty, an F35 out of Guam or Okinawa would be unlikely to be a first strike choice anyway.

    Just relax, man. You are scaring yourself over something that has been around for a long time. Kind of pointless to get scared now.

    SO I just thought about Cuba Missile Crisis, ring a bell?

    Yeah, it was that very frightening period of time when the US was facing a country it was in a full-fledged lethal staring contest with, due to a direct and declared threat being escalated in secret, as in, trying to put in weapons of mass destruction in position without us knowing about it. Since the Cold War was remaining "cold" solely due to MAD, and MAD requires that your opponent is aware of your nuclear capabilities, sneaking in a first strike attack option gave us great cause to worry.

    China is neither a declared enemy of the US (in fact, by all accounts we are supposed to be allies) nor has it ever declared itself a threat, nor has it ever threatened the US with nuclear war. Similarly, there has not been anything secret about the US upgrading its hardware anywhere in the world. Heck, it's on the bases website.

    You are fond of making all these weak connections, but when all is said and done, you really have very little in the way of strong arguments. A thousand cups of weak coffee do not make a single cup of strong coffee.

    I did not talk about People Power here in US.

    Neither did I. You claimed the US is afraid of it. I pointed out that we neither had reason to fear, nor were we at all unfamiliar with it. The US is quite used to being hated.

    I just making a general observation this is a world wide phenomenon.

    World-wide wherever it's happening, you mean. I notice you don't bother comparing the events that are happening with all the other places with identical environments where they are not happening.

    Look, you keep doing this, and I want to point out that it isn't working. People aren't that stupid. When you have done it five or six times in a row, people start to notice that you are comparing negative US examples to--nothing. Over and over again. When you compare, you need something to compare it to. If you have an environment with the US present, and your claim is that the presence of the US results in anti-US demonstrations, you need to show that the numbers are in your favor. In other words, how many of these environments have demonstrations, and how many do not? If there is only a handful of places with anti-US demonstrations, and a ton of others without demonstrations, then you don't get to refer to it as a world-wide phenomena.

    I am not anti US.

    Yeah...not buying it. Still thinking you are working for the PRC.

    Excerpts: In May 2010 the National Nuclear Security Administration asked Congress for $40 million to redesign the bomb to enable the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II to carry the weapon internally by 2017.[11] This version is designated Mod 12.[12] The four hundred B61-12 bombs will be used by both tactical aircraft (such as the F-35) and strategic aircraft (such as the B-2) and the Tail Subassembly (TSA) will give them Joint Direct Attack Munition levels of accuracy, allowing the fifty kiloton warhead to have strategic effects from all carrying aircraft.

    Gee, Tony, seems like you skipped a kind of relevant part of the article. Kinda hard to miss, being as it was the paragraph directly in front of yours:

    "The early Mods 0, 1, 2, and 5 have been retired (Mods 6, 8, and 9 were cancelled before production), and the Mod 10 has been moved to the inactive stockpile, leaving the Mods 3, 4, 7, and 11 as the only variants in active service. The U.S. intended to refurbish the B61 bombs under its Life Extension Program with the intention that the weapons should remain operational until at least 2025. However, the United States Congress ordered that this work be stopped, pending reports from the National Academy of Sciences and JASON defense advisory panel."

    Yep. We really just do not like nukes.

  • -4

    Tony Ew

    @cabadaje

    What a lengthy rebuttal! OK I just make a simple albeit haphazard response here:

    You know, for the life of me, I really can't see any other reason for why China would have a problem with the US in Japan other than the US is interfering with some sort of Chinese plan that requires the US not to be in Japan.

    Blame it on your buddy Andrew Marshall Air Sea Battle plan. You read of plans to TAKE OUT CHINESE MISSILES SITES AND OF COURSE THE STEALTHY PLANES TOO? That is what keep the Chinese awake all night.

    Yeah...Tony, we have bombers that can fly around the world, deliver their load, and be on their way back before the soldiers on the ground look up at their screen to find out why it is beeping. Really, the capability to do what you are worried about is almost a decade old. It didn't start with the F35, and in all honesty, an F35 out of Guam or Okinawa would be unlikely to be a first strike choice anyway.

    Do I need to repeat to you? China is NOT EVER going to do first attack given US planes with nukes bombing capabilities. ALL THE WHILE THE CALCULUS IS COUNTER STRIKE CAPABILITIES TO SOBER UP US. I WANT TO REPEAT THE WINDOW TO LAUNCH DF21D, J20 TO TAKE OFF ETC THEY ALL NEED TIME to get off the ground. Minutes count and a MAD Chinese general may somehow bypass Mr Xi given the strong control the PLA have over military policies AND LAUNCH ATTACK FIRST! ANY STEALTH PLANES FROM OKINAWA ESPECIALLY NUKE CAPABLE F35 THAT HAVE 50 KT THAT IS ENOUGH TO DESTROY TWO - THREE HIROSHIMA'S IS THIS A RISK CHINA WANT TO TAKE? THAT IS WHY GET OUT OF OKINAWA OR NEVER PUT F35 THERE! First off considering the speed of modern warfare with nukes capable F35, ability to penetrate China air space, IT IS WITHIN UNDER AN HOUR and many targets can be hit.

    Not only is this fear of F35 with nukes a concern for China. OKINAWANS should be much more fearful as I said China may Strike First at Okinawa if she see the shadow coming!

    Not impressed with the old B52, even B2 parked in Guam. Satellites can see you! SPIES in Guam can alert China ahead of time, JUST LIKE SPIES IN OKINAWA can alert any unusual plane TAKE OFF PATTERNS. But again the focus is Counter Attack not initiating a first attack BY China.

    I want to repeat: THE AMOUNT OF TIME TO STEALTH ATTACK CHINA IS KEY IN CHINA CONSIDERATION. OKINAWA OFFERS A HALF HOUR POSSIBILITY TO DO INITIAL DAMAGE WITH F35 STEALTH THAT IS WHY NEVER PUT F35 THERE, TOO DAMN NEAR!

    THE REASON I WANT TO SAY CLEARLY IS CHINA WANT TO MAKE DAMN SURE THERE IS A POSSIBILITY TO LAUNCH A MASSIVE COUNTER ATTACK. TIMING IS KEY! YOUR BOMBERS FROM GUAM DOES NOT MATTER IN THIS MAD CALCULUS. IF CHINA MISSILES, STEALTH JETS CAN FLY, US JAPAN WILL THINK TWICE BEFORE ATTACKING FIRST. FYI F35 max speed 1200 mph, Shanghai 514 miles from Nahal Okinawa , so it is LESS THAN HALF HOUR to attack a big Chinese city OR a missile launcher or J20 airbases nearby BY STEALTH WITH NUKES!

    Thank you Andrew for your fine fine air sea simulation that freak out the Chinese! You call F35 with nukes in Okinawa a weak connection to Cuba missiles crisis? Just one nuke carries 2-3 times Hiroshima, you don't think this is lethal even though the Air Sea Battle is intended for military installations, why should China think it cannot be used for cities destructions too? PLUS each F35 can carry two at least of the B61 making it TWICE as lethal in one bombing run AND a squadron of perhaps a dozen F35, you see how massive the danger is!

    If you want China to repeat Cuba for you, she will have a visible show of force somewhere off the US East coast perhaps near Washington DC or a friendly base in Latin America. That will get US citizens to protest adventurous F35 deployment to Okinawa especially in Big Numbers PLUS B61 nukes ready!

    ...Excerpts: In May 2010 the National Nuclear Security Administration asked Congress for $40 million to redesign the bomb to enable the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II to carry the weapon internally by 2017.

    What? Only $40 million? The fact that F35 is nuke capable and it cost ONLY $40 million to reenngineer B61 to fit AND Congress can change her minds EASILY is reason for concern. Work can be done on the sideline while awaiting approval. Easily ready to arm F35 once funding comes in. OH I GUESS IT'S CALLED 'STEALTH' DEVELOPMENT! China is not naive and understand US politics!

    I am not wasting time ding dong on off topic material. Readers can judge for themselves. THE PEOPLE POWER ACTIONS IN OKINAWA, TAIWAN AFFECTS US PACIFIC POWER PROJECTIONS, THAT IS WHY THE PENTAGON IS DISPLEASED! You are going off into the deep end talking people power with no relevance here. Enough said.

    Don't believe me? Can't help you here! Right now while I type, NSA, FBI is sniffing every word I EVER WROTE since internet time! AND THEY can figure out themselves who I really am.

  • -4

    Athletes

    cabadaje Jan. 29, 2013 - 10:56AM JST

    China doesn't have vast markets. China has a smaller market than Tokyo. Where did you get that static from?

    For J car manufaturers, there is no other market like China.

    https://blog.modernwealthmanagement.co.uk/how-china-and-japans-senkakudiaoyu-islands-dispute-could-affect-the-world-markets/ http://investorplace.com/2012/10/japans-carmakers-are-losing-big-in-china/

    For Ginza busniess, Chinese tourists are irreplaceable.

    Pls refer to http://japandailypress.com/chinese-tourists-not-trooping-to-ginza-anymore-0719496

    I wager that several countries, Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand, and such, would argue the same, that China really had no reason to attack, and should peacefully return to its former border.

    Most of Thai have Chinese ancestors. Thai King and PM share the blood of China. When did China attack Thai? Vietnam invaded Cambodia. Henry Kissinager agreed that it was long term strategy for deterring Soviet. Therefore your post is misleading.

    cabadaje Jan. 29, 2013 - 11:56AM JST

    True enough. Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand just prodded a little by...existing, and Boom, China was all over them. Almost had no choice, really, practically backed into a corner by those...Buddhist monks.

    When was a Sino Thailand conflict? In fact China saved Thai from Vietnam for not becoming like Cambodia. US had fought with Vietnam before. It was humilated. Only PRC detered Vietnam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

    For Buddihist monk was pushed into Corner... China was a birth place of Maharana Buddhist monks. Unlike S E Asian Buddisht monks, they are Vegetarians.

    Dr Henery Kissinger and Nixon agreed Vietnam was aggressive. Vietnam was supported and armed by Soviet. Detering Vietnam like deterring Soviet too. Besides that US has been defeated by Vietcom in 1973. It was US interest for counter balancing both Vietnam and Soviet. If not Thailand, Burma, Laos shared the same fate of Cambodia. Pls do not put Thailand as US play ground anymore.

  • 0

    ryukyustriker

    ahahaha You think rally against the base is their agenda? Wrong its a paid free trip by polical parties against the base and nationalist party,and communist party. Its the same the other way around. People from Japan get flown to Okinawa to rally for one day against the base. Guess what a free trip to Okinawa if I protest against the base for a couple of hours. Deal. So then they just go on vacationing.

  • -1

    DudeDeuce

    Notice that the protestors are always old people. They never think about the thousands of young people in Okinawa who work on bases or military related jobs. If you take the bases out, will the Japanese government compensate the unemployed of Okinawa?

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