Abe, Park chat at APEC dinner

Abe's on a roll. At least he's finally making some progress.

Abe's on a roll. At least he's finally making some progress.

No, Park's the one finally making sense.

Sounds like the whole APAC thing was a walk in the park for Abe. Plus he got to wear that odd outfit. Putin looked happy as Larry in the picture.

Until Japan gets rid of Abe (or more likely his party if his approval ratings drop) we won't see an improvement in relations between South Korea or China

SK really gained huge profit by playing a role somewhere between US and China, China and Japan as well as Japan and US!

Abe could start by at least acknowledging the role of Japan's military in coercing the sex slaves. That would do a lot to mend relations

Chit chat.

Japanese news is reporting that China placed Park next to Abe at the welcome dinner yesterday. Chinese netizend are going crazy about it. What does it mean? Looking at other English media, posts are overwhelmingly against China. They see that Xi is just a reflection of an impolite people. That is crazy. I've been to China and had a great time! Well, that is in the gay districts of Beijing and Shanghai, which are much more lively than here in Japan. So who knows what Xi was doing. But it seems almost certain that it was for domestic consumption. But why Abe next to Park?

President Park probably felt sorry for Shinzo after seeing him greeted with contempt by Chinese President.

But why Abe next to Park?

Blame the English alphabet.

Christopher GlenNov. 11, 2014 - 12:53PM JST

Until Japan gets rid of Abe (or more likely his party if his approval ratings drop) we won't see an improvement in relations between South Korea or China

I remember the Chinese said in 2012 that things would not change unless PM Noda of DPJ steps down. PM Noda stepped down and PM Abe of LDP became PM of Japan two years ago. Now what?

No matter which party takes control of Japanese government, the principles will not change.

All political parties in Japan, including LDP, DPJ, Ishin, Komeito and Communist Party, agree on the following.

Senkakus are Japanese territory and there is no dispute.

The freedom of religion must be upheld.

The compensation for Korean comfort women was settled in 1965 by Korea Japan Basic Treaty that was ratified by both Korean Congress and Japanese Parliament.

The comfort women have never received compensation nor an official apology from the Japanese government.

I remember the Chinese said in 2012 that things would not change unless PM Noda of DPJ steps down. PM Noda stepped down and PM Abe of LDP became PM of Japan two years ago. Now what?

I stand corrected. Japan's entire leadership needs to be cleared away, like old dry wood.

StrangerlandNov. 11, 2014 - 05:53PM JST

The comfort women have never received compensation nor an official apology from the Japanese government.

Korean Ianfu did not get any compensation from Japanese government because Korean government gave up their rights in 1965 treaty which was ratified by Korean Congress. If Koreans have any self-esteem, they should stop being irresponsible for the acts of their own government.

Japanese government made official apology for ianfu. Any one can verify the facts through the internet. Some Koreans keep saying that there is no official apology since there is no parliamentary resolution. According to the Constitution of Japan, the Cabinet has the power of handling diplomacy and words of the Cabinet are binding in diplomacy. Parliamentary resolution is not binding and has no official power.

Korean Ianfu did not get any compensation from Japanese government because Korean government gave up their rights in 1965 treaty which was ratified by Korean Congress

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Totsuka-Etsuro/3885

The above link shows that this wasn't completely the case. Anyway, my previous post did not refer to compensation - but to the Japanese government simply acknowledging the military's role in coercing sex slaves. That it itself would do wonders for reconciliation.

Korean Ianfu did not get any compensation from Japanese government because Korean government gave up their rights in 1965 treaty which was ratified by Korean Congress.

As I said, the comfort women have never received compensation from the government of Japan.

Japanese government made official apology for ianfu. Any one can verify the facts through the internet. Some Koreans keep saying that there is no official apology since there is no parliamentary resolution. According to the Constitution of Japan, the Cabinet has the power of handling diplomacy and words of the Cabinet are binding in diplomacy. Parliamentary resolution is not binding and has no official power.

Unless and until the apology is official, and is essentially declared as law in Japan, the Japanese will never be taken seriously as having given an official apology. This is further reinforced by the fact that Japanese politicians regularly claim that there was no coercion - if there were a binding resolution by the government then these politicians would be dealt with harshly when making these claims.

Sure the Japanese like to imagine that they have apologized, but no other country agrees that they have. And unfortunately for the Japanese, the apologizer isn't the one who gets to determine whether or not the apology was good enough.

gokai_wo_maneku Nov. 11, 2014 - why Abe next to Park?

All the arrangements were agreed/ requested days ago by all members especially for important international meeting like this!

StrangerlandNov. 11, 2014 - 06:23PM JST

This is further reinforced by the fact that Japanese politicians regularly claim that there was no coercion

As far as Korean ianfu are concerned, I have never seen any convincing evidence that they were coerced by Japanese government. You may be familiar with these documents.

http://archives.republicans.foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/33317.pdf page 20

A few days later, Punsun knocked on my window early in the morning, and whispered to me to follow her quietly. I tip-toed out of the house after her. I lift without telling my mother. I was wearing a dark skirt, a long cotton blouse buttoned up at the front and slippers on my feet. I followed my friend until we met the same man who had tried to approach us on the riverbank. He looked as if he was in his late thirties and he wore a sort of People’s Army uniform with a combat cap. Altogether, there were five girls with him, including myself.

Was she coerced?

http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html

LIVING AND WORKING CONDITIONS (of ianfu)

They lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places. This was especially true of their second year in Burma. They lived well because their food and material was not heavily rationed and they had plenty of money with which to purchase desired articles. They were able to buy cloth, shoes, cigarettes, and cosmetics to supplement the many gifts given to them by soldiers who had received "comfort bags" from home.

"I have never seen any convincing evidence...."

That's because the Japanese did their best to destroy the "convincing evidence."

That's because the Japanese did their best to destroy the "convincing evidence."

So, you admit you have no evidence.

As far as Korean ianfu are concerned, I have never seen any convincing evidence that they were coerced by Japanese government.

So? You're blinded by the right. The Japanese government has admitted their culpability, so who are you to say they are wrong?

The Koreans for sure.

No matter what you throw the 1965 treaty sticks stating that the ROK Government accepts the compensation and burdens the responsibilities of compensation to the individual citizens affected by the annexation full stop.

It doesn't specify in anyways how they were involved during that period, meaning any wartime prosititues included.

I think you'll find that the argeements Japan was a signatory to in the link I posted earlier supersede the 1965 agreement. But in any case I'm not talking about compensation - a separate issue. I'm talking about Abe and co stopping pretending there is no evidence and admit the truth about what their military did

No matter what you throw the 1965 treaty sticks stating that the ROK Government accepts the compensation and burdens the responsibilities of compensation to the individual citizens affected by the annexation full stop.

As I've said, the comfort women have never received compensation from the Japanese government.

I find it ironic, to say the least, that some of those here who incessantly decry Western imperialism and chauvinism are some of the most strident and petty nationalist when it comes to their country.

I'm talking about Abe and co stopping pretending there is no evidence and admit the truth about what their military did

Which is what exactly?

If I were Abe and then I'll let both Chinese and S. Korean leaders passed their presidency because I don't like their body language when they met. For example, the host Chinese President Xi Jinping was late and Japanese PM Shinzo Abe has to wait for host to greeting him. President Xi didn’t reply to PM Abe when they met. It’s rude and impolite. I’ll translate as President Xi Jinping does not welcome PM Abe nor want to talk. Usually, the host President is waiting to greet guest leader. Also S. Korean President Park is playing domestic politic with past Japanese war history for her popularity among S. Korean peoples.

Does Japanese leader need to kneel down to both S. Korean and Communist Chinese Presidents?

Japanese Government should ignore both nation leaders and don’t talk negativity against both nations. Don’t talk and offense relate to past war between Japan and both nation. Do business as usual but don’t mix with politic. Talk positive toward both nations and peoples. Japanese Politicians need to shut their mouth for talking negative about past and current affair with China and S. Korea. Time will take-care and repair relationship with both countries.

StrangerlandNov. 12, 2014 - 01:08AM JST

As I've said, the comfort women have never received compensation from the Japanese government.

As I have said, that is because Korean government gave up all the compensation claims of the government and its citizens against Japan by accepting lump sum payment and agreeing any further claims be paid by Korean government.

Korean government gave up all the compensation claims of the government and its citizens

The comfort women did not give up this right.

Tying Strangerland and CH3CHO together, the simple and most logical solution is for the Korean government to compensate them.

Tying Strangerland and CH3CHO together, the simple and most logical solution is for the Korean government to compensate them.

Let's assume that they are not going to do it (which seems pretty clear they are not going to, or they would have). For the duration of the time in which the Korean government does not compensate them, this issue remains unresolved. And for as long as this issue is unresolved, the Japanese government looks bad, as they are the ones who were the coerced the comfort women. This issue is destabilizing the region, and effectively putting up barriers to trade and business between the two countries. A quick resolution would clear the issue, and allow things to move forward beyond this point, benefiting Japan. And when you consider the amount of compensation they would have to pay, compared to the amount of money they waste in other areas, it seems like a small investment and a proper apology would in turn open up a lot of trade and a lot more money.

So whether or not its logical to expect the Korean government to compensate them, it's in Japan's best interest to do so, since the Koreans aren't doing it.

the comfort women have never received compensation from the Japanese government

They did. When they were working as comfort women they got paid.

StrangerlandNov. 12, 2014 - 10:20AM JST

The comfort women did not give up this right.

The legal question is whether the government can forfeit the war reparation claims of its citizens in a peace treaty.

San Francisco Peace Treaty between Japan and 49 Allies including the US that concluded WW2 also has such a waiver clause.

There is a US court case in which a former US marine who was held as a POW by Imperial Japan during WW2 claimed compensation form Japanese government and Japanese government argued the compensation claims of US citizens were waived by the US government in the peace treaty. The US court ruled in favor of Japan. http://www.gwu.edu/~memory/data/judicial/POWs_and_Forced_Labor_US/ClassAction/Sept212000Decision.pdf

The judge commented in the ruling on the wisdom of a peace treaty as follows.

The Treaty of Peace with Japan, insofar as it barred future claims such as those asserted by plaintiffs in these actions, exchanged full compensation of plaintiffs for a future peace. History has vindicated the wisdom of that bargain. And while full compensation for plaintiffs’ hardships, in the purely economic sense, has been denied these former prisoners and countless other survivors of the war, the immeasurable bounty of life for themselves and their posterity in a free society and in a more peaceful world services the debt.

The legal question is whether the government can forfeit the war reparation claims of its citizens in a peace treaty.

The legal question is irrelevant if Japan wants to quickly resolve this issue. If the only question was the legal question, there would be no issue right now. The very fact that this issue is still an issue, and at the forefront of issues between Japan and SK, shows that there is more to it than just the legal question.

The big picture is that this issue is hampering Japanese-Korean relations. And as long as Japan sticks with the 'we already paid' stance, Korea will continue with the 'compensate our comfort women stance'. And as long as these two positions are held, no one is moving forward, and much business is held back.

StrangerlandNov. 12, 2014 - 11:46AM JST

The very fact that this issue is still an issue, and at the forefront of issues between Japan and SK, shows that there is more to it than just the legal question.

How funny. It is not an issue now. The war compensation issues were all settled and paid in full in 1965 by Korea Japan Basic Treaty. It has been alomst 50 years now.

And as long as Japan sticks with the 'we already paid' stance, Korea will continue with the 'compensate our comfort women stance'.

Either Japan or Korea is lying. Anyone can see who is lying just by reading the 1965 treaty.

It is not an issue now.

If that were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. If you bury your head in the sand, everyone else can still see you.

StrangerlandNov. 12, 2014 - 01:24PM JST

If that were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Of course, it is not an issue. Koreans should realize that they just lose potential businesses by openly ignoring agreements and asking double payments for the same thing.

I often hear horror stories by Japanese business persons working with Koreans about promise breaking, agreement ignoring, deceptive, and fraudulent business practices. Looking at the behavior of Korean government, I tend to believe in those horror stories.

A crying child does not get an extra candy, but will be disciplined.

Of course, it is not an issue.

Then why are we talking about it?

crying child does not get an extra candy, but will be disciplined

When the child is crying because you've raped it, you'd be better off giving it the candy. With your attitude you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Back on topic please.

If you bury your head in the sand, everyone else can still see you.

Well put. Japan is very much like the proverbial ostrich with its head in the sand (with regard to past history) It may be able to close its ears and mind by doing so - but Japan won't become invisible. South Korea may in the end settle for not getting compensation for the sex slaves - but constant whitewashing of history by Japanese right-wingers, and the refusal of the government to recognise the military's role in the coercion of sex slaves will make total forgiveness on the part of South Korea near impossible

Let's assume that they are not going to do it (which seems pretty clear they are not going to, or they would have). For the duration of the time in which the Korean government does not compensate them, this issue remains unresolved. And for as long as this issue is unresolved, the Japanese government looks bad, as they are the ones who were the coerced the comfort women. This issue is destabilizing the region, and effectively putting up barriers to trade and business between the two countries. A quick resolution would clear the issue, and allow things to move forward beyond this point, benefiting Japan. And when you consider the amount of compensation they would have to pay, compared to the amount of money they waste in other areas, it seems like a small investment and a proper apology would in turn open up a lot of trade and a lot more money.

If I didn't know better, it sounds like extortion to me.

The game of 'if you do this, we will no longer bring this issue' is exactly what transpired during the 1965 agreement, drafting of the Kono Statement, and the subsequent AWF with the latter two recently disclosed to the Japanese public. When such efforts and goodwill was betrayed by the Korean counterparts, the people of Japan are no longer in the mood to play this extortion game again.

Therefore, I think it's good that the Japanese government keep a distance from Korea for a summit is not only useless but unnecessary.

nigelboy Nov. 13, 2014 - 01:51AM JST Therefore, I think it's good that the Japanese government keep a distance from Korea for a summit is not only useless but unnecessary.

It's other way around. Korea wants to keep distance from Japan. The trade between two countries have decreased by 50 percent in the last decade. Japan has become insignificant trade partner. Korea only export half of what Japan sells to them.

The trade between two countries have decreased by 50 percent in the last decade. Japan has become insignificant trade partner. Korea only export half of what Japan sells to them.

This is good news.

The trade between two countries have decreased by 50 percent in the last decade. Japan has become insignificant trade partner. Korea only export half of what Japan sells to them.

This is good news.

Christopher GlenNov. 12, 2014 - 06:51PM JST

If you bury your head in the sand, everyone else can still see you.

Well put.

I thought he was taking about Korea.

South Korea may in the end settle for not getting compensation for the sex slaves.

That is what happened 49 years ago,by agreeing Korea Japan Basic Treaty of 1965.

The 1965 treaty was irrelevant as the previous agreements Japan had signed on slave "labour" etc held prior precedence. As this link (which you clearly haven't read) shows http://www.japanfocus.org/-Totsuka-Etsuro/3885 Japan will never obtain reconciliation with South Korea (and the North too) till it settles the sex slaves issue. (Of which there were plenty of western women from the Dutch East Indies as well) The Japanese government (and yourself) can huff and puff about the 1965 treaty all you wish. Again I state that Japan will NOT be able to move on till this issue has been settled. (Who knows, if they acted in good faith in this they might even get South Korea to negotiate over Dokdo)

Christopher GlenNov. 13, 2014 - 02:29PM JST

Read the 1965 treaty. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Agreement_Between_Japan_and_the_Republic_of_Korea_Concerning_the_Settlement_of_Problems_in_Regard_to_Property_and_Claims_and_Economic_Cooperation

Article II

1 The High Contracting Parties confirm that the problems concerning property, rights, and interests of the two High Contracting Parties and their peoples (including juridical persons) and the claims between the High Contracting Parties and between their peoples, including those stipulated in Article IV(a) of the Peace Treaty with Japan signed at the city of San Francisco on September 8, 1951, have been settled completely and finally.

3 As a condition to comply with the provisions of paragraph 2 above, no claims shall be made with respect to the measures relating to the property, rights, and interests of either High Contracting Party and its people which were brought under the control of the other High Contracting Party on the date of the signing of the present Agreement, or to all the claims of either High Contracting Party and its people arising from the causes which occurred prior to that date.

The essay you linked discuss,

Therefore, Japan cannot argue that the continuous obligation for compensation on the grounds of non-punishment was resolved by the 1965 agreement, which has no provision for any criminal matters.

I think that is a very far fetched argument.

When President Pak Sr. signed the 1965 treaty, he fully understood that the lump sum payment settled everything and any further claims must be paid by the Korean government. He used the money for development of Korea and every Korean today is a beneficiary to the payment. It is ironic that his daughter is denying what he did.

Right back at you

However, the Japanese Government refused to admit any legal obligation to compensate the comfort women on the ground that "the claims issues between Japan and the Republic of Korea had been resolved by an agreement, signed on 27 June 1965 on the settlement of the problems concerning property and claims, and on the economic cooperation between Japan and the Republic of Korea." The obligations for punishment, however, were not resolved by the said agreement, as the terms of the agreement limit the scope within "the issues as regards properties, rights and interests..." (art. 2 of the agreement). Therefore, Japan cannot argue that the continuous obligation for compensation on the grounds of non-punishment was resolved by the 1965 agreement, which has no provision for any criminal matters. It is clear that it did not relinquish the Japanese government’s obligation for punishment.

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Totsuka-Etsuro/3885

Japan has become insignificant trade partner. Korea only export half of what Japan sells to them.

But what Korea imports are the machine parts from Japan, which is necessary for them to make their products to sell. So, I think it's significant.

Right back at you

Actually no.

The concept of "State is bound by the obligation to make reparation, namely compensate, if the State breaches the obligation to punish" is far fetched considering the fact that none of these comfort women identified their Korean parents, Korean recruiters, and their Korean operators. Even if they do so (if they are alive that is), they have the legal recourse to do it in their own country which they have not done so.

Is Ms. Park's election time coming up soon?