Abe says door to dialogue with China open

No thanks, Abe's rhetoric that his neighbors have long ignored.

Might as well have dialogue with a fence post rather than with China, the results would probably be better. China does not want dialogue. It finds it very convenient to have Japan for an enemy, it has no interest in friendly relations with Japan.

Don't forget the KY Abe San...,

[China] finds it very convenient to have Japan for an enemy, it has no interest in friendly relations with Japan.

On the contrary, the Party establishment has (for a decade and more now) often worked behind the scenes to squelch the surges in anti-Japan sentiment among the general populace, particularly when it comes to broadcast media. I suspect the latest spate of irredentalist rhetoric from China is a move from the NK leverage playbook, but for something a bit more abstract than food aid. Considering Japan's harder economic hit from the souring relations, I wouldn't be surprised if that was a calculated result.

And anyway, compared to the brazen opining of who to carpet bomb next coming regularly from elected officials in the United States, I'd say this is all still pretty softball. Abe will want certainly want to cozy back up to the world's largest auto market for one of Abenomics' backbone export industries.

I have lived in China for 15 years now. The Chinese have lost interest in everything Japanese and Japan in the past year. This is so different from years ago when everything Japanese or Japan are held in awe. Japanese cars, Japanese electrical products and even Japanese fashion clothings are now no longer in vogue. People here are simply no longer interested even if prices have gone down significantly. Somehow the Chinese have shifted their focus and Korea, Europe and the US are now the new vogue. Traveling to Paris, London, Rome and other European cities and Seoul carries greater fun! Buying European fashion and even US underwear are now the new vogue. Abe better do something really fast or else the situation will simply get worse and the Chinese couldn't care less. Of course Japan can also ignore China and pretend nothing has changed. Then Japan really must work extremely hard to win all nations, except China, over!

To open dialogue leaders should have the determination and sincerity to follow through not just paying lip service.

After making mess, clowns begin to clean up, but going too far to come back. China's door has closed.

RedcliffJun. 21, 2013 - 11:31AM JST

To open dialogue leaders should have the determination and sincerity to follow through not just paying lip service.

Japanese politicians must be some of the worst negotiators on this planet. Only this week they again got a chance to discuss the southern Kuriles with Russia and what do they do........ start of from the old stance that all 4 islands belong to Japan.

It's the same with China... we want dialogue......... but the Senkakus are ours.

I don't know why countries bother with dialogue with Japan, they should just adopt the American approach to negotiations with Japan, 'it's my way or the highway'. America realized a long time ago that when deal with Japanese politicians, you were dealing with a bunch of cognitively challenged 11 years, who because they got their own at home, expect the world to follow likewise.

Asian2013Jun. 21, 2013 - 11:12AM JST

I have lived in China for 15 years now. The Chinese have lost interest in everything Japanese and Japan

The sad reality, which a few of us on here, Smithinjapan et al, predicted would happen, if Japan played to Ishihara's tune, when it came to Sino-Japanese affairs. Others on here took the attitude that China needed Japan, more than Japan needed China and China would have to come round to Japan's position. Well there you go, the Chinese found others to sell them products and Japan is left holding all its manufactured goods that it can't sell... Maybe Kuroda and the BOJ can buy them?

Japan has done nothing wrong. The Japanese government could not let the Chinese arrogance about islands pass unchecked. I think they have succeeded so far even though theres an economic fee involved. Lets hope that the Chinese government has learned their lesson and use nothing but internationally recognized diplomacy henceforth, at least when they try to grab land/resources based on some nationalistic historical ideas. And no Japan does not need to win over other countries, they already have the respect of most countries. Abes general ideas is no favorite of mine but his economical policy is exactly what Japan needs right now. If the west plays along it will have turned the economy to good progress in 4-6 years.

When will Abe stop taking orders from the Obama regime and start to lead Japan like a leader in his own right! We've been taking orders from America ever since they drop the A bomb here.

and you should continue taking orders from 'murica if you know whats good for you

Honne/Tatemae. This article of course is merely 'tatemae' for Abe really doesn't care to meet China's counterpart from the very beginning as evidenced by his and his cabinet ministers' visits other than China and SK as well as leaders from other nations visiting Japan during his tenure.

So far, China's efforts to have a "diaglogue" with Japan has been deduced to summoning irrelevant and retired lawmakers such as Hatoyama, Murayama, and Nonaka who have absolutely no influence in Japan. It use to be that Ozawa and his minions would be summoned but even he, despite being an active lawmaker, would not go there for he may risk more losses in his irrelevant party in the next upcoming election.

Everybody knows that Abe is using the islands dispute for his own political gains. Yet, failing to see that in this case economics and politics are mixed to a large degree and that the Chinese are no longer in favour of Japanese products like before. If this issue doesn’t get fixed soon, Japan will lose out in this most lucrative market in the world. Everybody is turning attention to China and President Xi has been busy greeting dignitaries from all over the world, even most recently Vietnam. This is not the first time that Abe wanted to have a dialogue with China and his obvious intention is to be invited to China. Those Japanese “irrelevant and retired lawmakers” are just the image builders for China. We didn’t see China approach higher-level Japanese officials to get results. On the surface, for the world to see China has tried to have a dialogue with Japan but in fact China doesn’t care at all. As has been mentioned by China many times, Japan created the mess so it should be Japan to make amend and approach China. Recently we can notice that the rhetoric against China has subsided. Has China stopped patrolling in the area? I think not, but it’s not being mentioned any more. Abe thinks now is the time to get invited to China, however, it will take more than public speech for China to bend.

Those Japanese “irrelevant and retired lawmakers” are just the image builders for China.

It's simply a ploy to brainwash their already brainwashed citizens that there are "influential" people in Japan that still cater to them. (Hatoyama's visit headlines newspapers in China, LOL) Except for the inconvenient fact that these citizens don't know that they are no longer "influential" but are outcasts in Japan.

As many SE Asians have already realized, China behavior is and always will be the threat of force.

Has China stopped patrolling in the area?

Point proven. Always barbaric.

Abe thinks now is the time to get invited to China, however, it will take more than public speech for China to bend.

Hate to break it to you but it's been tatemae all along. The request by Chinese to meet with Japan under Chinese conditions have been promptly refused. That was fast.

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/world/news/130621/chn13062120320003-n1.htm

Except for the inconvenient fact that these citizens don't know that they are no longer "influential" but are outcasts in Japan.

A little harsh to say they are outcasts, don’t you think? They served the purpose for China.

As many SE Asians have already realized, China behavior is and always will be the threat of force.

Reaching too far again, China has never used force unless being provoked or threatened first. China has never been the initiator of any conflicts whether it be with India, Vietnam, Japan, or Philippines. Logics show that If China is a real aggressor how comes it doesn’t have any conflicts with N.Korea, Cambodia, Laos, or Thailand which are much smaller countries and can be easily taken over. China didn’t even have much influence in those countries. So, it doesn’t make any sense at all to say that China has an expansionist agenda as some people may think. The Image of China has been improving day by day as seen from having the most powerful computer in the world to reaching into space in the most efficient way. Even in the case of cyber espionage which now shows the US has been the one doing it all along also has improved China’s image.

As I mentioned before China will not bend so if Abe wants to have a dialogue he will have to agree to the conditions set forth by China because of the mess his government created. China is very patient as seen from its handling of cases such as Taiwan and Hong Kong. Time is on China side. Either Japan digs itself out of the hole now with the help of China or being suck into the oblivion. As they say, “heaven can wait, but Japan can’t.”

flowers Jun. 22, 2013 - 03:56AM JST Reaching too far again, China has never used force unless being provoked or threatened first. China has never been the initiator of any conflicts whether it be with India, Vietnam, Japan, or Philippines. Logics show that If China is a real aggressor how comes it doesn’t have any conflicts with N.Korea, Cambodia, Laos, or Thailand which are much smaller countries and can be easily taken over. China didn’t even have much influence in those countries. So, it doesn’t make any sense at all to say that China has an expansionist agenda as some people may think.

Are you kidding? There is no bilateral negotiations with China. Why don't you tell me about Sansha? China's newest city Sansha is a remote island in the South China Sea barely large enough to host a single airstrip. It has a post office, bank, supermarket and a hospital, but little else. Welcome to Sansha, China's expanding to world's most disputed waters, portions of which are also claimed by Vietnam, the Philippines and other neighbors. The Philippines does not recognize the city or its jurisdiction, and Vietnam said China's actions violated international law. China just stole it.

sfjp330, I think you mentioned about Sansha before and I already gave you my opinion. Sansha belong to China, China didn’t steal anything. People living in Sansha are Chinese, right? Let’s say before China taking over, were there any Vietnamese or Filipino living there? Or, did the Chinese kill them all? China only tried to take back what she lost before, nothing more nothing less. Some people said Okinawa belong to China too, historically saying it might be true, but China has drawn a line on that, that is China only tried to take back what really belong to China in the first place.

flowers Jun. 22, 2013 - 01:30AM JST the Chinese are no longer in favour of Japanese products like before.

Flowers, you own fabulous Chinese car, but what about other Chinese consumers? Why aren't they boycotting Japanese products?

Toyota’s output in China rose 8.7 percent to 72,955 units in April. Production at Nissan, gained 7.1 percent, and Honda Motor Co. posted a 5.9 percent increase, according to figures from the companies last month.

www.bloomberg.com/.../toyota-s-china-sales-rise-in-signal-anti-japan- sentiment-easing.html

A little harsh to say they are outcasts, don’t you think? They served the purpose for China.

Not harsh. Just a reality. Like you said, they did serve the purpose for China.

Reaching too far again, China has never used force unless being provoked or threatened first.

Not really. Just in the case of Senkaku, China's encroachment started after the discovery of underwater resources. Same goes for South China Sea.

As I mentioned before China will not bend so if Abe wants to have a dialogue he will have to agree to the conditions set forth by China because of the mess his government created. China is very patient as seen from its handling of cases such as Taiwan and Hong Kong. Time is on China side. Either Japan digs itself out of the hole now with the help of China or being suck into the oblivion. As they say, “heaven can wait, but Japan can’t.”

And his answer was no. The time to take Senkaku was over decades ago when Japan had absolutely no interest protecting the islands. With China's daily incursion, you made Abe's job much easier to fortify her defence without little conflict from the Japanese populance. Just few years ago, even mentioning about the amendment of the consitution was a taboo among lawmakers but thanks to China, it's even on the election agenda.

As a government it is in their duties to acknowledge the wrongdoings of their forefathers and help prevent such things from occurring again. Unfortunately, the same history has countless, consistent denial by high-ranking Japanese officials denying that sadistic war time crimes ever took place. Japan has been unwavering in upholding as their national heroes, the war criminals of WWII, where their highest ranking officials pay offical hommage to. This is far from being apologetic, but a slap in the face of the neighboring countries with a clear expression of "i'm not that sorry." Making a statement, then following it up with actions that go directly against this statement, naturally will not be taken at face value.

I'm all for Japan to fortify its defenses. Japan should start with the Ospreys, preferably buy at least 100-150 so you can have a single launch of a brigade.

Negotiation is dead between China and Japan. All Abe is doing is PR on how he's not the aggressor and is open minded to peaceful resolution. But when he goes around the world hammering on how China is a threat and make friends with countries that alienate China, why would China want to talk to you?

Japan can call the Chinese as intruders but China and most Chinese see Japan as thieves and rapists. It doesn't really matter what the gov't does at this point in time. The Chinese people have lost interest in Japan's clout and aura. If you go to China, which I often do for business, Japan is past tense. Their best workers used to want to work for Japanese companies, nowadays, only the 3rd tiers who couldn't get into the US, European or even Taiwanese companies would go work for the Japanese. The students learning Japanese language had dropped significantly and the interest of Japanese pop and anime culture is diminishing to almost out of sight.

I've always said this about Japan, everything Japan can produce, so can everyone else. And what Japan can produce is not the essential things that can make or break another country. That's why its a mirage that Japan is a economic superpower. To the core of the matter, everything Japan does is completely dependent on the cooperation and honestly grace from others.

I think Japan should consolidate all these useless and repetitive entities into 1 or 2 giant conglomerate. Otherwise, Japan might just as well focus on internal consumption when others grow tired of you. The US market is only good for maybe another decade or two for Japan. You see Hyuandai and Kia making moves in US already taking marketshare from Toyota and Honda. Wait till the Chinese brands develops and start building in US, or partner up with GM or Tesla, then its all over.

sfjp330Jun. 22, 2013 - 05:18AM JST

Flowers, you own fabulous Chinese car, but what about other Chinese consumers? Why aren't they boycotting Japanese products? Toyota’s output in China rose 8.7 percent to 72,955 units in April. Production at Nissan, gained 7.1 percent, and Honda Motor Co. posted a 5.9 percent increase, according to figures from the companies last month.

No matter how you and others try to paint it. Japanees companies have taken a hit

'Toyota's sales in China tumbled 44% in October from a year earlier following a 49% plunge in September amid a consumer backlash due a flare-up in tensions over a group of islands in the East China Sea claimed by both nations.'

'On Monday, Mazda Motor Corp 7261.TO +1.33%. said its October sales in China fell 45% compared with the year-ago period to 9,511 vehicles. U.S. and other foreign auto makers reported sales increases in China last month on rising demand.'

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204349404578100011790486432.html

'Honda's December 2012 sales fell by 19.2%'

http://www.chinacartimes.com/2013/01/honda-sales-drop-31-2012/

I could source on and on, do a little bit of research. Meanwhile VW GM and Hyundi, to name a few have taken up the slack caused by the Japanese loss.

Dog, no wonder you have your Chinese Geeley car parked outside. If you look at the resale value of 5 years old Toyota Camry or Corolla and compare with your Geely, VW, GM or Hyundai, you will notice that Toyota has best resale value. To Chinese consumers, they know. You cannot fool the public. You can sell used Toyota very easily, but selling 5 years old Geely? Good luck.

There will be limits on how much innovation such a system can generate, even if China keeps growing this decade. For all its changes, China still has "extractive" political institutions, those that direct resources away from the people and toward the state and a small number of its elites. Unless China fundamentally reforms its political institutions, a change that seems unlikely in the short term, a path of economic growth followed by relative decline is more likely than a path of long-term increasing prosperity.

sfjp330Jun. 22, 2013 - 06:32AM JST

Dog, no wonder you have your Chinese Geeley car parked outside. If you look at the resale value of 5 years old Toyota Camry or Corolla and compare with your Geely, VW, GM or Hyundai, you will notice that Toyota has best resale value. To Chinese consumers, they know. You cannot fool the public. You can sell used Toyota very easily, but selling 5 years old Geely? Good luck.

Just showed you that what you wrote was guff.

As for 2nd hand car sales... well it shows how much you know about Chinese culture.... A Kiwi, Oz or Yank might be happy for the family to drive around in a second hand vehicle, but in China its degrading for the status.

It's new or nothing at the personal level of consumption.

Dog, I understand you live in China. But why is your country so dependent on foreign manufacturer to build cars for you? If China is so progressive as you say, why don't China build competitive cars and kick out the foreign manufacturers? At this point, the Chinese manufactured cars like Geeley are worthless with no demand on international market. Maybe Chinese cannot build good cars on their own? All they want to do is copy and reverse engineering and no innovation?

sfjp330Jun. 22, 2013 - 07:20AM JST

Dog, I understand you live in China. But why is your country so dependent on foreign manufacturer to build cars for you?

I don't, I live in Japan. I have working connections with the car industry, steel supplying, and visit China on business.

All they want to do is copy and reverse engineering and no innovation?

I remember people saying the same thing about the Japanese in the 1970s. Give the Chinese time.

Anyway off topic. Again, I was just pointing out how your comment was totally groundless and Abe's actions are hurting the Japanese export market to China,

It's the same with China... we want dialogue......... but the Senkakus are ours.

Pefectly sums up Chinese ;) Particulary I loved a gyop who wrote that he lives in China for fifteen years and writing that travelling to Seoul is much more fun than Tokyo :D

ShankunJun. 22, 2013 - 08:15AM JST

Particulary I loved a gyop who wrote that he lives in China for fifteen years and writing that travelling to Seoul is much more fun than Tokyo

I generally don't like Koreans although I've been going there, on and off, for the last 20 years.

10 years ago, I too would have laughed at such a comment, but Seoul is now way more cooler than Tokyo, which seems to be trapped in the 1980s. The shopping and choice of goods are amazing, the night life is better and the place seems totally alive.

You should give it a weekend trip.

Dog, I too had lived in Japan and China is exactly like Japan in the 1970s. Only real difference is the Chinese huge consumer market and the exponential growth rate that no country has ever seen.

To give a human perspective of how others have perceived China, if you visit any major city in US nowadays, especially tourist spots, the first thing I or others would ask an east Asian looking person would be if they're from China. 20 years ago, everything is about Japan and no one else.

That's how the world has changed. Japan has gone from significantly relevant to irrelevant in the eyes of many. That's dangerous for Japan.

Everyday including Sunday or public holiday is for dialogue if Mr Abe has 'sincerely' to talk. The distance from Tokyo to Peking is very close and he doesnt need to to travel around the world to find Chinese leaders for talks

10 years ago, I too would have laughed at such a comment, but Seoul is now way more cooler than Tokyo, which seems to be trapped in the 1980s.

If you can't get fun in Tokyo you won't get enywhere else I bet...

Abe and sincere in a sentence is an oxymoron. Abe wants dialogue with china? Ironic since under Abe they have done everything they can to push the Chinese from wanting dialogue.

From trying to redefine and downplay its war aggression toward china, show support of its wartime agression with the record number of politicians that publicly visited yasukuni this year to its secret engagement with north Korea at a time when the international community and even china has tried to work together to deal with north Korean as an international bloc, Japan has done everything it can do reduce trust and prevent dialogue

Well done Abe for not only preventing dialogue with China but also for distancing yourself from the US south Korea and Taiwan. How awesome you are at international diplomacy

You do not negotiate to give away all or part of your territory that belongs to Japan under international law. If China really believes that they own the Senkaku Islands they would take their claim to the International Court of Justice and have them rule on their claim instead of trying to seize the islands using threats of force, bullying, intimidation, coercion and economic warfare. Not to mention staging anti-Japanese riots in China while the police stood idly by and let them happen. Unless and until China becomes a mature and responsible country with mature diplomacy, it will always be embroiled in disputes with its neighbors, as it is with the Philippines, Vietnam and India as well as Japan.

China will never change as long as the CPC needs "outside enemies" to ensure its hold on power, especially now with the Chinese economy slowing.

Putting politics aside, the common folks in China are no longer really interested in Japan anymore. At least for the moment. Twenty years ago it was everything Japanese! Japanese sushi, even if they don't know how to eat it. Sony,Panasonic, Daikin etc., even Japanese cigarettes! It was such a great prestige to own a Honda in Guangzhou. Japanese language tutors were the rage whether they were bonafide or not! Japanese cameras were in every tourist hand and Japanese fashion was copied everywhere. Today, it is eerily everything non Japanese. Japanese sushi shops are no longer sprouting all over the place. Japanese fashion is dead and no longer do people learn to sing Japanese songs. Taiwanese food is now totaling replacing the Japanese cuisine. Look at the foreign vehicles in China! It is either a Buick, a VW or Hyundai. Mercedes is outselling the Lexus and Camry and Toyota Crown, which I had as a company car in 2002, is dead on the tracks! Panasonic just folded it's exhibition hall in Beijing and the likes of Philips and Samsung are eating the Japanese clean in the electrical department! There are more H&Ms and Zaras than there are Uniqlos. CK underwear stores are all over the place and nobody buys Japanese underwear anymore. I can go on further. But the point is, Japan and Japanese are no longer in the Chinese radar screen. The common folks are simply not bothered or interested at the moment. It is not because of the Communist government. If it was, then the Geely, Konka, Hisense, Red flags, Dongfeng, Chery and a million other Chinese products would be ruling the market. Not MacDonalds,Kentucky, Pizza Hut, Ikea, Walmart and Carrefour etc. Vietnam said last week, "a good neighbor is more more important than a relative far away." Tomorrow China and India begin high level talks on their borders and to increase 2 way trade. Europe and China have begun cooperation in Suzhou style industrial parks. There are more Africans studying in China than ever before and Australia understand now how closely related and dependent their GDP is linked to China. America is selling their corporations to Chinese businesses faster than ever before. Of course not everything is rosy in China's way, but Japan can continue it's current course, very much to the delight of China!!!