Abe seeks security ties with Australia, India

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  • 0

    semperfi

    That is an excellent move - - - - - - - to ratify alliances with these two strong countries that keep KNOW what it meas " tok eep ones WORD" their word and t0 work collaboratively .

  • 2

    semperfi

    Both countries-- of course - - have a long history in British-inspired democractic paradigm and human rights - - ..............................So even if there are areas that need improvement ( as there is in any country) we are all speaking the same 'language'.

  • -5

    some14some

    "jack of all trades master of none." Too many agendas, btw, what India has to offer in security field? role of a middleman between Russia and Japan?

  • 5

    paulinusa

    Australia is of course a long time US ally and India has disputed borders with China for over a hundred years, so this is something India and Japan have in common.

  • 2

    paulinusa

    And by the way,considering the current state of business with China, Japan would like develop more economic ties with India, the second most populous country in the world.

  • 1

    SamuraiBlue

    A Japan- India alliance can pave way to a safer passage within the Indian sea where Japan has no control at the moment. With the assistance from the Australians this can be stretched in the SE Asian ocean as well while Japan provides hardware like the P1 marine patrol plane and/or the Soryu type subs.

    Another important alliance is with Myanmar in which there is discussion about developing a massive freight line between Mawlamyaing and Vietnam which will bypass the Strait of Malacca completely which is infested with pirates at the moment.

  • 2

    lucabrasi

    With the assistance from the Australians this can be stretched in the SE Asian ocean....

    Unless the Japanese stop whaling, the Australians aren't going to be all that eager to help any kind of maritime project....

  • 1

    tian4670

    Australian will not be dragged into territory dispute. Forget about it.

  • 2

    OssanAmerica

    lucabrasiDec. 30, 2012 - 01:26PM JST "With the assistance from the Australians this can be stretched in the SE Asian ocean.... Unless the Japanese stop whaling, the Australians aren't going to be all that eager to help any kind of maritime >project....

    The Australians have already been aboard the US-JPN 2 plus 2 defense meetings for years now. You seem to think that a topic like "whales" has some priority over national security?

  • 3

    OssanAmerica

    tian4670Dec. 30, 2012 - 06:31PM JST Australian will not be dragged into territory dispute. Forget about it.

    US Marines are now stationed in Australia. Guess why? If you think China has effectively turned its territorial expansion agenda into separate bi-lateral territorial issues...well I think you're the one who needs to forget about it.

  • 0

    tian4670

    Have a careful check of terms and conditions of US, Australia alliance. Australia is only required to fight when American is attacked. This does NOT extend to third party, let alone third party woven in bitter territory dispute with every single neighbor.

  • 0

    samboraki

    Australia seems to get draged into all the US conflicts, just mention terrorism.

  • 0

    OssanAmerica

    tian4670Dec. 31, 2012 - 07:36AM JST Have a careful check of terms and conditions of US, Australia alliance. Australia is only required to fight when >American is attacked. This does NOT extend to third party, let alone third party woven in bitter territory dispute with >every single neighbor.

    Tian, all of Asia and the rest of the world is on to China's expansion agenda. The PLAN themselves said that their goal was to break the First Island Chain, which is why they are fixated on the Senkakus. It isn't going to happen. All of Asia considers China to be the biggest threat.

  • 1

    SamuraiBlue

    tian4670

    Basically it really doesn't matter since it does not define American soil. So if Japan is somehow attacked by PRC and the US enters and attacked as well then the US-Australia alliance also comes to effect. That is why there are 2pls2 defence meetings taken place.

  • -4

    Outta here

    Personally l do not think that we as a nation should enter into defense agrrements with Japan in any form. The japanese are reckless, recalcitrant, and has a history of aggravating their neighbors. They have numerous border disputes with numerous neighbors and they refuse to acknowledge other nations wishes on other matters. So as an Australian taxpayer and voter l do not want any military ties with Japan. As the old sayin goes, you lay down with dogs you end up with fleas and this would be fitting to any alliance with the Japanese.

  • 0

    tian4670

    I am Australian. My government has already clarified the pact only effective if US is attached, not that US is on offensive side.

    The PLAN themselves said that their goal was to break the First Island Chain, which is why they are fixated on the Senkakus.

    First Island Chain is US led containment of China. Nobody wants to be 'contained'. So trying to 'breakout' should NOT be viewed as aggressive or on expansion.

    I've been to US before, which is a great country that highly value 'Freedom'. US people does not want to lose freedom. Neither Chinese wants to.

  • 0

    SamuraiBlue

    tian4670

    Still the same since the US will be attacked **DEFFENDING ** the Senkaku which will require Australia to participate.

  • 0

    blackrock

    I've been to US before, which is a great country that highly value 'Freedom'. US people does not want to lose freedom. Neither Chinese wants to.

    But first I really wish Chinese people could break free themselves.

    Back to the topic, PRC has become the real threat to world's peace, hence all the fuzz. I don't like US to act as world's police either, but considering between the 2, I would side with US any day.

  • 2

    OssanAmerica

    Outta hereDec. 31, 2012 - 01:27PM JST Personally l do not think that we as a nation should enter into defense agrrements with Japan in any form. The japanese are reckless, recalcitrant, and has a history of aggravating their neighbors. They have numerous border >disputes with numerous neighbors and they refuse to acknowledge other nations wishes on other matters.

    Oh so Japan's history 70 years ago is more important than the way China is behaving today?

    So as an >Australian taxpayer and voter l do not want any military ties with Japan. As the old sayin goes, you lay >down with dogs >you end up with fleas and this would be fitting to any alliance with the Japanese.

    Fortunately the vast majority of thinking Australians and their government don't agree with you.

  • 0

    OssanAmerica

    tian4670Dec. 31, 2012 - 04:37PM JST I am Australian. My government has already clarified the pact only effective if US is attached, not that US is on >offensive side.

    Put very simply, if your beloved China attacks any of countries they are presebntly "bullying" the U.S. will be involved. And if China wants to engage the United Stattes, many more nations will be inviolved.

    "The PLAN themselves said that their goal was to break the First Island Chain, which is why they are fixated on the Senkakus."

    First Island Chain is US led containment of China. Nobody wants to be 'contained'. So trying to 'breakout' should NOT >be viewed as aggressive or on expansion.

    Yes, in thje 1930-40s both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan didn't like the idea of being "contained". Nations that don't go on military and territorial expansion sprees and threaten their neighbors don't need any "containment". China much to the world's disappointment, is not in that category.

    I've been to US before, which is a great country that highly value 'Freedom'. US people does not want to lose >freedom. Neither Chinese wants to.

    Yes, in China in order to keep what freedom you have you must stay in line with the one-party authoritarian dictatorship. That includes not expressing opinions counter to those of the government, such as advocating democracy, or discussing the Tiananmen Square massacre. I suppose it includes going on the internet and flooding websites with Chinese propaganda as well.

  • -1

    Outta here

    Oh so Japan's history 70 years ago is more important than the way China is behaving today?

    Exactly right. How many nations has china invaded and subjugated in the past 70 years? How many 10s of millions has china murdered in these conquored nations....

    fortunately the vast majority of thinking Australians and their government don't agree with you.

    Funny you know that how. Maybe you should read some Aussie newspapers buddy. There is a great story about our former foreign ministersvspeak to the Chinese military academy warning of the increase in Japanese nationalism and the risk it poses to regional security!

  • -1

    OssanAmerica

    Outta hereDec. 31, 2012 - 10:39PM JST Oh so Japan's history 70 years ago is more important than the way China is behaving today? Exactly right. How many nations has china invaded and subjugated in the past 70 years? How many 10s of millions >has china murdered in these conquored nations....

    70 year old history isn't a threat to anyone. Furthermore Australia has put WWII behind it. Anyone who remotely thinks Japanese nationalism is a threat to region security is a China supporter, as they are the only ones still using WWII as a diplomatic tool and and anti-Japan rhetoric as a means of disguising their own military and territorial expansion.

    "fortunately the vast majority of thinking Australians and their government don't agree with you."

    Maybe YOU should read some newspapers period mate.

    Funny you know that how. Maybe you should read some Aussie newspapers buddy. There is a great story about our >former foreign ministersvspeak to the Chinese military academy warning of the increase in Japanese nationalism and >the risk it poses to regional security!

    "Australia and Japan enhance Defense Ties after Japan´s Nationalization of Disputed Diaoyu Islands."

    http://nsnbc.me/2012/12/23/australia-and-japan-enhance-defense-ties-after-japan%C2%B4s-nationalization-of-disputed-diaoyu-islands/

    "The Japanese Navy took a big step toward opening up in 2009 by holding a joint military drill with Australia — its first such exercise with a nation besides the United States. It has since joined a number of multinational naval drills in Southeast Asia, and in June held its first joint maneuver with India. "

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/27/world/asia/japan-expands-its-regional-military-role.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    "Japan and Australia have signed a new defence agreement to enhance cooperation on international peacekeeping missions"

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/australia-japan-sign-military-agreement-20100520-vopw.html

    "An Australian general will become a deputy commander of US Army Pacific, which oversees more than 60,000 American soldiers in the Asia-Pacific region."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/21/australian-general-us-army-pacific

  • 0

    caffeinebuzz

    Australia is also pursuing defence ties with China, including joint training. I'm a bit cynical of Japan's sudden want for this, and think that Australia is best to avoid getting dragged into an awkward position. If China wants to grow then there's nothing much we can do about it, and having Australia and other Asian countries in a diplomatic position between the two would be the best outcome for security and economic growth.

  • 0

    Outta here

    OssanAmerica,

    I said you should try read Australian newspapers and you manage to come back with 2 US papers. Sorry buddy but we are not part of the US believe it or not. But here is a recent I.e in last day.... Headline in Aussie media

    Japan attitude raises conflict fears, Kevin Rudd tells China

    So rather than snide comments you should read people's posts properly before being smart

  • 0

    caffeinebuzz

    I'm pretty much with Outta here on this one. While China has been a bit hawkish and overreacts;, there are many reasons for this without necessarily justifying their recent attitude. One thing we can do is hold a mirror to China and dissuade them from taking action that might seem too much like Japan circa WWII. Japan and China need to work around these island disputes and Australia should be working to help negotiate these- not throw our lot in with one side and risk so much in the process.

  • -4

    OssanAmerica

    You "Australians" have no idea what your own government is doing regarding security. What do you think our Marines are doing in your country?

  • 0

    OssanAmerica

    Outta hereJan. 01, 2013 - 11:19AM JST OssanAmerica, I said you should try read Australian newspapers and you manage to come back with 2 US papers. Sorry buddy but >we are not part of the US believe it or not. But here is a recent I.e in last day.... Headline in Aussie media

    "Japan attitude raises conflict fears, Kevin Rudd tells China"

    So rather than snide comments you should read people's posts properly before being smart

    Maybe YOU should read the very articles that you refer to "mate".:

    "On Friday, he took the unusual step for a high-profile Australian politician of raising concerns with the military elite of a nation identified in current and future Defence white papers as a possible threat, about the new government of one of Australia's closest allies."

    In case you don't understand this, "Possible threat" refers to China. "One of Australia's closest allies refers to Japan".

    And this is what he said about China's territorial expansion:

    "He told the Chinese officers that a number of Southeast Asian states had expressed concerns about China's assertion of its territorial claims in the South China Sea and that boundary questions had also emerged with Korea and Japan."

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/foreign-affairs/japan-attitude-raises-conflict-fears-kevin-rudd-tells-china/story-fn59nm2j-1226545485957

    Any other Australian news sources you want me to look at?

    • Moderator

      Readers, please stop bickering.

  • 0

    tian4670

    There is nothing new about Chinese assertion over territory. Its own claim has not changed in last 40 years, at least. It has not occupied any new territory. On the other hand, when I was there, it had settled many disputes through negotiation, won some and lost some. Chinese took winning and losing gracefully.

    On the other hand, the closest neighbor without sovereignty dispute with Japan is at least 1,000 miles away.

    It is absolute absurd to label China more expansionist than Japan.

    In South China sea, Chinese fishery department boats engage in dangerous ship bumping. They learned this trick from Japanese in Senkaku/Diaoyu dispute. Chinese government wants to take problem in its own hand, whilst smaller countries ask help from bigger players. Chinese is no more aggressive than Japanese in handling disputes.

  • 0

    SamuraiBlue

    tian4670

    There is nothing new about Chinese assertion over territory. Its own claim has not changed in last 40 years,

    Why did they change their position from what they took 30 years prior?

    Sorry but that is just land grabing.

    It is absolute absurd to label China more expansionist than Japan.

    Ask the Philpinos, Vietnamese, Indians, Tibetians,etc their oppinion conserning that subject.

  • -1

    tian4670

    SamuraiBlue

    Please open google map or apple map, and count how many neighbors China has.

    "Why did they change their position from what they took 30 years prior?"

    If you mean Senkaku/Diaoyu, then you are plain wrong. The then Chinese leader Deng Xiao Ping only admit dispute, and he was willing to leave the dispute to later generation. As Japanese is getting harder on the dispute, current generation leaders in China are no longer willing to 'leave the dispute to later generation'. Otherwise they will be labelled 'coward'.

    Just to borrow the words Japanese leader thrown to Korean: If you are so confidence about your sovereignty over the islands, why aren't you willing to refer the matter to international court of justice?

    Maybe, Japanese are not confident at all.

  • -1

    smithinjapan

    It's quite clear Japan wants to improve ties with the aforementioned countries because it knows that, with a self-proclaimed hawk like Abe, relations are not likely to improve regardless of his comments to make that so. So now Abe wants to strengthen ties with the US (sorry, Okinawans!) and with nations closer to home because it knows things are going to get worse, not better. These nations should not be helping Japan -- they should be pressuring Japan to give up the island disputes and the denial of history. In any case, Japan realizes it cannot continue making everyone around them mad and not have some legs to hide behind.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    Ossan: " Anyone who remotely thinks Japanese nationalism is a threat to region security is a China supporter..."

    You win worst argument of 2013 so far. No, people who think Japanese nationalism is a threat to regional security are using history as a lesson, not sweeping it under the carpet. Nationalism in ANY nation is a threat to its neighbours, doesn't matter if it's Japan, China, India, or anyone else. Now, 'patriotism' is another matter, but unfortunately Japan has decided to replace the latter with the former and try calling it the latter to win votes. What's the result? Despite promises to improve relations with China and South Korea Abe has said from the get-go he will not move on the island issues, and now we have him begging, as they always do, for back-up under the guise of 'improved relations' or 'security ties'.

    All this because of Ishihara.... quite unbelievable.

  • -1

    Outta here

    OssanAmerica,

    You "Australians" have no idea what your own government is doing regarding security. What do you think our Marines are doing in your country?

    Actually we do know what your couple of hundred marines are doing in our country they are training and training with our defence forces. Oh that and they need to find a new home after all the trouble they have caused in Japan....... Oops

    • Moderator

      Readers, please keep the discussion civil.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    Ossan: "You "Australians" have no idea what your own government is doing regarding security. What do you think our Marines are doing in your country?"

    I'm not an Aussie, but it's pretty clear the US is testing the waters for new homes after screwing up so much in Japan. It'll keep them in the region and even distance them a little if China or NK decides to strike Japan. Why do you think Japan is so desperately looking for alliances in the neighbourhood?

  • -2

    OssanAmerica

    Outta hereJan. 01, 2013 - 08:20PM JST "OssanAmerica, You "Australians" have no idea what your own government is doing regarding security. What do you think our Marines are doing in your country?"

    Actually we do know what your couple of hundred marines are doing in our country they are training and training with >our defence forces. Oh that and they need to find a new home after all the trouble they have caused in Japan....... >Oops

    Training for what purpose? Why are they in Australia instead of San Diego? Do you even know?

  • -1

    OssanAmerica

    smithinjapanJan. 01, 2013 - 08:11PM JST "Ossan: " Anyone who remotely thinks Japanese nationalism is a threat to region security is a China supporter..."

    You win worst argument of 2013 so far.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/10/us-philippines-southchinasea-idUSBRE8B908U20121210

    http://www.stripes.com/news/bilateral-distrust-between-us-china-at-an-all-time-high-1.201025

  • -1

    smithinjapan

    Ossan: "Training for what purpose?"

    And yet despite you posting the same links, what, three times now? as you did with the same arguments four or five times on other threads, you ask what the purpose is? The purpose is obviously concerns about China -- exactly as I said, and yet you call anyone who denies Japanese nationalism automatically "a China supporter". This isn't surprising, though, given your comments on South Korea and other nations when a person doesn't blindly support the right-wing in Japan.

    But hey, post a few more right-wing blogs for us. All your doing is proving my points.

  • -1

    SamuraiBlue

    although still skeptical about DPJ, Abe have done good so far identifying and prioritising issue both abroad and within. For example, Myanmar. Although many may wonder why Myanmar and Vietnam. These two nations are the two vital ports that links the EWEC which wil be a vital corridor bypassing the Strait of Malacca. Developing ties with India is also vital in securing safe passage within the Indian sea. So anything going to or from middle East, Africa and Europe may go through this corridor relieving congestion within the Strait of Malacca.

    To Japan relationship with Thailand, Vietnam, Myanmar, India and the Philippines is at top priority beyond mainland China at the moment.

    The reason for strategic ties with Australia is more of an US initiative in which Australia wanting cutting edge deisel sub technology but since the US did not have the technology pursuaded Japan to lift the self imposed embargo prohibiting export of military equipment so to provide it to the Australians.Japan having economic ties saw no issue to argue accepted the US request(demand) and sought stronger ties to pave the way for technological transfer.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    SamuraiBlue: "Japan having economic ties saw no issue to argue accepted the US request(demand) and sought stronger ties to pave the way for technological transfer."

    Ie. they are hurting very badly from the stall in exports with China and need to do anything and everything to desperately try and make up for it. More proof Japan has shot itself in the foot and doesn't have an open hospital bed to help itself.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    SamuraiBlue: "although still skeptical about DPJ, Abe have done good so far..."

    By the way, Abe is LDP, not DPJ. Hatoyama, Kan, and Noda were the three failed DPJ PMs in... what... 2.5 years? A good six years or more before Abe quit his job the first time.

  • -2

    OssanAmerica

    smithinjapanJan. 01, 2013 - 11:20PM JST

    Ossan: "Training for what purpose?"

    And yet despite you posting the same links, what, three times now?

    I am asking Outtahere the question. He still hasn't answered. How about you smith? Can you answer the question?

  • 0

    Sabrage

    India's security role is more important than Australia's in this context.

    India shares a border with China and has the potential to apply pressure by moving forces along that border.

    India's defence budget is not much less than Japan's.

    There is much knowledege of Soviet/Chinese equipment.

    In fact, the number of Chicom incursions into India make the Senkaku spat low key.

    If India joins the alliance, this would give India the impetus to build infrastructure around the border.

  • 0

    Outta here

    OssanAmerica,

    training for what purpose? Why are they in Australia instead of San Diego? Do you even know?

    Do you know? Obviously not by the questions you ask. As I said there are at most a couple of hundred marines here. They are here training because of the training areas they have access too. If you aren't aware they are bigger than some countries! They dwarf any facilities in Japan and provide massive areas to practice live fire of most weapon systems.

    Anyway l maintain that we should not sign a mutual defense treaty with Japan the obligates us to assist Japan in times of conflict as long as they continue to provoke other nations. What is in it for us? What does Japan have that can be useful to us? Would they assist us if say indonesia invaded us? Nope their anti war stance would prohibit it. So a very one sided agreement. By all means train with them but not treaties

  • -1

    tian4670

    training for what purpose? Why are they in Australia instead of San Diego? Do you even know?

    We have best water view here.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    Ossan: "I am asking Outtahere the question. He still hasn't answered. How about you smith? Can you answer the question?"

    And your question has been answered a few times already; you just choose not to see it.

    Outta here: "Anyway l maintain that we should not sign a mutual defense treaty with Japan the obligates us to assist Japan in times of conflict as long as they continue to provoke other nations."

    Agreed. And throw in their whaling program to boot and Australia should deny them flat out, but it'll ultimately fall on money, and if Japan offers enough Australia is likely to accept.

  • -1

    msmahumane@gmail.com

    It's incomprehensible how Japan chooses to spend so much time and political capital quarreling with its neighbors over small barren rocks instead of fighting for the bigger and richer Islands in the North. Why not try to wrestle back the Islands from the bear in the North?

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