Disputed islands covered by U.S.-Japan accord: Hagel

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  • -19

    Tony Ew

    Hagel: “The United States does not take a position on the ultimate sovereignty of the islands ....."

    "In the talks with Hagel, Onodera said he “explained Japan’s basic position that the islands are clearly an inherent part of the territory of Japan in light of historical facts and based upon international law,...."

    What a brazen face Japanese defense minister speaking in front of Sec of Defense Hagel without being questioned by the press. Are they asleep at the wheel or this is off limits to reporters?

    If the press is present, somebody should ask Hagel if the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands need to be 'defended' when the Japanese nationalists send 9 boats to instigate China to respond.

    The American citizens will not tolerate Japanese mischiefs to waste our precious taxpayer money. I'll contact my senator and congressman if this happen one more time!

  • 16

    oedo1

    @Tony

    somebody should ask Hagel if the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands need to be 'defended' when the Japanese nationalists send 9 boats

    Even if China, mistakenly, disputes sovereignty the world agrees the islands are administered by Japan and Japanese boats are legally in the waters. No defense needed there! One does have to wonder why China continues to provoke by sending ships and planes when they are clearly NOT legally able to enter the waters? A letter to your friends in Beijing may be more appropriate...

    How much did 40 fighter jet flights in one day cost China? Seems it isn't "precious taxpayer money" being wasted but China certainly wasted a fair share that day! lol

  • -16

    Tony Ew

    @oedo1

    You miss the point sir. The disputed islands is a 'black hole' to be left undisturbed. America is happy all these years, China tolerate it until the nationalists in Japan wakes up China into responding. The question in my comment is why didn't any journalist ask Mr Hagel to comment on Mr Odonera brazen statement that conflict with US position. This makes the US looks weak, unable to tame her nationalist friend.

    At the very least Mr Hagel should have laser beamed at Mr Odonera in the eyes and say 'Sorry, I don't buy your position'. Then Mr Odonera just pretend it is 'lost in translation' and they both laugh. I like to hear from some regular US posters here what they think!

    Never mind China spending millions, she is doing so to maintain her dignity whereas US don't have the luxury to waste any more tax dollars.

  • 12

    Tamarama

    The point is clearly that these are not a black hole at all, they are Japanese territory. Clearly, unequivocally. There is no confusion about this. If they were ever Chinese, that was finished in 1895 - nearly 120 years ago. When the Americans took control of them in 1945, they returned them back to Japan and continue to recognise Japan as the legal administrators of the islands - so much so, that they are clearly stating they will help Japan defend them if need be.

  • -14

    Tony Ew

    @TamaramaApr. 30, 2013 - 09:50AM JST

    The point is clearly that these are not a black hole at all, they are Japanese territory. Clearly, unequivocally. There is no confusion about this. If they were ever Chinese, that was finished in 1895 - nearly 120 years ago.

    Again, like many others, putting the cart before the horse. You don't pre settle what is not already settled. Just ask Yogi Berra! I have never say 'for sure' it is China's territory. I had posted before it is most likely Taiwan's due to the Kuomingtang claim and geographical closeness/continental shelf to Taiwan. The trouble is Taiwan cannot go to ICJ just to embarrass Japan as she have no standing, her case completely muted, never fully aired, so Japan is left with a 'custodial' ownership, not even that as Hagel said so clearly, ADMINISTER, why let his Japanese counterpart get away with it? Shameful, esp done on US soil!

  • 9

    fds

    China tolerate it until the nationalists in Japan wakes up China into responding

    more like the other way around, china has been the one inciting nationalist sentiments against the japan since the early '90s as they need an outside enemy to take the peoples' eyes off the corruption, pollution and lack of freedom at home and hold the country together, notwithstanding that japan has been one of the largest investors in the modernization of china. the japanese people are just getting fed up with giving money to a country that doesn't even acknowledge, much less appreciate their contribution and continually bad mouths them .

  • -13

    Tony Ew

    @fdsApr. 30, 2013 - 10:32AM JST

    China tolerate it until the nationalists in Japan wakes up China into responding

    more like the other way around, china has been the one inciting nationalist sentiments against the japan since the early '90s as they need an outside enemy to take the peoples' eyes off the corruption, pollution and lack of freedom at home and hold the country together, notwithstanding that japan has been one of the largest investors in the modernization of china. the japanese people are just getting fed up with giving money to a country that doesn't even acknowledge, much less appreciate their contribution and continually bad mouths them .

    How convenient! Pick and choose a segment of history to justify your cause and conveniently ignore the last couple of centuries history of Japan bullying China (thanks to Opium and incompetent Manchu not improving on Cannon warfare) that leads up to the current dispute? Wish you could have live that long and see the 'whole package', then you won't be so biased.

    Obama should pick up the phone and tell Abe not to send his defence minster to Washington DC and make remarks contrary to Secretary of Defence Hagel. Makes US looks bad.

  • 7

    Tamarama

    Tony Ew

    You don't pre settle what is not already settled.

    It might just be me, but I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

    I had posted before it is most likely Taiwan's due to the Kuomingtang claim and geographical closeness/continental shelf to Taiwan.

    Right. But this article isn't about Taiwan, it's about Chinese actions and recent Chinese aggression forcing the US to declare it's stand.

  • -2

    Athletes

    Tamarama

    I have seen your countless posts about the US obligation for protecting Japan security interest. Why not US is still not blocking any ship or plane from PRC or ROC?

    As you already knew they have been come and go since 1960s. I guess when the Chinese plane or ship has been interrupted or blocked, we may be no longer alive. Our grate grate grand kids have grown up at that time.

    China will never make the first move. It is full stop. They do not want to be seen them as aggressor. If US or Japan want to force them, they have to act earlier rather than sooner. Action speak louder than words.

  • 5

    viking68

    Tony Ew: The U.S. is not in a position to "tame her nationalistic friend". They are both independent and sovereign countries. They only need to have (and have) common interests. The U.S. has stated its position, and the U.S. does not need to correct a sovereign country's position. It is strange and difficult to understand how sovereign and democratic countries work.

    Therefore, the U.S. cannot impose its will on Japan or assert Japan's rights.

    Similarly, the U.S. isn't a mercenary police force that will start a war on behalf of Japan, as some Japanese have suggested.

    Even if you have voting rights in the U.S (which I doubt), U.S. Senators and Congressmen would never take a position in favor of China over Japan. That would be political suicide. In case you haven't been reading the news, the legislature has taken some harsh positions over China recently, e.g., the recommendation against buying Chinese IT equipment, the refusal to allow a Chinese company to own a wind farm in the U.S. that was near a military installation, increased concerns over state sponsored corporate espionage/hacking, etc.

  • 3

    oedo1

    @Tony

    How convenient! Pick and choose a segment of history to justify your cause and conveniently ignore the last couple of centuries history

    How convenient! Pick and choose a segment of history to justify your cause and conveniently ignore... etc etc How true Tony! Perhaps you should consider your own words a bit more!

    I agree with what Premier ZhouEnlai when he said in 1972: "I do not want to talk about the Senkaku Islands this time." "It became an issue because of the oil out there."

    This pretty much sums up a major part of China's expansionist goals, doesn't it.

  • 4

    OssanAmerica

    Tony EwApr. 30, 2013 - 08:53AM JST What a brazen face Japanese defense minister speaking in front of Sec of Defense Hagel without being questioned by >the press. Are they asleep at the wheel or this is off limits to reporters?

    Tony Ewww there is no conflict here. Japan states that it is their territory. The United States says we are not in a position to state whose territory it is, BUT we consider it under Japan's administration and we will defend it from a CHINESE INVASION. Is there anything else that isn't clear to you?

    If the press is present, somebody should ask Hagel if the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands need to be 'defended' when the >Japanese nationalists send 9 boats to instigate China to respond.

    The press had common sense ad recognized that since Japan administers the islands there is no point in the US defending it from Japanese nationals.

    The American citizens will not tolerate Japanese mischiefs to waste our precious taxpayer money. I'll contact my >senator and congressman if this happen one more time!

    Please do so that the NSA will have you on their pick up list when hostilities break out.

  • 4

    OssanAmerica

    Tony EwApr. 30, 2013 - 10:07AM JST I have never say 'for sure' it is China's territory. I had posted before it is most likely Taiwan's due to the Kuomingtang c>laim and geographical closeness/continental shelf to Taiwan.

    Tony Eww if you really believe the Senkakus should belong to Taiwan, why aren't you up in arms about all these Chinese maritime and air incursions? Why do you support China's claim?

  • 4

    OssanAmerica

    Tony EwApr. 30, 2013 - 10:46AM JST Obama should pick up the phone and tell Abe not to send his defence minster to Washington DC and make remarks >contrary to Secretary of Defence Hagel. Makes US looks bad.

    Except that nobody but you thinks that the JP Defense minster's statement CONTRADICTS the US Sec of Defense.

  • -11

    Tony Ew

    @viking68

    Contrary statements made in private is to be expected but if this is made in public in the presence of reporters, the reporters got to press deeper like asking 'Does Mr Onodera understand Secretary William Rogers testimony in the Senate that says in effect Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands is not definitely Japan's sovereign islands'?

    Political winds change very fast. Just because China have black eye now due to various growing pains, it does not mean Japan is not the next target of US ire. Remember the seventies Detroit anti Japanese causes an accidental killing of a Chinese mistaken as Japanese? Pretty soon the yen manipulation will make US fed up with Japan. Next stop Plaza Accord II

    Japan is a fake friend of US and it is better to have a known enemy China than a fake friend which is actually more dangerous!

    Americans are blind, too busy with NBA, baseball, but soon they will open their eyes big and see who the real enemy is. A democracy is no guarantee friendship is real. In fact Japan's US friendship is more like business than kindred friendship like between US and UK. I digress mod.

    Here is a 'biased' article to whet your appetite http://www.japanfocus.org/-Fang-Ming/3877

  • -12

    Tony Ew

    @oedo1Apr. 30, 2013 - 11:16AM JST

    @Tony

    How convenient! Pick and choose a segment of history to justify your cause and conveniently ignore the last couple of centuries history

    How convenient! Pick and choose a segment of history to justify your cause and conveniently ignore... etc etc How true Tony! Perhaps you should consider your own words a bit more!

    I agree with what Premier ZhouEnlai when he said in 1972: "I do not want to talk about the Senkaku Islands this time." "It became an issue because of the oil out there."

    his pretty much sums up a major part of China's expansionist goals, doesn't it.

    Another 'narrow vision'. Wish you have lived since the 1800's till now so you can figure out why China is doing what she is doing today. Better yet, if you had being born in China, you can see even better!

  • -13

    Tony Ew

    @TamaramaApr. 30, 2013 - 10:57AM JST

    Tony Ew

    You don't pre settle what is not already settled.

    I>t might just be me, but I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

    I had posted before it is most likely Taiwan's due to the Kuomingtang claim and geographical closeness/continental shelf to Taiwan.

    Right. But this article isn't about Taiwan, it's about Chinese actions and recent Chinese aggression forcing the US to declare it's stand.

    I object specifically to your 'etch in stone' comment that the disputed islands belong to Japan.

    There is nothing new here. US is just restating what is correct. There is no way out based on what Sec WIlliam Rogers testify in the Senate before the reversion of Okinawa and the Senkakus.

    What I am objecting is the statement make by Mr Onodera in the presence of Mr Hagel IF it is done in public. While Mr Onodera is free to disagree in public, the press or Mr Hagel should press on and ask 'Do you understand Simple English? US does not confer you, Japan sovereignty to those disputed islands' Do you get it? Let's see if he flip!

    What Japan do as an administrator of the islands is DRAGGING USA DELIBERATELY into a confrontation with China AND THIS IS WHAT US CITIZENS NEED TO BE AWARE OF.

    The uneasy status quo was fine pre Ishihara scheme to develop the islands for tourism. China just live with that and no US assets need be sent to harms way. Now it looks like it may get worse if POTUS miscalculate, thanks to Japan's nationalism trying to hoodwinking US citizens. We should pay more attention to Japan's schemes instead of baseball, NBA and American Idols.

    Taiwan is integral to the discussion. She will take on China if China try to land grab from Japan and not fork it over to her.

  • -11

    Tony Ew

    @OssanAmerica

    Does OssanAmerica jive with OsamaAmerica? (scary!) Stick to Tony Ew instead of trying to decorate my name to show your frustration okay?

    The American citizens will not tolerate Japanese mischiefs to waste our precious taxpayer money. I'll contact my >senator and congressman if this happen one more time!

    Please do so that the NSA will have you on their pick up list when hostilities break out.

    Pretty impressed! I have even seen POTUS, what's the big deal? And my friendly neighbor is an FBI agent okay? Oh, so you want US to be a Police State, like China, because I am outspoken? Ya, proud democracy can't take the heat.

    Hagel: “The United States does not take a position on the ultimate sovereignty of the islands ....."

    "In the talks with Hagel, Onodera said he “explained Japan’s basic position that the islands are clearly an inherent part of the territory of Japan in light of historical facts and based upon international law,...."

    Which part you don't understand? They are not in alignment. There is disagreement between US and Japan's position regarding sovereignty.

  • 5

    oedo1

    @Tony What you need to do here, Tony, is to take a bit wider view of the actual facts. For example U.S. Presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, and even President Nixon officially stated that Japan had sovereign right to the Senkaku Islands. At that point in time the Nixon Administration wanted to improve relations with China and they decided to be diplomatic by saying they didn't take a stance on the ultimate sovereignty to satisfy China, while return administration of the islands to Japan and protecting that status from any change in by inclusion in the Japan-US security treaty and specifically using the phrase "territories administered by Japan".

    Probably with a short closed-door discussion following to the effect that since Japan's sovereignty claim is so strong (as stated in a FBI report) and that under international law Japan's sovereignty is also clear the U.S. saying that they were neutral would be the same as specifically stating that the islands were Japanese territory. If everything wasn't tied to the world economy and politics it would be easy for the U.S. government to just go back to the stance Eisenhower voiced in 1957 and Japan should re-open the bonito processing business. Problem solved.

  • -12

    Tony Ew

    @OssanAmericaAPR. 30, 2013 - 11:52AM JST

    Tony EwApr. 30, 2013 - 10:07AM JST I have never say 'for sure' it is China's territory. I had posted before it is most likely Taiwan's due to the Kuomingtang c>laim and geographical closeness/continental shelf to Taiwan.

    Tony Eww if you really believe the Senkakus should belong to Taiwan, why aren't you up in arms about all these Chinese maritime and air incursions? Why do you support China's claim?

    Asking me this mischievous question is like me asking you would you be up in arms against Japan if you know Japan deliberately hoodwink US into a war with China per the nationalists boats provocation recently. This is the second setup recently, the first was the radar lock incident. You know Japanese history, Pearl Harbor comes to mind with stealthy acts so older generations are more leery of Japanese cunningness than you are.

    In the order of precedence, China have more rights to the disputed islands than Japan. Taiwan probably have more rights than China, but they will have to settle it themselves.

  • -10

    Tony Ew

    @oedo1APR. 30, 2013 - 01:11PM JST

    @Tony What you need to do here, Tony, is to take a bit wider view of the actual facts. For example U.S. Presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, and even President Nixon officially stated that Japan had sovereign right to the Senkaku Islands. At that point in time the Nixon Administration wanted to improve relations with China and they decided to be diplomatic by saying they didn't take a stance on the ultimate sovereignty to satisfy China, while return administration of the islands to Japan and protecting that status from any change in by inclusion in the Japan-US security treaty and specifically using the phrase "territories administered by Japan".

    Probably with a short closed-door discussion following to the effect that since Japan's sovereignty claim is so strong (as stated in a FBI report) and that under international law Japan's sovereignty is also clear the U.S. saying that they were neutral would be the same as specifically stating that the islands were Japanese territory. If everything wasn't tied to the world economy and politics it would be easy for the U.S. government to just go back to the stance Eisenhower voiced in 1957 and Japan should re-open the bonito processing business. Problem solved.

    I for one think the problem is unsolvable due to China's position that the disputed islands were stolen under duress. I understand the diplomatic dance as you noted above but really if not for the different political systems would we even have this discussion today? If PRC was democratic at that time, the islands would have gone back to China EASILY!

    US insert herself into this dispute primarily because of fear of the Red Menace from USSR and China AND the disputed islands are a very strategic buffer since US have bases all over Okinawa nearby. That location is so strategic to the military and is the ONLY reason in the US parsing the language to let Japan 'administer' while she don't think Japan should have it AT ALL IF China was a democratic system of governance back then. In other words, US is trying to have it both ways and it works real fine till Japanese nationalists Ishihara and other recent events riled up China into REACTING. Remember China and US were friends before PRC came to power in 1949.

  • 6

    Tamarama

    What Japan do as an administrator of the islands is DRAGGING USA DELIBERATELY into a confrontation with China AND THIS IS WHAT US CITIZENS NEED TO BE AWARE OF.

    You are completely off the mark. Japan aren't dragging anyone into a conflict. They already control and administer the islands. The government recently bought them from the Japanese family that owned them to PREVENT people like Ishihara doing anything stupid with a whacked out Nationalist agenda. If, at that point they wanted to 'give' them to Taiwan, they could. But China suddenly got all bent out of shape about it and have turned it into a major international incident. China have done that, not Japan. Ishihara does not represent Japan.

    You refuse to acknowledge that China has any responsibility in this at all, right?

  • -13

    Tony Ew

    @TamaramaApr. 30, 2013 - 01:33PM JST

    What Japan do as an administrator of the islands is DRAGGING USA DELIBERATELY into a confrontation with China AND THIS IS WHAT US CITIZENS NEED TO BE AWARE OF.

    You are completely off the mark. Japan aren't dragging anyone into a conflict. They already control and administer the islands. The government recently bought them from the Japanese family that owned them to PREVENT people like Ishihara doing anything stupid with a whacked out Nationalist agenda. If, at that point they wanted to 'give' them to Taiwan, they could. But China suddenly got all bent out of shape about it and have turned it into a major international incident. China have done that, not Japan. Ishihara does not represent Japan.

    You refuse to acknowledge that China has any responsibility in this at all, right?

    In the world of politics, national pride, dignity, there is no way esp in the internet age, lightning fast information for China to just sit around and do nothing and look weak in the face of events in Japan. True, Noda can try his best to explain his honest intentions to avoid more problems, BUT how do you solve the problem when the genie left the bottle?

    I am not saying China have no blame in this whole mess, but how do you solve a problem like this that is a matter of national dignity to the millions of citizens in the country? I don't see anybody able to do this if this happen to Japan when another country like Russia hurt her nationalist pride like Medevev visit to the Kuriles a while back.

    Japan got her chance to settle the problem but Noda keep saying 'nothing to negotiate', that's what leads to today's situation. It is Japan's internal politics that is the root cause of the crisis, remember China is just REACTING.

  • 4

    viking68

    Tony Ew: Japan is a fake friend of US and it is better to have a known enemy China than a fake friend which is actually more dangerous!

    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, eh? Sounds and is trite. The U.S. knows who is a friend and who isn't to be trusted, i.e., China is not to be trusted.

    I've read the word "dignity" associated with China's actions quite often. It never really struck me as something to worry about. Maybe it is because I live in a country where the issue doesn't come up on a national scale or where it is used to instigate the masses.

    If religion is the so called opium of the masses, then dignity is the opium of China.

    Still, it is good to read news of positive changes in China. This morning I read about stricter rules on Chinese military owning Cadillacs and license plates. Apparently, the Chinese military like luxury cars and they sell military license plates on the black market for the prestige and convenience at dodging toll booths that they confer. This kind of change and the closing of the corrupt transportation ministry are important steps to improving China's actual dignity.

  • 2

    viking68

    Japan is a fake friend of US and it is better to have a known enemy China than a fake friend which is actually more dangerous!

    Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, eh? That's Great. Sounds trite and as silly as cereal box philosophy.

  • 5

    oedo1

    @Tony Actually the problem is very solvable since only China thinks "the disputed islands were stolen under duress" and the rest of the world either doesn't agree or doesn't care! China needs to stop its provocative, expansionist behaviour!

    I do agree with you that if the PRC were democratic the situation probably wouldn't exist, BUT not because the islands would have went to China but because China would never be making such ridiculous claims.

    The problem exists now because of China's nationalist pride resulting from nationalist propaganda supplemented with the Chinese are relaying on the old "tell a lie a 1000 times and some will begin believe it" strategy.

    When push comes to shove though, the Japan-U.S. security treaty includes the Senkakus and the U.S. WILL respond if the Senkakus are invaded. This has been stated many times and should be clear. The CIA report that was released in 2007, shows the real U.S. position and states that "the Senkakus are commonly considered as part of the large Ryukyu Island chain”, and that “the Japanese claim to sovereignty over the Senkakus is strong, and the burden of proof of ownership would seem to fall on the Chinese.” Something they cannot do, I think...

  • 0

    Tiger_In_The_Hermitage

    Is the Nothern Territory covered by the accord?

  • 0

    Urqinchina

    Dignity and China together in one sentence- best example of an oxymoron in a long time. Just waiting for someone to argue against this assertion, then I can start giving examples. Bring it on !

  • 3

    OssanAmerica

    Tony EwApr. 30, 2013 - 01:12PM JST "@OssanAmericaAPR. 30, 2013 - 11:52AM JST Tony EwApr. 30, 2013 - 10:07AM JST I have never say 'for sure' it is China's territory. I had posted before it is most likely Taiwan's due to the Kuomingtang c>laim and geographical closeness/continental shelf to Taiwan. Tony Eww if you really believe the Senkakus should belong to Taiwan, why aren't you up in arms about all these Chinese maritime and air incursions? Why do you support China's claim?"

    Asking me this mischievous question is like me asking you would you be up in arms against Japan if you know Japan >deliberately hoodwink US into a war with China per the nationalists boats provocation recently.

    It's a "question" Tony Ewww, not "mischievous or anything else. How about answering it please?

    This is the second setup recently, the first was the radar lock incident. You know Japanese history, Pearl Harbor >comes to mind with stealthy acts so older generations are more leery of Japanese cunningness than you are.

    You say "setup"? Even though the Chinese government, after initially denying it, eventually ADMITTED that the Chinese PLAN ship put a radar lock on the Japanese ship, just as Japan had charged? How is this a "setup" Tony Eww?

    In the order of precedence, China have more rights to the disputed islands than Japan. Taiwan probably have more >rights than China, but they will have to settle it themselves.

    Now you are contradicting your previous position wherein you stated "I have never say 'for sure' it is China's territory".

  • 3

    Urqinchina

    Regardless of the arguments for and against of who the Senkaku Islands belong to, they are administered by Japan until this question is resolved through legal channels. This means China must abide by international law and stop harassing Japan by illegal border crossings. On a side note, my Chinese father in law used to me stories about how the PLA army use to harass the Soviets across the border in the era after both governments fell out with each other. It seems like nothing has changed in 50 years.

  • 3

    OssanAmerica

    Tony EwApr. 30, 2013 - 12:29PM JST @OssanAmerica Does OssanAmerica jive with OsamaAmerica? (scary!) Stick to Tony Ew instead of trying to decorate my name to >show your frustration okay?

    I apologize for my typing errors Tony Ewww, it's just that it's normal human behavior to write words they are not familiar with they way they sound.

    "The American citizens will not tolerate Japanese mischiefs to waste our precious taxpayer money. I'll contact my senator and congressman if this happen one more time!"

    Please do so that the NSA will have you on their pick up list when hostilities break out.

    Pretty impressed! I have even seen POTUS, what's the big deal? And my friendly neighbor is an FBI agent okay? Oh, >so you want US to be a Police State, like China, because I am outspoken? Ya, proud democracy can't take the heat.

    Aha, well then why don't you just give your buddy in the White House a call and tell him how China is "really America's friend". Maybe you can turn the US pivot to Asia around. I suggest you read up on US history with specific regard to enemy aliens.

    "Hagel: “The United States does not take a position on the ultimate sovereignty of the islands ....." "In the talks with Hagel, Onodera said he “explained Japan’s basic position that the islands are clearly an inherent part of the territory of Japan in light of historical facts and based upon international law,...."

    Which part you don't understand? They are not in alignment. There is disagreement between US and Japan's position >regarding sovereignty.

    No Tony Ewww, there is no "disagreement". Do you see them arguing about it? You are barking up the proverbial wrong tree, what is most significant for China is that Japan says they will defend the Senkakus and the United States says they will defend the Senkakus. I appreciate Tony Ewww that you'd like the US to support China on thje issue. But this isn't the Chinese police state where opinions are dictated by the government through state run media. You can't reverse reality by making absurd arguments.

  • 2

    toannds

    Tony Ew

    It seems that we got a unpopular China here. From Senkaku to nine-dash-line which extends well into neighbor's EEZ thousand miles away, to USSR, to India, Tibet ... ASEAN countries are having difficult to bring that bad kid to the table to settle a code of conduct at the sea. Of course, the kid does not want to because, as same as Senkaku, it is trying to change the status quo first. How hard you try, Tony, you can't defend that kid because everyone see its behaviors, and not believe its mouth!

  • 2

    toannds

    Tony Ew:

    Japan got her chance to settle the problem but Noda keep saying 'nothing to negotiate', that's what leads to today's situation. It is Japan's internal politics that is the root cause of the crisis, remember China is just REACTING.

    Did China said the whole South China Sea nine-dashed-line is its indisputable territory as well? When neighbors complains this ridiculous claim, it then REACTs by bringing more ships to Philippines and Malaysia coach line. Everyone, except Chinese from mainland, that I shown them the nine-dashed-line claim told me the same thing: What a shameless!

  • -11

    Tony Ew

    @toannds @Urqinchina

    Harassment is relative to the viewpoint of different parties. From China's perspective, the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands are stolen and she is now b a a c k! to claim it, one step at a time. From Japan's perspective it looks like harassment, so when the Japanese planes and ships chase off China's plane and Taiwanese ships, that can be viewed as harassment BY the Japanese against the Chinese/Taiwanese as seen FROM the Chinese/Taiwanese side.

    Just calm down. The cow tongue 9 dash line is China's NEGOTIATION STANCE. Why people don't get it is beyond me. Throw in Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands dispute as well. See, when Noda say 'there is nothing to negotiate', it is exactly the same as the other nations in SCS that refuses to negotiate. Blame it on Hillary for encouraging the fellow Asians to take brazen acts against China, trying to force a Group bargaining bloc against China.

    You do know China have a reasonable basis to claim all those disputed islands don't you? It is not like claiming Hawaii or Hokkaido where China have zero basis to make claims. It is the lack of willingness to admit China at least have some reason to claim those islands that is the reason for the entrenched positions of people against me. I love all the negative votes but they just cannot counter my arguments coherently!

    Now you have a situation where China keeps patrolling around the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands and Japan feel insulted. Ask China to back off and she will say 'nothing to negotiate' UNLESS Japan make some moves like maybe reviving the joint oil/gas exploration that had being agreed upon earlier. The ball is in Japan's court, not China.

    If one see the Master Servant scenario, one can understand my disgust at Mr Onodera representing Japan (Servant) and US (Master) giving Japan the administration duties to Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. The Giver (US) is the Master and Japan (Servant) don't understand the terms of the duties assigned to her. Shouldn't the Master US tell Japan off, the terms of the duties does NOT include giving her sovereignty? By being silent, US looks weak!

    If you run a corporation and you assign duties to somebody just to administer the asset, and he behave like he have Title to the asset assigned to him shouldn't you tell him he go overboard and may be fired for that brazen claim?

  • 5

    JaneM

    No matter how you try to twist, distort or whatever you do with the facts, Tony Ew, the truth is out there for everybody to see: China is the one country in Asia which has been trying to push its expansionist agenda saying that the territories it claims have at some point in the ancient past belonged to it while hiring some of its citizens to spread the nonsense propaganda which the PRC government feeds to its people.

    Fortunately, people who live out of PRC have access to a number of international news sources and do not have to be told what to think and how to interpret the facts.

    Tony Ew, propaganda works but only if you have limited or no access to uncensored news sources. However, netizens out of China do read news from non-Chinese media.

  • -10

    Tony Ew

    @Graham DeShazoApr. 30, 2013 - 10:32PM JST

    And btw, Tony's argumentation is as indecipherable as his grammar. With all the growth of the private sector, the Chinese Foreign ministry must really be scrounging for live bodies if Tony is the best they can do.

    See, you have nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion. Are you available to be my copywriter 50 cents per post? OR maybe you lack the intelligence to decipher what is written in the fast pace internet forum? You expect me to polish it up to be ready for POTUS, you expect me to be a speech writer to please your simple mind? You seems to be the only sore thumb here to not understand, so go figure who is kinda illiterate.

    When you write stuff like "In other words, "f-you, China." in this forum this shows your level of desperation. Go to Globaltimes.cn and meet me there. You will find a very rough side of me there if you are up to the challenge!

  • 4

    gelendestrasse

    I don't have any preconceived notions about China, I've been there. I used to think it was cool because women were able to hold higher positions in a company - unlike Japan. But now with all the pollution and nationalism and dodgy territorial claims I'm happy to not be there.

    China is pushing an agenda of claiming more territory than they would normally be allowed. The "nine-dashed-line" is one example, their aggressivness in the Phillipine Sea is an example as well. The Senkaku are an example of where China wasn't interested until there might be energy resources in the area. Now they belong to China?

    If it wasn't such a blatant grab one might be sympathetic to negotiations. But China is behaving in much the same way, and for the same reason - resources, that Japan was prior to WWII.

    China, of all countries, should know better. And the sad truth that they were pushed around for the first part of the last century (and earlier) and then had to suffer through the last half under communist rule is no excuse for making the same mistakes that Japan did under Tojo.

    Nationalistic aggression does not make up for government corruption.

  • 3

    nigelboy

    “The United States does not take a position on the ultimate sovereignty of the islands,

    But will keep referring to the said islands as "Senkaku".

    News is getting worse and worse for China for U.S. and Japan are formulating a new guideline which to include security enhancement towards East China Sea and the Pacific (i.e. contain China within the first island chain). We got ITLOS appointing arbitrators which China is rejecting for some unknown reasons that only their brainwashed citizens can comprehend, and we got Japan and Vietnam currently working on Maritime security.

    Now with these 40+ incursions leaked to the Japanese media, it's basically giving Abe a free will to increase the budget (deployment and construction within the islands) as well as revising the constitution.

    It use to be the Japan use to have lawmakers who were very simpathetic towards China but thanks to the world wide coverage of their uncivlized population during the riots, that's no longer the case.

  • -5

    toshiko

    Sounds like Mr. Onodera was tutoring Mr. Hagel who is not familiar with Asia or not even middle-east.

  • 1

    bfg4987

    yen devaluation by stealth

    How is publicly declaring to the entire world that "We are going to double the money supply and decrease the value of the yen" stealthy?

  • 2

    nigelboy

    How is publicly declaring to the entire world that "We are going to double the money supply and decrease the value of the yen" stealthy?

    Let alone the Yen rate is still far from Pre Lehman shock and some economists were still calling the exchange rate "Endaka" at that time.

    Back in the days where Japan still catered towards China, CCP would summon China symathizers like Ozawa who would gather his several dozen minions to visit PRC leaders like Hu and Wen. Since the days of Ozawa is gone (all his minions losing in the past election), the only choice they have now is to summon Loopy and Murayama who have absolutely NO influence in Japanese politics.

  • 5

    nigelboy

    Love my comment about China negotiation stance don't you? I am persuadable, so far I have not hear any counter arguments.

    Let me get this straight. Just because there isn't a counter argument on the above post, you magically convince yourself that you have made a far superior logical argument that nobody can counter?

    Like most of your posts, what you are essentially doing is repeating the same ol argument with the same delusional premise that China is the sane one while the rest of world are insane.

    But let's review for comical sake.

    "What China is doing is BEING FORCED to patrol the disputed islands due to Ishihara scheme to develop the islands for tourism. "

    You do recall the owner sold to the National government instead of Ishihara led Tokyo Metropolitan government correct? Now why did that DPJ led government do that? To Prevent Ishihara from developing the islands.(*)

    Now the smart thing for China would of been to applaud DPJ's efforts who had no interest in doing anything to the islands, but NOOOOOO. The clever minds at Beijing decides to increase the incursions bringing U.S. to reaffirm their position once again along with setting up a NEW guideline that now address security in East China Sea region. Bear in mind that this is still under DPJ led government.

    By November of last year, the brain trust at PRC should of figured that DPJ's days were numbered and that LDP with their party's manifest which clearly stated their intention to increase efforts to protect their own territory, would most certain gain power and yet for some unknown reason, the PRC incursions continue. Now with the new Abe cabinet in place, and China's continued incursion, his proposal to DEVELOP on the islands are no longer a taboo subject, but is welcomed and accepted by the Japanese public.

    Now let's go back to your original statement.

    "No sir, here is a way to look at it. China is not lost. What China is doing is BEING FORCED to patrol the disputed islands due to Ishihara scheme to develop the islands for tourism."

    Go back to (*).

  • -8

    Tony Ew

    @nigelboy

    I hear ya. Just blame it on Japan's internal politics that produce this outcome. There is NO Chinese upheaval that makes it necessary for the PRC to create a diversion. Can you name any? When Noda was foolishly or from political consideration says 'Nothing to negotiate' he is setting the stage for Chinese maritime patrolling of the disputed islands. Blame who? The root cause of all the problem is Japan's own internal politics. I just saw a lengthy post about Japan's history and you can see how aggressive Japan is and this is how the disputed islands status is still in limbo today. Hell, if Japan was not an aggressive nation, Okinawa and the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands are a bunch of pristine paradise islands for all to visit and enjoy!

    http://www.economist.com/news/christmas/21568696-behind-row-over-bunch-pacific-rocks-lies-sad-magical-history-okinawa-narrative

    You can be sure American tax dollars are not going to be wasted to defend Japan's adventurism. US don't even want to get involved with Middle East so far, what makes you think US will throw her weight militarily, boots on the ground on Japan's behalf if it can be shown Japan is the instigator, as I had exposed twice already?

    Hagel just make the routine pronouncement, that's it! If anybody dare to ask him: 'Will US defend Japan if it can be proven Japan is the initiator of aggression, given Japanese history, will US blindly defend Japan'? I am sure he will walk away pretending he did not hear anything!

  • 5

    Hide Suzuki

    @Tony Ew

    "Japan is a nation in desperation. The yen manipulation is the last card Abe can play"

    LOLOLOLOL, in that case China is the most desperate country in the history of the entire world.

    I have never seen anyone who defends China as much as you do. And people like you who gets mad over nothing are part of the reason why the rest of the world don't have good images toward your home country.

  • 2

    sfjp330

    Tony Ew May. 01, 2013 - 05:51AM JST If anybody dare to ask him: 'Will US defend Japan if it can be proven Japan is the initiator of aggression, given Japanese history, will US blindly defend Japan'? I am sure he will walk away pretending he did not hear anything!

    If we're going to be pointing fingers of blame to Japan the savageness of the century and you know you want to raw numbers are probably not enough. There have been plenty of episodes of concentrated brutality that don't show up on the list simply because the affected population is so small. Meanwhile, a major reason that Russia and your country China stand so prominently at the top of the list is that they have so many potential victims to begin with.

  • -11

    Tony Ew

    @Hide Suzuki

    The yen issue is off topic, but you do know Japan is going nowhere for the last 20 years don't you? Thus the backdoor yen devaluation trick to boost the economy at other country expense, like Korea, Taiwan etc, all Japan's competitors.

    @sfjp330

    ...and your country China

    YOUR country China again? Trying to SNEAK one past me again?

    You are not worth responding except to make a note of your incessant attempt to link me to China. Come back when you show a little class.

    AND take a shot at my position about Senkaku/Diaoyu Island. I respond ONLY to intelligent argument.

  • 3

    nigelboy

    I hear ya. Just blame it on Japan's internal politics that produce this outcome.

    Not really. Beijing completely miscalculated the fact that nobody sympathizes with their position. Furthermore, they anticipated that some prominent Chinese sympathizer lawmakers would put pressure on Abe's cabinet except for the inconvenient fact that they lost in the election ( Sengoku, Tanaka, Kato)

  • 2

    Urqinchina

    @hide Suzuki I completely agree with you.I have met Chinese within China, in Japan, and in the Uk who have had fantastic educations But are completely mesmerised by their nationalistic patriotism. Actually it reminds me of Japanese during the 1980 's and Americans before.

  • -11

    Tony Ew

    @sfjp330

    There you go!

    From your lips to my ears! "But it no longer reflects reality, or a realistic way forward for Japan. The U.S. and China have basically become strategic partners, and this contact, Article 5 is a dead letter. The U.S. will do the necessary to avoid conflict with China and they will pressure Japan to negotiate."

    DIDN'T I TELL EVERYBODY? POTUS may have earned the Nobel Peace Prize after all. US and China is in cahoot to 'cage' Japan! Secretary Hagel is just playing nice to his guest Mr Onodera. China understood the 'Rules of Engagement' whereas Japan seems too cowboyish.

    Got it from your well reason thoughts here: http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/chinese-military-planes-flew-near-disputed-isles-40-times-in-one-day

  • 4

    oedo1

    @Tony You justify China's illegal incursions and obvious expansionist goals by twisting facts and with half- truths while ignoring points that detract from your appointed, or hired, task. In regard to China's RECENT interest in the Senkakus you seemed to overlook things like what Premier Zhou Enlai (remember him) said in 1972. I'll quote for you, "It became an issue because of the oil out there." by the way, "it" referres to the Senkakus. Fast forward to today and China's military plans making illegal incurrisons into territory of another country. There are other expansionist reasons as well, but one point that you failed to respond to is that your Premier even admitted China's interest was recent and because they wanted something that someone else owned. Did the world miss something here?

  • 4

    oedo1

    @Tony A perfect example to substantiate my twisted, half-truth observation, Tony.

    Remember the 9 dash line? Was this drawn up after the oil or before the oil discovery?

    Tony, there have been various Chinese domestic versions around for a while BUT the Chinese actually first submitted a map with the lines to the UN in 2009. It was immediately protested by the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia. Why not Japan? Because it covers the South China Sea area and has nothing to do with the Senkakus, the oil there, or Zhou Enlai's admission. But I'm sure you know that...

  • 2

    viking68

    Tony Ew: Chinese nationalism shows ONLY when insulted. Japanese nationalism on the other hand is the AGGRESSIVE kind, initiating ACTIONS that are harmful to others.

    Both countries have aggressive right wing elements. Japan's right wing is a minority and does not control the country. Japan also is a country with free elections, and even though there are plenty of black vans spouting right wing BS, not enough people by into their nuttiness to allow Japan to become a like the early 1900's Japan. China on the hand is trying desperately to continue expanding its territory at the expense of other countries and to minimize the spread of internal uprisings by citing the manufacturing affronts to their so called national dignity.

    China is led by an elite few who are only intent on preserving their power and eliminating any challenge to that power. The latest episodes by the Chinese government with Senkaku are only more actions to preserve their power by distracting the populace from the total power of the government over its citizens.

    In the news from China over the last year or two, I haven't seen Chinese snatching people out of Japanese cars and assaulting them, people attacked on the streets, a popular fireworks labelled nuclear bomb over Tokyo being sold openly, destroying Japanese products owned by both Japanese and Chinese citizens, a military war vessel using targeting radar on police vessels, and denying any semblance of truth to continue the instigation of the masses.

    Individually, they may be temporary acts, but there is a consistent trend that has been orchestrated by the central Chinese government to control the passions of common Chinese. Therefore, they cannot be called temporary acts, unless you can call turning off the water at the sink a temporary stoppage of water service.

    China does not have the altruistic government you portray. The Chinese government is only looking out for those in power within Chinese government. Everything else and everyone else is secondary and expendable.

  • 2

    JBird

    >Disputed islands covered by U.S.-Japan accord: Hagel

    This has been US policy since the 70s and has been stated more times than one can count. Hardly news and even China should catch on soon!

  • -5

    Redcliff

    @ oedo1

    For your information the 9 dash line has nothing to do with whether oil been found in the disputed island(Diaoyu Islands/Senkaku). It was revised from the 11 dashed line to 9 dashed lines after the time when China and Vietnam resolved its differences involving certain disputed territories.

  • -5

    Redcliff

    @ sfjp330

    "...that Russia and your country China stand so prominently at the top of the list is that they have so many potential victims to begin with."

    First of all this statement is a subjective statement with no factual backing secondly you defeat your view point by using the word "potentisal vctims" which hardly could justify your claim.

  • -3

    Redcliff

    @ viking 68

    "both countries have aggression right wing elements. Japan right wing is minority and does not control the country...."

    You are not kidding yourself. Just have a good look at Abe and his cronies and also his actions and mandates. Japan aggressive right wing elements may be of minority but they surely are powerful in politics.

  • 4

    oedo1

    @Redcliff

    If you're speed reading I suggest you slow down.

  • 1

    nigelboy

    You are not kidding yourself. Just have a good look at Abe and his cronies and also his actions and mandates. Japan aggressive right wing elements may be of minority but they surely are powerful in politics.

    First of all this statement is a subjective statement with no factual backing.

    Copy/Paste. Classic pot calling the kettle black

  • -1

    sfjp330

    If Japan goverment states "there is no dispute", why did Japan PM Fukuda in in 1978 say "the dispute shall be postponed"? There was agreement between China and Japan for Senkaku/Diaoyu islands dispute to posponed, and for future generation to resolve. This was first Japanese representative to admit that there was dispute over the islands. What it amount to is that any agreement with Japan is worthless. Who is lying about dispute when Japan denies it.

  • 2

    oedo1

    @sfjp
    Actually Deng Xiaoping and Takeo Fukuda issued a joint statement on the occasion of the Sino-Japan Peace Treaty in 1978 saying they wanted to maintain the status quo concerning the island issue. Neither side expressed their was or was not a dispute or their sides stance. For Japan the status quo was that Japan had both sovereign and administrative rights, for China it was wanting Japan to accept a dispute.

    That is quite different than your twisted version of the issue, me thinks.

  • -2

    sfjp330

    oedo1May. 02, 2013 - 06:58AM JST That is quite different than your twisted version of the issue, me thinks.

    You must be reading too much Japanese textbooks. In 1978, Japan and China were able to put the Senkaku/Diaoyu issue aside and proceed with round two of negotiations. As in 1972, China demonstrated that, while the island controversy was important, it was subsidiary to China’s larger political goals with Japan. In October 1978, two months following the signing of the treaty of Peace and friendship between China and Japan, Deng Xiaoping reportedly declared that it would not matter “if this question (regarding sovereignty of the senkaku/diaoyu Islands] is shelved for sometime, say, ten years, our generation is not wise enough to find common language on this question, our next generation will certainly be wiser." However, Japan has recently claimed that there was no formal agreement to “shelve” or put the issue aside in 1978 and that in fact no controversy exists. How can you trust Japan?

  • 2

    nigelboy

    Sfjp330

    I suggest you read oedo1's post more carefully.

  • 2

    toannds

    Tony Ew:

    Just calm down. The cow tongue 9 dash line is China's NEGOTIATION STANCE. Why people don't get it is beyond me.

    I observe that Chinese people truly believe in the 9 dash line but when come to explanation they just move away when being asked why the greedy line licks other neighbors coast lines? You are the exception and most brave man :)

    Back to your "China's stance": I think only you and Chinese people can comprehend that negotiation stance :) May be they have a different brain from the rest of the world because: The rest of the world see that cow tongue as illogical, ridiculous, shameless and bullying. Is it shameless, Tony? Tell me honestly ? ;-) Let's play kid game: One of your kid plays China, the other play Philippines and the rest. When the first kid makes such claim would you, as a father, support him?

    Blame it on Hillary for encouraging the fellow Asians to take brazen acts against China, trying to force a Group >bargaining bloc against China.

    We defend our houses from any intruding/robbing by bad hooligans. Anyone help is welcome! And Hillary came on time.

  • 0

    toannds

    Tony Ew:

    A big bad guy come to your neighborhood and started looting. You defends your houses because its your interest and you start doing it FIRST and RIGHT AWAY before anyone come to help. You don't wait until someone asked you to do so! You gang up together with your neighbors to fight against the gangster because it's the right thing to do when you are weaker! If an outsider offers help, he is definitely welcomed. It's logical and not because of the outsider you defend your house! Is that obvious to you, Tony?

    Your blame on Hillary is so ridiculous! Do you expect that no one should group together to defend their interest??? It's China behaviors make neighbors stand against it FIRST. China should blame it self if US took advantage of that LATER. Without US, China even becomes more assertive and arrogant in its greedy claims!

  • 0

    sfjp330

    oedo1 May. 02, 2013 - 06:58AM JST For Japan the status quo was that Japan had both sovereign and administrative rights, for China it was wanting Japan to accept a dispute. nigelboyMay. 02, 2013 - 09:20AM JST Sfjp330 I suggest you read oedo1's post more carefully.

    Nigeboy, I read it, where does it say anything about soverignty of Senkaku/Daioyu Islands? You didn't know that Okinawa agreement is only for administrative rights, and nothing more.

  • 0

    nigelboy

    Nigeboy, I read it, where does it say anything about soverignty of Senkaku/Daioyu Islands? You didn't know that Okinawa agreement is only for administrative rights, and nothing more.

    You didn't read it. Oedo was interpreting the "status quo" in which Fukuda and Deng agreed to. You responded by repeating the same lines over and over again. As to the soverignty issue and the interpretation of the Okinawa agreement, this has been discussed ad nauseum for the agreement clearly states,

    ....willing to assume **full responsibility and authority for the exercise of all powers of administration, legislation and jurisdiction **over the territory and inhabitants of the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands;

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