Japan must recognise Kuril islands for peace deal: Lavrov

No more olive branches (that's what Abe would've wanted anyway).

I guess its another 70 years before we see a peace agreement. Looks like Japan is going to wait until Russia collapses on itself before snagging a deal like they tried to do the last time.

Like anyone should be surprised?! Did anyone in their right mind ever think Putin would give back territory it controls?!

Check and mate, Japan. Because I really don't see any move left for you. Well, except meaningless protests.

See what would have happened if Russia actually invaded Hokkaido and northern Japan? Like it or not, Hiroshima and Nagasaki helped to prevent a much bigger headache, a totally divided Japan.

I understand that throughout history and up to the current day international relations between and among nations have been based largely on Realpolitik or as some say a pagan ethos, a zero sum game. Given an increasing population worldwide and declining resources I would like to think there could be negotiated settlements in disputes like this where one side could continue to claim ownership (whatever that means) while allowing the other access and rights to resources, if only on a limited basis.

For example, China has ‘finland-ized’ large portions of the Indian and Pacific Ocean sphere and in many regards has established itself as the naval and commercial power there. I think it would be impossible to take, or take back as some claim, anything from there without military action. Perhaps by negotiating with China nations in the sphere could come away with something, however small, without putting lives at risk. Old school nationalistic hubris will need to be set aside, but to me it beats spending more money on a military and going to war.

@Yubaru"what would have happened if Russia actually invaded Hokkaido and northern Japan?

Why should Russia invade Hokkaido and northern Japan?

"Hiroshima and Nagasaki helped to prevent a much bigger headache".

You praise those brutal bombings, trying to support a stupid American- created myth about possible invasion of Soviets into Japan. You'd better think about removing US occupants from Japan mainland and Okinawa.

Russia and China are both pushing ahead with illegal occupation and conquer tactics as the realm of Obama is coming to an end and both are afraid on what awaits them with a new Trump as leader. The both know and understand full well the Don understands the game very well and knows how to play the real estate game of Monopoly in real world. Japan should just push ahead and build on these islands that are part of and have been part of Japan due to both the Ryukyu and Ainu peoples being a part of Japan post WWII and are in reality the true owners of these areas of lands in dispute.

@bjohnson

Don understands the game very well and knows how to play the real estate game of Monopoly in real world

He understands using his expensive lawyers and buying and bullying local politicians and boards. I have zero sense he understands the world that people like Putin and Xi live in.

@bjohnson23"both are afraid on what awaits them with a new Trump as a leader".

Lol. Some American guys live in a world of illusions, seriously believing their President a sort of Magician.

Tokyo and Moscow discussed the issue in January 2014, but the process was put on ice after Moscow annexed the Crimean peninsula from Ukraine in March that year.

There's your response. Russia doesn't want any deal. They just want to take whatever they 'think' is theirs.

Japan couldn't defend the islands north of Hokkaido after the last war and they were taken by Russia-that is called karma folks! No good Japan crying about it now is there?

Japan needs to be reminded of its past history since its politicians are a forgetful lot .......

This is just more evidence of Russian duplicitous procrastination. As soon as Japan recognises the islands, moscow will say that Japan has recognised them as Russia territory and will not return them to Japan

Time for Japan to send in troops and take the Islands back.

Does anyone need any more evidence that Putin cares nothing about the Russian people and bases his decisions merely on some old, faded memory of a great Soviet Union. Russia’s economy is in a free fall, inflation is a growing problem, corruption is an everyday fact of life yet Putin refuses to give back four small islands that would result in a significant improvement in relations with Japan. Japan imports 80% of its oil from the middle east and Russia has oil it can’t sell - a resolution of the northern islands issue would result in Japan establishing a significant increase in investment and joint economic ventures in Russia – helping the economy and raising the standard of living.

However, with this announcement, Japan will freeze any investment in Russia – and rightly so. But that won’t cause Putin to lose any money – he’s already raided the Treasury for his retirement fund. But it will make life harder for the average Russian family.

If Japan is supposed to "recognize the realities" of post WWII then what about Russia's ally China?

Why hasn't Abe already ordered the SDF to drive out the Russian invaders? Just curious that the US hasn't backed Japan up in this. If China takes the Senkakus then it'll be the same thing all over.

Well said, Lavrov. It is time to stop pandering to Japanese nationalists.

Ha-ha! What a slap in the face by the russians.

calling on Tokyo to “recognise” post-WWII “historic realities.”

As if this Kishida guy thought he could get anywhere through diplomacy. Nice try. Welcome to reality check.

Two of the northern-most islands should go to Russia and the other two to Japan. Compromise.

so my sleepless Sundays continue with all the hullabaloo at the Russian embassy. I think Russia does realpolitik really well.

If the islands are not on the table then why should a peace treaty be negotiated?

Russian logic defies diplomacy.

Did anyone in their right mind ever think Putin would give back territory it controls?!

I think you could remove Putin's name and replace it any other leaders name, Abe for example. With all the controversy over the Senkaku's, dose anyone think Russia would just rollover on this issue?

Does anyone need any more evidence that Putin cares nothing about the Russian people and bases his decisions merely on some old, faded memory of a great Soviet Union. Russia’s economy is in a free fall, inflation is a growing problem, corruption is an everyday fact of life yet Putin refuses to give back four small islands that would result in a significant improvement in relations with Japan.

Thanks for the laugh this morning.

@yamashiSEP. 22, 2015 - 07:09AM JST @Yubaru"what would have happened if Russia actually invaded Hokkaido and northern Japan? Why should Russia invade Hokkaido and northern Japan? "Hiroshima and Nagasaki helped to prevent a much bigger headache". You praise those brutal bombings, trying to support a stupid American- created myth about possible invasion of Soviets into Japan. You'd better think about removing US occupants from Japan mainland and Okinawa.

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actually A bombs encouraged Soviet to promise J Communist Party Chair Sanzo Nosaka to work to make J as a communism country. So, Gen Msc released Kishi from Sugamo and told him to create anti red parey. We used to call JCP Akahata.

So it will be no peace treaty. Russia has absolutely nothing to offer to Japan. We can buy the gas and oil from the middle east and so what if a few fishermen lose their catch rights. It does push Japan into the arms of the Americans. I really think Japan should stop talking to the Russians as well. What is the point? Talking with the Russians is a waste of time, I say yes to embargo Russia!

@YuriOtaniSEP. 22, 2015 - 10:29AM JST

So it will be no peace treaty. Russia has absolutely nothing to offer to Japan. We can buy the gas and oil from the middle east and so what if a few fishermen lose their catch rights. It does push Japan into the arms of the Americans. I really think Japan should stop talking to the Russians as well. What is the point? Talking with the Russians is a waste of time, I say yes to embargo Russia!

First, the facts of the matter is that after 1952, even if those islands aren't Russian, they aren't Japanese. Japanese attempts, even encouraged by America, to narrow the area given up in the San Francisco Treaty can be seen as a treaty violation.

Second, the situation is closer to Japan has little to offer Russia now. Both countries actually do have cards they can offer each other, but Japan chose to ignore its own needs and be "a team player". Even ONE big Western country willing to flaunt the American led embargo would be a boon for Russia and thus will be assigned disproportionate value. Meanwhile, Japan needs Russia to not sell military tech to China (they've been making improvements, but they still don't have everything and military equipment is a weak link game). The gas and oil is also welcome.

Just like Russia has the rights to keep those islands, so does Israel have the right to keep what they won also. Land has been exchanging hands for thousands of years. It is the nature of man to war, so just accept it and live with it.

The Japanese government has been given this 'take it or leave it' so many times. There'll come a time when Russia won't even bother speaking to you or do any trade with you.

@YuriOtani "So it will be no peace treaty"

Japan should be a sovereign country instead of shadow of the USA. It is not so difficult to sign peace treaty and be a good neighbour of Russia.

"We can buy the oil and gas from the middle east"

On high price.

We can buy the gas and oil from the middle east

At very high prices.

and so what if a few fishermen lose their catch rights.

I mean, sure, who cares about their livelihood right? No big deal.

It does push Japan into the arms of the Americans.

Has already been for 70 years and if the next president will allow the Keystone pipeline to go through, Japan could buy cheaper oil from us or would you rather pay more buying it from the ME?

Japan will never get the islands back from Russia unless they "change the status quo by force". But that is precisely what Japan keeps warning China not to do, so things remain as they are.

Check and mate, Japan. Because I really don't see any move left for you. Well, except meaningless protests.

If the bird doesn't sing, wait until it sings.

鳴かぬなら鳴くまで待とう時鳥

Really Russia needs more land, should give back.

The fact is nothing will happen until a World War II peace treaty is established and signed with a compromise on Japan's part because there is an immense strategic value the Kuril Islands hold. The islands are resource rich and have an abundance of rare earth metals. Oil and gas projects have been successful with possibly hydrocarbon deposits. The islands has virgin forests with volcanoes, waterfalls and holds immense potential for tourism. Military activity has continued to grow with development of defense installations including rapid development of many military facilities. In other words these islands are an integral part of Russia's Asia Pacific defense and economic strategy.

It should have been obvious to Japan for decades that Russia wasn't going to return these isles.

And yes Yubaru is correct Japan is extremely LUCKY they didn't go for that smaller island just below spelt with a HOKKAIDO!

I can see Japan being able to offer anything that would change Russia's mind, this has been pretty obvious for a long long time now

Kazuaki Shimazaki so tell me what Russia has that Japan needs? The price of oil has dropped through the floor. It would cost money to make the facilities so Russia can export the oil. Russia can sell their oil and gas at discount to China. Let them make the investment for the export facilities. I do think that once these facilities are built Russia will steal Japans investment like they have done before. So there will be no peace treaty with Russia. I get tired of these stories.

Yep ... Japanese hypocrisy at its best:

Everybody knows Japan has quasi or unconvincing arguments for claiming Diaoyu (Senkaku), Takeshima and the Kuril islands, especially when seen from the perspective of the Postdam declaration and other tools of surrender (incl. the promise to return stolen islands to China).

Japan is the bad boy who denies his bad behavior but yet has the shameless audacity to bad-mouth China and Korea and even Russia whom were/had been bullied and abused by Japan.

Japan living in its own universe that's crunching into mini black holes mostly based on its denial of the truth and realities.

Perhaps by negotiating with China nations in the sphere could come away with something, however small, without putting lives at risk.

Wow. Where to begin...

Negotiating for "something, however small" in order to avoid later violence if you don't capitulate, however slightly? Again, wow. I can think of fewer things more noisome or offensive than capitulating to a bully. What you call "negotiation" has historically been referred to as "appeasement," and we all know how well that particularly approach turned out for Europe in the 1930s.

Old school nationalistic hubris will need to be set aside, but to me it beats spending more money on a military and going to war.

Territorial aggression and nationalistic hubris are not, unfortunately, archaic "old school" ways of thinking gone the way of the dinosaurs. They are still very real and very dangerous facets of the modern human condition, a truth you don't have to look any further to see than ISIS' rampage across the Middle-East, China's unilateral expansion of man-made military airfileds across the East China Sea, or Russia's flagrant theft of Crimea.

When the entirety of humanity evolves to a point that it no longer feels the need to bolster national resources and/or pride via brute force, then yes, your desire to see a non-military solution to conflict like this with the Northern Isles might have some merit. But until humanity reaches that point of enlightenment -- and as a whole, we most certainly haven't -- constant military vigilance in the face of aggressive states that use threats of violence to bolster illegal territoritial claims remains by far the most effective defense we have against tyranny in the here and now. Put another way, until bullies go the way of the dinosaur, the best defense against one is a very real threat that you or an ally will punch one back just as hard or harder.

Sure, that may not seem very elegant and it doesn't sound particularly enlightened, but that doesn't make the approach any less true or effective.

Yes, diplomacy is crucial. Yes, giving dialogue a chance to work is preferable. Talking things out should always be the first course of action. But to go into any negotiations with the sole hope or expecation of that the best outcome you can hope for is not getting abused later on? My god. The profound naivety it requires to think this kind of approach would ever produce long term solutions that don't result in widespread tyranny is astounding.

Russia can safely maintain the position it does for two reasons: One, threat of violence is always implied, now even moreso since Crimea, and two, it knows Japan is averse to using violence in response. Therefore, Russia will get exactly what it wants, regardless of whether or not their position is right or legal. This is not the stuff of improved international security and mutual prosperity .

Japan could've had 2 of the islands back - and concluded a peace deal - if they'd accepted reality earlier. All this wailing and "all or nothing" stance has left them with exactly that - nothing

Abe trying to reenact post war order. Wrong ! Gone is gone!

re: yamashi @bjohnson23"both are afraid on what awaits them with a new Trump as a leader". Lol. Some American guys live in a world of illusions, seriously believing their President a sort of Magician.

Yamashi since your comments came under assumptions and weak at that I will give it to you that at least it got my attention. I say assumption because you read my ID as being American but easily can be another nationality. You are assuming that I among the American guys living in a world of illusion when it is clearly evident that it is you in deep denial of what is evidently coming to pass. Trump by no means is a Magician, but is extremely savy, crooked or not he does know how Monopoly in real world is played. There is no denying that he did use a US bank system to make most of his fortune but he also is heavily vested overseas The reality is he has nothing to lose at his age. I have yet to see a billionaire go completely broke to the poor house. But because you made it personal, now it's my turn. Stop living in the past as it is clearly evident by past comments that you are among the Abe supporters but not willing to shed the blood or pay the price required of what everyone else knows but instead cower behind a computer while it is American US blood that runs and has kept the peace in this region since WWII. And in case you forgot it was US the Japanese who attacked America and it was the Americans who kicked our butts and gladly so, since we have been at peace since then.

The price of oil has dropped through the floor.

Overall, that's a good thing?? Be careful what you wish for.

Russia can sell their oil and gas at discount to China.

Why? They can get a better deal with the Iranians.

Let them make the investment for the export facilities. I do think that once these facilities are built Russia will steal Japans investment like they have done before. So there will be no peace treaty with Russia. I get tired of these stories.

I think you're overreacting just a tad.

Yubaru wrote:

See what would have happened if Russia actually invaded Hokkaido and northern Japan? Like it or not, Hiroshima and Nagasaki helped to prevent a much bigger headache, a totally divided Japan.

Well, there you have it folks. If killing babies in their cribs can avoid a headache, its A-OK, cause I mean this island issue and/or a divided Japan would just be such a very, very big headache. I mean so, so big!

From the article:

calling on Tokyo to “recognise” post-WWII “historic realities.”

Recognizing reality has never been a Japanese strong point, and that is why they lost the war and those islands.

Time for Japan to send in troops and take the Islands back. and they will get totally raped by the Russian military, America certainly wont step in and help Japan on this issue, since the islands are not even Japan at present.

Well, that was a fast four thumbs down. I guess some people think only uniformed Japanese military personnel, such as Sadako Sasaki, died as a result of the atomic bombings of two civilian cities.

Yes, I am totally aware that the atomic bombings prevented a much more massive Soviet invasion and a loss of greater territory than just the Kuriles. I just don't see how that becomes a justification for violating some very basic morals and even the international law banning the bombardment of civilian cities. Sounds to me like a mom who swears her serial killer son was always a "good boy".

@YuriOtaniSEP. 22, 2015 - 12:04PM JST

Kazuaki Shimazaki so tell me what Russia has that Japan needs? The price of oil has dropped through the floor. It would cost money to make the facilities so Russia can export the oil. Russia can sell their oil and gas at discount to China. Let them make the investment for the export facilities. I do think that once these facilities are built Russia will steal Japans investment like they have done before. So there will be no peace treaty with Russia. I get tired of these stories.

Oil may be relatively cheap for now. Nevertheless, despite promises of shale and stuff, unless we somehow pull ourselves off those hydrocarbons with something revolutionary, the long term trend for oil is still scarcity, so it is short-sighted to just look at these few years. Since I don't think Japan is going to suddenly discover oil or even shale in its controlled areas, gaining more points of access has clear advantages.

Besides, in my passage, oil was actually the less important point. The fact of the matter is that this process of befriending Russia should have started in 1990, but Japan can still gain some advantage from doing it now. The thing is, the West keeps complaining about Russia getting too close to China, but they haven't exactly been offering real alternatives so what other result could they expect? Of course, it doesn't hurt them very much that China gets militarily stronger, but Japan eats it in the face.

By befriending Russia, Japan gets to not watch its northern side as closely (a huge military advantage). Further, it can be used as a lever to reduce Russian arms sales to the Chinese. This reduces the rate of growth of Chinese military power, which leads to greater security for Japan. If Japan had started this in 1990, China might still be flying modernized J-8s instead of J-15s, to take one example.

Ultimately, it is not in Russia's interest to have a strong Chinese military - they have too much "contact area". However, they need to keep their arms industry running and so they are selling, to the cost of the Asian nations. Japan is really paying the price for Americo-European Russophobia.

I don't think the Japanese government and people believe that Russia will return the northern islands. The Japanese government just doesn't want to be the one which give up the territory, just not their time.

The japanese rightist govt under Abe wants the Kurile issue being kept at a boiling point to divert dissatisfication and fury when polls show a slipping popularity of LDP. They were the one really dont want peace.

Christopher Glen Japan could've had 2 of the islands back - and concluded a peace deal - if they'd accepted reality earlier. All this wailing and "all or nothing" stance has left them with exactly that - nothing

Yes it's truth. Till the last year it was possible.

@NDwaringa

Time for Japan to send in troops and take the Islands back.

Russia very dangerous...You go first! (think Raiders of the lost Ark).

Pukey2 The Japanese government has been given this 'take it or leave it' so many times. There'll come a time when Russia won't even bother speaking to you or do any trade with you.

Correct. Or it give wrong impression that trade is possible... Russian government should think about inner-political reasons.. People in Russia understand this "negotiations" less and less

So - the dead line for deal was painted , crossed...

Forget it ....

Japan and Japanese people will never give up on these islands.

Japan and Japanese people will never give up on these islands.

I was not aware we had a spokesperson for all Japanese people here at JT. It sure must keep a person busy to have to go out and get the opinions of 127 million people. And despite all the Japanese I talk to every single day, I cannot remember the opinion of one of them concerning the Kuriles! They never bring it up!

Russia has a vast territory; however, it has hard time to control them.

I

@tinawatanabe"Japan and Japanese people will never give up on these islands".

Unfortunately, it turned out to be a dream. When Putin offered a possible solution (at least 2 islets), Mr Abe chose to serve the US interests and refused to talk. In short, it's a matter of self-respect for Russians. Hardly Mr Abe or someone else would find another chance for successful negotiations.

Peace OutSEP. 22, 2015 - 05:43PM JST

Japan and Japanese people will never give up on these islands.

I was not aware we had a spokesperson for all Japanese people here at JT. It sure must keep a person busy to have to go out and get the opinions of 127 million people. And despite all the Japanese I talk to every single day, I cannot remember the opinion of one of them concerning the Kuriles! They never bring it up!

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I am aware you have mission to stop JAPANese writers.

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Russia now want Arabic countries hotter than Kuril. Getting out from cold Russia?

Why should Russia invade Hokkaido and northern Japan?

Go study some history before you comment please.

"calling on Tokyo to “recognise” post-WWII “historic realities.”

Those realities are the Russian military is way stronger than the Japanese military, and the Russians can keep what they stole.

There are some posters here who should be living in Russia rather than in Japan. Shoo shoo.

tinawatanabe There are some posters here who should be living in Russia rather than in Japan. Shoo shoo

But of course ! From Russia ! I hope it's great that we can discuss this problem.

Before www-era it was impossible.

But luckily we living in 21 th century.

___@OlegekSEP. 22, 2015 - 10:21PM JST tinawatanabe There are some posters here who should be living in Russia rather than in Japan. Shoo shoo But of course ! From Russia ! I hope it's great that we can discuss this problem. Before www-era it was impossible. But luckily we living in 21 th century.

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Was it impossiboe? JCP and SCP members were telling whatever propaganda that people ignored. Where in Japan were you living before 1941/?

@Yubaru"Go study some history"

For what reason? I know historical myths "made in USA" such as "Russian threat to Hokkaido" and "Chinese threat to Okinawa". The first was created to justify nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the second one was created to justify American occupation of Okinawa. Simple as that.

Kazuaki Shimazaki once Japan signs a peace treaty, Russia will turn against Japan. All Japanese investments will be seized and any "rights" granted will be taken back. Russia needs to stop sending their planes into Japanese airspace! So what there is no peace treaty. Russia is trying to bully Japan but it will not work! I think any attack on Russia is insane but Japan will defend itself to the utmost! I see an implied threat in the Russian statement. All Russia is doing is driving a wedge in relations with Japan. Japan should stop all talks with Russia as a waste of time. Come back when you stop beating the war drums.

Japan and Japanese people will never give up on these islands.

He who dares, wins.

There are some posters here who should be living in Russia rather than in Japan. Shoo shoo.

And there are many japanese who are ungrateful that the US restored sovereignty to Japan after the occupation. Rejoice, rejoice.

Russia needs to stop sending their planes into Japanese airspace!

So stop them. Words are just that- words. It's the japanese who must respect the terms and conditions of their unconditional surrender to the former allies. Not the other way around.

Yamashi Yubaru wrote history, not 80 % fiction books.

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@shibuya If the bird doesn't sing, wait until it sings.

鳴かぬなら鳴くまで待とう時鳥

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if hototogisu does not cry, I shall wait when hototogisu sounds to tell me it is morning.

(to wakw uo and continue traveling in lonely mountain road.

Wc 626 >And there are many japanese who are ungrateful that the US restored sovereignty to Japan after the occupation. Rejoice, rejoice.

Okinawa is still under US military occupation and some would say Japan as well. After all they brought down Japanese Prime Ministers who dare disagree with them. I still think all of this talk about the northern territories is hurting relations and not helping. Until Russia has a realistic offer they should stop bullying Japan into a treaty. So Wc you want Japan to start a war with Russia? Will America honor its defense agreement or ignore it as it would of been a result of Japanese "aggression".

Japan is not going to attack Russia! Any aggression must be done by Russia and Japan is ready to respond. Once we are at war then all bets are off! but Japan wants peace not war. Again come back Russia when you have something to offer.

@Wx626: And there are many Japanese who are grateful GHQ stopped Japan became communism country.

Just imagine, if Japan had surrendered before the Soviets got involved - or even better, not started the Pacific war - they'd still be in possession of all 4 islets

Japan need to retake all 4 Island by force. Russian Government is becoming WWII Nazi Government.

Sergei Lavrov and Dmitry Medvedev are not welcome to Japan and they should be kicking out of Japan if they ever landed on Japanese mainland. They are Nazi.

japan must stand firm that the kuril islands are japanese, as russia is the occupier. america will always stand with partner japan in her defense

toshiko @Wx626: And there are many Japanese who are grateful GHQ stopped Japan became communism country.

I gonna disappoint you. Look at the Big Red China - you can like it or you can dislike it, but you can't ignore that fact that Mao was Chinese national leader (and not Soviet marionette)

When we talk about Kim family and North Korea we should not forget that unlike South Korea it was national Korean state, ruled by Korean leaders...

When we talk about North and South Vietnam - we have always the same situation.

So your idea - that nations from Far East can't manage their own states and badly need gently foreign help ?

@OlegekSEP. 24, 2015 - 07:02PM JST toshiko @WC626: And there are many Japanese who are grateful GHQ stopped Japan became communism country.

I gonna disappoint you. Look at the Big Red China - you can like it or you can dislike it, but you can't ignore that fact that Mao was Chinese national leader (and not Soviet marionette) $ When we talk about Kim family and North Korea we should not forget that unlike South Korea it was national Korean $state, ruled by Korean leaders...

When we talk about North and South Vietnam - we have always the same situation.

So your idea - that nations from Far East can't manage their own states and badly need gently foreign help ?a - that nations from Far East can't manage their own states and badly need gently foreign help ?

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Are you hoping Japan to be a communist country under Soviet? I suggest you go back to your country and promote out of dated Soviet style communism in your country. Soviet no longer exist so beg the communism countries you admire to finance you. Be careful in N Korea. Fat so dictaet is expert in feeding anyone to dogs. Hd fed his uncle to dos to get power.

hoping Japan to be a communist country under Soviet?

Today China Vietnam and N Korea - independent countries without foreign military bases. Are you agreed?

Japan and Japanese people will never give up on these islands. and Im sure Russias will is equally strong if not stronger. Im sure Russia will give them back eventually, but its gonna cost Japan a hell of a lot of money/diplomatic concessions for Russia. Just depends if Japan and Japanese think its worth it!?

ndwariga: Time for Japan to send in troops and take the Islands back.

That's right ... go it ...

http://new1.fjcdn.com/pictures/Then_687682_745217.jpg

Japan Then, Japan Today. USA then, USA today. Germany then, Germany today. Russia then, Russia today. Finland then, Finland today.