Japan steps into South China Sea territorial feud

What can Japan do? Japan had diplomatic and economic leverage in the 80's and 90's, and had a chance to develop a better relations with China by offering sincere apology and moving forward, but what happened? They became more obnoxious. Today, Japan pretend that they can make difference with the loud voice of concern but they run away from the problems. Japan has a weak dysfunctional goverment that has no sense of directions and only thing they can do is to follow the orders of U.S. If Japan has any guts, why don't they have economic boyott of China? Reality is Japan is so dependent on China that all they could do is keep bowing lower and keep thinking of themselves as victims.

Japan has every right to protect sea lanes. As you read earlier, 88 percent of its oil comes through the South China Sea and as you read before China claims most of the South China Sea, thousands of nautical miles beyond its EEZ. In a sense it is telling five other nations in the area that they have no EEZ which is in violation of the UNICLOS which China signed and ratified in 1982. Its claims give countries like the Philippines, Vietnam and Brunei only 12 nautical miles all along its coastlines. How can that be? It signed the convention. UNICLOS established the boundaries for all five countries in the South China Sea, giving each country its fair share of sea to use for exploration, but the Chinese ignore this.

sfjp330

Japan had diplomatic and economic leverage in the 80's and 90's, and had a chance to develop a better relations with China by offering sincere apology and moving forward, but what happened? They became more obnoxious.

Yeah...... Nah. Can't agree with the last part. And it has nothing to do with it. By the way, who is obnoxious now? Yes, japan has a weak government. And yeah, if Japan had any guts it would boycott Chinese products but the sad part is that China makes up most of their business. Hopefully, someday there will be way out of that.

Reality is Japan is so dependent on China that all they could do is keep bowing lower Yes, and this is something that countries must stop doing. Stop going for the short term profit and go for the long term one. Maybe painful now, but eventually it will get better.

troyinjapanSep. 21, 2011 - 09:13AM JST. Japan has every right to protect sea lanes.

Japan protect the sea lanes? For what? U.S. is doing this already. Japan does not have any problem with China on sea lane issues. We know 90 percent of the oil that Japan import comes from middle east.

This bullying by Japan, Philippines and Vietnam is getting ridiculous. Why are they poking sticks at China. China is a peaceful country and not warlike and aggressive. Such provocations just lead to an expensive arms race which aides nobody. In the philipinnes and Vietnam and Even China, many people live on less than 2dollars a day. What a waste of money weapons are.

Japan, please stay away from this issues coz you become busybody. nothing related to you.

Obviously the Philippines chose Japan to step in because knowing that Japan is also in a land dispute with China they will likely sympathize. Unfortunately, it is likely only to backfire and anger Beijing, making any negotiations on said issues more difficult, and China more aggressive. Bad move by Japan to get involved.

Asagao - brainwashed much?

China is the one being aggressive, they are attempting to steal the natural resources that are present within the EEZ of other nations. China is claiming up to 900 miles off its shores, whereas, legally they should only claim 200 miles.

Maybe the Chinese are peaceful, but their government is an aggressive bully.

smithinjapan, the Philippines has a joke of a navy mostly old American WWII stuff with a 1960's coast guard cutter. Japan has a modern navy that would give the Chinese hell in any fight. Add the American 7th fleet and the Chinese are crispy critters. Like the Clint Eastwood movies, Japan should tell China "do you feel lucky today punk?"

@YuriOtani

for having such a cute little manga girl character, you sure have the china- bating jingoistic jargon in the lingua franca USAnese down pat! sounds like you are an advocate for the american military industrial complex, wanting the phillippines to invest in upgrades for their "old american wwii stuff".

china has recently agreed upon a multilateral framework with other nations in the area to resolve the disputes. there are many overlapping claims between those nations.

basically, it seems that you are engaged in "threat construction" where there is none. what is your interest in that?

the japanese officials are advocating resolution of the issues within the international framework--which also applies to the territorial disputes between japan and china--through diplomacy.

China won't back out from their claim of the entire South China Sea (especially they know they have weight now). Yeah just continuing sitting there discussing while China takes claim.

YuriOtani

smithinjapan, the Philippines has a joke of a navy mostly old American WWII stuff with a 1960's coast guard cutter. Japan has a modern navy that would give the Chinese hell in any fight. Add the American 7th fleet and the Chinese are crispy critters. Like the Clint Eastwood movies, Japan should tell China "do you feel lucky today punk?"

Yuri, is this the same American military you constantly accuse of war crimes, rape, crimes against the Okinawans, the same military you slam and demand out of Japan at every opportunity. Wow the word hypocrite springs to mind right about now. You dont want them here until you see a need for them hey...

China should discussing the disputes in space when japan's 'satellites' flying over Chinese airspace! That is the true defeinition of 'win-win' relationship!

Yuri I kind of have to agree with sqidapig on that one. I do remember you came down pretty hard on the US before. I mean real hard. And that does happen a lot here in Japan. Sorry to not be constructive. Just something I also noticed from earlier posts.

I do have to agree with some posters here. Smith said and I have to agree to most of this:

knowing that Japan is also in a land dispute with China they will likely sympathize. Unfortunately, it is likely only to backfire and anger Beijing, making any negotiations on said issues more difficult, and China more aggressive. Bad move by Japan to get involved.

The last part "bad move by Japan to get involved" is true in the short term, but if Japan can get enough countries in the Asian community to take up this issue then it will be in Japan's better interest to do so. Yes, there are going to be some angry words and some negotiations might be put in danger but I don't really see Japan gaining too much by ignoring the issue. The longer China remains unchecked, the more powerful she becomes and the more power other Asian countries lose. For me, I see it as a short term lose, long term gain in the right things happen.

"in" the right things happen should read "If" the right things happen.

I love Yuri Otani and her awesome comments! Go! Yuri Go! China is just trying to figure out how to keep all of its own hungry, young angry male population that will NEVER be able to get married busy. This said, hey, start a few territorial disputes with tiny countries just to make China look like a victim right?? Never try this directly with Russia, India and or the USA right??

@asagoe

This bullying by Japan, Philippines and Vietnam is getting ridiculous. Ummmmm. REALLY? Are you serious? What bullying would that be? China claiming 75% of the South China Sea? 676 nautical miles from it's own southernmost coastline? What should the Philippines do? Give China the whole thing right up to the sand? Should Vietnam just give up exploration right on its shoreline all the ways south to its southern most point, so that China can get fat? Should Japan just mind it business and let China control sea lanes that bring on 88% of its oil? Those are bullies?

Noooooooo. They are not bullies. China is the one shoving its weight around the oceans and seas and telling everyone that it has rights that it doesn't. Signed and ratified the UNICLOS which gave every country in the South China Sea its fair portion of it but China chose to ignore that and take what it wanted. Told ASEAN to shut up and that it would only have bilateral discussion with each individual country so that it could get what it wants. That is the Bully. Ask the North Western people of China, the muslins, christians, and Tibetians who the bully is.

China is a peaceful country and not warlike and aggressive. Once again ask Tibet, the muslims and the Northwestern Chinese. Ask the people in the South China Sea who have been run off from their own fishing grounds b the Chinese NAVY.

Such provocations just lead to an expensive arms race which aides nobody. In the philipinnes and Vietnam and Even China, many people live on less than 2dollars a day. What a waste of money weapons are.

Asagoe, that is the first thing that you said that was right. It is a waste of money, but how long will countries continue to let CHina bully them around? Not very long I hope.

Ask the people in the South China Sea who have been run off from their own fishing grounds b the Chinese NAVY of China is what you think it is.

@Elbuda Mexicano

China is just trying to figure out how to keep all of its own hungry, young angry male population that will NEVER be able to get married busy. This said, hey, start a few territorial disputes with tiny countries just to make China look like a victim right?? Never try this directly with Russia, India and or the USA right??

I love that. Not too much fact to support it but I still like it just the same. One problem, they do have problems with India, but they are not going to get too aggressive with INdia for sure. It would be too ugly but a war.

@Elbuda Mexicano > China is just trying to figure out how to keep all of its own hungry, young angry male population that will NEVER be able to get married busy. This said, hey, start a few territorial disputes with tiny countries just to make China look like a victim right?? Never try this directly with Russia, India and or the USA right??

I love that. Not too much fact to support it but I still like it just the same. One problem, they do have problems with India, but they are not going to get too aggressive with INdia for sure. It would be too ugly but a war.

too ugly of a war

YuriOtani: "smithinjapan, the Philippines has a joke of a navy mostly old American WWII stuff with a 1960's coast guard cutter."

I really don't see how this relates to my point. True, Japan has a far superior military than the Philippines, but that helps no one if China becomes more arrogant, hostile, and stubborn about the land issues both with the Philippines and Japan. As for Japan 'giving China hell', why the increased support for US troop presence in the face of increased military spending and activity by China if that's the case? But I don't want to go off-topic with that too much.

troyinjapan: I'm not saying Japan should 'ignore' the issue, but stepping in so blatantly will do more harm than good, in both the short and long run. They should have said they will monitor the situation but that it is a bilateral issue, until they can get the support from other nations that you mentioned. Jumping in now and looking for the necessary support later is counter-productive.

Can Japan live in peace with others, please? Please!

I agree, Smith, that it's best not to bait the tiger; China has thus far behaved rather calmly towards the issue, with claims being defended roughly in the same manner as those from Vietnam and the Philippines. Still, they are the 800 lb gorilla, and certain countermeasures are best thought out before the gorilla bursts from its cage.

Much talk has been made of an "Asian NATO," a concept which will never be realized. Closer cooperation is still possible, though. It would be interesting to see a working group made up of Asian democracies: South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Thailand, Australia. Emphasizing the "democracy" aspect would technically and pointedly exclude China and also give more incentive to Vietnam and other developing countries to open up. Repeatedly exercised channels of consultation and cooperation would help inhibit rash actions and provide a framework for solving them quickly if they did occur.

elbudmexico:

young angry male population that will NEVER be able to get married busy.

I'd rather see them remain unmarried than being decapitated, or strung up with their innards hanging out, or shot in broad daylight. What happens in your country?

@Elbuda Mexicano

your fanboy-like promotion of yuriotani's belligerent comments is somewhat curious.

@troyinjapan

your fanboy-like promotion of Elbuda Mexicano's belligerent comments is somewhat curious. moreover, you seem to be taking up a lot of real estate on comments pages related to china, but all you do is repeat the same china-baiting message, adding nothing to the conversation, while making remarks about the comments of other posters as if you were some sort of authority.

what is it with you groupy types whom i see continually trying to project an image that you are pro-japan on this forum by purely negative pronouncements attacking some entity or another? are you trying to endear the japanese so you can get them to fight on your side or something like that? trying to make them "take sides"? a kind of divide and conquer exercise in the social-media sphere?

Washington, which says a peaceful resolution of the disputes is in its interest, has offered to help the claimants settle the row

Almighty US wanting to meddle in others' affairs again much?

Spidapig24, you confuse the past with the present. When I talk about war crimes it is during WWII. The Americans of the present are very different people. I have talked to some American WWII vets and they are well different from the American military of today. As for the Philippine Navy it would need help to deal with China. It is ok for pirates but not China. My point is the Philippine Navy has come to America and Japan for help against the bully Peoples Republic of China.

YuriOtani

Spidapig24, you confuse the past with the present. When I talk about war crimes it is during WWII. The Americans of the present are very different people. I have talked to some American WWII vets and they are well different from the American military of today.

Not at all Yuri, it wasnt that long ago that you where accusing the US military on Okinawa of crimes against the people and screaming for them to get out of Japan. Now you suddenly want their help. If you dont remember l suggest you go read your posts on the US bases. Very amusing how you have changed your tune.

Spidapig24, it is my right to change my mind. It has been changed for more than one reason.

... Japan is not a party to the conflicting claims in the vast South China Sea and its entry into the debate is likely to anger Beijing. ...

True and true.

... China has called for bilateral negotiations on the disputes,...

Clever girl.

...Washington, which says a peaceful resolution of the disputes is in its interest, has offered to help the claimants settle the row,...

Always the same. Never helps.

..."These kinds of issues are dealt basically between the parties concerned," Urabe said at a news conference. ...

He knows, China is right. It is also clear to the rest of the international community.

...However, he added that "since there is this legitimate interest about the safety of the sea, we also have an interest in how things are developing."...

He-ha, "Legitimate interest" to maintain peace ... What can be a weaker statement than that? Everybody will immediately understand everything and will support Japan for their own legitimate interests, such as money and favors. So, at best, Japan will gather a group of pitiful countries, such as Philippines, which will kick Japan off once they get what they want, such as they did with the US. No serious players will support Japanese "legitimate interests". Wrong language.

About 88 percent of the oil that powers Japan's industries passes through the South China Sea from the Middle East, along with other Japanese imports and exports, the Japanese Embassy says.

Thus, good relationships with China are more important that Philippines and their interests.

Actually, to be honest, I don't understand, why Japan is stepping in between China and Philippines. What is the real aim? To control Philippines? What can Japan offer? What can Philippines offer? Can someone from Japan explain what is the reasoning behind this move? Because from the outside it looks like asking for a fight with someone, whom you feed and make richer yourself. Isn't it stupid?

Has Japan done anything good to China?

tlldcdSep. 22, 2011 - 01:53AM JST. Has Japan done anything good to China?

Its mutual. Should be changed both ways.

Japan is not a party to the conflicting claims in the vast South China Sea and its entry into the debate is likely to anger Beijing

What doesn't anger Beijing in regards to South China Sea recently?

Joint U.S.-Australia-Japan South China Sea Drill.

Joint U.S.-Vietnam South China Sea Drill.

Rejection by both Vietnam and Phillipines to discuss bilaterally regarding South China Sea.

Announcement of joint gas development between Vietnam and India.

“We are not having an alliance against China,”

Classic!

The real clincher for the U.S. could be its growing ties with Vietnam. The two countries are staging naval exercises this year, and Vietnam could well become U.S. main ally in South East Asia. This is because Vietnam is arguably the country in the region most concerned about China’s rising power. Not coincidentally, Vietnam was the last sovereign state to be attacked by China, in 1979, and the two are the most active disputants in the South China Sea. China has the upper hand, as evidenced in 2008, China forced Exxon Mobil to abandon plans to explore for oil off Vietnam’s shore in disputed waters.

A U.S.-Vietnam alliance would be a strong counterweight to China, and could attract support from Japan, Philippines and potentially India and other neighboring countries. However, there is an inherent danger in building a counter-Chinese alliance, namely it could result in South East Asia being divided into competing camps. This would undermine efforts to build Asian unity through organizations such as ASEAN.

KonstaSep. 22, 2011 - 01:48AM JST. why Japan is stepping in between China and Philippines. What is the real aim? To control Philippines? What can Japan offer? What can Philippines offer? Can someone from Japan explain what is the reasoning behind this move?

The Philippines has a claim of an additional 200 miles from its outermost islands based on the geology of its continental shelf. The Philippines could now have the large unexplored oil territory. If this becomes a reality, Japan can benefit greatly by joint investment projects.

It's interesting to think that if the Allied powers during WW2 had stayed in China instead of Japan and prevented communism from rising, as opposed to turning Japan into its present-day democracy, how the shoe would be on the other foot in terms of who's the good guy and bad guy in the region.

YuriOtani

Spidapig24, it is my right to change my mind. It has been changed for more than one reason

Indeed it is your right to change your mind, however after the tirades you launched against the US military in the past it smacks of hypocrisy to suddenly do a u turn just because you feel threatened.

In this area, where Japan is being very blatant in assisting the Philippines, I must agree with Smith on this. Japan really should keep a low profile and see how this goes. Everyone knows China does not play by any rules (as evidenced by their EEZ inclusions that would nearly make it out to Guam), and Japan is not helping this situation.

I say, let Vietnam and the Philippines sort this and see if China wants to abide by UN agreed to guidelines concerning the law of the sea. Take a look here:

http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/convention_overview_convention.htm

This is what was agreed to concerning the oceans, but China does not want to follow. Let other countries deal with them and once it falls through, then the world will better see how China is not the fair player it claims to be.

@the_sicilian

it seems a bit propagandistic to assert that "everyone knows that china does not play by any rules" in light of the fact that a continental-shelf based eez claims have been recognized by the un in another prominent dispute (i.e., north sea), and that in this case, the senkakyu/daiyu island dispute, which japan has chosen to assert an eez claiming the islands as its territory and using a meridian line based eez claim the validity of which is at east as open to question as the chinese claim.

this paper plots the history fairly well.

http://arts.monash.edu.au/psi/news-and-events/apsa/refereed-papers/international-relations/manicom.pdf

I think the current govt of Japan is just attempting to attract some attention by being busy body, involving itself in the South China Sea's territorial disputes under the pretext of free peaceful navigation [for China clearly reinstates its position that its territorial claim won't obstruct any free peaceful navigation there].

Possibly the weak govt think such agitation to China may serve its political interests in domestic Japan, to show its muscle by challenging China!

the_sicilian Sep. 22, 2011 - 08:08PM JST. In this area, where Japan is being very blatant in assisting the Philippines, I must agree with Smith on this. Japan really should keep a low profile and see how this goes. Everyone knows China does not play by any rules (as evidenced by their EEZ inclusions that would nearly make it out to Guam), and Japan is not helping this situation.

There is nothing wrong with J-Goverment assisting Philippines. Japan currently has similar problem with China on Senkaku dispute. Japan has many years of negotiation failure experience with China on this issue and what Philippines wants to do is to compare notes. The Philippines goverment is looking from the different angle of this dispute and consult with U.S. Also, the insights on last years collision with Chinese fishing boat and how Chinese goverment reacted harshly. If similar incident happens near Spatley Island with the Chinese fishing boat, how they could counter with the Chinese goverment. Better relations with Philippines is a good news for Japan.

the_sicilianSep. 22, 2011 - 08:08PM JST. Japan really should keep a low profile and see how this goes.

This is exactly what China want you to do. Do you want all the neighboring countries that surrounds China to do this and walk on a thin line? Japan does not have to be passive. Only thing China understand is force versus force and U.S. knows well. The hardline approach is coming and it is led by U.S.

sfjp330Sep. 23, 2011 - 06:07AM JST ... Only thing China understand is force versus force and U.S. knows well. ...

sfjp330, you probably meant that "China understands only force", because if it is force vs. force then it is normal, isn't it?

Now, you don't probably realize, but this type of thinking is nothing but simple inability to talk or lack of the will to do so. And it is taken as such by the others. China understands only force... Russia understands only force... Japan understands... Well, it would be more correct to say that usually countries understand everything BUT the force. This is true for China, Japan, Russia, Korea and the others. China and Russia recently solved a territorial problem not less difficult than all the other territorial disputes in Asia. And Russia solved a territorial dispute with Norway. By Talking. And Japan can do it too. But for that, a slight change in attitude will be very helpful. ;)

KonstaSep. 23, 2011 - 07:37AM JST. China and Russia recently solved a territorial problem not less difficult than all the other territorial disputes in Asia.

China and Russia worked out their territorial disputes because each could have done a lot of damage to the other if diplomacy failed. Do you really believe China would treat Vietnam or the Philippines as an equal? I'm not saying that the U.S. should get sucked into this, but if you want to see how China will "negotiate" with the small powers in that area, take a look at how they've treated Tibet.

To discus this topic bilateraly between Japan and Philippines is a waste of time. This isue should be addressed and discused at the Trilateral Cooperation Secretariat in acordance with the Agreement on the Establishment of the Trilateral Cooperation Secretariat among the Governments of ROK, Japan and China. Another forum to address this issue could be ASEAN+3.

China is like the desperate Muslim theocracies in the Middle east. It too has to whip us as much nationalist fervor as possible to keep people minds of all the misery in their daily lives. Pitiable Chinese males can't find brides. I am surprised at how many Chinese massage girls in Japan who say they never want to go back to China.

The president of the Philippines has just secured a few weeks ago multi-billion US$ of contracts from Beijing.. Business is business !

@ ubikwit I took a week off, but now I am back. Now let's GO AFTER what you said;

your fanboy-like promotion of Elbuda Mexicano's belligerent comments is somewhat curious.

Belligerent? One, what he said was not. I have heard far, far worse. (What only pro-Chinese can be belligerent?" I think not.

moreover, you seem to be taking up a lot of real estate on comments pages related to china, but all you do is repeat the same china-baiting message, I seem to be taking up too much real estate on comments pages related to China???? Geee, THANK YOU. I take that as a compliment. But if it is not a compliment, I really don't care. It is a free page. I can write as much as I want. If you don't like it, don't read it. I am sorry if I write too much for your attention span.

China baiting message? Well, so what? China has baited the hook with its actions. I bit the hook. I am hooked. When China unbaits the hook stops, I will jump back in the water and find something else. I call it freedom.

adding nothing to the conversation, while making remarks about the comments of other posters as if you were some sort of authority.

Ahhh. I added nothing new to the conversation? Really now? I only added facts, facts, facts, facts and then when I got bored, more facts, so go back and read what I wrote. You will I provided good, educated, researched information for people to read. And if I want to comment on what someone says, so be it. That is what this post is also about. If we agree or don't agree with what someone says is our freedom to comment about. Some sort of authority? Geee, thanks again. I like to think I am because I have spent a very large amount of time researching this subject. You see, I research before I type. That is what I am supposed to do.

Have a great day! Thank you for the compliments.

what is it with you groupy types whom i see continually trying to project an image that you are pro-japan on this forum by purely negative pronouncements attacking some entity or another? are you trying to endear the japanese so you can get them to fight on your side or something like that? trying to make them "take sides"? a kind of divide and conquer exercise in the social-media sphere?

@ubikwit I am so sorry. I forgot the last part of your tirade.

what is it with you groupy types whom i see continually trying to project an image that you are pro-japan on this forum by purely negative pronouncements attacking some entity or another?

WOW! So now I am grumpy? Quite a little name caller aren't we? Well, I am not pro Japan. Yes, I am grumpy when I am read "STUPID. My attack is on China in the South China Sea. I support Brunei, Malaysia, Vietnam and the P.I's. Didn't support Japan on this issue. In fact, I think Japan has reacted negatively in the past to the Daiyo/Sankaku Island issue. So has China and everyone else on the East ChIna Sea Issue. This is an issue that I really can't take a side on, but provocative actions by all parties are stupid and dangerous and should be avoided at all cost. This issue is a dangerous one that only cool heads who do not have their own political agendas in mind, but what is right for everyone. Personally, I think the islands and the surrounding areas should be turned into ecology zones, where no country is allowed to drill of profit from.

are you trying to endear the japanese so you can get them to fight on your side or something like that? trying to make them "take sides"? a kind of divide and conquer exercise in the social-media sphere?

YIkes! Gone off the deep end here, haven't we? The only side I am taking is the side that does not allow China to bully its neighbors around. When that stops, I will happily shut up. But in the meantime, my fingers will keep right on moving. Divide and Conquer is China's style. That is what I am against.

By the way, I do want to thank you for your informative PDF file that you contributed to this forum. I hope you don't mind me "Thanking YOU". LMFAO. MY, my, my, my...........

Who is grumpy? I think you showed who was.......

The philippine has never been an aggressive - imperialistic country. our people have tried to have peace with our neighbors, japan and the philippine maintain good relations, we are a co founder of asean. we have always valued diplomacy rather than force. japan. and the philippines maintained ties since the ancient times with the first japanese overseas communities founded in the philippines. The filipinos have always regarded japan as a protector, our rajahs and datus (leaders) asked for help against the spaniards but political factors in japan (transition to tokugawa period) did not allow help to materialize. the philippine got occupied for 300 years. whatever happens to the philippines - would have dire consequences for japan. surrounded by north korea and china - a conquered philippines would be hostile to japan. japan would be a fish caught in a net. with no where to go. with the US in decline, it is in the best interest of japan to have stronger allies in times of need. we should work together to promote diplomacy and prevent war. war can only be prevented if we make the other side realize how costly it is. we must make china realize that force is not an honorable tool for getting what you want. Japan is not the only country who has committed to helping the philippines. the australians and the south koreans have vowed to help us. the vietnamese and the indonesians have also agreed to provide coordinated mutual patrols. China is not the only ancient kingdom. japan, india and Madjapahit (the ASEAN) are as old. we filipinos are loyal friends. but never again will we be conquered.