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Ultra-rightwing group members holding Japanese national flags enter Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo on Saturday.
REUTERS/Kim Kyung-Hoon
Koizumi, Abe among lawmakers to visit Yasukuni Shrine
Sunday 16th August, 03:48 AM JST
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Latest 15 of 89 Total Comments Show All
kinniku at 11:17 PM JST - 18th August
nigelboy,
Simply because you have consistently attempted to give people the impression that Nippon Izokukai agrees with all aspects of Yasukuni Shrine and that is quite frankly not the case. I have shown you just a few examples (of which there are plenty) where Chairperson Koga has made suggestions that thought should be given to neighboring Asian countries and that PM should consider not going to Yasukuni.
No, it is a fact. Members have suggested such things. 現在の遺族会は靖国神社問題を解決する手段として戦没者追悼国立施設の設立を積極的に要求しており... ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/日本遺族会
I noticed the urgency and of course I understand what it means. However, it also means that Koga does not support (and has not supported) Yasukuni Shrine as it is now. He has also made suggestions in the past that other venues should be considered. He has a right to change his opinion. However, that change does not indicate the same continuous support. OBVIOUSLY.
Only if you do not know what the meaning of 'continuous' is and apparently you do not. There have been very varying degrees of support for aspects of Yasukuni. However, this is not true for the enshrinement of Class A war criminals, which is the crux of the issue.
Sorry, the continuous and constant unflailing support you describe is not that way at all. I have successfully shown some examples of this in this conversation.
I noticed you forgot about your claim that the Ultra Rightist were just 'misguided "youth"'. You should probably consider backtracking on that as well...
OssanAmerica at 05:10 AM JST - 19th August
I agree. The Chinese need to get over it. The Chinese govt already has for the most part.
jmlee8909 at 10:22 AM JST - 19th August
As long as Japanese, in particular Japanese political leaders, negate all the military policies during the WWII and the colonial period, it would be quite difficult for Japan to reconcile its neighboring countries. Visiting Yasukuni Shrine looks another emergence of Nazism.
Seiharinokaze at 02:13 PM JST - 19th August
amerijap,
Because people can get indignant or impassive selectively. According to the Ministry of Welfare and Labor, the the anniversary ceremony at the Nippon Budokan hall is held to mourn comprehensively the war dead since the war that started between Japan and China in 1937. They include soldiers/officers fallen in the battlefield, civilians killed by the bombings, those who died in line of duty related to the war as well as those who died while kept in custody due to the war trials.
The ministry's criteria of the war dead seems to be the same as they used for deciding who were qualified to receive the serviceperson/bereaved family pensions. So the Class A, B, C convicts' souls are notionally also addressed by the ceremony. Bereaved families of those war criminals are being in fact invited to the ceremony every year. It's as if, on the familiar righteous note, Hitler's children attend to mourn him along with the emperor and prime minister. Why nobody pissed off?
nigelboy at 02:24 PM JST - 19th August
No. I stated that Nippon Izokukai supported and continues to support PM's visit to Yasukuni. And you have not PROVIDED A SINGLE evidence to suggest otherwise.
No kinniku. This is not a fact. This is just an entry from wikipedia without any back up whatsoever. I'm sorry but you started your research on Nippon Izokukai on wiki and saw this entry and assumed it was true. It's no wonder that your comments are completely off tangent. The reality is that it's completely the opposite.
When Koizumi was running for President of LDP, he promised the Nippon Izokukai that he would visit Yasukuni in return for their support. (公約） This is common knowledge. And when there was a study by the legislature about the feasibility of building a new memorial site in 2002, Nippon Izokukai along with other organization vehemently opposed by sending their official complaint to the office of PM on November of 2002. During which time Koga made his controversial remark 2005 about the "consideration of other countries", he still stated his opposition of building a new memorial site.
I didn't back off at all. They are "misguided" youths. A few will continue their nonsense until they're old and weary while majority just grow out of it.
kinniku at 06:28 PM JST - 19th August
No, you wrote 'Those who have continually urged the PM's to visit the shrine are Nippon Izokukai consisting of surviving family members.' It has not been continuous as I have shown. First Koga suggesting that thought should be given to neighboring countries in Asia. You then tried to claim it was some media slant, blah, blah blah. Second, the Nippon Izokukai have debated separation of A class war criminals and Koga has called for it on several occasions.
Koga's statements certainly shows there was certainly one member who had questions about it. Discussions about the subject before and after the statement suggests others had similar feelings. Do you deny such debates have taken place within Nippon Izokukai? If so, you would be incorrect...
That's a kick in the head...you use Wikipedia yourself when the mood suits you. Sorry that is the second time you have attempted to blame a source that you use yourself. So again, I must take what you have to say on that with less than a grain of salt. BTW, there is a link to a Mainichi article from which the quote was taken. However, I am aware that link no longer works because Mainich updated their site and many of their articles have disappeared into cyberspace leaving quotes on Wikipedia in their wake. You might remember discussion on JT of a Japanese man convicted in Cambodia of taking obscene pictures of children in which you briefly participated and on which I provided a copy of a Mainichi article that had been copied to a blog. That was also a case of a Mainich article that had disappeared.
Ummm...That is pretty strange thing to suggest as this is the first time I have used Wikipedia in this discussion. I used quite a few other sources above. You have given me no reason to assume what is written is untrue. In fact, you claim Koga quotes in the media were some sort of 'slant' earlier in our discussion. So again, I feel I must take your comments on this regard with quite a bit less than a grain of salt.
I have no problem with your "history lesson" above as much as you have written. However, it is incomplete and leaves out discussions since before 2001 to the present in Nihon Izokukai of making changes in Yasukuni Shrine to be more sensitive to fellow Japanese countrymen and other nations. That is a big hole in the history of events.
My original comments to you where I showed you the Koga quote was a direct response to what you wrote and showed that the chairperson of Nihon Izokukai was suggesting that more thought should be point into the feelings of neighboring countries. I have also shown that Nihon Izokukai and Koga himself have, on a number of occasions, made suggestions that A class war criminals makes it difficult for PMs and average Japanese citizens to feel comfortable visiting Yasukuni. I think that is enough to suggest that while there is support, that there have been gaps in parts of that support. Thus it has not always been 'continual' or 'continuous'.
Again, do you know what a 'youth' is? Have you been to Yasukuni and seen the people you are attempting to describe as 'youths'? These are middle aged people. I have met plenty enough of them to know they are not 'youth'.
kinniku at 07:16 PM JST - 19th August
nigelboy,
When I find I have been in error I readily admit it. I have found the original copy (after some considerable searching) and someone has changed the Mainich article quote that was put on Wikipedia and can also be found on quite a few other sites on the internet.
FYI, I will provide the correct quote:
遺族会は国立追悼施設の建設には反対の立場だが、Ａ級戦犯分祀の検討は、靖国神社のあり方に変革を迫るのが狙い。
Although Nippon Izokukai has taken the position of being against the construction of a national memorial, the discussions of separating A class war criminals has the aim of pressing for reform of Yasukuni Shrine.
search for: http://www.mainichi-msn.co.jp/seiji/kokkai/news/20070919k0000m010170000c.html
on: http://www1.atwiki.jp/dunpoo/pages/496.html
I apologize for quoting a mistaken (read that changed by someone on Wikipeda)quote. Sadly that quote is also to be found all over the internet as I did not originally see discussion of it on Wikipedia. However, I stand by the rest of my argument and I feel that it is solid as you can see that even Nihon Izokukai has felt and feels reform of Yasukuni is necessary and its chairperson has voiced concerns in the past about PM visits and the enshrinement of A class war criminals in Yasukuni.
Mayura at 04:54 PM JST - 20th August
Whether or not they visit the shrine, does it make a difference? The dead will not come back to life, the war is over; so is a visit to a shrine for the dead to be used as excuse to spark another war? The most important thing is for history not to repeat itself.
nigelboy at 10:42 PM JST - 20th August
Kinniku.
My statements was never incorrect.
'Those who have continually urged the PM's to visit the shrine are Nippon Izokukai consisting of surviving family members." stands.
The discussing the possibilities of removing the A-class does in not way change the their position of the above. Only when the organization as a group either urge the PM to NOT visit the shrine and/or support the building of a new memorial site to replace Yasukuni that your argument stand and thus far, you have not OFFERED SINGLE EVIDENCE to support it, PERIOD.
I'll make it simple for you.
Did Nippon Izokukai support PM's visit to the shrine in 2001? Yes. In 2005? Yes. In 2009? Yes.
Why do you keep bringing up something that I already answered which is,
"In any organization, it is not suprising that certain member have dissenting ideas. Koga expressed his own opinion back in June of 2005. But that is not an "evidence" of Nippon Izoku kai as a collective group STOP supporting Yasukuni. "
Thank you. Isn't that quite a contrast from your original position that
"Nippon Izokukai is ASKING for a National Memorial for the War Dead to be set up by the government to replace the Yasukuni Shrine as a way of solving the issue" ?
I just don't see why you can't admit that my ORIGINAL claim on this thread which is that Nippon Izokukai continually supports PM's visit to Yasukuni.
kinniku at 10:53 PM JST - 20th August
nigelboy,
First, you are welcome. It is quite a contrast because I used information that seems to have been based on a false rumor on Wikipedia. As I said, I do apologize for that.
I understand Nippon Izokukai supports it officially. However, based on chairperson Koga's suggestion it does seem that thought has been placed on the difficulties of PM visiting the shrine in it's present shape. Of course I am sure all, or at least most of the families of the war dead would want respect paid to them, especially by the PM. So, of course they would support it. However, what I have been trying to say is that it is obvious that many in the organization do not like the negative view of the visits or the shrine in which their loved ones are enshrined and have been seeking ways to remedy this.
Anyway, it has been interesting discussing this with you.
PepinGalarga at 04:46 AM JST - 21st August
I hope thats the last of the fascists out there. Something needs to be done to get those war criminal remains out of there.
nigelboy at 05:39 AM JST - 21st August
Sigh
It's done.
But of course you still oppose to it, right?
Seiharinokaze.
You bring up an interesting point which is that even if Yasukuni somehow removes the names of A-class criminals, the same group of people will complain about it in the following order.
Removal of B/C criminals--->Existence of Yasukuni itself-->全国戦没者追悼式 at Buddokan
PepinGalarga at 01:33 PM JST - 22nd August
nigel: as far as I know the war criminals are still there. 14 class A criminals, including Hideki Tojo. They were added in 1978 in secret.
I am aware with all the issues on both sides. A lot of heavy religious beliefs would have to be considered, and Yasukuni is not like other Shinto shrines, where apparently there is only one "seat" that all kami of the "warriors" share.
I do believe in separation of church and state, and understand that the government has no control over what happens at Yasukuni, however, when the monks at this shrine affect Japan's policies and image abroad, then they are the ones inadvertently mixing religion with politics. "de-enshrinement" has been successfully done before during the times of Tokugawa.
If the original purpose of the shrine is to honor warriors that served for the emperor, and when the current royal family has refused to visit the shrine since the war criminals were added, this should send a strong message to the monks that they need to do something about this.
On top of all this, the museum at this shrine is a joke!! Its like having a museum at Arlington justifying the dropping of the atomic bombs over Japan. How would the fascist far right in Japan (especially Ishihara) feel if that happened?
nigelboy at 02:12 PM JST - 22nd August
Of course, the above info was already posted on this thread, so to me, it's basically stating that you read the entire comments.
And let me guess. You're under the assumption that Class "A"=severest of the crimes like majority of the population here?
You are still not aware since any Shinto shrine is not like other Shinto shrines.
Wrong. If Yasukuni, a private entity, decides to "de-ensrhine", then they are the ones mixing religion with politics.
True. But the emperor stopped visiting Yasukuni after 1975 when the debate among the public at that time was whether a public official should visit on a public capacity. So we really don't know what the reason are behind their reluctance after 1975. However, I can tell you that the constant protest by the "neighbors" have made it virtually impossible for the Emperor to visit.
Who cares. The U.S. teaches their kids that way anyways. Didn't you read about the recent poll?
PepinGalarga at 04:01 PM JST - 23rd August
i dont have to read the article or the comments to know that they are still there. This is not a reading comprehension test.
I would like all war criminals out of Yasukuni in the same way that war ciminals from the USA don't belong in Arlington cemetery. Shinto religious beliefs make this an impossibility.
Traditional shinto shrines have one seat for each Kami. This is not the case in Yasukuni.
According to internal sources the Emperor did mention the enshrinemnt of war criminals as the reason for not going anymore to Yasukuni.
Every country teaches history in its own way, I'm not defending anyone here. The point is that a cemetery is a place for burying and honoring the dead not a place to be holding history lessons.
i dont have time to prove any of this just search on google. i got better things to do haha.