Sunday May 27, 2012

JAPAN NEWS AND DISCUSSION

Nanjing suspends ties with Nagoya after mayor disputes massacre

Politics Feb. 22, 2012 - 04:00PM JST ( 69 )

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China says Japan killed 300,000 people in an orgy of murder, rape and destruction in the eastern city of Nanjing

Some Japanese academics have contested the number of casualties in Nanjing

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69 Comments

2

smithinjapanFeb. 22, 2012 - 04:30PM JST

I saw this article in the Japanese news earlier only all it said was, "Nanjing suspends ties with Nagoya". What an utter moron to not only question what happened in Nanjing to the Chinese official that 'it never happened'. I wonder how Japan is going to spin this in order to portray themselves as the victim here.
3

okiokioviFeb. 22, 2012 - 04:34PM JST

“Some Japanese people should correctly understand… that period of history, and earnestly draw lessons from history.”

Exactly. Despite not being certain of the number of casualties, there is no denying that The "Rape of Nanjing" occurred. Shame on Nagoya's Kawamura.
2

Ben_JackinoffFeb. 22, 2012 - 04:41PM JST

This'll sure help mend fences.
4

SquidBertFeb. 22, 2012 - 04:53PM JST

If the Japanese could only stop electing the decedents of these military families into power all the time.
3

CletusFeb. 22, 2012 - 04:56PM JST

Is this really a great surprise, not only is Nagoya a boil on the butt of Japan. You just have to head into the area around Nagoya castle to see the lovely folks in their lovely black vans cruising the area spewing their love of all things Japanese. As someone who lives in Nagoya l am totally embarrassed by this idiots comments, but then again with his father being in Nanjing towards the end of the war he probably took part in some war crimes himself so no wonder sonny is defending the crimes.

The sad fact is ever now and then a Japanese official may say what they think but unfortunately it appears to be that they are merely saying what many Japanese silently believe as the truth and no wonder given their sheltered warped view of their war history.
3

namabiru4meFeb. 22, 2012 - 04:57PM JST

Oh come on!!!! He just said they used “conventional acts of combat” ...Japanese does things different from the rest of the world and has done "kaizen" to combat to include mass murders and rape. And don't forget the 5S from the hub of Japanese manufacturing: Sex Slaves, Slaughter, Systematic-Denial, and Stupidity.
11

SquidBertFeb. 22, 2012 - 05:15PM JST

I guess my JT site karma is going to take a hit, but:

I wonder how the Japanese would feel if the mayor of Honolulu(Hiroshimas twin city) stated that he doubted that the bombing of Hiroshima ever took place. And if it took place it was only a conventional bomb which probably just killed 20000 soldiers in civilian clothes (a statement used about nanjin).
2

CletusFeb. 22, 2012 - 05:25PM JST

SquidBert,

So true!

Imagine the outrage that would cause to the perpetual victim country. This is the same country that plays down others suffering at Japanese hands yet loves to highlight Japanese suffering at the hands of the Allies. While playing down Japanese actions some posters on here even bump up the number of Japanese casualties 10 fold. Wont mention any names Yuri!!!!
2

tmarieFeb. 22, 2012 - 05:27PM JST

Cletus, you and me both. Yet one more reason for me to dislike Nagoya.

Ishihara the racist running Tokyo, Hashimoto the facist in Osaka and Kawamura the denier in Nagoya. And the locals wonder why some countries hate them...
4

smithinjapanFeb. 22, 2012 - 05:36PM JST

SquidBert: Exactly! When the Japanese feel wronged -- which is pretty much in everything -- they will take half a textbook and make it about that, in incredible detail. When they only PRETEND to be wronged, or 'misunderstood', but in fact have done wrong themselves, it is a footnote in history books, and later erased altogether by ultra-nationalists who claim to know what really happened despite not being there (and deny any Japanese admittance of any and all atrocities). Look at the current debate on sex-slaves to see how in denial the Japanese are on their atrocities!

As with denying the holocaust, denying the Rape of Nanjing should be a crime punished by jail time. Japan has inflicted more pain and more suffering on its neighbours than is countable, but they claim to always be the victims of everything. Shame on this clown mayor for saying what he said, and good on China for cutting ties to send a message. I hope this gets international attention and the guy is embarrassed into quitting (that's what it takes, sadly). Sure, he would only apologize for 'misunderstandings' and never admit what he said was wrong, but hey.

Japan should once again hang its head low in shame, or at least voice their opinions about this idiot and send him packing. Sadly, he'll probably get MORE votes and Japan will claim the victim of China's actions.
2

CletusFeb. 22, 2012 - 05:39PM JST

tmarie

Cletus, you and me both. Yet one more reason for me to dislike Nagoya.

Thats one more on a very long list lm afraid.

And the locals wonder why some countries hate them...

Sadly the locals just dont get it! They cant seem to realise that its their actions that bring this on themselves and seem eager to blame everyone else. If finger pointing was an Olympic event l know who would win....
2

tmarieFeb. 22, 2012 - 05:46PM JST

Indeed - and my list is very, very, very long.

Always the victim, always the pity party... And yet, so clueless, so so clueless. The more their economy drops, the less relevant they are, the less people care, the more they dig their own hole... Yet, clueless.
4

kukuchaiFeb. 22, 2012 - 06:28PM JST

must admit and learn abou the mistake had been done before! shame and coward japanese who dont want to face the truth!
-5

serendipitousFeb. 22, 2012 - 06:40PM JST

TIme to move on. It's 70 years ago. In the next 10 years, very few who were there will be around. Relations should gradually improve because of this and that is a good thing. Firsthand memories are much more poweful than secondhand ones I think. Not saying it should all be brushed under the carpet but it is time to move forward. The mayor of Nagoya was stupid to say what he said. He must have known that would stir up trouble, even more so considering he was talking about Nagoya's sister city in China!
-2

serendipitousFeb. 22, 2012 - 06:42PM JST

Correction: it's actually 75 years ago.
2

CletusFeb. 22, 2012 - 06:45PM JST

serendipitous

TIme to move on. It's 70 years ago. In the next 10 years, very few who were there will be around. Relations should gradually improve because of this and that is a good thing. Firsthand memories are much more poweful than secondhand ones I think. Not saying it should all be brushed under the carpet but it is time to move forward. The mayor of Nagoya was stupid to say what he said. He must have known that would stir up trouble, even more so considering he was talking about Nagoya's sister city in China!

So would you also say that Japan should not commemorate the A bombs, that they should forget their claim on the Northern Territories. Its funny when another nation is aggrieved people say oh its X amount of years later its time to move on. Yet when it comes to Japan being aggrieved NO WAY will they move on. Every year we have the " Where the A bombs a war crime" question and debate and we constantly hear about poor Japans woes but l guess thats ok right?
0

SquidBertFeb. 22, 2012 - 06:58PM JST

@serendipitous,

Time to move on indeed. I couldn't agree more with you. That is why it was so stupid of him to rip open this old wound that was healing.

I say stupid, but that would imply that he did not know what he was doing which is of course wrong. I am sure he was fully aware, and knew exactly what political points he would gain by doing so.
-8

JapanGalFeb. 22, 2012 - 07:50PM JST

I talked with a very old soldier who passed away last year. He was there and said it never happened and I believed him.
1

just-a-bigguyFeb. 22, 2012 - 07:51PM JST

In China, that remarks is no differences like 'declaring war' and that shall never goes without consequences in trade, security and politics! The similar scenario just like the iranian president Ahmedinejad said holocaust was a myth,his remarks angered israeli officals and lead to the warmongering in middleeast!
1

LagunaFeb. 22, 2012 - 07:52PM JST

A bit of advice to Japanese politicians: when you think you're buddies with someone enough that you feel you can say something that will tear off a scar that has taken sixty years to barely heal - don't.
-1

RecklessFeb. 22, 2012 - 07:56PM JST

They say in my country never to discuss religion or politics. In Japan they should say never discuss Nanjing or Comfort Women. That'll keep the politicians out of trouble.
3

RecklessFeb. 22, 2012 - 07:58PM JST

JapanGal, before you make a conclusion based on anecdotal evidence, why don't you try talking to a Chinese survivor or their family. I find it incredibly hard to believe that millions of people would remain angry after all these years if nothing happened. You seem like a typical Japanese who can't see beyond the brilliance of your rising sun.
0

plasticmonkeyFeb. 22, 2012 - 08:22PM JST

This is not the sort of remark that a mayor would just let slip in a meeting with a high-ranking official from Nanjing. It was more likely a deliberate provocation, probably under pressure from rightist groups (or Kawamura's TV friends) who wanted to see him prove his patriotic mettle. If you're sister cities, you don't say crap like that unless you're crazy or you're doing it on a dare. Or both.
-1

serendipitousFeb. 22, 2012 - 08:23PM JST

Cletus

Of course the atomic bombings were a war crime but that is a completely different topic. Japan isn't claiming any compensation from the US or other Allied forces, is she? There are some resolvable issues and some unresolvable. I think the comfort women issue and the Nanjing issue are unresolvable because no one could ever come up with an appropriately worded apology or compensation amount that would please everyone (or anyone for that matter). Some would just say you can't pay off old victims. Others would say any apology is insincere. As the loser of the war, Japan can't really win. The Northern Territories issue is resolvable but Russia needs to play fair. Some may say that Japan rightfully lost those islands after being defeated but those islands should be Japanese territory I believe.
1

smithinjapanFeb. 22, 2012 - 09:00PM JST

JapanGirl: "I talked with a very old soldier who passed away last year. He was there and said it never happened and I believed him."

I know of a few (and saw one) who have gone to Nanjing and apologized to the people there, seeking atrocities for and detailing the atrocities. The government has been quick to state the apologies are not those of the government or the nation of Japan, and undermined the soldiers (who were there while the politicians in question were not) by claiming they had 'hazy memories' of what 'really happened'.
3

Samantha Zoe AsoFeb. 22, 2012 - 09:14PM JST

But my husband, who is Japanese vehemently argues Japan was protecting Asia from us western bad guys. I point blank refuse to get into an argument with him about it. Double standards and hypocrisy. I think Japanese politicians and others in power in full view of the public need to learn a huge lesson in diplomacy. The world is a much smaller place nowadays due to the mass media. Do the powers that be in Japan appreciate that? Do they realize that? Do they realize that the world looks on as they hop around on one leg as the other foot is lodged permanently in their mouths?
3

Geoff GillespieFeb. 22, 2012 - 10:41PM JST

Double standards abound in this country. The war crime that was the A bomb is continually derided but a veil is drawn over the Nanking massacre. They don't like talking about it, they don't teach their high school students about it but, until they face up to it and take responsibility for it, it is only going to continue making their realtionship with China - who they need more than the other way around - very difficult indeed.
2

herefornowFeb. 22, 2012 - 10:43PM JST

“Some Japanese people should correctly understand… that period of history, and earnestly draw lessons from history.”

Never going to happen. We are talking about Japan here, where re-writing history and turning a blind-eye to their atrocities is institutionalized. Truly facing one's past requires real courage, and it is much easier to avoid it for the good of the collective Wa.
1

VirtuosoFeb. 22, 2012 - 10:43PM JST

He was there and said it never happened and I believed him.

JapanGal, isn't it generally common for criminals to deny their crimes, rather than boast about them?
-1

888naffFeb. 22, 2012 - 10:53PM JST

"I wonder how the Japanese would feel if the mayor of Honolulu(Hiroshimas twin city) stated that he doubted that the bombing of Hiroshima ever took place. And if it took place it was only a conventional bomb which probably just killed 20000 soldiers in civilian clothes (a statement used about nanjin)."

Maybe they would say that the westerners weren't ever racist to asians in Hawaii in the decades before WWII and the place wasn't taken by military forces and threats by the USA, instead just conventional means....seriously I think only the details/numbers are up for debate; not that any of those events up to and around WWII actually did or didn't happen.

They could probably more successfully debate the differences in accounts in what has happened since WWII..this will probably help the countries relationships more than anything to do wit WWII.
1

VirtuosoFeb. 22, 2012 - 10:58PM JST

Tokyo's governor Ishihara frequently makes the same Nanjing denials, and intentionally provokes China by referring to it as 支那 (Shina) instead of 中国 (Chugoku). And the voters seem to love him for it.
1

Pukey2Feb. 22, 2012 - 10:59PM JST

Frankly, I don't think Nanjing will be losing any sleep over this disruption in Sino-Japanese ties. China needs Japan far less than Japan needs China (especially the rich Chinese tourists). I can understand if someone were to question the number of victims, but to say a massacre did not occur is preposterous. Rapes, killing pregnant women and ripping out fetuses, bayoneting of people still alive and beheadings occurred. Only the right wing Japanese are in denial (although I suspect they KNOW it happened but won't say so in public).

I know of a few (and saw one) who have gone to Nanjing and apologized to the people there, seeking atrocities for and detailing the atrocities. The government has been quick to state the apologies are not those of the government or the nation of Japan, and undermined the soldiers (who were there while the politicians in question were not) by claiming they had 'hazy memories' of what 'really happened'.

And I bet these people have been ostracized by many of their peers. There are some very civilized and decent Japanese who have done the right thing and admitted to the horrible things that have happened in the past, but why is it the vocal ones are usually always scum?
-2

YuriOtaniFeb. 22, 2012 - 11:44PM JST

One man says something in Japan and the entire country gets bashed. I think what he said is being taken out of context or is a misunderstanding and the Chinese are just looking for a excuse. All of you are looking for excuses to bash my nation. I will not apologize for the actions of my ancestors or now lets others do it. The world is holding Japan to a standard they themselves can not meet just to bash them.
1

dtskedwardsFeb. 22, 2012 - 11:51PM JST

He has always been an idiot
1

mikemiroFeb. 23, 2012 - 12:13AM JST

I totally agree with Squidbert. Japanese ruling elite never changed postwar - it was reestablished by the American commanders postwar as the next generation of leaders after WWII in order to prevent communism from taking hold in Japan. The US made a huge mistake not killing off the Keiretsu/Zaibatsu leaders (the Mitsubishi, Mitsui & Sumitomo elite) as well as the Emperor. Had the US wiped out the structure & control that these oppressive & intolerant autocrats held, Japan might be less rule-bound & closed-minded today & we wouldn't have the mayor of Nagoya making insensitive comments about the people his relatives brutally subjugated.
-1

OssanAmericaFeb. 23, 2012 - 12:35AM JST

Sure something happened. But this 300,000 being "irrefutable or well-documented" is nonsense. And we all know the populatiuon opf Nanking then was 250,000. Even the KMT who were actually there and fought the IJA estimated 100,000. Still it was certainly stupid for a city mayor to even bring it up. It obviously wasn't just plain "combat" since the Chinese troops removed their unifiorms and mingled with the civilians. THAT is well documented from both sides.
-1

TriumvereFeb. 23, 2012 - 12:38AM JST

Diplomacy at its finest.
-1

smithinjapanFeb. 23, 2012 - 12:59AM JST

YuriOtani: "The Japan bashing is too much for me to take."

Seems to be the case of a lot of Japanese, especially politicians and so-called 'historians' (who are experts in nothing but hiding the truth!). Just roll back up in a junior highschool textbook and read about the atomic bombings and you'll feel better. But wait:

"There is so much of it is wrong the Japanese killed civilians but it is acceptable that we did it."

Acceptable to whom? The more than 10 million you killed across Asia? Acceptable to the nation of Japan because, as many excuse makers say, "It helped Asia progress" instead of facing the fact that what Imperial Japan did was tantamount to genocide in many cases, mass rape in nearly all, slaughter in all, and then some? Stop trying to justify what this man said by pretending that he is alone -- he is not. He is supported by EVERYONE that says, "I'm tired of the Japan bashing" when facts of Japanese atrocity are brought to light (yet again) and denied by Japanese (yet again), who say it is just bashing. PMs of Japan are STILL trying to rescind apologies for war-time atrocities! Abe tried it with the sex-slaves and was so humorously shot down he had to resign soon after (for a wee-tummy ache!), and we still have guys like this moron in Nagoya defended by Japanese because they call it bashing to point out that men like him should not have any place in power, let alone have a public voice.

"The Americans are so self righteous it make me puke. "

How would you feel if one said they should never have returned Okinawa to the Japanese? How about if they said the atomic bombings never happened, or that if only military targets were killed and those civilians who might have died as a result volunteered to do so and in no way helped the US military?
-1

nigelboyFeb. 23, 2012 - 01:54AM JST

No point in having a "tie" with a city that houses museum that specifically promotes hate to Japan with questionable displays and evidences.
0

YubaruFeb. 23, 2012 - 06:00AM JST

The dude is an idiot for stating something even remotely related to the topic of Nanjing. Unfortunately he is just stating what plenty of Japanese think and as time passes the history is going to get further distorted because there is no true historical record of numbers which is sad to say the least. It shouldn't matter if it was 3, 300, 3,000, or 300,000 the Japanese are responsible for invading China and were guilty of many crimes there during the illegal occupation. That no sane person should dispute.

However what makes things even worse is that there are generations of Japanese that have NO IDEA about what this ruckus is all about because they are not educated about it in school.

Yes try to look at it from the Chinese point of view, and from the Japanese as well, both are probably exaggerated to one degree or another but there is no denying SOMETHING extremely bad did occur and people should learn to use their own judgement in deciding and not be influenced by just one sides point of history.
-1

some07791Feb. 23, 2012 - 06:30AM JST

The imperial army raped and pillaged Nanking, the whole world, except some in Japan including the Major of Nagoya, accept this. The only argument is the number of victims. In the meantime compare this to the european colonies of the time. Where were the most developed centers in asia (outside of Japan)? singapore, HK, shanghai, Malaya which were magnets for immigrants from other parts of asia. Thats not to say these european empires were entirely benevolent, but they did not engage in systematic, government sanctioned, enslavement, rape and murder; that was all Japan.

The most important fact to remember here: the actions of the Japanese Imperial army in Nanking does not make current Japanese guilty of the crimes.
0

Patrick HattmanFeb. 23, 2012 - 06:36AM JST

The Nanjing Numbers Game...Japan will never learn. No one can ever prove with any certainty how many died in those days and what percentage were combatants and what were not. But there is enough evidence, including first-hand accounts, to establish that some very terrible things happened at that time.

For those that want to completely deny what happened in and around Nanjing in 1937, often due to their belief that the Japanese military was too disciplined for such atrocious actions on such an unbelievable scale, look no further than what they did in the vicinity of Manila in 1945 for additional proof.
1

yasukuniFeb. 23, 2012 - 06:54AM JST

"But my husband, who is Japanese vehemently argues Japan was protecting Asia from us western bad guys."

And the people of China, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Philippines were so grateful.
1

yasukuniFeb. 23, 2012 - 07:09AM JST

People can argue whether Nanking casualties were 300,000, or 200,000 or 20,000 till the cows come home. But IT WASN'T JUST NANKING!

It is disgraceful that educated Japanese are not aware of the suffering caused in WW2. And it's completely stupid at the same time. It doesn't help Japan at all.

Sometimes I feel like Japan is just slipping down a whole hole before my eyes.
-2

YuriOtaniFeb. 23, 2012 - 07:14AM JST

some07791, the Chinese disagree with you. As far as they are concerned we are all guilty and they want to kill ALL of the Japanese people. The hatred of all things Japanese makes it easier for the Communist Party to rule China. One day they will go to war with Japan and try and kill all of us. I still wonder what he really said and what language were they speaking?
1

CletusFeb. 23, 2012 - 07:57AM JST

nigelboy

No point in having a "tie" with a city that houses museum that specifically promotes hate to Japan with questionable displays and evidences.

Have you been to a Japanese museum that has anything to do with the war? You say China promotes hate with questionable displays and evidence, Japan promotes cover ups with total rubbish in their displays. Go to any museum on Japan that has anything war related and you will walk away shaking your head laughing at the total garbage that they write. Whether it be the Peace museum in Hiroshima, the Yamato museum in Kure, the Mikasa museum in Yokosuka the list goes on. My personal favourite is the Mikasa museum where they claim they fought WW2 as a means to rid Asia and save the Asian people from the imperial influences of the western nations. Now that is hilarious l laughed myself silly when l read that.
-1

some07791Feb. 23, 2012 - 08:30AM JST

Yuri, yes, a certain proportion of the Chinese population does somehow think current Japanese citizens who were not alive during the war are still responsible for the imperial army's conduct during it. All this indicates is that some Chinese suffer from ignorance as much as some Japanese who deny the imperial army committed systematic abuses (ie Nanking) throughout the war. Unfortunately, as many people above have indicated, ignorance dies hard. Lets hope the Chinese learn to separate the generations who fought/served in ww2 from those who are alive now.
0

Darren BrannanFeb. 23, 2012 - 09:51AM JST

Japan is rising again. They said it themselves.
2

Samantha Zoe AsoFeb. 23, 2012 - 09:56AM JST

@Yuri. That hatred or dislike seems to flow both ways. I've heard a lot of Japanese make bad and uninformed comments about Chinese.
0

tmarieFeb. 23, 2012 - 03:31PM JST

Sure something happened. But this 300,000 being "irrefutable or well-documented" is nonsense. And we all know the populatiuon opf Nanking then was 250,000. Even the KMT who were actually there and fought the IJA estimated 100,000. Still it was certainly stupid for a city mayor to even bring it up. It obviously wasn't just plain "combat" since the Chinese troops removed their unifiorms and mingled with the civilians. THAT is well documented from both sides. You do know that a lot of people went to Nanking as it was supposed to be safe, right? Of course you don't. You've been reading the Japanese "history" of it all.

Yuri, you can go on about "japan bashing" all you like but no one on here is actually Japan bashing. We're question the idiot mayor, the pathetic textbooks and all the whitewashing that this country has done so they can continue to claim to be the victims of world war II. Japan always gets to play the victim when it comes to Hiroshima and the world lets it. Yet when any other country wants to point out what Japan did to them, they are accused of lying and Japan bashing. It is pathetic and needs to stop. Japan needs to own up to all the horrific things they did. To be honest, Japan is only of the only countries that doesn't and it is rather embarrassing to live here and have people back home ask me why the government and the public are so ill informed about it all.
1

7solace9Feb. 23, 2012 - 04:38PM JST

Some Japanese people should correctly understand… that period of history, and earnestly draw lessons from history.

Well said by China. It goes for anyone who has done something wrong.

If Mr. Kawamura were to be more accurate, he might have said, "I do not know because I was not there, but my dad was there, working for the imperial government, and he told me 'nothing happened.'" And, to balance his view, I should note that I saw a video interview in one of my classes of a Japanese soldier who was in Nanjing and who confessed that he and other soldiers did and saw many of the awful things that have been claimed against them. The guy seemed distraught like he sensed objective moral underpinnings, but was not entirely sure what to do with the "group think" that seemed so right at the time.
1

patty cake championFeb. 23, 2012 - 05:30PM JST

Despite all I've said, I believe the people of Nagoya should seek to remove him. The city deserves better than someone so tactless.
-1

MolenirFeb. 23, 2012 - 07:11PM JST

I wonder, if 20 years from now, when everyone who was living back then has passed on, will the Chinese still be doing idiocy like this? Will Japan? Its been 75 years since this happened. If you were a 2 year old there, you would be 77 now. Its time to let this stuff go.
0

Samantha Zoe AsoFeb. 23, 2012 - 07:23PM JST

@pattycake~ Exactly. He's supposed to be representing that area. He is. Bureaucrat. His own opinion doesn't count. He should put the good of Nagano above his own feelings.

It never ceases to amaze how I hear some Japanese bleating on about maintaining the 'wa' and how sensitive Japanese are compared to other nations when infact, it is quite the opposite.
0

Samantha Zoe AsoFeb. 23, 2012 - 08:37PM JST

Sorry~ Silly IPhone again. I meant to say 'He's a bureaucrat. He should put the needs of the people in Nagoya over his own personal feelings'.
0

tmarieFeb. 23, 2012 - 10:53PM JST

If you've spent any time in Nagoya you'd know that the locals don't care about this crap and half of them are probably very proud he stood up to those cry baby Chinese! Don't they know only Japan (and the Jewish) suffered during WWII??
-2

serendipitousFeb. 23, 2012 - 11:33PM JST

A new question. Is it worse to kill 200,000 people or more in another country or 200,000 people or more in your own country? I'd say China holds the current world record for killing her own people. Cambodia, Rwanda, Sudan, Russia and the former Yugoslavia are distant seconds, thirds etc.
1

FadamorFeb. 24, 2012 - 12:05AM JST

One man says something in Japan and the entire country gets bashed. I think what he said is being taken out of context or is a misunderstanding and the Chinese are just looking for a excuse.

Except this wasn't simply "one man". This was an elected Japanese government official speaking to a Chinese government official FROM NANKING on an official visit from China. When government officials from different countries meet, THEY ARE REPRESENTING THEIR COUNTRIES. For this elected Japanese government official to tell the foreign representative that a horrific event was only "conventional acts of combat" demeans the victims and denies cuplability on the part of the perpetrators. Even the most conservative estimates put the civilian deaths at 20,000. How is 20,000 civilian deaths in one battle a "conventional act of combat"?
-3

nigelboyFeb. 24, 2012 - 12:52AM JST

Have you been to a Japanese museum that has anything to do with the war? You say China promotes hate with questionable displays and evidence, Japan promotes cover ups with total rubbish in their displays

Don't know if Japan uses amatueur photo shopped displays or photos from different military campaign in their museums.
1

AuntyAmerikanFeb. 24, 2012 - 04:01AM JST

I meant to say 'He's a bureaucrat. He should put the needs of the people in Nagoya over his own personal feelings'.

He's a bureaucrat - since when did they ever put the needs of their people before their own?
-1

patty cake championFeb. 24, 2012 - 09:11AM JST

I want to apologize to all the posters who took offense at my posts. I never agreed with Kawamura said, but I wanted to carry the point that his opinion does not reflect the Japanese public at large. But I take this opportunity to all of you who took advantage of this affair to label every Japanese as historical revisionists and every Imperial Japanese Army personnel as butchers to know YOU GOT SERVED.
-1

patty cake championFeb. 24, 2012 - 09:18AM JST

Yuri, you can go on about "japan bashing" all you like but no one on here is actually Japan bashing. We're question the idiot mayor, the pathetic textbooks and all the whitewashing that this country has done so they can continue to claim to be the victims of world war II.

I can't speak for Yuri, but many posts that have been deleted by the mod took advantage of Kawamura's comments to start an all out J-bashing thread that accused Kawamura's own father of participating in butchering Nankingnites and denouncing Japanese institutions that have nothing to do with war crimes or historical revisionism, it was an all out mess.
0

bam_booFeb. 24, 2012 - 10:37AM JST

yuri,

as I know how you think about the Okinawan situation, your comments here appear kind of absurd to me and make me question your sincerity in regard to Okinawan topics.

Okinawans have been victims of Japanese aggression and know very well what kind of inhuman acts the Japanese military was able to commit.

Okinawans have rightfully fought for a proper representation of the their experiences during the war in Japanese textbooks and know better then anybody else in Japan about the self-serving and cynical way in which many Japanese (especially authorities and politicians) deal with the past.

As a consequence I would like to believe Okinawans could easily empathize with the feelings of the Nanking victims, but reading your comments here it seems you are only able to empathize with your own hurt feelings and that of your shall we call it 'kin'?

At least in that respect you seem to be 'very Japanese'.
-4

YuriOtaniFeb. 25, 2012 - 12:50AM JST

bam_boo, unlike the Chinese and others the people of Okinawa have forgiven for the past. When they tried to whitewash the conduct of the Imperial troops, it was attacked by us. However we did not go after all of the Japanese people just those who were changing the school books. When Takashi chan (call him that because he is acting childish) open his mouth it was not our entire nation talking. His post is not even on the prefecture level. Then the attacks started on ALL of the people of Japan. A lot of them really made me ANGRY! No matter what Japan does China and the bashers will not be happy. It is time we stopped trying.
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YuriOtaniFeb. 25, 2012 - 02:17AM JST

Last time, if China limited itself to attack the mayor with the big mouth, it would of been no problem. However they went after the entire country innocent and guilty alike. I do understand what you are saying. Again Japan is a free country unlike China and more and more the EU. The sister city attacked the entire sister city and not the mayor.

So what is you solution?
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oginomeFeb. 25, 2012 - 06:06AM JST

Last time, if China limited itself to attack the mayor with the big mouth, it would of been no problem. However they went after the entire country innocent and guilty alike. I do understand what you are saying. Again Japan is a free country unlike China and more and more the EU. The sister city attacked the entire sister city and not the mayor.

No, China's response is irrelevant. This is about Japan. It was the mayor of Nagoya, Kawamura, who made the statement in the first place. In a culture of denial and ignorance over war crimes, idiots like Kawamura come out with such hurtful garbage all the time, face little social pressure and show no remorse. Maybe the population of the sister city Nagoya, should have come forward and demanded that Kawamura be removed from office, since he represents them, and what he said was evil and inaccuarate? But no, they didn't. Their apathy says everything.

So what is you solution?

Simple; for Japan to face up to its past, start to engage in honest and sincere dialogue at all levels of society over the crimes that were committed and the evils of its expansionist programme, and DON'T WHITEWASH TEXTBOOKS. In a culture where the population are informed and educated over what happened, visits to the Yasukuni shrine and idiots who engage in massacre denial would face severe condemnation from the public. Just a few years ago, the Prime Minister of Japan proudly visited this disgusting shrine repeatedly.... and was loved amongst a large proportion of the Japanese public for doing so. Says everything, doesn't it?
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YuriOtaniFeb. 25, 2012 - 07:06AM JST

oginome, not going to happen as freedom of speech and religion are both guaranteed by our Constitution. Unlike Germany which could slide back into dictatorship with their draconian laws, we are FREE! The freedoms often make for unquiet times and difficulties with other countries. China or their minions will NEVER tell the people Of Japan what is acceptable or not acceptable to speak. Oh I disagree with the mayor but support his right to speak. I give up and China and their minions will not get their way.
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oginomeFeb. 25, 2012 - 08:02AM JST

oginome, not going to happen as freedom of speech and religion are both guaranteed by our Constitution. Unlike Germany which could slide back into dictatorship with their draconian laws, we are FREE! The freedoms often make for unquiet times and difficulties with other countries. China or their minions will NEVER tell the people Of Japan what is acceptable or not acceptable to speak. Oh I disagree with the mayor but support his right to speak. I give up and China and their minions will not get their way.

You really, really don't get it. You keep bringing China into this, but this has NOTHING to do with them, it's Japan's problem. You try to make this all about ego and not 'backing down in front of China'. Japan doesn't get to play this card when it hasn't even properly atoned for KILLING MILLIONS OF CHINESE. Why are you going on about 'freedom of speech'. I'm certainly not denying this degenerate the right to say what he wants. I belive in free speech. What is telling is the almost mainstream acceptance of these kind of hate and the lack of public outcry from his city and the rest of Japan when he came out with this hate filled bile. Yes, the Germans ban Holocaust denial, which is an enfringment on freedom of speech, but it's due to viligance so the Germans won't forget and will always remember the brutality and industrial scale murder perpetrated by their government in the 1940s. I think if any country is a candidate for regressing back into a dicatorship, it is Japan, not Germany, since the latter has faced up to its past and is determined to never repeat the same mistakes again, whereas the former... not so much. Since the Japanese aren't even aware or don't care about their country's murderous 1930s and 1940s excesses, how can you say they've even learned from their mistakes?

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'- George Santayana
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bam_booFeb. 25, 2012 - 12:11PM JST

So what is you solution?

Yuri, if you as Japanese are really interested in having a good friendly relation with your neighbors there's plenty you can do.

First of all sincerely respect the feelings of your neighbors.

If an elected politician of a major Japanese city, that happens to be the sister city of Nanjing, is able to say what he said and stays in his position this is very clearly a reason to hurt feelings.

It is a statement of indifference if not ignorance of the Japanese public towards the victims feelings.

Of course there's Japan-bashing on the side of Chinese nationalists (like there's China-bashing from Japanese nationalists), but Japan is feeding them with reason to do so and any kind of murky ambiguous attitude on the Japanese side is helping their nationalistic cause.

In my eyes the problem Japan has with its neighbors can be solved if it takes a clear stance towards the hidden racism and irrational nationalism within Japan.
The messages Japan has sent its neighbors were never without a certain ambiguousness, mostly because the nationalistic right-wing is so strong in Japan and always had enough support within the political cast (and partly also in the populace) to make any kind of japanese apology murky and equivocal.

If you want to have your neighbors understand your sincere and wholehearted apology do it in a way that there's no doubt.

To give you an idea about what this could mean take a look at how the German chancellor Willy Brandt acted in 1970 to express the remorse of the German nation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warschauer_Kniefall

And please note, Willy Brandt was in the resistance agains the Nazis and had absolutely no personal responsibility for what the Nazis did.

Moderator: Germany is not relevant to this discussion.