Russia critical of Maehara's remarks on 4 disputed islands

Tuesday 20th October, 02:02 AM JST

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Klein2 at 12:28 AM JST - 21st October

JayJay, when someone takes your twinkie and says they will let you have half of it back if you are nice, I wonder if you will be so cold and pragmatic.

I happen to agree that what will eventually happen is a compromise, and realistically, it should proceed like this. Russia: We are very sorry we took these. Our Soviet grandfathers were really dorks to do that. Japan: Yeah, well there is the BAM thing too. That sucked. Russia: Yeah, well about that, we had this Stalin thing.. Japan: Ok I get it, we know about that. Don't sweat that. Now about the islands... Russia: Yeah. Well, you aren't getting them all. Japan: Hmm. Russia: Look. We will move all of our people to the most distant island and let you just have the other three. But let's get this war thing over with, and let's get these places developed so everyone is better off. You guys are closer, and all, so maybe we can just move ahead. Japan: OK, so it is your bad, and we get three islands. Look, if you want to get things developed throw in some port facility access and investment things with Sakhalin. Russia: Yeah ok. But we keep the oil. Japan: Give us at least a quarter of the oil. Russia: Yeah ok. Let's sign this.

Realistically, Japan does not want to deal with the Russian settler problems and all the rest. Russia can't develop the islands. It is a huge pain. My point in posts above is saying that Japan is entitled to insist on its rights here. Whether it does or not is a choice for Japan's leaders.

Marushka, you show all the sympathy for the Japanese point of view that one would expect you to show. Russia will never be a great nation until is shows that it can be magnanimous and grateful.
marushka at 12:39 AM JST - 21st October

Klein2: during this dialogue will both sides drink sake or vodka? as good drinks help to resolve all problems:) or we have to prepare to war, as per YuriOtani? regarding " great nation" please don’t use too sophisticated adjectives, which are meaningless
Klein2 at 12:42 AM JST - 21st October

"Right and wrong don't factor in here."

Oh boy Jay. There is a classic. If you want to be all REALPOLITIK, why don't you consider that if Japan does not ask for all four, it will get nothing? In fact, Hatoyama asking for four is exactly what Japan SHOULD be doing if it expects to get two, right? Or is your idea that Hatoyama should go in asking for two, which would get his head handed to him politically at home and encourage the Russians to split the difference and offer one? Some REALPOLITIK there. It is neither real nor politik.

Just a shout out to Smith and other map-lookers. Have a look at them on Googlemaps. It is an eye opener. Kunashiri has got some weird stuff being built on it, and it appears that there are a lot of people living there, working in extraction industries.
JayJayE at 01:27 AM JST - 21st October

Sorry Klein2, just spitting it like it is. Right and wrong doesn't matter, only position. Of course I believe in right and wrong, but unless I'm in a position to enforce it, it means nothing.

And if Japan doesn't get all four, and gets nothing, unfortunately that's a very real possibility given Russia holds all the cards.

And yes, I suspect Japan doesn't want to deal with the settler problems though morally they should and in the world eye that draws sympathy if handled right, ie a stronger position.

And I suspect both sides are really fighting over fish stocks. Resources. As always. This is how the world works.

Entitled? We're all entitled to human rights, so says the UN, but not everyone gets them.

And yes I am cold, not in my heart, but in my head with dealing with reality. It either works or it doesn't.

I'm not at all saying on a emotional level I like it, but that's how it is. If you don't like it, you have to get yourself in a strong position and change it. That means power.

Now there are many kinds of power, not just the violent kind. Ghandi, Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King all succeeded because of strong positions. Just saying something's wrong changes nothing.

Again, Japan needs to assess it's position and what it's can do with it. And think of how to strengthen it.

Anyone wondering what I'm on about read Sun Tzu's Art of War.
YuriOtani at 01:43 AM JST - 21st October

Japans mistake was helping Russia after the breakup of the Soviet Union. If nothing was done Siberia would of come under China's influence and we would of gotten our islands back. Not just the 4 small islands but all of them, but Japan wanted to help out the starving Russians and promote world peace at the costs of their own interests. Am positive Russia will steal Japans investments in Sakhalin. Do not think Japan is getting any oil at all. What a waste of time, as I always say until the Russians play fair Japan has no reason to deal with them at all. Let them stew in their raw materials and let China look towards the rapid depopulation of Siberia and dream. Japan is not a threat to Russia and their hard line tactics are not making friends.
sdf_crew_member at 02:33 PM JST - 21st October

Japans mistake was helping Russia after the breakup of the Soviet Union. If nothing was done Siberia would of come under China's influence and we would of gotten our islands back.

Oh, that's really fascinating! What Japan had done to "protect" the "starving" Russian Siberia from "evil Chinese"? Selling second-hand cars or buying fish and wood?? I wouldn't call it "help" it's just a trade.

I guess Japan won't get any islands back. The time when Russia gave real things for a pat on the back is over, live with it.

Japan is not a threat to Russia and their hard line tactics are not making friends.

It's easy to reverse Japan and Russia with no meaning change. As to "friend countries" I'd like to see one such a rare...
spudman at 02:56 PM JST - 21st October

Japan should not be punished forever for the war. Russia entered it in the last days without provocation.

Actually Russia were involved before Japan was. Japan joined an axis to fight against Russia and others so Yuri's revisionism is not factually correct. Were Russia late to join in the attack against Japan yes but Russia was fighting on it's eastern front against Japanese forces before the bombing of Hiroshima.

Here are the facts * The key points of the Potsdam demands and the Allied final acceptance: The Potsdam proclamation was silent on the Emperor. The agreement stated that the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government shall be subordinate to the Allied Supreme Commander. * Territory will be occupied until proof that war making power is destroyed. [b]* Japan was limited to the four home islands and such minor islands as we determine. The Yalta agreement handed the Kuril islands to the Soviet union for entering the war against Japan.[/b] * Japanese military forces shall be disarmed and returned to peaceful and productive lives. * Stern justice to war criminals ; human rights shall be established. * Permission for industry and world trade, but not to re-arm. * Allies to withdraw when objectives are accomplished and a freely expressed, peacefully inclined government is in place. * Unconditional surrender or prompt and utter destruction.

The imperial family, government and military leaders travel to remote military units to assure that acceptance was the will of the Emperor. Japanese concern about the willingness of their military to lay down their arms before death, plus the suddenness of acceptance on an Allied military preparing for invasion, both act to postpone the signing of the unconditional surrender by two weeks while members of the imperial family fan out to assure regional military leaders it was the emperor's wish for them to stop fighting.

14Aug45. Japan accepts the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration and agrees to surrender.
JayJayE at 02:00 AM JST - 22nd October

sdfcrewmember- Exactly. There are no "friends" among nations. Only "allies". Ones who co-operate because it suits them.

People need to get rid of this notion that nations are like people. They aren't. Look at the UK and the US once enemies now "allies". Look at the US and Russia, once "allies" now (and I still think now) enemies.

There is no friendship among nations, only shared national interest.

Nations are more like corporations, which is not exactly good.
slizzzer at 01:45 PM JST - 23rd October

Russia will return the islands to Japan the same day the Chinese withdraw from Tibet.
marushka at 05:02 PM JST - 23rd October

slizzer: so in other words it means " never"?
YuriOtani at 04:51 AM JST - 24th October

Russia will return the islands or there will never be a peace treaty with Japan. There is nothing that Russia can do to force a peace treaty. There is nothing that Russia can do to force Japan to trade with them. Perhaps Japan can deal with the next government, the one that will follow the break up of Russia. This time we have to be sure and let the central government fail.
JayJayE at 05:32 AM JST - 25th October

What makes anyone think Russia wants a peace treaty? They're doing fine out of this. Break up of Russia, into what? And when will that be? Trade? If Russia needs to trade they would be knocking on Japan's doors, like nation's do with China now.

We? Who's we? Japan? Japan is a nation, not a person. And if nations let their own people suffer (which they do, check the homeless in Japan) what makes anyone think they give a damn about the feelings about any of you unless it gets them votes or suits them?
amerijap at 08:24 AM JST - 26th October

demanding Russia return the four islands it seized at the end of World War II as it is ‘‘illegal occupation.’’

Technically, they declared war against Japan in an early August--a few days before Japan officially surrendered to the Allied Powers. The end of WWII brought peace and democracy to Japan, but the world was setting the stage for the Cold War. Russia also considered Japan as an enemy during the Cold War period, due to her alliance with the US. The JP government would not consider the Cold War period as their wartime, but the Russia, the US, and China do. And, Japan surrendered to the AP in WWII --not Russia.
BigInJapan at 01:03 AM JST - 27th October

Russia did sneakily enter the war while Japan was losing and did terrible things, with no fight back. True.

You mean, the second time? The Soviets and Japan has already fought a war in the beginning of the wwii that Japan lost, too. Japan was constantly block one whole army in the East for the Soviets while they would have needed it against the Germans.

But I dont understand why such a peaceful nation as Japan without an army has one of the strongest navies in the Pacific and has territory dispute with all the neighbors constantly in the last 60+ years.
BigInJapan at 01:06 AM JST - 27th October

Russia will return the islands to Japan the same day the Chinese withdraw from Tibet.

And Texas and California goes back to Mexico or Spain.