S Korea, China blast Japan over Yasukuni visits

“The Yasukuni shrine is a place that glorifies war and enshrines war criminals,” foreign ministry spokesman Cho Tai-Young told reporters."

Lying about a place doesn't make it true, I've been there and found it to be a great. Only people that have a problem with it are the ones that have never been there and who fall for the same old lies.

Do any of you take as a fact something that a politician says? haha

Koreans need to be honest about their role in WII fighting on Japan's side against the allies. Why do they think there are Koreans enshrined there as well? And Chinese need to recognize that their anti-Japan education and whining about WWII does NOT justify what they are doing to their neighbors in trying to take control of the South and East China Seas. The more China acts like a belligerent bully the less could care about their WWII whining.

So how does china and Korea know exactly who's being prayed to ?? Are they arrogant enough to demand that 2.5 million good souls should be ignored over 14 bad ones ??? I think the politicians have it right those two countries can piss off !

Crazed in Japan good post and good point. Beautiful shrine it was too.

Yes, think about the other countries for the two seconds it takes to say 'mind your own business.'

crazed I agree 100% Its is akin to if people blasted the US president for visiting Arlington Cemetery in the states because of the bad actions of a few of the soldiers during Vietnam or Iraq. They have every right to go there and pray and pay their respects to the honored dead.

Well said crazed and simon didnt see it from that perspective yet.

small things can lead to huge consequences. These visits, the Senkakus and Takeshima, the ongoing row over comfort women, historical revisionism on all sides etc could all still spill over into much more serious conflict in the Far East.

Is there advantage for Japan to improve relations with South Korea, other than North Korea issue? Maybe it's better for Japan to distance themselves from continuous South Korea demands from WWII, which the issue was settled in 1965, but still wants to renegotiate for more money. It's not worth much for Japan to improve relations, and maybe this is exactly what South Korea deserves. The hostile relations between the two countries is the best they could do.

Lying about a place doesn't make it true,

How does this constitute a lie?

“The Yasukuni shrine is a place that glorifies war and enshrines war criminals,” foreign ministry spokesman Cho Tai-Young told reporters."

Its so sad playing the role of the victim your entire life.

So how does china and Korea know exactly who's being prayed to ?? Are they arrogant enough to demand that 2.5 million good souls should be ignored over 14 bad ones ??? I think the politicians have it right those two countries can piss off !

Come on here, it's thinking like this that just makes the problem worse. The symbolism involved is the problem not the act of their prayers.

Would you pray at a shrine that had interred Hitler's "remains" (I know Yasukuni doesnt actually have any remains there it's for discussions sake that I ask the question) along with the rest of the war dead of ONLY the German Army?

Symbolism is very important to many people here in Asia including Japan, China, and Korea. And while the lawmakers who visited the shrine make the argument to justify their going to Yasukuni that this is a Japanese discussion or problem, they are doing so knowing fully well that their "symbolic" gestures are going to piss off the very countries that they have such bad blood with on issues related to WWII.

Just officials getting media coverage at home.

SK officials complain much more about these shrine visits than the Cheonan sinking and the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island. Odd priorities.

And if China hopes to be a superpower, it needs to lose this 'victim' image.

I think SK should be more concerned with their neighbor to the north than Japan. Yes Japan held a heavy hand on Korea since 1905 and forced many to fight for them in WW2 and the whole comfort woman issue during that period is still an issue. But there were Korean guards who were just as brutal to allied and Chinese POWs as were the Japanese.

NK has shelled and killed SK residents on an island, and sunk a SK warship. Yet they get in a tizzy about a foreign leader who goes to a shrine in their own country. I say they need to focus more on the here and now, and let Japan alone on this one.

Politicians only give a hoot about votes and are thus compelled to comment on something they themselves probably could not give a monkeys uncle about. Lets have some real news about something worth reading than this Governmental brainwashing propaganda.

i don't see why they just don't remove the war criminals. then they would have nothing to complain about.

Tea calling the kettle black ..Both the countries complaining have done so many atrocities themselves in the past...I don't see Japan telling them who they should and shouldn't pray to. They need to keep their noses out of Japan's rituals in honoring their dead. It is so arrogant of them to even suggest that people avoid that shrine. What about their own inhumane acts of aggression?? What do you think they would do or say if say another country told them what to do?? Falls on deaf ears I'm sure. It's the past, they play the victim when it suits political agendas . They are too stupid to see that every time they open their mouths that all this does is show how Japan once again is being targeted by the bullies next door.

The Chinese and Koreans promise to no longer honor their millions of war dead then Japan will do so in return.

OssanAmerica: Koreans need to be honest about their role in WII fighting on Japan's side against the allies. Why do they think there are Koreans enshrined there as well?

Wow, that has got to be the most insensitive thing I've ever heard. Koreans who were FORCED to fight for Japan because Japan invaded and occupied Korea. I don't think they'd be happy about that, and rightly so.

Matthew Simon: crazed I agree 100% Its is akin to if people blasted the US president for visiting Arlington Cemetery in the states because of the bad actions of a few of the soldiers during Vietnam or Iraq. They have every right to go there and pray and pay their respects to the honored dead.

It's akin to but not the same because these American monuments are not presenting it in a manner of glorification of these soldiers and/or the glorification of the war they fought in. All the memorials in America and the American consciousness in general acknowledges the terrible things that happened in these wars. In Yasukuni, it's not a place officially established by the government. It's a religious place that the government has no involvement in. It's backers and supporters are ultra-nationalist revisionists who paint Japan as a victim in WWII. It's more akin to the president going to the Westboro Baptist Church (for those who don't know, they're the church that says "God Hates Fags") to pray for those who died in a war or tragedy. Good action, wrong place.

Now Korea and China aren't totally blameless in this who situation now. It feels almost as any apology the Japanese government could give wouldn't be good enough. But their is legitimacy to their claim to at least not visit such a rightfully controversial shrine.

And it feels like everyone here who is supporting the visits to Yasukuni shrine is only doing it because they like Japan and don't like South Korea and China. Look at it from a neutral perspective outside of the international scope. The majority of my college-educated, young Japanese friends think Yasukuni is a joke and should not be patronized by politicians, especially 168 at one time. The rest don't care one way or the other but would rather see better relations with Japan's neighbors. These visits aren't necessary and are plainly provocative. The only reason they go (besides pissing off China and South Korea) is to garner more support for ultra-nationalists. So don't defend these guys.

The fact that so many lawmakers visit Yasukuni tells us where their sentiments lie. They have never overcome their nationalist past. If Japan were truly recalcitrant, they might add a memorial to the victims of Japan's aggression there as well, to show their neighbors it's not all about Japan's losses.

But I think it is no accident the remains of war criminals - and not just those successfully convicted - are interred there like gods or saints. Until these old nationalists finally become extinct, Japan will never move forward with her neighbors.

It's a superstitious thing, not just political. They believe if the ancestors are prayed to, then Japan will continue to be a powerful country because they are honoring their past.

Japan is like a child they only go there because other countries say not too.

Wow, that has got to be the most insensitive thing I've ever heard. Koreans who were FORCED to fight for Japan because Japan invaded and occupied Korea. I don't think they'd be happy about that, and rightly so.

Ossan is absolutely correct. Japan annexed Korea without force and the recruitment of soldiers were done through volunteering where the applicants exceeded the quota as much as 60 times in some years.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/朝鮮人日本兵

There is nothing insensitive about pure facts.

OssanAmerica: Koreans need to be honest about their role in WII fighting on Japan's side against the allies. Why do they think there are Koreans enshrined there as well?

There are also Okinawan's enshrined there that don't want to be there either and have made countless requests to the officials to have their spouses or relatives removed and Yasukuni adamantly refused.

Yasukuni is a problem for many Okinawan people as well as nearly all if not all of the girls that served as nurses during the battle of Okinawa are enshrined there too, many if not most, against their families will too!

FYI, did people know that there are also 3 British enshrined at Yasukuni too? From the Russian-Japanese war.

http://www.warbirdforum.com/yasukuni.htm

(In English)

From the link Yubaru posted which is a translation from the Yasukuni Shrine Website:

Moreover, there were those who gave up their lives after the end of the Great East Asian War, taking upon themselves the responsibility for the war. There were also 1,068 "Martyrs of Showa" who were cruelly and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the Allied forces (United States, England, the Netherlands, China and others). These martyrs are also the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja.... The peace and prosperity of Japan today is the fruit of the noble work of the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja.

If that doesn't show how insensitive visiting Yasukuni Shrine, I don't know what is.

OrangeXenon54Apr. 24, 2013 - 09:19AM JST "OssanAmerica: Koreans need to be honest about their role in WII fighting on Japan's side against the allies. Why do they think there are Koreans enshrined there as well?"

Wow, that has got to be the most insensitive thing I've ever heard. Koreans who were FORCED to fight for Japan >because Japan invaded and occupied Korea. I don't think they'd be happy about that, and rightly so.

It sounds insensitive to you because you are unaware of the historical facts and accept Korean anti-Japanese propaganda at face value. Japan never invaded Korea. At least not since the 1500s. Japan had troops in Korea after the Russo-Japanese War of 1904/05 in which Russia was the first to land troops on the Korean Peninsula. Russia had remained in Manchuria after the 1900 Boxer Rebellion and their goal of taking the Korean Peninsula brought them to war with Japan, which was supported by the US, UK and even Germany. Japan did NOT invade Korea in 1910, they annexed it. There is no Invasion or Battle between Japanese and Koreans troops leading to the colonization from 1910-1945. Secondly, 240,000 Koreans served in the Imperial Japanese Armed Forces. They volunteered willingly because the pay was good and they were Japanese citizens. They were NOT "forced" into service since the number far exceeded recruitment quotas which did not even go into effect until 1944 a year before Japan's defeat. These 240,000 Korean men made use of the Comfort Women System at a discount rate, less than the Japanese soldiers. Koreans were known for their brutality towards allied POWS and a number of them were tried as Class-B War Criminals at the Tokyo Trials. That all the Koreans who served the Japanese Empire in WWII were "forced to do so" is a fallacy that simply cannot be supported by the facts, yet it is repeated by Koreans who have whitewashed their role in WII while constantly harping on Japan as a scapegoat for everything.

OrangeXenon54Apr. 24, 2013 - 10:13AM JST From the link Yubaru posted which is a translation from the Yasukuni Shrine Website:

Moreover, there were those who gave up their lives after the end of the Great East Asian War, taking upon >themselves the responsibility for the war. There were also 1,068 "Martyrs of Showa" who were cruelly and unjustly >tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the Allied forces (United States, England, the Netherlands, China and >others). These martyrs are also the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja.... The peace and prosperity of Japan today is the fruit of >the noble work of the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja.

If that doesn't show how insensitive visiting Yasukuni Shrine, I don't know what is.

I don't think you do. Are you arguing that 1068 names out of 2400000 names makes this some kind of taboo place, even after reading about the women and children enshrined there? As for the War Crimes Tribunals being a sham, a number of US attorneys both military and civilians felt the same way at the time, as well as the judge from India. So that's hardly a unique concept since the concept of law and justice itself questions the victors' right to pass judgment on the defeated. It's also a known fact that apart from the Class A criminals a large number of high ranking Japanese non-military politicians were tried and convicted even though there existed ample evidence that they were against starting a war. This was the result of the American public's need to see a good number of the enemy leaders prosecuted and convicted, a political motive rather than a judicial one. So what are we concerned about, the 14 Class-A criminals? Does 14 out of 2400000 bother you?

Ossan: "Koreans need to be honest about their role"

Why is it that your main argument for why Japanese need to be honest about history that Koreans need to be? You CONSTANTLY go off topic and talk about everything from Koreans fighting for the Japanese in WWII to how all of the woes of Asia are the result of Korean prostitutes, but never admit Japan does not own up to its past or that the apologies they've made are not genuinde, as evidenced by actions like visiting Yasukuni for the SOLE purpose of nationalism.

Yubaru: "FYI, did people know that there are also 3 British enshrined at Yasukuni too? From the Russian-Japanese war."

Don't mention that to the wingers -- they'd probably actually suggest names be removed for a change.

The Yasukuni shrine is a place that glorifies war and enshrines war criminals

It is impossible to criticize a shrine without knowing the religion. Many of the Shinto Shrines are built to avoid Tatari. A Tatari is a disaster caused by soul of dead people. There are tens of thousands of Tenmangu shrines in Japan which is dedicated to Sugawara no Michizane. When he died in 903, a lot of disasters occurred in Japan. So, people back in those days built Tenmangu Shrines and disasters ended. There are a lot of shrines dedicated to Taira no Masakado. When he was killed in 940, a lot of disasters occurred. So, people made shrines and the disasters ended.

You may think it ridiculous, but that is what the religion is all about. Yasukini shrine is built to avoid Tatari by the souls of dead soldiers. "Rest in peace and do not wake up to cause Tatari."

Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of SK and China trying to tell us what we can and can't do in our OWN country! Instead of acting like a bunch of children who are stuck in the past think about the present and the future and the potential threats that lie ahead! Or will SK be more occupied about WW2 while getting shelled by NK?

The problem with Yasukuni is not that it enshrines war criminals. The problem is that the museum area is a sickening, alternate reality that is still promoting the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity fascist Sphere. They should separate the right-wing Nanjing denial crap from the shrine or I'm afraid the pols are rightfully guilty-by-association.

And BTW referencing the Japanese wikipedia on issues like this is pointless. The netouyo run web pages that organize right-wingers to edit sensitive wikipedia articles to promote their fascist viewpoints.

@OssanAmerica Going to a place and participating in rituals that occur there is supporting it. When you support something, you acknowledge all of that institution's beliefs. If someone supported the belief that war criminals (let's not get into the whole, fake "sham trial" excuse that holds to water and exonerate these men of the terrible things they did) were "Martyrs of Showa" and that their actions somehow made Japan a better place, then I would definitely be angry. How can you deny that fact? So the pot (Korea) calling the kettle (Japan) black is bad, but it's also the kettle calling the pot black, too.

@conchobar EXACTLY!!! This is exactly the point. The museum is atrocious. And yeah, the netouyo definitely have their hands in a lot of those wiki pages.

So what are we concerned about, the 14 Class-A criminals? Does 14 out of 2400000 bother you?

So to use your logic then, it's a numbers game and nothing else.

If this is your argument then you dont understand the reasoning behind the protesting, and btw, it's not just about the 14 either, it's about what Yasukuni SYMBOLIZES to the Koreans and Chinese people.

Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of SK and China trying to tell us what we can and can't do in our OWN country! Instead of acting like a bunch of children who are stuck in the past think about the present and the future and the potential threats that lie ahead! Or will SK be more occupied about WW2 while getting shelled by NK?

Unlike Japan acting like an adult? I don't think so, Japan is just as bad, but since Japanese would prefer to brush it all under the table and not face up to the realities of the world, NOTHING will change for the better.

These politicians are just as bad for acting like children and thumbing their noses at Korea and China and then have people like you defend them for their insensitive behavior.

Who's the child here?

Japanese people. Travel around Asia to pop open your eyes and see how much disgust are spoken against Japan behind closed doors. Don't talk to the younger ignorant population. They are a useless barometer of genuine sentiments towards Japan since they have no memories and cannot fathom the unimaginable losses of their ancestors at the hand of Imperial Japan. Talk to those still alive and have memories of Imperial Japan, at least from their children if not the original survivors of Japanese torture and abuse. THEN you will understand why people esp in China and Korea are so upset. They are all READY TO MOVE ON, but Japan constantly irritate them with bad memories by trying to revive the dead Tojo!

Frankly if not for US in the Pacific, Japan will have sunk to the bottom of the ocean already. A humble nation doesn't make endless provocations and show fake contrition no matter how many times Japan apologize it is seen as insincere cuz actions speaks louder than words!

Wow this thread is like the US airshow one, LOTs of people with revised views of things, doesnt bode well for the future if this continues!

Come on folks, yasukuni is god forsaken place, ALL those politicians are there for all the WRONG reasons, they are NOT there praying for the average Tanaka-san or Suzuki-san.

And the place does glorify war! Japan continues to mortgage its own future each time groups of politicians make the trip there.

And for those who think Koreans were banging down doors to join the IJA..........WTF! Get a clue! In those days Koreans didnt exactly have many choices in life, sadly many had to make choices under much duress, bad choices, unfortunate choices! The is is the same for all those who say women lined up to be sex slaves..................NUTS

I dont see any good coming of all this whitewashing of history, glad I am not so young any more & have no kids who are going to end up in the thick of the next BIG ONE, guess mankind will never learn

Don't talk to the younger ignorant population. They are a useless barometer of genuine sentiments towards Japan since they have no memories and cannot fathom the unimaginable losses of their ancestors at the hand of Imperial Japan.

And yet, the young generations are the future of Asia so, hopefully, the past grievances still nursed by the older generations who have never been able to let go will be left in the past. Guess what, many of those belonging to the old generations who still speak with "disgust against Japan behind closed doors" have also been victims of their governments' propaganda about the lack of apologies, etc. from Japan.) Hopefully, such sentiments might one day be really part of the past - a "place" where they belong. And, eventually, there might be a bright spot in the future of Asia.

CH3CHO: "You may think it ridiculous, but that is what the religion is all about. Yasukini shrine is built to avoid Tatari by the souls of dead soldiers. "Rest in peace and do not wake up to cause Tatari.""

What I think is ridiculous is the idea these politicians, in 2013 and not some 1100 years ago when extreme superstition was the norm, are going to there to pray to 'avoid disaster' when in reality they are going with the very high potential of KNOWINGLY inviting it.

Ossan: "So what are we concerned about, the 14 Class-A criminals? Does 14 out of 2400000 bother you?"

Hitler was only one of millions and millions of Germans (or Germanic people), so you going to shrug and say it doesn't matter if he's praised among war dead?

KariHaruka: "Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of SK and China trying to tell us what we can and can't do in our OWN country!"

What they're telling you is that they are sick and tired of you denying what you did in THEIRS.

smithinjapan

What I think is ridiculous is the idea these politicians, in 2013 and not some 1100 years ago when extreme superstition was the norm, are going to there to pray to 'avoid disaster'

I support the freedom of religion. When you call a religion a superstition, they will call your religion a superstition. What I know for sure is that you criticize the issue with no knowledge of Shintoism.

By continuing to honor their war dead - men who dies in the name of imperialist expansion and racial domination of Asia - Japan is essentially denying they were wrong to wage war in teh first place. It reinforces their false sense of victimhood: "We were just minding our own business when the Americans came along and dropped an atom bomb on us!"

The occupying authorities shoulder some blame. They should have disposed of the war criminals remains and bulldozed Yasukuni and replaced it with a monument to the victims of Japanese aggression.

@JaneMApr. 24, 2013 - 12:38PM JST

Don't talk to the younger ignorant population. They are a useless barometer of genuine sentiments towards Japan since they have no memories and cannot fathom the unimaginable losses of their ancestors at the hand of Imperial Japan.

And yet, the young generations are the future of Asia so, hopefully, the past grievances still nursed by the older generations who have never been able to let go will be left in the past. Guess what, many of those belonging to the old generations who still speak with "disgust against Japan behind closed doors" have also been victims of their governments' propaganda about the lack of apologies, etc. from Japan.) Hopefully, such sentiments might one day be really part of the past - a "place" where they belong. And, eventually, there might be a bright spot in the future of Asia.

Here is the problem. Japan is practising what China do with the 'Eraser' whitewashing Tianamen Square 1989. See, I am fair to state a factual event. Japan is trying to continue 'business as usual' visiting the Yasukuni Shrine till all the older war generations and their immediate children dies off, so nobody remember.

So what's next? Their grandchildren, all brought up in the internet era playing Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo etc, Call To Duty and so forth, THEY HAVE NO FEELINGS, they cannot relate to the horrors their ancestors suffered. Just like the newer generations of Post Tianamen childrens of China, they don't feel the horror of that day that killed thousands of their countrymen. So Japan can go on her merry ways thumbing her nose at China and Korea because the younger leaders just don't relate as much to the war atrocities as their ancestors.

How to sensitize these newer generations of Asians? I don't know except I hope unbiased websites like Wikipedia with No Warning of lack of neutrality is posted on that article, that is a good place for them to learn factual events that had occured unvarnished. Not footnotes, but tell the story exactly as it is, no whitewashing which is favorite tricks of government manipulations of all dishonest countries that are not willing to face the ugly truth head on.

Somebody should make a free Indie movie or something that is an Oscar winning show to remind the newer generations so they can make an informed opinion about Japan, not just the glitz, the sushi, or being impressed by their culture alone.

In any society, eastern or western, people agree those who fight and protect their country/ family are heros and those who intrude and kill/ rape others' country/ family are criminals; and suppose some people fight inside their own country/ family, then they could be called politician.

Frankly if not for US in the Pacific, Japan will have sunk to the bottom of the ocean already. A humble nation doesn't make endless provocations and show fake contrition no matter how many times Japan apologize it is seen as insincere cuz actions speaks louder than words!

Spot on...! It all stems from the fact that Japan doesn't teach accurate history (if at all), at least as far as it involves them and acts of brutality. But They all seem to remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki, matter of fact, they built memorials to honor themselves!

I've even heard people ask, which happened first, Perl Harbor or Hiroshima, honestly unsure of the order in which these earth moving events occurred. A case of Selective Amnesia... Big Time!

How about following Germany's lead and building some memorials to the victims of YOUR war machine...? You could start with a Unit 731 Memorial, then a Nanking (360,000 people killed), then you could do one for comfort women, then pow's, slave labor, oh how about the korea slave laborers, who were forced to work in Nagasaki and died when the bomb was dropped...? Oh, I could go on and on, this is why critical thinking is so important!

And while on the subject of the bombs being dropped, you could throw in some REAL history Lessons about how The U.S. Dropped Leaflets, plastered hundreds of thousands of leaflets all over Hiroshima and Nagasaki for weeks before, Telling people to flee those areas, because something really bad was going to happen... Then you could tell them how YOUR Secret Police Kempeitai went around collecting all those leaflets... Oh, but I digress...

Tony Ew, I do not know why young Japanese should feel "guilt" over what happened before they were born and they are not responsible for. Likewise, I do not know why young Koreans need to feel victimized for what happened before they were born and they did not experience. Compensation issues were all settled by treaties decades ago. Japan gave economic aids to Asian countries for their growth. WW2 is history.

Japanese students learn WW2 history pretty well. I think they learn much better than Chinese or Koreans who learn only biased version of history. You suggest an indies film for WW2? I think WW2 is too complicated for a 2 or 3 hour movie, unless you only know too simplified version of WW2. Most Chinese and Koreans get upset when they come to know the true history of WW2.

By the way, which country are you from, China, or Korea?

Moreover, there were those who gave up their lives after the end of the Great East Asian War, taking upon themselves the responsibility for the war. There were also 1,068 "Martyrs of Showa" who were cruelly and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the Allied forces (United States, England, the Netherlands, China and others). These martyrs are also the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja.... The peace and prosperity of Japan today is the fruit of the noble work of the Kami of Yasukuni Jinja.

The idea that the whole Nuremberg/Tokyo trials is, if not quite a sham, or at least not so much as say the "Moscow Trials", is not up to modern or even contemporary legal standard is not unique to Japan.

Its good that our allie the American's don't take offense to visits from our politicians, cause those who planned the Pearl Harbour bombing is also praised in Yasukuni.

CH3CHO: "I support the freedom of religion. When you call a religion a superstition, they will call your religion a superstition. What I know for sure is that you criticize the issue with no knowledge of Shintoism."

I know quite a lot about Shintoism, actually, as well I also know if you asked these politicians if they believe and practice the religion you'd be hard-pressed to find ONE, but you'd probably find quite a few who had Shinto and Christian-style wedding ceremonies and have money set aside for a Buddhist funeral.

They're not going there to practice religion any more than smoking a cigarette is a sacred cleansing ritual. They are going there ONLY because it's the sole thing they can do to stick it to their neighbours.

"I do not know why young Japanese should feel "guilt" over what happened before they were born and they are not responsible for."

They SHOULDN'T feel any guilt over what was done by Japan at the time, but they should not be denied the knowledge under the pretense of 'forward thinking', either.

"Japanese students learn WW2 history pretty well. I think they learn much better than Chinese or Koreans who learn only biased version of history."

BS. They learn a whole lot about being the victim, and even suggest their aggression in the past was a foregone conclusion, that it was necessary, and/or BENEFITTED neighbouring countries, but once you are finished reading the paragraph that says 'unfortunate things happened' you get to the hundred page chapter on Hiroshima.

"By the way, which country are you from, China, or Korea?"

THIS is your argument? Who says Tony is from either? Maybe he's from the US, or Australia. Maybe he's from Singapore. Or maybe, and cover your eyes, he might be from JAPAN!

conchobar: "And BTW referencing the Japanese wikipedia on issues like this is pointless. The netouyo run web pages that organize right-wingers to edit sensitive wikipedia articles to promote their fascist viewpoints."

Exactly. A simple method of indicating this kind of page is whether it is available to be 'edited' or not, and I haven't seen one that's not. What's worse is that the netuyo bash Chinese and Koreans for their net content -- yet another example of the mentality that brings this kind of action out in Japan's neighbours.

smithinjapan

I know quite a lot about Shintoism,

but you'd probably find quite a few who had Shinto and Christian-style wedding ceremonies and have money set aside for a Buddhist funeral.

That shows you lack the basic understanding fo Shintoism.

but once you are finished reading the paragraph that says 'unfortunate things happened' you get to the hundred page chapter on Hiroshima.

Will you stop writing lies here? It may be impolite to call a spade a spade, but you are just giving misinformation to incite hate.

CH3CHO: "That shows you lack the basic understanding fo Shintoism."

Ummm... no... it shows how vapid a lot of people's religious beliefs here are.

"Will you stop writing lies here? It may be impolite to call a spade a spade, but you are just giving misinformation to incite hate."

If I am, pot meet kettle. The one paragraph vs 100 pages is an obvious exaggeration, since you can't see it, but the rest is true. I have met dozens of Japanese who will try and justify atrocities, if the topic comes up, by saying "We gave Taiwan its modern education system (and they love us)", and that, "bad things happened, but a lot of good came from it, too!". But ask them to point the pages which talk about sex slaves, and what happens. Ask them to point to the pages that talk about death marches, and atrocities ranging from South Korea to as far as India and remote islands in the Pacific. Ask them, even, to point to the section talking about the forced suicides in Okinawa. The look in their eyes when you do won't be talking about 'misinformation', it'll be either deer in headlights because they have no idea, or anger because they simply don't want to believe it.

"It may be impolite to call a spade a spade,"

Spade.

China and Korea need to join the rest of Us in the year 2013. The past is called the past for a reason. Every country has the right to pay their respects to the men and women who died for their country. Get over it. It was more than 60 years ago.

CH3CHO: "That shows you lack the basic understanding fo Shintoism."

Actually, you know what, I'll one-up my previous comment. All this shows for sure is that you have no valid retort for the facts. It's not a far cry from the "You don't understand the Japanese heart/soul because you are a foreigner" when there is no justification or logic to certain actions carried out here or by Japanese people in the past or present.

Heck, even I go to the local Shinto shrine on New Year's, toss a coin in the offering box, and buy a fortune slip -- and if it's good, I might even believe it. If it's bad, I just tie it to the closest tree branch.

I am 100% for freedom of religion, CH3CHO. To suggest I am not simply because I do not agree with the ethics or actions of politicians who are obviously not motivated by the religion you claim is the kind of 'inciting hate' you knee-jerked towards me in your post, as is the "Are you Chinese or Korean" 'answer' to Tony's comment. You're not a victim here, my friend.

Dennis: "The past is called the past for a reason."

And hiSTORY is called history. When you decide willingly to forget or not acknowledge it, it ceases to be in the minds of many, or worse yet alters for the brainwashed. An interesting paradox, if I may, is that you suggest Korea and China can forget the past so Japanese politicians can go and honor it.

"Get over it. It was more than 60 years ago."

So were the atomic bombings and the Holocaust, among many, many other things we should NEVER forget or allow people to worship.

smithinjapan

it'll be either deer in headlights because they have no idea, or anger because they simply don't want to believe it.

Thank you for letting us know of your stereotype of Japanese. So, you say every Japanese on earth either does not know about Japanese war crimes or gets angry when Japanese war crime is discussed. How many Japanese have you ever talked with on this subject? Prove that number is large enough to justify that categorical statement.

Sophisticated people do not make such a categorical statement based on prejudice to insult an entire ethnic group. Can't you quantify the statement by putting, "some of the Japanese I talked with" or something like that?

OssanAmerica,

Exactly which is why South Korea will never be accepted as an advanced developed nation until they are able to honestly face their history and role in WWII...

I wouldn't go this far. For one, how do you define "advanced" and "developed"? South Korea has one of the most vibrant consumer electronics sectors in the world, possesses an advanced space program, and is on course to become a global supplier of next-generation nuclear reactor technology.

Not only does the South Korean economy rank, based on a number of sources, anywhere from 15th to 12th place in the world in terms of purchasing power parity among some 200 other countries and ahead of places like Canada, Australia, and Sweden, but it also has the fastest and most extensive Internet infrastructure in Asia, if not the world.

Comprehensive railway system? Check. Clean drinking water? Check. Established health care system? Check. Comprehensive universal education? Check. Mature political system? Check.

Your definitions of "advanced" and "developed" are difficult to fathom, as is your apparent belief that the rest of the world shares them with you.

Second, you seem to be implying South Korea was somehow complicit in its own subjegation as a Japanese colony from 1910 to 1945. This seems a bit of a stretch by any estimate. Would you care to elaborate?

The enshrinement of war criminals has forever dishonored this site, The shrine dedicated to those who lost their lives while serving Japan, the war criminals there did not die during the war the died after the court found them guilty of thier crimes and gave them the death penalty. By them being in the shrine it makes a statement that they committed any crimes on behalf of the Emperor and Japan. This is why Hirohito officially ban going to the shrine after he found out that the war criminals had been secretly added. This is why Emperor Akihito also refuses to attend Yasukuni. So Korea and China see the Japanese lawmakers going there as "these men did nothing wrong they lost their life for doing what Japan wanted them to do".

CH3CHO: "Thank you for letting us know of your stereotype of Japanese. So, you say every Japanese on earth either does not know about Japanese war crimes or gets angry when Japanese war crime is discussed."

Who's distorting the facts now? I clearly said among dozens I have talked to, I never, ever, said all, while meanwhile you ask people who disagree with you about their nationality to try and undermine their arguments, claim people are inciting hate while you do exactly what you claim, then ask how many people I've talked to on the subject. The answer is, literally, hundreds. Some had no idea what happened. Some knew, but tried to alter the actual facts, some literally got angry and denied it or refused to talk about it. In any case I made it clear, and it was never me who brought it up in any case, that there is NOTHING for the common citizen to be ashamed of, and assuming the acts of the father, so to speak, should never leave the child ashamed or guilty by any sort of blame.

These politicians, on the other hand, are different.

"Sophisticated people do not make such a categorical statement based on prejudice to insult an entire ethnic group."

Like you asked Tony about his nationality or make regular statements about Koreans and Chinese? Seriously, how many times do you need to look up the idiom 'pot calling the kettle black' for it to register?

"Can't you quantify the statement by putting, "some of the Japanese I talked with" or something like that?"

And if you bother to take off the blinders you will see, as I have said, that I DID state that. True, I labelled a lot of politicians generally, when perhaps a few hundred didn't visit when these guys did, but politicians are leaders, and when a large number do something like they did you can generalize that it's bad all you like, as you do with... hmmm... where do we start:

"Taste the hegemony of China."

"Korea was a Japanese ally throughout WW2. Korea does not have the same qualification as China."

"They understand "the bitterness of China"."

"By the way, which country are you from, China, or Korea?"

" I do not know why young Koreans need to feel victimized for what happened before they were born and they did not experience. "

need I go on? That's only from the past day or so.

smithinjapan, let's make it clear.

it'll be either deer in headlights because they have no idea, or anger because they simply don't want to believe it.

What does this sentence mean? Why is it in the future tense? If you are talking about your experience with "dozens of Japanese", it should be in the past tense, shouldn't it? You are making a categorical statement on the Japanese, aren't you? "Sophisticated people do not make such a categorical statement based on prejudice to insult an entire ethnic group."

One thing that is flagrantly obvious ..... Japanese will never stop observing their religious practices and the communists and Koreans will never stop complaining about it.

See you all here next year posting the same stuff , and the year after that and so on ..... such is life I guess.

CH3CHO: ""Sophisticated people do not make such a categorical statement based on prejudice to insult an entire ethnic group.""

Says the guy who does it constantly towards Koreans and Chinese. I noticed you dodged my other questions as to your own generalizations, and yes, the question applies to said people -- the type of dozens I have spoken to, past OR present, not ALL Japanese by any means. Go to the sites where Japanese have stood up against such rightists and you'll see me saying as much, same as I said on threads where some brave Japanese stood up to the wingers protesting such things as the fact Korean dramas are more successful than Japanese, etc.

"You are making a categorical statement on the Japanese, aren't you?"

I'm not surprised you once again fail to read the comments and see the truth. You are misdirecting your own personal bias and anger in an attempt to justify the acts of a few politicians and your lack of defense for them. First it's "You know nothing about Shinto", then when I point out the fact that these politicians probably to not practice it and this is nothing but a snub towards China and Korea, you can only fall back on such weak and incorrect comments. Next it'll be the "if you don't like it, leave" bottom of the barrel argument.

I certainly DON'T like the fact that these politicians visit the shrine to snub their neighbours, nor do I like what the Koreans and Chinese do in response -- they are all simply tantamount to children lashing out, but at least the reaction of the latter nations is just that: a REACTION.

CH3CHO: "smithinjapan, let's make it clear."

Try to first do that by not cherry-picking comments and suggesting they are generalized towards all people when it clearly states: "...if the topic comes up," as in hypothetically. If it helps you, change "It'll" to "It'd (or "it would"). Hope that helps you.

Spot on...! It all stems from the fact that Japan doesn't teach accurate history (if at all), at least as far as it involves them and acts of brutality. But They all seem to remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki, matter of fact, they built memorials to honor themselves!

Not sure if you have ever been to the Hiroshima memorial but the Japanese make it clear that Japanese imperialism was the root cause of the war and the nuclear bombings...

Korea and China complaining about Japan is Old Hat at this point. I can sort of understand Korea being a bit Neurotic about Japan, but it has been nearly 70 years of peace, guys. Get with the program.

China has never gotten over that it got run over by external powers and does not have the diplomatic tools to deal with them if the CCP are any sign. it's pop culture definitely shows signs of this. Which I find a pity

smithinjapan

I noticed you dodged my other questions as to your own generalizations

In 4 of the 5 sentences you raised as examples, I was talking about the country, not about the people. In the remaining one, I said "I do not know why young Koreans need to feel victimized", which is a negative sentence and is not a generalization. Generalizing something bad on a people or an ethnic group should be avoided because many of them do not fall into that generalization. But a statement on the historical fact of a country like "Korea was a Japanese ally during WW2" is not a generalization. And as I remember, it was you who suggested that China endangers the state of Japan.

these politicians probably to not practice it

Shintoism is not a jealous religion. People can pay respect to as many gods as they want. As I stated before, I do not support Yasukuni, but I support freedom of religion.

the latter nations is just that: a REACTION.

You do not need to react to your neighbor when they go to church or shrine.

Okay, gang. Can we just accept a fundamental truth about this whole World War II business as far as Japan is concerned?

TRUTH: The war is indeed taught in Japanese schools. It's taught. Japan's colonial aspirations, Japan's invasion of China, Japan's colonization of Korea, the Philippines, et al., this stuff is all taught.

Don't just take my word for it. And for the love of Pete, please stop taking the word of a shocking number of self-appointed experts on all things Japanese who are very, very clearly clueless, and go find out for yourselves.

Get yourself into a Japanese junior high school or senior high school and ask the social studies teacher if you can peruse the history texts the students are using. I did. And guess what? All the issues mentioned above are taught. Period.

And if, upon taking a look at the texts, you still don't think it's taught, then you're just being obstinate and/or willfully ignorant.

Once again for the cheap seats:

THE HISTORY IS BEING TAUGHT.

What would it take for some of you here to believe it? Cut and pastes of the actual text as it's written? If need be, maybe that's what I'll do. In fact, I think it would be of tremendous help to this discussion for those of us who have access to this material to probably do just that in the coming weeks -- copy the text, word-for-word, where it addresses Japan's culpability during the war.

No, never mind translating it for the non-Japanese literate. Leave it in its original form so we aren't accused of white-washing it by the more conspiracy minded out there.

And then let's see how these discussions unfold.

I, for one, am more than a little fed up with posters coming here and proclaiming with the utmost confidence things that are patently wrong, particularly the issue of Japan not teaching its youth about the war. It's simply not true.

Enough of this crap, pardon my French.

The key issue with South Korea and China isn't so much that the history isn't being taught. It's that they don't feel Japan is wallowing deep enough in self-loathing over its role in the war.

Fair enough, since they were the victims, but seriously, how do you quantify just what constitutes enough contrition? Precisely how long does Japan have to feel remorseful? Because it seems the goal posts are fluid and every-moving. How much money would make China and South Korea feel better? Because it seems that some 40 years of trillions of yen in ODA to both countries to effectively help them become world economic powerhouses isn't enough.

After nearly 70 years and countless apologies, both official and otherwise from Japan, some elements in China and South Korea still aren't satisfied -- nor will they likely ever be, considering the only real satisfaction it appears they will ever find is in fiery retribution, an asinine, childish, futile wish that simply is never going to happen.

Which leaves Japan with very little choice but to tolerate this nonsense and hope that 70 years of peace, incredibly fruitful economic and cultural ties, and patience will give way to a generation of better educated Chinese and South Korean youth who refuse to subsist on a diet of acrimony and recriminations, like their elders do.

So how does china and Korea know exactly who's being prayed to ?? Are they arrogant enough to demand that 2.5 million good souls should be ignored over 14 bad ones ??? I think the politicians have it right those two countries can piss off !

are you sure all 2.5 million were good souls? the 14 bad ones gave the commands, but i'm sure quite a lot of the 2.5 million carried out the raping/killing of civilians and POWs.

@CH3CHO

I straddle between the generation that suffered from Japanese brutality and the newer generation that is out of touch with past reality, so I see both sides. I don't need to explain any further, I am American OK?

I feel very sorry for the current Japanese generation. They get all the blame for the evil acts of their J govt that still cling to Imperial Japan greatness.

Poster Chin4Sailor said it best. Japan practise selective amnesia and I suggest Japanese traveling overseas should visit places where historical memorials about Japan WWII atrocities were made to feel the history that is just a footnote in Japanese textbooks. Visit Bataan, River Kwai, such places will wake them up!.

China and Korea need to join the rest of Us in the year 2013. The past is called the past for a reason. Every country has the right to pay their respects to the men and women who died for their country. Get over it. It was more than 60 years ago.

Your second sentence is exactly the point that these lawmakers are making. The fundamental mistake by the past lawmakers was to stop the visits based on irrational reasoning started by China.

Since 1945, a total of 67 visits by 14 Prime Ministers with bulk of the visits up until 1985. Has Japan militarized during that time? No. Have they learned from the past? Well. Let's see. No foreign civilian has been killed by the hands of JSDF (60 plus years and counting)

And of course, the biggest joke to all this is South Korea's stance when they, up until 2002 had their Embassy military attaché visit Yasukuni on March 30th. But for some reason, they all of the sudden decided that this was "offensive" when it's clearly apparent that all they wanted to do was join the China "bandwagon".

Based on Suga's comments during the press confernce, Abe's statement during the upper house meeting and his eagerness to meet with heads of state of foreign countries other than China and South Korea, and recently revealed statement by Aso to SK newly elected PM, it's clearly apparent that Japan will no longer "give in" to the demands of these two nations especially with a domestic issue of honoring their own war dead.

China and Korea need to join the rest of Us in the year 2013. The past is called the past for a reason. Every country has the right to pay their respects to the men and women who died for their country. Get over it. It was more than 60 years ago.

i'm sure 100 years from now, americans would still not "get over" the 9/11 attacks...even though it only killed a few thousand. tens of millions of asians died in the pacific war...of which many were civilians. sorry, but can't "get over it".

CH3CHO: "In 4 of the 5 sentences you raised as examples, I was talking about the country, not about the people."

Ah, yes, when you comment it's simply 'on the nation', not a generalization of... ummm... the nation... but when anyone else does it's suddenly some 'horrible generalization'? One again, the hypocrisy astounds... oops, no it doesn't astound at all. It only would if it were a surprise.

nigelboy: "Your second sentence is exactly the point that these lawmakers are making. The fundamental mistake by the past lawmakers was to stop the visits based on irrational reasoning started by China."

No, the fundamental mistake, worse than assuming it's not a mistake, is in the visits themselves, which have no footing in religion but are more than shoulder deep in sheer hate. CH3CHO knows this -- he cannot defend their lack of religion for his previous defense of 'freedom of religion'. You should know better, but then again, what nation are we talking about?

"Based on Suga's comments during the press confernce, Abe's statement during the upper house meeting and his eagerness to meet with heads of state of foreign countries other than China and South Korea, and recently revealed statement by Aso to SK newly elected PM, it's clearly apparent that Japan will no longer "give in" to the demands of these two nations especially with a domestic issue of honoring their own war dead."

Utter BS. Who do you know can expect help and respect by saying, "hang on a second while I urinate on you while denying the past. Please cooperate and understand, or it would be regrettable"?

maglev: "i'm sure 100 years from now, americans would still not "get over" the 9/11 attacks...even though it only killed a few thousand."

come on! They should move and and forget about the past! Same as the Jews should forget about the Holocaust, and Japan should simply forget Nagasaki and Hiroshima never happened, according to the logic of wingers on here. They simply cannot see the contradictions in their own arguments, and it's even worse when they condemn other nations for white-washing while their textbooks are 'cleansed' of any wrong-doing by Imperial Japan.

Poster Chin4Sailor said it best. Japan practise selective amnesia and I suggest Japanese traveling overseas should visit places where historical memorials about Japan WWII atrocities were made to feel the history that is just a footnote in Japanese textbooks. Visit Bataan, River Kwai, such places will wake them up!.

Can SK and China stop whitewashing their history books and teach how Japan had aided the two nations out of poverty and put them back on their own two feet?

Can Koreans visit those same places where historical memorials about Japan WWII atrocities were made to feel the history and admit that their ancestors were part in applying atrocities at their own will?

I don't think so.

CH3CHO: "Shintoism is not a jealous religion. People can pay respect to as many gods as they want. As I stated before, I do not support Yasukuni, but I support freedom of religion."

And yet again you ignore the questions posed to you and hide behind generalizations. Give it a try -- how many of there politicians are Shinto? Surely there's a netoyu page that can give you the 'stats'.

TRUTH: The war is indeed taught in Japanese schools. It's taught. Japan's colonial aspirations, Japan's invasion of China, Japan's colonization of Korea, the Philippines, et al., this stuff is all taught.

Oh? It's not taught, it's whitewashed, oh and there are plenty of missing "facts" in the curriculum that makes the rest of your post well, unreadable, because the basis of your argument is faulty from the start.

LFRAgain: "I did. And guess what? All the issues mentioned above are taught. Period."

Show me where sex-slaves are taught about, and the forced suicides in Japan? Abe has stated, quite a number of times, of how proud he is to have removed any reference to sexual slavery in the textbooks -- how no one should feel guilty, and about forward thinking, bla bla bla. Did you last read a text book in the '90s, when even then they were abridged (saved for the victim portions)?

If you are indeed serious, tell me how many know about the atrocities committed by Japan vs. those who ONLY know about the atomic bombings.

I don't expect a serious reply.

No, the fundamental mistake, worse than assuming it's not a mistake, is in the visits themselves, which have no footing in religion but are more than shoulder deep in sheer hate. CH3CHO knows this -- he cannot defend their lack of religion for his previous defense of 'freedom of religion'. You should know better, but then again, what nation are we talking about?

Don't speak for me, smith. The mere fact that prior PM's have visited on Spring/Fall festivals during the period of 1945-85 is in fact, a religious event. Simply stating "hate" based on your distorted view does not make it so.

当日祭では、生前、お召し上がりになっていた御饌神酒や海の幸、山の幸などの神饌50台をお供えして神霊をお慰めし、平和な世の実現を祈ります。-Spring festival "Pray for Peace"

http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/schedule/shunki.html

Utter BS. Who do you know can expect help and respect by saying, "hang on a second while I urinate on you while denying the past. Please cooperate and understand, or it would be regrettable"?

Nope. The current cabinet is simply stating that they will no longer deal with your constant whining when it's clearly apparent that no matter what Japan does, both SK and China will search anything for their anti-Japan behavior.

Can you care to explain why South Korea had their military attache visit Yasukuni on 2002 and up until that time, had no reservations about lawmakers/PM visit there? You can't.

CH3CHO: "I was talking about the country, not about the people. In the remaining one, I said "I do not know why young Koreans need to feel victimized", which is a negative sentence and is not a generalization."

Ah, but when a negative sentence is put towards 'Japanese' it suddenly become a generalization and hate? You truly do redefine hypocrisy. In fact, nearly all of your posts on this thread are attacks on character and the statements people make, while you claim your statements are not generalizations or 'negative sentences'.

These wingers are fools for doing what they do (how is that a generalization, pres tel?). Japanese who support this visit are likewise idiots (it's a 'negative statement, not a generalization'). My guess is you won't see how it works both ways, but, like the Japanese in question (a negative statement, not a generalization), you simply will turn off that 'logic' button and turn on the 'we are the victims' one.

What's the point LFR? Every nation will have it's own version of what transpired in WWII with omission of events.

U.S.(ie.American Pageant) will not have Tokyo Air raids (which to this day is the largest death toll ever resulted in a 3 day event). China will not have the nuclear bombings. Korea completely omits Treaty of Shimonoseki that made them independent and of course, their role in WWII.

But as to some reference to comparisons.

http://educationinjapan.wordpress.com/edu-news/japans-teaching-on-war-doesnt-deserve-bad-press/

As to what is written in Japanese textbooks (as in plural, something both China and Korea cannot claim) to major events.

http://tamatsunemi.at.webry.info/theme/7cdd7562fb.html

CH3CHO: You still haven't answered any of my questions, aside from deflection. Go ahead, give in an honest go. Why is Abe rescinding the apology of a former Japanese PM, for example, if the Japanese are so contrite. Why do these politicians understand Shinto so much more than me when they can't even understand why they do one thing Shinto, and the next Buddhist? Then the next thing just a complete lack of responsibility when it comes to their actions?

And please, when you answer, forget about the whole "You don't understand Shinto" garbage to someone who more than likely understands it better than most of the people going to Yasukuni for the purpose of upsetting their neighbours.

nigelboy: "U.S.(ie.American Pageant) will not have Tokyo Air raids (which to this day is the largest death toll ever resulted in a 3 day event). China will not have the nuclear bombings. Korea completely omits Treaty of Shimonoseki that made them independent and of course, their role in WWII."

This is a defense of what's lacking in the white-washed books here? Tisk, tisk, my friend. ANY nation omitting these things is an insult to the tragedies that occurred, bottom line. But hey, show us where the Japanese text books talk about sexual slavery instead of first: deny Imperial troops were involved, then have to sadly admit it before you quit (Abe's first time around) based on proof given by other nations, then get the job AGAIN due to right wing nutters so you can continue to deny any wrong doing or claim the people forced into prostitution BENEFITTED by it. And as I said to CH3CHO, try to avoid bogus netuyo claims when you do.

nigelboy: "As to what is written in Japanese textbooks (as in plural, something both China and Korea cannot claim) to major events."

And we all know how well Japan admits to the Nanjing Massacre, the death march, and so on. Wasn't there a female reporter a few years back who went, supported by crew, to Indonesia on the track of the death march and said, "Shucks, this isn't so bad! Now pass me the water"?

nigelboy: "The mere fact that prior PM's have visited on Spring/Fall festivals during the period of 1945-85 is in fact, a religious event."

Yeah, as religious as eating soap to take away something bad you said. So how about after '85?

nigelboy: "Nope. The current cabinet is simply stating that they will no longer deal with your constant whining when it's clearly apparent that no matter what Japan does, both SK and China will search anything for their anti-Japan behavior."

Ah, and yet, you claim it is about religion, as does CH3CHO. Here's the thing, this thread is about the whining AFTER people visited Yasukuni, not before. Do you not understand cause and effect? Show me a Japanese person victim of the atomic bombings that does not get upset when Americans try to justify said atrocities. When you say it is not so, I have a unicorn in my pocket to sell you.

nigelboy: "There is no entry on "sexual slavery""

That's all you needed to admit.

nigelboy: " I still don't understand your point in a sense that it's only natural that each of those nations will OMIT certain parts simply because there are not enough space to place EVERY SINGLE event. Koreans, much like you, think the "comfort women" in WWII involving Korean women should be emphasized while despite the fact that this practice continued by the Korean government to U.N. forces during the Korean war should be omitted."

It's amazing the mods let people like you and CH3CHO, when you have no relevant counter-argument, continue to post on this site by saying 'Koreans like you' and such rubbish in clearly meant insulting terms. Now, that said, and given that, you're going to continue going on defending the Japanese visit. Let me guess, "You're Korean!" because I am against it. Not only are you wrong, you are very, very wrong. I would say, "You are Japanese", but unfortunately for you I do not generalize or hate an entire nation for the acts of a few. Tisk tisk. Chide the people of China and Korea for doing what they are doing all you want -- your way of thinking is part of the cause, and I'm not even Korean!

And we all know how well Japan admits to the Nanjing Massacre, the death march, and so on. Wasn't there a female reporter a few years back who went, supported by crew, to Indonesia on the track of the death march and said, "Shucks, this isn't so bad! Now pass me the water"?

I don't think you know "how well Japan admits to the Nanjin Massacre" since it's clearly apparent that you can't read Japanese but as to the so-called "Bataan death march", it's not worth mentioning, IMO.

Yeah, as religious as eating soap to take away something bad you said. So how about after '85?

After the enshrinement of Class A and after 21 visits by 3 Prime ministers later, China decided to make an issue of it. You didn't know this?

Ah, and yet, you claim it is about religion, as does CH3CHO. Here's the thing, this thread is about the whining AFTER people visited Yasukuni, not before. Do you not understand cause and effect? Show me a Japanese person victim of the atomic bombings that does not get upset when Americans try to justify said atrocities. When you say it is not so, I have a unicorn in my pocket to sell you.

It is about religion and the universal tradition of honoring their own nations war dead, a domestic issue that the current cabinet had stated that it is none of your business. Why in the world are you bringing atomic bombings into this discussion?

nigelboy: "Can you care to explain why South Korea had their military attache visit Yasukuni on 2002 and up until that time, had no reservations about lawmakers/PM visit there? You can't."

Easy. As an attempt at peace, something Japan seems to have trouble keeping in its baby-hands while it hides behind the US for protection for its provocations. That, plus it was a person or persons taking the high-road, yet another thing a lot Japanese politicians (ahem, not all, CH3CHO) have an extremely hard time with, and it may well have been to honor those lost, with true contrition. Hard to believe the last, but you asked, so I give answers that you say I cannot, and that there is no way you can. My guess is that it was at least half politics, if not more, and perhaps a part to legitimately pray for those lost, on either side.... but I can be pretty sure the people in question kept in mind the rapists and murderers enshrined there as well. A human being is but a human being, despite all our mistakes and wrong doings, and even moreso for them, but when you lie, cheat, and deny they occurred, that is not human at all, and that is what is being protested.

Easy. As an attempt at peace, something Japan seems to have trouble keeping in its baby-hands while it hides behind the US for protection for its provocations. That, plus it was a person or persons taking the high-road, yet another thing a lot Japanese politicians (ahem, not all, CH3CHO) have an extremely hard time with, and it may well have been to honor those lost, with true contrition. Hard to believe the last, but you asked, so I give answers that you say I cannot, and that there is no way you can. My guess is that it was at least half politics, if not more, and perhaps a part to legitimately pray for those lost, on either side.... but I can be pretty sure the people in question kept in mind the rapists and murderers enshrined there as well. A human being is but a human being, despite all our mistakes and wrong doings, and even moreso for them, but when you lie, cheat, and deny they occurred, that is not human at all, and that is what is being protested.

"Taking the high road" LOL. You have no idea what this means. Taking the high road is to not meddle with nation's internal affairs especially in regards to how that nations honours her war dead. Taking the high road is to understand the basic universal concept that their is no such thing is universal interpretation of history and accept the fact that each country has her own views. Taking the high road is to honor the treaty that is in place and not demand something extra that has an expiration date of 1965.

The war criminals killed and destroyed countless families in Asia and brought Japan to her knees while they were alive. It seems that even in death they will continue to haunt everyone! Just get them out of Yasakuni if the Japanese want the 2.5 million souls to rest in peace.

Asian2013: "It seems that even in death they will continue to haunt everyone! Just get them out of Yasakuni if the Japanese want the 2.5 million souls to rest in peace."

They don't. Clearly they have not learned from history, and by denying history they want to repeat it -- and no doubt they want to be declared the victim from it, too.

@SamuraiBlueApr. 24, 2013 - 11:10PM JST

Poster Chin4Sailor said it best. Japan practise selective amnesia and I suggest Japanese traveling overseas should visit places where historical memorials about Japan WWII atrocities were made to feel the history that is just a footnote in >Japanese textbooks. Visit Bataan, River Kwai, such places will wake them up!.

Can SK and China stop whitewashing their history books and teach how Japan had aided the two nations out of poverty and put them back on their own two feet?

Can Koreans visit those same places where historical memorials about Japan WWII atrocities were made to feel the history and admit that their ancestors were part in applying atrocities at their own will?

I don't think so.

Sorry Samurai, this is diversion. Japan is in the spotlight, just like that deer in the headlights. If I am China, Thailand, Burma, Philippines, Malaysia, etc I will give free tourism for younger Japanese to come and see those war crime memorials so they really really really understand the other face of Japan as is still perpetuated by J Govt, ever so sneakily like the Yasukuni Shrine visit as well as attempt to remilitarise by changing to Constitution. Getting scary!

If I am China, Thailand, Burma, Philippines, Malaysia, etc

Two of the five you mentioned were allies with Japan. Another one has dedication sites throughout their country for fighting against the oppresive British regime and the military training school that was established during that time the graduates became leaders and fought and won the independence.

This is just my speculation:

In one sense China's propaganda ministry had a big coup in making official government dignitary visits to Yasukuni a foreign policy for Japan. I don't know how the Government of Japan responded in that first instance ... seemingly, it was ineffectual.

At this point, though, it should be a matter of retaking old ground to bring it back to what it once was. Very clearly, the Constitution guaranties religious freedom, that the State is not to meddle in it. So why not be consistent with that Constitutional Article and simply remove the public spectacle nature of visits to the Shrine ... at least from the standpoint of the media secretaries of Government officials is concerned.

The Japanese press may continue to hound the officials as they go and pay respects but if the officials themselves don't use those occasions to make public "appearances" that should lay down the frame work for why continuing Chinese and Korean objections are out of line.

@nigelboyApr. 25, 2013 - 01:49AM JST

If I am China, Thailand, Burma, Philippines, Malaysia, etc

Two of the five you mentioned were allies with Japan. Another one has dedication sites throughout their country for fighting against the oppresive British regime and the military training school that was established during that time the graduates became leaders and fought and won the independence.

Give me a break. Allies of Japan OR by cohesion, or Japan is the lesser of the two evil at that time? Just like Thailand was an ally of Japan, sure you forgot there are other parts of the equation at play. Why did Abe conveniently avoid the Death Railway town in Thailand? That makes sense if Japan is a true ally of Thailand right? It will be nice if he go to Bataan too and trace the Bataan March in Philippines, a present day ally!

We are about to be completely off topic. But here is my thought about the Buddhist blend of Shintoism. People have a hard time figuring out why Shintoism with Buddha statue is so different from other Buddhism practised in Asia. Now I think this is about right: Shintoism = NATIONALIST brand of Buddhism. There is a nationalist foundation in Shintoism, this is why the Yasukuni Shrine allow the list of the 14 Class A War Criminals to be there AND the incessant visits by the lawmakers is in line with the suspicions of the Koreans and Chinese and me and many others that Japan is always a nationalist country with total disregard for other country feelings! I can understand patroitism but nationalism is over the top and hurtful to other nations.

@CH3CHO

A great historical lesson diversion! But look at the BBC article below and please explain the Nationalism part of Shintoism. This is what is poisoning the atmosphere with China and Korea. Don't blame China and Korea for being upset. For illustration a recent US innocent planned reenactment of the Enola Gay bombing of Hiroshima in Dayton, Ohio was cancelled last week because it affect the sensitivities of Japanese when they protest. How come Japan always expect others to show sensitivities when she is unwilling to accomodate other country feelings? Will Japan protest if China and Korea celebrate the A Bomb dropping at each annivesary?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/shinto/history/nationalism_1.shtml

Excerpts: State Shinto When Shinto was reconstructed in 1868 the Imperial legend was moved centre stage, and Amaterasu - who until then was only revered in parts of Japan - was promoted to be the most important of the gods, given a national role in the new system of state Shinto, and because of her new status, used to validate the role of the Emperor, not only as ruler, but as the high priest of Shinto. This gave the Emperor, as her direct descendant, a divine right to rule not only Japan, but the whole world. Furthermore, it became official doctrine that since the Japanese were descended from the gods, they were superior to all other races. SCARY!

Yubaru,

Oh? It's not taught, it's whitewashed, oh and there are plenty of missing "facts" in the curriculum that makes the rest of your post well, unreadable, because the basis of your argument is faulty from the start.

You illustrate my point precisely. "Oh, it's taught, but it's whitewashed."

Whitewashed? Whitewashed how? Give me a concrete example. I dare you. I double dog dare you to pick out a social studies textbook used in a major city -- has to be a big town, mind you, since umbers are what you're all about, it would seem -- Pick out a textbook used by a significant number of Japanese junior high shool students and post here the text that demonstrates exactly where in the curriculum Japan's role in the war is whitewashed. Take your time. I'll wait.

Meanwhile, it's abundantly clear that your beef -- and that of the small but vocal minority of South Korean and Chinese flag-wavers -- is that Japanese textbook publishers and the Ministry of Education don't employ enough adjectives in the narrative. That's it in a nutshell. And it's ridiculous.

Smithinjapan,

Again, you continue to make claims that Japan has "learned nothing from the war," ignoring the obvious evidence sitting right before your eyes: 70 years of peace. A Self-Defense Force that has not been involved in an aggressive action in that entire time. A constitution that renounces the use of force or the maintenance of a standing army for offensive use -- something no other nation on earth can claim. An economy that has and *continues to pour trillions of yen in developmental aid money into countries all across Asia, China included.

Oh, yes. And textbooks recounting the war. Lots and lots of textbooks. You claim whitewash, but you're talking out of your nether-regions. You haven't the slightest clue what the textbooks contain, because you've never even bothered to crack one open to confirm your suspicions. Had you done so, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Instead, you've chosen to consistently rely on the constant stream of heresay perpetuated by others equally unable or unwilling to do the investigative legwork themselves, relying, again, on yet more heresay.

Not too impressive.

Tony Ew, when did "nationalism" earn a bad name? I do not see anything wrong with people with nationalism. I do not think a nationalistic religion should be banned, either. If you want to celebrate A bomb, earth quake or 911, go ahead, for you have the freedom of expression. But foreign government criticizeing freedom of religion is unacceptable, and people have to stand to protect their constitutional rights.

nigelboy: "Two of the five you mentioned were allies with Japan."

You really need to learn the meaning of the word 'ally'. If you put a gun to someone's head and force them to do something they don't want -- that person is not an ally in any sense of the word. You seem to not grasp the fact that Koreans and other nationals weren't gung-ho on being raped having their people murdered. Next you'll be saying the Dutch sex-slaves in Indonesia were 'willing allies' and got well compensated for servicing people out of coersion.

CH3CHO: "I do not see anything wrong with people with nationalism."

Call it semantics, if you will, but there is nothing wrong with 'patriotism'. 'nationalism' is in an of itself somewhat negative in meaning.

"But foreign government criticizeing freedom of religion is unacceptable, and people have to stand to protect their constitutional rights."

Again, show me one of these politicians who actually believes in Shinto. They're not practicing religion, they're staging a farce.

nigelboy: "I don't think you know "how well Japan admits to the Nanjin Massacre" since it's clearly apparent that you can't read Japanese but as to the so-called "Bataan death march", it's not worth mentioning, IMO."

"Not worth mentioning", eh? There's a shocker! Japan admits some 'bad things happened' in Nanjing, and to suggest I can't read Japanese because you don't like my comments is childish, but they down they play it down to the point where it almost sounds like Japan is once again the victim, and you in fact encourage this attitude through your comments -- it's not me who committed the atrocities, and pointing out who did for those who refuse to acknowledge it does not make the guilty parties innocent.

smithinjapan and nigelboy, please do not address each other any further on this thread, since all you are both doing is bickering.

@CH3CHOApr. 25, 2013 - 09:33AM JST

Tony Ew, when did "nationalism" earn a bad name? I do not see anything wrong with people with nationalism. I do not think a nationalistic religion should be banned, either. If you want to celebrate A bomb, earth quake or 911, go ahead, for you have the freedom of expression. But foreign government criticizeing freedom of religion is unacceptable, and people have to stand to protect their constitutional rights.

Hmm, you have no problem with nationalist attitudes. Soon the black van guys will run Japan into a ditch if you think nationalism is fine. A nationalist loves his country too much as to be blinded from seeing other considerations that if taken by a sober wise government avoids leading the country into a disastrous war or economic policy all because of pride in a particular cultural ritual that show complete insensitivities to others. One can be patriotic but being nationalist leads to bad outcome for the country. That I think is the difference. One more thing, blind patriotism like those that occur during Bush No WMD era, that will sober up folks who let their leaders lead them astray. Can't trust 'em politicians anywhere in the world when it come to war decisions!

Like LFR stated, many of those who criticize Japanese textbooks appears to not have read one despite giving links to them. What really astonish many is that while stating that manyJapanese are clueless to the events of WWII, the people who claim this are completely shocked that there were SE Asian nations that actually fought with Japan against Britain, Dutch, and U.S. which goes to show that every nation whitewashes history to some degree. For one, it's pride. And another, not important in the overall context to them.

smithinjapan

Again, show me one of these politicians who actually believes in Shinto.

Do I have to state the obvious? They visited a Shinto shrine and offered a prayer. So, by definition, they believe in Shintoism. As I stated before, Shintoism is not a jealous religion. One can believe in Shintoism at the same time believing in other religions.

CH3CHO: "Do I have to state the obvious? They visited a Shinto shrine and offered a prayer. So, by definition, they believe in Shintoism."

I'm in Japan. Almost all people in Japan are Japanese. Therefore I am almost all Japanese. I see you like syllogism. I go to a shrine or temple sometimes on New Years -- it doesn't make me Shinto if a shake a bell and offer 5 yen. They did it solely for scoring political points, and are about as Shinto as toilet paper. But hey, again, go ahead and prove their religion is Shinto. Should be pretty simple, no?

If they were to go off the books and pray and what not, I could see it, and would have absolutely nothing against it, but they intentionally go there and sign in under their job titles -- it is strictly politics, not religious belief.... well, okay, they DO have a religious desire to anger their neighbours.

I go to a shrine or temple sometimes on New Years -- it doesn't make me Shinto if a shake a bell and offer 5 yen. They did it solely for scoring political points, and are about as Shinto as toilet paper.

Once again the all seeing Smith is here to tell the readers of JT what is contained in the hearts and minds of people he has never met ..... and take a few gratuitous (borderline racist) shots at Shintoism while he's at it.

Tony EwApr. 25, 2013 - 12:52PM JST

A nationalist loves his country too much as to be blinded from seeing other considerations that if taken by a sober >wise government avoids leading the country into a disastrous war or economic policy all because of pride in a >particular cultural ritual that show complete insensitivities to others. One can be patriotic but being nationalist leads to >bad outcome for the country.

Thank you Tony Ew that is the best description of present day China that I have heard.

@OssanAmericaApr. 26, 2013 - 01:01AM JST

Tony EwApr. 25, 2013 - 12:52PM JST

A nationalist loves his country too much as to be blinded from seeing other considerations that if taken by a sober >wise government avoids leading the country into a disastrous war or economic policy all because of pride in a >particular cultural ritual that show complete insensitivities to others. One can be patriotic but being nationalist leads to >bad outcome for the country.

Thank you Tony Ew that is the best description of present day China that I have heard.

Again, master of diversion, just like what Japan do best. Here we are discussing Japanese misbehavior and how come it become a China discussion? An honest observation will say there are nationalists on both sides and guess what? You have frequent noisy black vans in Tokyo visible nationalism whereas it is very tame in China unless riled up. At this point I think the Japanese nationalists are the instigators as evidenced by the 'boat people' around Senkaku/Islands lately. It is plain simple: Japan takes irresponsible actions, China and S Korea REACT. These are nice countries, no facade of fake civility, they never make the first aggressive insulting moves.

This is not a who started it type of issue. Each side will point at the other anyway.

At least not if the point of the discussion is to find an end to it. Both China and South Korea have vested interests in maintaining its relative positions on Japan in regard to the WW2 record. A lot of that has domestic appeal and domestic advantage. Japan's Nationalists also are fanning the domestic flames with their desire to resuscitate an image of an older Japan that is, basically, anachronistic and out of synch with what Japan could do instead.

No one has a superior moral or ethical position to start with. China has its own perverted official history and South Korea has its own history of revisionist facts to suit an artificial self-image. I assume North Korea's is even worse.

And it IS worth taking note that at the very bottom of this dispute, there actually is a religion involved that has its rules which do not make for political solutions. A religion that is being exploited by politicians and which exploitation has historical resonance to times past and a war that those protagonists predecessors lost.

You give yourself too much credit Mr. Ewww Just Like Japan, there are Nationalistic and irresponsible people in your beloved Korea and China. Trashing Cars, Burning Factories, Rioting on the streets, Burning Flags, Wishing death upon Japan etc etc etc. Definitely no facade of fake civility there, I will give you that. I do recall a certain instance where the previous leader of SK visited Takeshima as a deliberate measure to provoke? does that level the playing field a little? Honestly, its a group of adult kindergarteners arguing over who gets to play on the swing.

@HokoOnchi

And it IS worth taking note that at the very bottom of this dispute, there actually is a religion involved that has its rules which do not make for political solutions. A religion that is being exploited by politicians and which exploitation has historical resonance to times past and a war that those protagonists predecessors lost.

As a Japanese, please explain why it was done in SECRET in 1972 I believe where they enshrine the 14 names whereas it was not done before. Why don't enshrine it where their ashes are, or if very difficult, why not put them in a separate location instead of comingled inside same place in Yasukuni? Put them in a separate room in Yasukuni, is that very hard to do? THEN we can see if the 168 lawmakers dare to bow to them and clap their hands to summon their kami. They are super special and they DO deserve a special A class enshrinement!

@Tokiyo

Dunno why you are so upset, me not interested in uncivilized acts from ANY country. How many times I have to tell you and your cohorts I am from USA?

JoeBigs wrote: "I've been there [i.e. Yasukuni Shrine] and found it to be a great."

Sure, it's pretty and everything, but Yasukuni Shrine is the virtual HQ of right-wing goons: I go past it every day, and on several occasions have seen the flag-covered loudspeaker vans parked in there and leaving from there to do their rounds.

Is there any way a peaceful solution?

Tony Ew Apr. 26, 2013 - 08:48AM JST

As a Japanese, please explain why it was done in SECRET in 1972 I believe where they enshrine the 14 names whereas it was not done before. Why don't enshrine it where their ashes are, or if very difficult, why not put them in a separate location instead of comingled inside same place in Yasukuni? Put them in a separate room in Yasukuni, is that very hard to do? THEN we can see if the 168 lawmakers dare to bow to them and clap their hands to summon their kami. They are super special and they DO deserve a special A class enshrinement!

Basically you are saying that a religious organization needs to be told what to do about how it goes about its business for political reasons. As much as I think the people at Yasukuni are in the wrong, I have to respect their right to be wrong.

This is the point I have been raising as for my own point of view of this issue. The old Japan, the one by which the War was fought, merged Shinto religion with Nationalist propaganda to justify the militarism that took place. The new Japan (Post War) should look at the situation differently and see that there is difference between State and Shrine.

The Shrine officials can do whatever they want based upon whatever they call is their religious law or rule. Whether it makes sense, is contradictory or illogical is of no import as far as it goes because it is their right as a religion to do as they see appropriate for religious purposes. The purpose of the Shrine is what it is, to house the spirits of the war dead not just from WW2 but from before then as well.

The Nationalism being expressed by the right wingers today in using Yasukuni at all for their partisan purposes are a call back to those wartime days when Shinto was used to justify their political aims. This is regressive thinking. Today's Nationalists should take heed of what Emperor Hirohito decided in 1978. He stopped going to Yasukuni because it is remarked upon that in 1978, the names of people who were convicted of Class A war crimes were added to the Yasukuni lists. He stopped going and he was at the time the principal manifestation of the Shinto belief system in the country.

The current Emperor also has not visited Yasukuni.

Tony EwApr. 26, 2013 - 02:20AM JST @OssanAmericaApr. 26, 2013 - 01:01AM JST Tony EwApr. 25, 2013 - 12:52PM JST A nationalist loves his country too much as to be blinded from seeing other considerations that if taken by a sober >wise government avoids leading the country into a disastrous war or economic policy all because of pride in a >particular cultural ritual that show complete insensitivities to others. One can be patriotic but being nationalist leads to >bad outcome for the country. Thank you Tony Ew that is the best description of present day China that I have heard.

Again, master of diversion, just like what Japan do best. Here we are discussing Japanese misbehavior and how >come it become a China discussion?

Because China is in the headline of this article.

It is truly sad to read these comments.

Tony Ew,

Now I think this is about right: Shintoism = NATIONALIST brand of Buddhism. There is a nationalist foundation in Shintoism

You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. Not only is there no nationalistic foundation to Shintoism, but the roots of Shintoism and Buddhism are are WORLDS apart geographically, historically, philosophically, culturally. I highly recommend you open and read a few books before posting on this subject again.

In feudal eras and before, some areas had crimation, some had burying corpses (do-sou). After Japan was defeated, families of dead soldiers received a small wooden box. Some had a small rock, some had land dirts. These families accepted and did not complain. Japanese custom of 'shiyoou-ga-nai'. Thus, when they were enshrined in Yasukuni, only names, etc was given to Yasukuni and local shintou shrines and temples..

LFRAgain Okay, gang. Can we just accept a fundamental truth about this whole World War II business as far as Japan is concerned?

TRUTH: The war is indeed taught in Japanese schools. It's taught. Japan's colonial aspirations, Japan's invasion of China, Japan's colonization of Korea, the Philippines, et al., this stuff is all taught.

Oh, because YOU Say it's the truth, let's just forget everything we know up until now and believe your version.. Don't believe you're own lying eyes, believe what you say... LOL...

Another Arm-Chair warriors, that's obviously living on another planet, because the's NOT living in Japan.

Here is a recent article, written by a Japanese person, Astute, Well Educated, Born and Raised in JAPAN.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068

Or do we have to cough up 1000 more articles, written by Japanese, about Japan, before these snake oil salesman will give up...? LOL...

Chin4Sailor,

Oh heaven's, you again?

"Oh, because YOU Say it's the truth...

No, it's because it is the truth. I live and work in Japan and have done so for 13 years. In that time I've worked in Japanese junior high schools for 11 years and have been fortunate enough to call several social studies teachers friend. They've had no problem whatsoever sharing their teaching materials with me, including, of course, the official history textbooks, textbooks which address Japan's aggression during the war.

You're right. The eyes don't lie. Sit down with an actual textbook some time and expad your mind. Granted, you'll be disappointed at the lack of colorful adjectives designed to inspire self-loathing. But you'd be surprised at what's actually covered, contrary to the rhetoric.

Meanwhile, thanks for trying to peddle the recollections of woman's learning experiences in a private Japanese junior high school some 17 years ago, but no. Not quite there yet in terms of compelling evidence, particularly when I've got the actual texts sitting right next to me five days out of any given week.

(Oh, and "arm-chair warrior" isn't actually used the way you used it, at least among the rest of the English speaking world. You might want to fine-tune your sarcasm for better effect in the future.)*

No more bickering please.

Japan can honor it's wartime dead anyway they please. It is none of China, S.Korea, America's, or any other country's business how Japan writes it's history books, or how it honors their dead.

Take a lesson China and S.Korea. If you don't like foreign countries meddling in your affairs, then you shouldn't meddle in other countries affairs either. Keep your noses out of other people's business. I'm assuming a great country like China has people in government with the intellectual ability to understand this concept.