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© 2014 AFPS Korea, Japan resume 'comfort women' talks
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© 2014 AFP
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BertieWooster
Germany did it, how come Japan and Korea have so much difficulty?
Let's hope they talk it out once and for all, so that we can all move on.
OssanAmerica
You are right Bertie, the Germans did it. But the Poles, Russians, Ukranians , etc.all don't make it an official a political and diplomatic tool and a hate fest.
" In order to control the spread of venereal diseases, brothels were set up for the Wehrmacht (approx. 500 throughout the war) and for SS officers where hundreds of girls and prostitutes, mostly of Polish and Russian origin, were forced to work "Whore for Hitler's troops" was tattooed on these young women. (after March 1942, Jewish women were no longer allowed to work in brothels). Forced prostitution and rape were common in concentration camps, female prisoners being mainly the victims. Documents presented at the Nuremberg Trials in 1946 prove the fact that systematic acts of rape were committed by the German conquerors. In World War II, the German military brothels were set up by the Third Reich throughout most of occupied Europe, for the use by their soldiers in the Wehrmacht and for the SS officers. These establishments were sometimes set up via existing brothels which they took over in the West, but generally organized as new, especially in the East. Until 1942, there were 500 brothels of this kind in Western and Eastern Europe. Operating in hotels confiscated by the Nazis, these self-evident war-rape sites used to serve travelling soldiers and those withdrawn from the front. In combination with the German concentration camp brothels, it is estimated that at least 34,140 women were forced to serve as prostitutes during the Third Reich. In most cases, especially in Eastern Europe, the women were being caught on the streets of occupied cities in Łapankas (Nazi German military kidnapping raids against civilians) and forced to serve as prostitutes thereafter.
semperfi
OssanAmerica:
Exactly . . . .And so for Intern'l observers it is puzzling that So Korea seems to focus so obsessively on past events that may have allegedly happened . . rather than tackling the improprieties & scandals it is currently facing in various areas . . . . ..
nath
Once again we have people trying to justify Japan's past wrongs with 'well someone else did it too'.
nigelboy
In other words, compared to the Holocaust, what the Germans did in regards to military brothels amounts to a mere footnote.
The "same" people that you accuse of never made those accusations.
nigelboy
Then I kindly suggest you never bring up the Holocaust when discussing the issue of military brothels.
As the review of the Kono statement indicated, the denials and revisionism were practiced by the Korean government.
hkitagawa
It is like Ukraine issue. Americans will have a huge problem if Japan become China and South Korea ally. China and South Korea'a sentiment increased with the development of the internet blogs. It happened in Libya and many other places.
nigelboy
Questioning the validity and the accuracy of the statements made by civic groups, former comfort women, and Korean government does not make it a revision nor denial.
Chris Whitmore
nigelboy, I think the person who brought up the Holocaust was you, he was comparing the military brothels run by the Nazi's and then ones run by the Imperial Armed Forces, saying that the Japanese claiming it was normal/okay because other people were doing it too. It is the logic of a toddler, "It's okay that I stole this cookie Mummy! Because Timmy did it too!", is the logic employed by prominent nationalists and revisionists.
LeChatBotte
Zichi
Are you kidding me? Growing up in France, I couldn't spend a week without hearing in the news that some German researcher came up with a theory that the holocaust never happened.
OssanAmerica
But the key difference between Germany and Japan is the huge difference between China/SK and France. The French believed that in order to avoid the conflicts of the past, one needed to create a structure that would unite all Western democracies.
http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/eu-nobel/index_en.htm
That's in stark contrast with some communist bully bent on revenge and their opportunistic vassal uh?
LeChatBotte
Strangerland
What if that 'someone else' was South Korea themselves
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/11/us-southkorea-usa-military-idUSKBN0FG0VV20140711
nath
Doesn't change anything. The "he did it too" defense simply means two people (groups) are culpable. One doesn't negate the other.
LeChatBotte
Strangerland
I actually agree. It doesn't change what Japan themselves did. But it does make the accuser sound absurdly hypocritical. It's like asking a criminal to judge another criminal.
ReformedBasher
None of the other countries invaded (annexation = same thing?) hold grudges against Japan like these two. It's more political waffle than real attempts to move on. Oh, wait, they don't want to move on... keeping their people distracted from current issues by rehashing the past and actively encouraging hysteria. China and South Korea are both similar to North Korea in this regard.
Fortunately there will always be people who are more concerned with making the world a better place than pushing whatever political, or religious, agenda they think comes before everything else. Even back home, it's the same. I really don't care who is in power if the country comes first.
CrazyJoe
Cultural differences between the two nations (Germany and Japan) have played a role in the different attitudes they have taken toward their past. In Germany there is a sense of guilt about the war that is rooted in Christian teachings, while in Japan there is more of a sense of shame.
nath
Yes, you are correct that Japan doesn't want to move on. They are more interested in re-writing history than in letting it lie. If they would just keep their mouths shut, the Koreans and Chinese wouldn't have anything to complain about.
smithinjapan
nigelboy: no shock you bring up the Holocaust as a compison to minimize how the Imperial Army raped women of all ages. How about a more valid comparison, then: how the Nazis exterminated an estimated six million Jews while the Imperial Army exterminated an estimated 10 million across Asia? Or wait... did that even happen in your books?
Moderator
All readers stay on topic please. The Holocaust is not relevant to this discussion.
CH3CHO
Here is a link to a Korean newspaper article written by a Korean professor Cheon Bong Kwan as a book review on "Ianfu of the Empire" written by another Korean professor Pak Yu Ha. It will help understanding the Korean view on the issue. The article is available in Japanese http://www.chosunonline.com/site/data/html_dir/2014/07/19/2014071900902.html, and in Korean http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2014/07/11/2014071104040.html.
nath
Wow, so why doesn't someone tell these girls who were raped by the Japanese military that they should actually be ok with it since it wasn't the Japanese military that kidnapped them, but rather Koreans that sold them into sex slavery? That would make everything better instantly!
OssanAmerica
Sorry zichi but Japan hasn't revised their position on Comfort Women either.
nath
CrazyJoe Jul. 24, 2014 - 09:36AM JST
I respectfully disagree that Christianity is the main factor CrazyJoe. I believe it's that the Germans could see first-hand the human-toll inflicted on those unfortunate victims of the Third Reich and this sickened German society. I have viewed taped testimony of German civilians who said they had heard vague rumors about atrocities but it wasn't till they witnessed it with their own eyes did they realize what they had allowed to happen. Thus the German children were and continue to be educated to the past wrong doings in the hope that those horrendous mistakes of war will never be repeated.
The Japanese unfortunately were not able to see first-hand that which was inflicted upon those by the Imperial Army, nor have the Japanese children been educated about it, and nor have those who committed those atrocities come forward to confess. And for the handful that have come forth to confess what a beating they have taken being called pathological liars and traitors. The problem with Japan is they have been lead to believe they themselves are the victims and were never taught the human suffering that was inflicted upon their Asian neighbors and the main reason is shame, by those who are keenly aware of the truth. And yes, I'm keenly aware many Japanese civilians endured unimaginable suffering. Many Japanese still either have never heard of Unit 731 not to mention the indescribable photo evidence and testimony from Japanese medical officers and nurses and their notes and journals to collaborate it nor do they know that the tremendous death toll on the Okinawan people was largely due to Tokyo's betrayal, it's decision to sacrifice the whole island and Okinawan people in a last ditch suicide mission that would halt the Americans in their tracks and force them to give-up any plans for invasion of the mainland and force a negotiated peace deal. I am astonished that so few Japanese have any understanding of what Tokyo inflicted upon the Okinawan people, who could have been easily been evacuated off the island in advance of the US invasion and how the continued denials by the mainland even today keep those wounds alive.
In March 2007, the Abe administration ordered the Ministry of Education to eliminate all references to military coercion in the compulsory mass suicides (shudan jiketsu) of Okinawan residents during the Battle of Okinawa which triggered a wave of anger across Okinawan. Look it up, it really happened. Abe and his like minded comrades have for decades been white-washing the tragedies committed by Japanese imperialism and even more shameful, those atrocities it committed against it's own people. The Japanese people are at large intentionally kept ignorant of their own history and those responsible will not stop until every record has been wiped clean and sanitized.
How many Japanese know that thousands of Koreans were slaughtered in Japan at the hands of vigilante groups comprising citizens, police and soldiers after the Great Kanto Earthquake in September, 1923. Look it up, it really happened.
Does this ignorance void the Japanese people of any duty or shame that one should have, or not, is well beyond my pay-level but history does prove that those who forget the past are condemned to relive it. Do I think that the Japanese should be a bit more empathetic towards those who have been victim of it's misdeeds, I damn sure do.
smithinjapan
Ossan: "Sorry zichi but Japan hasn't revised their position on Comfort Women either."
Sorry, bud, but they have in the past. Before Abe 'crapped out' in his last run as PM he stated that Imperial troops had nothing to do with the brothels and did not visit them -- until he was given proof and was forced to take back his statements; later saying they in fact DID visit the brothels, b-b-b-b-but the women were all volunteers and not coerced.
This issue will never be resolved because Japan will never truly own up to what it's done. They ALWAYS insist, as you so very love to do Ossan, that the women were all more than willing volunteers who were paid well, and that NONE were forced into it and/or raped. As Zichi and others have pointed out, Germany, on the other hand HAS properly atoned for their war crimes, and those who deny them can even be imprisoned. Is it really any wonder how the grandkids of war criminals get into high positions in this nation and seem to be champing at the bit to repeat the same mistakes?
afanofjapan
I love Japan, but why do i get the image of Abe saying "c'mon guys, lets talk about why i am right and you guys are all wrong"...
igloobuyer
A lot of the revisionisms and denial about Japanese war crimes, including 'comfort women', are based on fear and denial that one's own people were evil and inhumane during the war. They want to believe the Japanese military were basically good people in harsh and stressful circumstances. And they would be right. However, what they fail to understand is that any human individual or group is capable of the most heinous of crimes. Yes, today it is hard to imagine Japanese people committing the atrocities of comfort women and mass torture and brutal and cruel murder of many thousands of men, women and children during the war. But they did. If you understand Japanese culture and history you would never doubt that Japanese people can be driven through pressure and adherence to cultural values to do practically anything they are told to do. And they most certainly did.
Today Japan is very different, people are more individual thinking and can better stand up to authority. But that doesn't mean the past should be ignored, forgotten or denied. I hope the Japanese delegation at these meetings have this in mind.
JohnY921
Obama: "This was a terrible, egregious violation of human rights. Those women were violated in ways that, even in the midst of war were shocking."
Japanese need to study their history, savagery. They need to understand that savagery is not something to be proud of. And it's not "Comfort Woman". You call it "Sex Slavery."
nath
The number of apologies is way over done. Get over it. How many more leaders will have to slap their foreheads on the tatami before being accepted?
Rediculous.
War causes those without to do things to do things they would not do otherwise during peace.
If one needs to sell themselves to get food, so be it. Drug addicts do it all the time.
Peace
OssanAmerica
Revisionism? I'm not the one who brought up Germany. It was the previous poster. Calling someone a "revisionist" is the equivalent of name calling when short of sound arguments. Showing what Germany did was necessary to prove that South Korea is using a WWII issue which is NOT unique as a political tool. Because other nations are not harping on it and using it against Germany. In no post have I ever stated that "all comfort women were willing prostitutes". If you believe so please post it for all to see. It is a known fact that the Comfort women were mostly deceived or sold off by parents, families and NOT all prostitutes.
Abe is correct. The vast majority of Comfort Women were recruited through deception by Korean agents working for the Japanese military. Most of them went off thinking they were going to get sent to work in a factory. Scholars both South Korean and Japanese agree on this view. Only the ignorant or biased believe that all Comfort women were forcibly kidnapped from their homes in the middle of the night by Japanese soldiers.
And when were either of them in the Japanese government in power or in the cabinet or otherwise empowered to speak on "behalf of all Japan"? Picking and choosing individual politicians and applying heir comments to reflect all of Japan is frankly, pretty stupid.
nath
Only the revisionists think that it matters one whit to the girls who were getting raped day in day out by Japanese soldiers.
nigelboy
Zichi. Those information aren't new for nobody has denied the involvement by the military. However, the central issue here is who was doing the recruiting "against their own will, through coaxing, coercion, etc." which in case of Korea, there is no verifiable evidence to confirm that IJA personnel conducted such actions.
nigelboy
Zichi. There was no "sending of agents to Korea". They were Koreans in Korea who did the recruiting, paying in advance to the parents, requesting attachment to the military, and operating the brothel.
"in charge" as in brothel operators as stated above.
I'm talking about Korea and Korean comfort women which there is no evidence to suggest "administrative/military personnel directly took part in the recruitments".
Also, if you agree that most of the comfort women are Korean, it's quite a contrast from the comfort women plaque which states
"THE MORE THAN 200,000 WOMEN AND GIRLS WHO WERE ABDUCTED BY THE ARMED FORCES OF THE GOVERNMENT OF IMPERIAL JAPAN. 1930's - 1945"
nigelboy
No. It simply means agents were civilians and not a military personnel.
Funny that you quote from the report that also states,
"While in Burma they amused themselves by participating in sports events with both officers and men, and attended picnics, entertainments, and social dinners. They had a phonograph and in the towns they were allowed to go shopping."
Of course they moved. They were attached to the military units.
It is strange hence the controversy. This is one of many reasons why Kono statement was reviewed.
Is it necessary? I don't see any monuments in your country honoring the suffering of foreign victims at the hands of your country's troops.
OssanAmerica
Only the prejudiced believe that the TRUTH does not matter,
nigelboy
Yes. The issue is settled as the Korean government promised as per Kono statement review. It's sad that the Korean government cannot honor it.
As to the involvement of recruitment, the review states the following.
"Also, regarding the involvement of the military in the recruitment of the comfort women, the ROK requested wording that was equivalent to “the military or recruiters who were instructed by the military,” or in other words, that the recruitment was carried out by the military or that the military instructed other recruiters to do so. But the Japanese side considered that the recruitment was not carried out by the military, but mainly by recruiters who had done so based on the “intentions” of the military, and hence could not accept that the military were the main party that carried out the recruitment. Also, as the Japan side could not confirm that the military “instructed” the recruiters to carry out the recruitment, it proposed that the expression be changed to that the military “requested” the recruiters carry out the recruitment. In response to this, the ROK wanted the expression “ordered” used for the involvement of the military in both the establishment of the comfort stations and the recruitment of the comfort women, but the Japanese side did not accept it. Ultimately, it was decided on the wording that the comfort stations were established and managed"
Another "mentioning of the Holocaust". You asked which country? My answer. Your country. Unless of course you yourself are revisionist who think your country has not caused any suffering to another state ever.
There you go, making up numbers again. (inflating numbers)
http://www.awf.or.jp/1/facts-07.html
sfjp330
nigelboy Jul. 25, 2014 - 03:00AM JST the Japan side could not confirm that the military “instructed” the recruiters to carry out the recruitment,
The history shows that main allegations had been proved in a Dutch court under Western rules of evidence as far back as 1948. That court, which had been convened in what was then the Dutch East Indies had considered allegations that Japanese army officers had forced many Dutch women seized in the Dutch East Indies into sexual slavery. One Japanese military official was executed and eleven other Japanese citizens were sentenced to jail terms. The Dutch went on in 1956 successfully to press the Japanese government to pay compensation to the women.
nigelboy
sfjp330
I'm referring to the Korean comfort women since this is what the article is about.
I'm well aware of the Semarang case which is repeated ad nauseum as to somehow "prove" that this was going on everywhere by the IJA when it's merely an exception. Also not mentioned in your post is the fact that the IJA officer in charge was court marshalled by IJA when this was discovered further supporting that IJA never condoned such actions.
sfjp330
@nigelboy
As you know, there has been effort that has been made over decades by successive J-governments to suppress the stories of the ‘comfort’ women, an effort which has been supported in the post-war period by the silence of U.S. and Allied nations. Few would dispute that this has been the case. Relevant documentation is difficult to obtain, due to the enduring classification of official Japanese military and ministerial documents from the period, as well as the fact that Japan has no freedom of information legislation to enable researchers to gain access. If Japan has nothing to hide, why don't J-goverment pass a freedom of information legislation?
nigelboy
I don't know. That's news to me. It seems these comfort women are quite vocal as they are making tours throughout the world including Japan just last year.
Not really. That was what AWF worked for.
http://www.awf.or.jp/6/document.html
sfjp330
nigelboy Jul. 25, 2014 - 03:21AM JST I'm well aware of the Semarang case which is repeated ad nauseum as to somehow "prove" that this was going on everywhere by the IJA when it's merely an exception. Also not mentioned in your post is the fact that the IJA officer in charge was court marshalled by IJA when this was discovered further supporting that IJA never condoned such actions.
The basis of the Dutch prosecution is the result of the Geneva Convention of 1929. While not a signatory to the convention, Japan had given a qualified promise to follow the Geneva rules in 1942, one of which prohibited forced prostitution of prisoners-of-war. The details regarding the rape of Dutch civilian women in 1942 were raised at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal but this was only to provide evidence that crimes had been committed against Allied civilians. A more concrete example of the fixation with Western victims, the proceedings of the Batavia War Crimes Tribunal, which was conducted by Dutch authorities in 1948. Disappointingly, Indonesian, Filipino, or Korean 'comfort' women could not have similar status to the Dutch as prisoners-of-war during this period. The victimization of predominantly Asian 'comfort' women inevitably took second-place to other war crimes investigated and prosecuted by the Allies.
nigelboy
You're confused. What I'm specifically talking about are war monuments and memorials dedicated to the "foreign" victims (former adversary nations) in your nation.
To put it simply,
"But where are the monuments in your country of all the various people who suffered at the hands of the your country's troops?
sfjp330
nigelboy Jul. 25, 2014 - 04:57AM JST But where are the monuments in your country of all the various people who suffered at the hands of the your country's troops?
If you didn't know, 1.7 million Koreans and Korean-Americans are living in the U.S., and why is your goverment getting involved in a foreign countries monument? They could remember the history any way they like. Few years ago, two Japanese goverment officials visited Palisades Park, N.J., with a request that took local administrators by surprise, the Japanese wanted a small Korean Comfort Women monument removed from a public park. The Japanese government was willing to plant cherry trees in the borough, donate books to the public library “and do some things to show that we’re united in this world and not divided,” But the offer was contingent on the memorial’s removal.. After the refusal, the second delegation arrived and was led by four members of the Japanese Parliament. Their approach was less diplomatic. The politicians, members of the opposition LDP tried in asking that the monument be removed, to convince the Palisades Park authorities that comfort women had never been forcibly conscripted as sex slaves.
nigelboy
Sigh. In other words, there are none in your country. Don't worry Zichi. This is a norm for most countries whose government doesn't like to sponsor their own military's misdeeds to other states civilians both past and present. They choose to honor the military instead.
nath
That response is a failure in logic if there ever was one.
nath
And another logic failure.
OssanAmerica
I can think of no countries where monuments exist commemorating the civilians of another country who suffered at the hands of their own military. I am not surprised that zichi could not name any. I could not name any in the U.S.
igloobuyer
OssanAmerica and nigelboy
There are monumnrts to the holocaust in Germany, monuments to Indian massacres in America, monuments of aboriginal massacres in Australia, monuments to massacres of Maori in NZ.
Now, you might say that there are few monuments to victims of atrocities in these countries to people of other countries, but don't forget, apart from Germany no other country brought such mass murder and torture of foreign people in their own lands as much as Japan did.
toshiko
Apology by Japanese Govt. Why Suga went to JSDF Library after he yelled to a lawmaker he has a proof comfort woman existed in heating argument. Notice GIRL is mentioned. (not Woman) Also mentioned is sex slave.
Three Korean women filed suit in Japan in December, 1991, around the time of the 50th anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack, demanding compensation for forced prostitution. In 1992, documents which had been stored since 1958 when they were returned by United States troops and which indicated that the military had played a large role in operating what were euphemistically called "comfort stations" were found in the library of Japan's Self-Defense Agency. The Japanese Government admitted that the Japanese Army had forced tens of thousands of Korean women to have sex with Japanese soldiers during World War II. On January 14, 1992, Japanese Chief Government Spokesman Koichi Kato issued an official apology saying, "We cannot deny that the former Japanese army played a role" in abducting and detaining the "comfort girls," and "We would like to express our apologies and contrition". Three days later on January 17, 1992 at a dinner given by South Korean President Roh Tae Woo, the Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa told his host: "We Japanese should first and foremost recall the truth of that tragic period when Japanese actions inflicted suffering and sorrow upon your people. We should never forget our feelings of remorse over this. As Prime Minister of Japan, I would like to declare anew my remorse at these deeds and tender my apology to the people of the Republic of Korea." He apologized again the following day in a speech before South Korea's National Assembly On April 28, 1998, the Japanese court ruled that the Government must compensate the women and awarded them US$2,300 ($3,328 in 2014) each. In 2007, the surviving sex slaves wanted an apology from the Japanese government. Shinzō Abe, the prime minister at the time, stated on March 1, 2007, that there was no evidence that the Japanese government had kept sex slaves, even though the Japanese government had already admitted the use of coercion in 1993. On March 27 the Japanese parliament issued an official apology. On February 20, 2014, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said that the Japanese government may reconsider the study and the apology. However, Prime Minister Abe clarified on March 14, 2014 that he had no intention of renouncing or altering it.