S Korea rejects Japan's proposal for talks

Thursday 17th July, 03:50 PM JST

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Seiharinokaze at 01:14 AM JST - 21st July

bibric

In addition to the Korean Decree, the 1905 Japanese announcement of Dokdo was illegal. The Japanese people in the Sinemahyun already recognized that it belonged to Korean territory. See the website: Illegality of Japanese 1905 Dokdo Announcement. http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-expansionism-politics.html

Please let me know in which part of the web site you mentioned the Japanese people in Shimane prefecture had already recognized that Takeshima belonged to Korean territory?

The Korean imperial ordinance of 1900 didn't announce that Dokdo belonged to Korean territory. It declared Ulleungdo 鬱陵島, Chikdo 竹島 and Sokdo 石島 belonged to Ganwondo of Korea without any geographical specification. Chikdo could be interpreted as the nearby islet to the east of Ulleungo since the islet used to be called by the name 竹嶋. But it is not clear where Sokto 石島 was located. I may ask in the similar critical logic why there was no mention of Liancourt Rocks in the ordinance too?

Now, don't you think all this is already something of international dispute?
nigelboy at 09:10 AM JST - 21st July

Bottom line.

Korea doesn't have any maps or documents describing the location of current Takeshima/Dokdo before Japan's incorporation 1905. They simply didn't know about it.
ecodrive at 12:40 PM JST - 21st July

nigelboy, Korea has tons of maps and old records to prove Dokdo belongs to Korea and that's undisputable. Japan must realize playing their childish textbook game with false information won't do a damn good.
RepublicofTexas at 12:50 PM JST - 21st July

ecodrive,

There are just as many maps proving the islands belong to Japan. Nice try though.
JoeBigs at 05:49 PM JST - 21st July

Ok, so why wont Korea have talks with Japan over the Islands? Hell this can easily be resolved if Korea accepts Japan request to go to UN Arbitration?

hmm wonder why the Koreans wont go? Hmmm wonder wonder why, hmm could it be that they dont have a leg to stand on? Hell if your case was/is so strong why not go?

Now anyone of the Korean supporters care to tell us what the difference between the Ulreungdo and Takeshima Islands?

Also which map can you produce claiming that the island in your old (Old meaning ancient time not 1900) charts was not Ulreungdo rather than Takeshima?

Please I would love to see this map that shows both islands in your old charts.
bibric at 12:24 AM JST - 22nd July

Seiharinokaze According to the interpretation of the governmental declaration, Sokdo 石島 is "Dokdo" since at the time since Liancourt Rocks is identical to Sokdo. Nice talking with you!
Seiharinokaze at 02:29 AM JST - 22nd July

bibric

Your logic is A is B because C is A without actually mentioning C in the original proposition. Perhaps I better desist from asking anymore how identical to Liancourt Rocks the islet called Sokdo was and why you ceased to call it by the name that was formally announced by the ordinance. Nice talking to you too.
nigelboy at 08:03 AM JST - 22nd July

nigelboy, Korea has tons of maps and old records to prove Dokdo belongs to Korea and that's undisputable. Japan must realize playing their childish textbook game with false information won't do a damn good.

False. Korea has no maps/documents of such sort regarding Liancourt Rocks prior to 1905. The maps/documents that you refer to are all relating to Ulleungdo and her nearby islets one of which is Jukdo. Korean maps are simply, a joke. They could not even get the position of Ulleungdo and Jukdo correctly let alone Liancourt Rocks.
hermitage at 02:40 PM JST - 22nd July

It's nonsense that S. Korea that criticizes Japan's dictatorship during the wartime of WWII does not critically evaluate S. Korea's own history in the 1940s and 50s, mainly what 李承晩（Syngman Rhee）did, and how good the President used to be.

Japan already proposed to discuss the issue of Takeshima/Dodko at ICJ decades ago.
genjuro at 02:51 PM JST - 22nd July

Now I have a question? Will Koreans ever get over the past? Hmmm because by the replies here none of the Korean supports can come up with any good reason why should Korea not negotiate. All you guys keep bring up is a 60 year old war...

No wonder you guys will stay in the shadow of Japan for another 60 years.

You've hit the nail on the head. You're dealing with Koreans, a people with an illogical, emotional culture that not only has not grown up but has remained backward and undeveloped. ecodrive's comment is like that of a little kid who keeps saying "but he hit me first!" when asked to make up with his sibling. This is the kind of emotional, immature thinking non-Koreans have to deal with. Frankly I think 60 years is not enough; another 100 years is more like it.

False. Korea has no maps/documents of such sort regarding Liancourt Rocks prior to 1905. The maps/documents that you refer to are all relating to Ulleungdo and her nearby islets one of which is Jukdo. Korean maps are simply, a joke. They could not even get the position of Ulleungdo and Jukdo correctly let alone Liancourt Rocks.

It's funny they keep rehashing the same thing over and over again. Here's something simple to think about: there are Japanese AS WELL AS American, British, and German maps from the 19th Century that indicate that the Liancourt Rocks belong to Japan.

http://dokdo-or-takeshima.blogspot.com/2008/07/instant-history-of-liancourt-rocks-for.html

So for all of you Koreans and pro-Korea people who think otherwise, simply produce Korean, American, British, and German maps that indicate those islets belong to Korea. If you can do that I'll jump on your bandwagon faster than you can say "Cho Seung-hui." I'll be waiting.
hermitage at 09:12 AM JST - 23rd July

genjuro is correct. Japan already insisted on her rights about the island, when 李承晩(Syngman Rhee) drew his arbitrary, selfish territory line called Rhee Syngman's Line, and annexed Takeshima to S. Korea. Since then, Japan has proposed to solve the issue at ICJ.

I can understand S. Korea has her different idea about the island. Also, I can understand their anti-Japan sentiment that often surfaces (I'm not a supporter of the historical revisionists trying to justify Japan's bad conducts in the past).

Still, I wish S. Korean people understand the simple fact mentioned above, and I wish them to look at the reality not a fiction.
choseunghui at 04:46 PM JST - 23rd July

Hermitage and OssanULTRA,

I feel for both of you because both of you are killing yourselves trying to actually use logic and rational sense when discussing an issue with a Korean such as bibric or ecodrive. I have learned the hard way after many years of experience in Korea dealing with the Korean "mind" that trying to adopt the use of logic and rational debate when discussing matters with Koreans is almost impossible.

I hate to say it but it's like trying to explain to a child over and over again that Superman does not exist. With matters such as Dokdo/Takeshima, no matter how much amount of evidence and intellectual debate or emperical evidence you place in front of them, Koreans will refuse to accept, let alone even listen, to any opposing argument. The reason? Because in Korea, the concept of a person having an opinion that goes against the common government sponsored propaganda, xenophobic, racist, nationalist line of brainwashing does not exist and cannot be comprehended by the Korean mind.

For example, I have heard supposedly "educated" Koreans tell me that Hangeul is the world's most "scientifically advanced and intellectually superior" writing system. Of course for most people in first world, modern and intellectually progressive nations, anyone who said something so stupid and foolish as this claim would be taken as a fool. However, in Korea, pretty much the entire population actually believes this to be fact! I am not kidding you. And when you ask them to please explain and prove WHY this outrageous claim is true, Koreans will just answer "Because, we know it is true!"

If you come back and say that such a bold claim is very disputable since the Roman and Greek alphabets as well as the Arabic or Japanese writing systems could also disputably be the world's most scientifically advanced writing systems, Koreans will answer that there is no dispute at all. In fact, for a Korean, if a Korean side of an argument exists, then there is no dispute at all. Basically, their premise is that "Everything that we Koreans learn is the holy gospel and anything that foreigners say that disagrees with us is hogwash and is not worth hearing." I am not exaggerating even one bit. Thus, you can see what you are up against when you try to use a western or modern first-world approach at discussing Dokdo with a Korean. It's like trying to convince a child that the tooth fairy doesn't exist while he/she covers his/her years and humming a song, refusing to listen to the wise words of an adult.
choseunghui at 05:09 PM JST - 23rd July

The reason why Korea refuses to take their case to the ICJ is that Koreans are incapable of, let alone willing to try, understanding the concept of third party arbitration as a means of law enforcement.

Koreans have these conspiracy theories that settling this dispute about Dokdo in court would be meaningless or detrimental to the Korean side. The reason? Because, the Koreans are projecting their own ideas and cultural views of the law onto the international scene. Since the law is a complete joke and because judicial process/review amounts to jack squat in Korea, Koreans think that the same holds true in the international courts of justice and law in other countries. Koreans live in a society in which they see the law being a totally useless means for awarding justice and achievement. Koreans grow up seeing that in their society, the one who achieves justice or gets what he/she wants is not the person who obeys the law..it's the person who screams the loudest or has the most money. That's why Koreans hold these outrageous beliefs that Japan, being the stronger and richer nation, will somehow "win" in a Judicial Court System because that's how things are done in the Korean judicial system.

It's very sad..I know, but the reality.

Moderator: Please stay on topic and refrain from posting inflammatory comments.
JoeBigs at 10:14 AM JST - 24th July

choseunghui, you sir are corrrrect! The Korean and Korean supporters in this issue are irrational a petty. The bring up some of the oddest thing to complain about but never bring facts to back them up.

Got to wonder about the Korean school system when they teach their kids all about the wonders of the Korean war machine. But I digress and please forgive me.
choseunghui at 11:36 AM JST - 24th July
JoeBigs,

Well, take it from me...someone who actually has taught in the Korean school system and has seen the garbage that they try to pass off as "history" including such outrageous claims of the Korean War as as:
- The Korean War was not started by the invasion of the south by N. Korea, but by the invasion of the North by US troops. (Funny...US troops weren't even there)
- The US and Russia decided to start the Korean War because they could not let the ammunition leftover from WWII to go to waste.
- Korea singlehandedly defeated both Japan and N.Korea to win the Korean War. The US is not mentioned at all...even the atomic bombs. Thus, Koreans miraculously defeated Japan without US help.
- Kim Jong Il and Kim Il Sung are the most generous and kindest leaders in the world who only want peace and would never dream of harming others. They live humbly just like all of the common citizens in N. Korea.
- N. Korea is a utopian state where everyone is happy since there is no foreign influence at all. An ideal state is a purely Korean state.
Seriously, the stuff that Korean schools teach their children is downright frightening...Korean textbooks make Japanese textbooks look child's play when it comes to fabrication. It's all because of the highly successful ploys from N. Korean communist sympathizers who have been able to successfully and covertly through spying activities to infiltrate, influence and breed a whole generation of xenophobic and racist communist thinkers in the S. Korea teachers union.

That's what's really strange about the left wing in Korea compared to the leftists in other first world countries. In western first world countries, left wing socialists are the crusaders of equality among humans, the champions of basic rights for all humans, and champions for tolerance of all people regardless of race, ethnicity, creed, or religion.

However, the Korean left wing is nothing more than nationalistic, racist facists whose ideology would make even the Nazis, Uyoku Nationslists, or Ku Klux Klan lower their head in shame. Nothing liberal at all about Korea's left.