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Stalemate remains in Japan-U.S. talks on TPP

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Just wish Japan would nix these talks, and start doing individual deals with its neighbors instead.

They'd get a better deal if they did that and would dodge the TPP bullet.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

"Just wish Japan would nix these talks, and start doing individual deals with its neighbors instead. They'd get a better deal if they did that "

Free trade agreements aren't about getting a "better deal." They're about harmonization and achieving equal terms. Western Europe and N. America would still consist of separated, protected states with high tarrifs against each other if its governments had your -- and Japan's -- attitude.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

If the concept of the free trade is correct and pushed through, ultimately, Japan will become the 51st state of America.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

Just wish Japan would nix these talks, and start doing individual deals with its neighbors instead. They'd get a better deal if they did that and would dodge the TPP bullet.

Japan's neighbors won't agree to any individual deal because all such deals have failed in the past. In trade negotiations with Japan, the Japanese have always been "it's my way, or the highway". Look at how Australia just got screwed in their "free trade" agreement with Japan.

A main reason that Japan opposes TPP is because clauses in the agreement prohibit non-tariff barriers, including price-fixing. Japan will never give in on this because, despite being illlegal, price-fixing is a widespread cultural practice which permeates business and politics.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Free trade agreements aren't about getting a "better deal." They're about harmonization and achieving equal terms. Western Europe and N. America would still consist of separated, protected states with high tarrifs against each other if its governments had your -- and Japan's -- attitude.>

Except, TPP is not just a free trade agreement aimed at eliminating tariffs, and safety and health standards (so that American auto/food companies to compete with their Japanese counterparts). It is designed to bring structural changes to the signatories, as well.

Japan's universal health-care system could be undermined by the TPP's regulations on intellectual property; e.g., by signing TPP those patents on medicine and surgical techniques/technology can be extended indefinitely. This means that medical care becomes more expensive overall for Japan and could destroy the system.

Also, TPP comes complete with something called the investor-state dispute settlement, which allows companies to sue foreign governments if it perceives itself as being adversely affected by newly passed legislation. Australia had to deal with this with a tobacco company, and is fighting against the TPPs inclusion of an ISDS.

TPP is not good for Japan. Better to make its own individual FTA deals with its neighbors than to sign this POS and sell out its own citizens to American companies.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Japan would be foolish to accept this deal. I can understand them having to deal with American pressure in a lot of areas. But, these are not stupid people. I can not understand their seeming desire to obligate the nation to America’s regulatory regime and open the nation. Even the J-government itself indicates the estimate of GDP increase during the first decade will only be marginal. Japan’s own math shows hardly any economic benefits to be had from joining the TPP, and yet proponents of the trade pact depict it as a boon for manufacturers. In other words, the TPP’s potential for growing Japan’s exports and expanding its economy is so small as to be negligible.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Japan just wants to be able to export all its products without massive tariffs while being able to keep tariffs on agricultural products and what not here, as well as protect price-fixing institutions like health insurance companies. What they don't realize is that, with agriculture and cars, at least, people here are still mostly going to choose Japanese products, and people overseas will have easier access to said products as well. Japanese prefer 'made in Japan'.

Call it quits already and wait for Japan to come back begging in a decade or so after they've been left in the dust.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

Shopenhauer,

If the concept of the free trade is correct and pushed through, ultimately, Japan will become the 51st state of America.

It already is - in America's eyes.

Japanese politicians kowtow to their American handlers and they do just what they want - especially in Okinawa where there huge military presence has been stifling the economy for 70 years, and, in spite of protests from the local people, they plan to increase their military presence with a huge base in Henoko.

The article states that Obama wants to expand US presence in Asia. If so, a change of attitude is needed. Bluster and buildup of military force is not creating a good presence. A sincere apology for the bloodbath they created in Vietnam and an exchange of real communication that leads to understanding would accomplish this.

"You gotta buy our genetically modified supercorn," is the wrong attitude. "What do we have that you need? How can we help?" This is what is needed.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

TPP is not good for Japan. Better to make its own individual FTA deals with its neighbors than to sign this POS and sell out its own citizens to American companies.

The rules apply to all involved, other countries (such as Japan) may extend their patents, or sue when the details of the trade agreements are breached. This clause is necessary mainly because of Japan, and Japan's policy of erecting non- tariff barriers or simply ignoring details they previously agreed to.

The Japanese companies have been sellin out Japanese people for decades by forcing them to pay more for food, clothing, energy, services, etc.

But I agree that Japan should pull out. No other country in TPP wants Japan involved, due to past experiences involving trade deals with the Japanese. Japan will not change it's practice of taking all it can in trade agreements, and giving little to nothing in return.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

Japan just wants to be able to export all its products without massive tariffs while being able to keep tariffs on agricultural products and what not here, as well as protect price-fixing institutions like health insurance companies.

smithinjapan -- spot on. It's called a "managed economy" and has been the Japanese model for decades. The problem for Japan is that trade agreements are based on the concept of free trade. Something that the Japanese economy/companies are just completely unprepared for. Having a protected home market has always been a corner-stone of Japanese corporate and economic strategy. And the U.S. Congress is never going to accept a deal like what Australia got, or what is being mentioned here.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Ah, Japan! When will these wombats learn that that are not the center of the universe and Japan needs international trade a lot more than the world needs Japanese trade? The agricultural sector in Japan is just a money pit of subsidies and price fixing. If Japan opens it up to allow international produce into the markets, especially rice, it will put a lot more pressure on Japan's already failed pension and welfare system. Personally, I think the US should just cut Japan out of it altogether and let the swines wallow in their own muck.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

This clause is necessary mainly because of Japan, and Japan's policy of erecting non- tariff barriers or simply ignoring details they previously agreed to.>

It has nothing to do with Japan, specifically, because Japan was not an original signatory of the TPP.

The Japanese companies have been sellin out Japanese people for decades by forcing them to pay more for food, clothing, energy, services, etc.>

Selling them out by protecting Japanese goods and domestic companies? Those fiends!

Also, "I wish I could buy cheap rice and beef from America!" said no Japanese person ever.

No other country in TPP wants Japan involved,>

Yeah...no, that's not right at all. Japan is still a huge market, and if Japan pulls out it would deal a SEVERE blow to the TPP. Plenty of people want Japan involved. But glad we agree that Japan should pull out of the talks.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

The Japanese tendency to reach decisions by consensus hampers trade and works against Japanese consumers, keeping prices high. And because a consensus is required in a given area where the U.S. would like to open up competition, if there are businesses in that area that would rather not have competition, they're often able to carry the day.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Selling them out by protecting Japanese goods and domestic companies? Those fiends!

MGigante -- exactly. Confirms my post 100%. Japanese companies are incapable of competing on a level playing field -- just look up the domestic efficiency of Japanese companies -- so they must be protected, as you say. So Japan has no business in even pretending it wants to be part of a true "free trade" agreement. Japan values full employment over lower prices, and the only way to do that is to have prices for things like rice, apples, meat, sugar, wheat, beef, etc, many, many times the world price. So let's just admit that and move on, as you say.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Japan values full employment over lower prices

It sounds like you are saying this as if it's a bad thing.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

@Jerseyboy,

And I don't entirely disagree with you. Full-employment is best for Japan's citizens by a country mile and Japanese society will better served by their current system than the one that will come under TPP, as congress envisions it.

That said, free trade agreements are meant to decrease barriers to trade, not necessarily remove them completely.

In any case, I don't think TPP is the answer for Japan unless the US government grants Japan concessions.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Since when is beef a sacred subject here? The oily, often smelly wagyu was made for a postwar market that couldn't afford meat regularly so it was made as a special "treat" and was never a staple of the local diet. How typical of protectionist Japan to try to trump this up as a cultural product for special protection! Don't relent, America!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Let’s just put aside whether TPP is good or bad for a minute. (I'll get it latter) TPP was designed as the economic leg of the US Asia rebalance (a.k.a Asia pivot). Japan knows Washington’s intent fully well. So Japan can't have its cake and eat it too.

Personally, I think TPP is beyond saving at this point.becuase it's a raw deal for every country except for the big companies behind. Even Japan or the US finally makes a concession and thus clinches a deal right before Obama’s visit to Japan, TPP will still face significant resistance in the US Congress. Given the current political climate in the Capitol Hill, getting TPP to be ratified would be like to roll a dice.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Wake up boys and girls, America is bankrupt and needs to keep on printing paper money and needs another conflict or create one. Sign up and bend over or otherwise is typically what's gonna happen. Stop the lunacy, whatever the promis is, it's not gonna be good for the people nor by the people.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The bottom line is that although both countries protect their markets, Japan is far more protectionist of it's domestic economy than the US. If US rice, beef and cars (or whatever) are so inferior why doesn't Japan lower barriers? Let the Japanese people decide with their wallets and pocketbooks.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@bertie

It already is - in America's eyes.

So now you are speaking for 350 million Americans? WT....

Japanese politicians kowtow to their American handlers and they do just what they want

No, they don't. If they did, The Stars and Stripes would be flying on that Island, but it's NOT.

The article states that Obama wants to expand US presence in Asia. If so, a change of attitude is needed. Bluster and buildup of military force is not creating a good presence. A sincere apology for the bloodbath they created in Vietnam and an exchange of real communication that leads to understanding would accomplish this.

So you'd rather have a possible hostile China or your doorsteps? As for Vietnam, there is a lot of blame to go around on both sides, but the U.S. has been doing more trade and the communication has gotten a lot better. We have an Embassy now in Hanoi, so things have improved quite significantly.

"You gotta buy our genetically modified supercorn," is the wrong attitude. "What do we have that you need? How can we help?" This is what is needed.

You are already doing that in Japan or maybe you just don't want to acknowledge that. I grow my own veggies because I see recently a lot of unnatural stuff in the produce section.

@aholl

Wake up boys and girls, America is bankrupt and needs to keep on printing paper money and needs another conflict or create one.

Conflict?? Our president??? ROFL

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Selling them out by protecting Japanese goods and domestic companies? Those fiends!

You do realize that Japanese companies actually charge more for their domestic consumers than abroad.

Also, "I wish I could buy cheap rice and beef from America!" said no Japanese person ever.

If the price is cheaper, then I'm sure most consumers would choose the cheaper option.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

It sounds like you are saying this as if it's a bad thing.

Strangerland -- yes, I am. Japanese desire to strive for full employment over lower prices has led to a situation where its domestic industries are un-competitive. Which, with the world moving towards a global economy, with more and more free trade agreements being the norm rather than the exception, it puts Japan in a very poor position. Companies that should have gone under years ago, surely you've heard of "zombie" companies, have been propped up by huge loans and government bailouts. So capital that could have gone to potentially higher-return businesses/start-ups, has been wasted. Which makes Japan even less competitive on a global basis. Japan is still betting on Sony, while the world has moved on, even Japan, to Apple. Or Samsung. Japan is simply trying to put its fingers in all the holes in the dike, rather than really solving the root problems.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

"What do we have that you need? How can we help?" This is what is needed.

We have plentiful, inexpensive food. Japan needs this.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

While I am not 100% behind TPP its whats on the table here now, SO, the US would be stupid to cave into Japan like they have done for decades, they need to remain STRONG.

And if necessary show Japan the door!

As others have said the Japan economy is STRONGLY protected from competition especially by non-tariff barriers & this has put Japan in a VERY WEAK state, its own damned fault PERIOD!!

And we who live here DAILY pay an enormous price for this incompetent inefficient bloated layers of non-sense.

Not only does Japan need to be shown the door if they wont play ball regarding TPP, BUT other countries should seriously look at import duties on MIJ products to show Japan the REAL costs of their selfish ways, this has been decades in coming, time is now for Japan to play more fairly or told to bugger off.

Japan's power is fading fast the rest of the world is less & less willing to put up with Japan's BS!

So Japan what are YOU going to do!

3 ( +5 / -2 )

bfg4987Apr. 19, 2014 - 11:35AM JST We have plentiful, inexpensive food. Japan needs this.

No, what it needs is reasonably priced, good quality, safe and healthy food. The U.S. does NOT have that. Just take the avocados that my local grocery imports from the U.S. They're small and bitter, and go from hard and inedible to brown and inedible in just over 2 days, with a "ripe and barely edible" period of about 2 hours... normally between 2 and 4am judging by the fact that I check them at night and they're brown right the way through by the morning.

Japan can source much cheaper fruit and meat from developing economies in Africa, the Philippines, Thailand, India, etc. Until the U.S. can add the "safe" and "good quality" labels it is just offering comparatively expensive products that no-one wants to buy.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

Sign TPP and you will hear the "giant sucking sound."

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Just take the avocados that my local grocery imports from the U.S. They're small and bitter, and go from hard and inedible to brown and inedible in just over 2 days, with a "ripe and barely edible" period of about 2 hours... normally between 2 and 4am judging by the fact that I check them at night and they're brown right the way through by the morning.

So your anecdotal experience of one product from one local grocery store Is enough to prove that an entire nation is full of garbage produce?

I'll see your anecdote and raise you mine. In the grocery stores near me, you have your choice between America-grown (usually California) and Japan-grown broccoli. The American broccoli is larger, has more flowers, and has fewer brown spots than the Japanese broccoli.

The anti-GMO hype has done a good job of convincing a lot of otherwise intelligent people that the science isn't true. U.S. food is just as healthy and safe as anywhere else in the world, as is broadly agreed on by scientists. http://www.aaas.org/news/aaas-board-directors-legally-mandating-gm-food-labels-could-%E2%80%9Cmislead-and-falsely-alarm http://www.genetics.org/content/188/1/11.long http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306919210000254

2 ( +5 / -3 )

And I don't entirely disagree with you. Full-employment is best for Japan's citizens by a country mile and Japanese society will better served by their current system than the one that will come under TPP, as congress envisions it.

TPP was not startedy congress or Washington, indeed, the US congress does not support Obama's allowing Japan to join TPP.

Full employment is causing a precipitous decline in the quality of life in Japan. Japan ranks at the bottom of the list in purchasing parity among developed nations, and the cost of subsidies to offset other costs has saddled Japan with a national debt which is two and a half times GDP.

TPP was originally designed to be a zero-tariff agreement between the countries involved, and that is still tbe goal for most members.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Let's sidebar the TPP discussion and other FTAs for just a moment. Because that conversation just gets in a "Japan is the 51st American State" discussion.

The agricultural sector of Japan is in dire straits, and current Japanese policy is actually inhibiting growth, efficiency, and the ability to react to markets, not just international markets, but domestic markets as well.

Take a few facts down for future reference:

2010 (Japan) The average farmer is now 66 years old 83% of rice farmers are over 60 8% of rice farmers are under 60 23% of farm households are full time 62% of farm households are part time - (less than 50% of the income is from farming) 1.1 hectare is the average size of a rice farm in Japan

You can't sit here and tell me the whole reason not to join the TPP is to project this system of farming. Whether or not Japan joins anymore FTAs, this system is going to go extinct on it's own as farmers literally die off.

A little more food for thought:

2010 (Japan) Households with farm income are 21% higher than the national average (mostly because part time farms provide extra income from subsidies) 1/3 of rice paddy land wasn't used for rice production (to protect pricing) of the 1/3 of unused land, 38% wasn't used at all in the same year, 1.2 million farms received a rice subsidy, regardless of the size of their crop. Before 2010 this was limited to larger farms, and only 17,000 farms received it.

In other words, there is no incentive to become a more efficient, dynamic farmer in Japan. Just do exactly what the government asks you to produce (or not produce) and you can potentially earn more than your non-farming neighbors.

This is what's hurting the agricultural sector, and before Japan does anything internationally, they need to be introduced to the concept that competition can revive the sector. You can't just rely on tariffs and quotas, and tightening up anytime the world asks for a better trade deal.

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/5k46957l0rf4.pdf?expires=1397872790&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=31B6C51DDE694256D42B711C42C7463D

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@GW

Makes perfect logical sense to me.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

My feeling is that any so called " broader regional trade pact " wouldn't be easy if it consists some kind of political sense and obveriously TPP is this kind of " trade" pact ! For example, Taiwan has told the US 100 times it's interested to join it and Taiwan also told Japan, Australia... samething but it seems nobody could reply positively, isn't Taiwan important trading partner to the US and Japan.... ? So, is this a real trading pact? ok, just forget it since it seems not welcome anyway!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I am not sure that they even need to bother getting Japan on board here even though I see some problems with the TPP as is. Japan will eventually be bypassed in various trade agreements to their overall detriment while protecting special interests.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

True free trade deals, which have no tariffs whatsoever, are difficult to approve because they remove power and influence from both regulators and special interests. The subsidies governments provide to farmers are not provided to protect the farmers, they are simply money exchanged for votes. In case no one is aware, there is a formula used in Japan when counting votes. Votes from farmers and those who live in rural areas are worth more than votes from city dwellers. And as the older people who live in the country vote more frequently than those who live in the city, they have a disproportionate amount of power.

Before Japan became involved, TPP was a simple free trade agreement between the member states, with zero tariffs on goods. Japan was never considered for membership in the program, indeed, no other country wanted Japan involved. Even America did not support Japan entering TPP, mainly because everyone knows from long experience that Japan has never supported free trade in any way, shape, or form, except of course if it is free for Japanese goods, and does not apply to foreign goods.

I wonder who in the powerful Japanese trade lobby in Washington twisted Obama's arm to let Japan into TPP? The US needs to be as inflexible as Japan has been for the last 50 years. If Japan cannot agree, then they should be quickly shown the door. All other countries involved are ready to conclude the talks, only Japan is haggling. Japan must be told that either they sign the agreement as is agreed to by all other parties right now, or get the hell out. For Japan's sake, I hope they sign, for everyone else's sake, I hope Japan leaves the talks.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Strangerland -- yes, I am. Japanese desire to strive for full employment over lower prices has led to a situation where its domestic industries are un-competitive. Which, with the world moving towards a global economy, with more and more free trade agreements being the norm rather than the exception, it puts Japan in a very poor position. Companies that should have gone under years ago, surely you've heard of "zombie" companies, have been propped up by huge loans and government bailouts. So capital that could have gone to potentially higher-return businesses/start-ups, has been wasted. Which makes Japan even less competitive on a global basis. Japan is still betting on Sony, while the world has moved on, even Japan, to Apple. Or Samsung. Japan is simply trying to put its fingers in all the holes in the dike, rather than really solving the root problems.

If you choose cheap prices over full employment, you end up in a situation where some of the people can afford to buy more, and others can't afford to buy anything. With full employment, everyone has a job to support themselves. Globalization has lead to a thinning of the middle class, and rising levels of employment. I think Japan has the right idea trying to keep their people employed.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

bfg4987Apr. 19, 2014 - 12:01PM JST I'll see your anecdote and raise you mine. In the grocery stores near me, you have your choice between America-grown (usually California) and Japan-grown broccoli. The American broccoli is larger, has more flowers, and has fewer brown spots than the Japanese broccoli.

And what about the broccoli from other countries, like India, which produces 32% of broccoli in the world, or China, which produces 43% of the world supply, and is far cheaper? Japanese soil is over-farmed and mineral-poor. I didn't advocate eating Japanese vegetables, I questioned whether the U.S. could offer superior products at the same or lower prices than competing countries in the TPP. The short answer is that they can't. The only thing they could offer would be food safety, a big issue in Japan.

That was my objection to the previous poster, that he was claiming that U.S. good was "cheap", which it isn't. It is cheaper than the horrendously overpriced Japanese food, but against other countries offering the same products it is expensive, and the quality is not noticeably better.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

If you choose cheap prices over full employment, you end up in a situation where some of the people can afford to buy more, and others can't afford to buy anything. With full employment, everyone has a job to support themselves. Globalization has lead to a thinning of the middle class, and rising levels of employment. I think Japan has the right idea trying to keep their people employed.

Strangerland -- understand your opinion. Obviously you believe in a socialist model rather than a capitalist one. That is fine. But the point I think you are missing is that Japan cannot continue to play the game they have historically played, which is to insist on free trade for their exports -- capitalism -- but want to protect their home market -- socialism. (Japan has never cared about all the folks in other countries who lost jobs due to their exports.) And the TPP is clearly a capitalism-based model. So Japan needs to either fish or cut bait.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Thomas, about meat,

If the price is cheaper, then I'm sure most consumers would choose the cheaper option.

You are wrong in your assumption.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

What can the US really sell Japan but Boeing jets, military equipment and produce. The idea that Japan would have any use for the piss poor US made cars and trucks is a joke. The US auto industry is an orphan child with great political muscle just as the Japanese famer makes the government quake in their boots. The only sensible approach is to forget about importing US cars and for the Japanese government to have the cajones to stand up to the farmers and allow US produce to flood into the country. Afterall, a country of rugged hills and mountains with a population busting at the seams seems like a poor place to raise food in large enough plots so the fruits and vegatbles can sell the produce for affordable prices. I have driven through central California for more than 5 miles (8 kilometers) and have still not passed a tomato farm. The same can be said for most any vegetable, fruit or nut crop. That's not going to happen in Japan, land is too scarce and valuable.

Why do we need trade agreements? Simple to prevent China from undercutting Asian and North American products and further dominating both continents. It's OK to have cheap crap, but when no one has a job, how do they pay for China's goods? The average worker in those gawdawful Chinese factory cities or capitalism zones works 60+ hours a week for $300-400 a month in an area with horrible pollution. Do you want wages in Japan to fall that low in order to compete pricewise, with all the polluted water, air and land? Increasing trade in both directions, eliminating barriers increases employment while boosting economies. Japan will always have a favorable balance of trade with the US, so have no fear.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Steve WesternApr. 20, 2014 - 12:08AM JST Why do we need trade agreements? Simple to prevent China from undercutting Asian and North American products and further dominating both continents. It's OK to have cheap crap, but when no one has a job, how do they pay for China's goods? The average worker in those gawdawful Chinese factory cities or capitalism zones works 60+ hours a week for $300-400 a month in an area with horrible pollution. Do you want wages in Japan to fall that low in order to compete pricewise, with all the polluted water, air and land? Increasing trade in both directions, eliminating barriers increases employment while boosting economies. Japan will always have a favorable balance of trade with the US, so have no fear.

And why is China the enemy here? Because the U.S. says so? Japan does a lot of trade with China, as does the U.S. If you look carefully you'll see that most of the stuff is made in China.

The bottom line here is that the U.S. wants to block China's economy but doesn't want to sacrifice any of their industries... but is quite happy to destabilise the Japanese economy to achieve a small and temporary gain against China. Their tactics are short-sighted and frankly idiotic, but that's pretty much been the hallmark of U.S. foreign policy for the last four decades, short-term wins for long-term losses.

Western countries and Japan have been invading, manipulating and generally taking a dump on China for the last 200 years.... and then they're acting all surprised when China acts aggressively. This TPP is just a continuation of the same patterns continued into economics. If they want to create another pre-WW1 Germany they're going exactly the right way about it.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

And what about the broccoli from other countries, like India, which produces 32% of broccoli in the world, or China, which produces 43% of the world supply, and is far cheaper?

Check the data, those countries hardly export ANY of that broccoli. Like, we're barely talking in terms of percentage points, here. Which only makes logical sense, seeing as though they do have a billion people each. http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/MannUsda/viewDocumentInfo.do?documentID=1816

That was my objection to the previous poster, that he was claiming that U.S. good was "cheap", which it isn't They can't get the quantity of food they can from the U.S. from those other countries.

Yes, it is, and yes, they can. I'm not really sure where you get off saying they can't get the quantity they need from the U.S., seeing as the U.S. IS the largest agricultural exporter in the world. China and India consume most of their produce domestically.

And why is China the enemy here? Because the U.S. says so?

Because they play dirty. China is a cesspool of pollution and corruption. Everyone knows this.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

"The U.S. does NOT have that. Just take the avocados that my local grocery imports from the U.S. They're small and bitter, and go from hard and inedible to brown and inedible in just over 2 days, with a "ripe and barely edible" period of about 2 hours..."

Given the anti-USA tirades you upload here on a daily basis, why would you go out of your way to buy avocados made in that country? Just to make a point on Japan Today?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

And why is China the enemy here? Because the U.S. says so? Japan does a lot of trade with China, as does the U.S. If you look carefully you'll see that most of the stuff is made in China.

This is very true. However, China is a bit unstable and always, especially recently, enigmatic. Russia was doing quite a bit of trade with the U.S. As well and looked what happened. There is always that possibility, never underestimate China. Doing so would be grossly naive.

"The U.S. does NOT have that. Just take the avocados that my local grocery imports from the U.S. They're small and bitter, and go from hard and inedible to brown and inedible in just over 2 days, with a "ripe and barely edible" period of about 2 hours..."

I'm from California, my parents have an avocado tree in their garden, I don't know what avocados you were eating, but ours are always smooth, creamy and mild. If you eat them too early, they can be bitter, but usually you wait a few days depending on your taste. The ripening process starts once you pick it from the tree. I like mine really soft, so I wait for a week, it just all depends on your taste. We would eat them almost everyday. For awhile, I couldn't eat them because I over endulged myself with eating them everyday. I think you were sold a bad crop perhaps.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

And why is China the enemy here? Because the U.S. says so? Japan does a lot of trade with China.

Clearly you have never taken an Economics course, nor do you know anything about the global marketplace. I'll go slow and maybe you will understand. China will always be able to make cheaper items than Japan or North America (Canada is in the same boat as the US) meaning they can undercut virtually every other manufacturing country in the world. They do so by paying average wages that are 1/4 to 1/15th of what the same job pays in first world countries. They also have NO environmental regulations to insure employees are working in a safe, clean, factory, or that the heavy metal pollution of the water and air is restricted or controlled. So then why don't we let the lowest price win out, who cares about working conditions, or how many hours an employee must work to keep their job or even if the air is so thick you could walk on it? (check out the 25 most polluted places in the world, China has more than half). Well if we let them make all the cars, steel, electronics, construction materials, etc, then the countries that buy will have extremely high unemployment, boarded up factories, and people with no money to buy the Chinese imports. Get It? Japan has excellent technology and first class quality control of what is made in the country, but they see all those jobs being lost to third world countries in the same way the US lost manufacturing jobs to Japan in the 50's and 60's when China was as closed to the outside as North Korea is today. The US is a food power house and along with Boeing aircraft and military items those three categories make up the leading exports to the rest of the world. Think of bartering, we send you aircraft and you send us steel and high tech products. Then we both have employment and prosperity, BINGO? The agreement is meant to protect what North America sells to Japan and what Japan sells to North America protecting jobs and creating prosperity.

There are no bad guys or good guys just reality.

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But the point I think you are missing is that Japan cannot continue to play the game they have historically played, which is to insist on free trade for their exports -- capitalism -- but want to protect their home market -- socialism.

Maybe, maybe not. They've done it pretty well until now, and while people keep saying 'you have to change', if they work it right, they don't have to at all.

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And why is China the enemy here? Because the U.S. says so? Japan does a lot of trade with China.

Politically, yes or do you know something that the Pentagon and Washington doesn't?

Maybe, maybe not. They've done it pretty well until now, and while people keep saying 'you have to change', if they work it right, they don't have to at all.

"If" but they didn't and that won't change anytime soon. So it the long run, it would be the best thing for Japan to change, unless it wants to far further behind the rest of the industrialized world.

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I guess it depends on whether you want to keep up with the Joneses, or find your own way to be happy.

Just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

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@Strangerland

Maybe, maybe not. They've done it pretty well until now, and while people keep saying 'you have to change', if they work it right, they don't have to at all

I guess it depends on whether you want to keep up with the Joneses, or find your own way to be happy. Just because everyone else is doing it, doesn't mean it's a good idea

I think that's not exactly correct, though it sounds pleasant.

Let's say you have a plot of land suited for growing vegetables and rice. But the government says we'll guarentee you a cash payment if you grow rice, and you'll make a profit regardless, but not vegetables.

The truth is, you actually want to grow vegetables, but you are worried about selling your crop for a profit.

So instead, you just decide to grow rice. And then sell the rice for a guarenteed price year after year.

The truth is, rice is overpriced in Japan for Japanese consumers, but no one is trying to get more efficient at it because the government assures rice farmers will be paid.

The system "works" in that Japan decides to produce only a certain amount of rice every year, and rice farmers get money.

But what doesn't work is when the government is wrong about how much rice to grow. For any rice Japan imports, there is something like a 600% tariff.

The problem is the world price for commodities changes year after year, and some countries gain competitive advantages in producing them. When you don't participate in the world market, the prices for goods and commodities in your country become artificially high (and almost never lower)

So in other words, why is it acceptable to buy Apple iPhones and Chinese made goods at low cost, but refuse to budge when it comes to commodities and automobiles? If America behaved this way, there would be no Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans on the road, and American automakers would never have to compete with Japan.

This kind of trade protectionism stifles innovation, and keeps prices high in countries that do so.

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Thanks for the clear, easy to understand explanation.

I now get the concept of what you are saying, I just don't really see the problem. I can see how it's a problem for those wanting to sell their rice in Japan, but I don't see how it's really a problem for Japan.

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I don't see how it's really a problem for Japan.

The cost of living here is much, much, MUCH higher than it needs to be, and for no reason other than to protect an inefficient industry that refuses to innovate. Japanese consumers are being hurt badly.

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I agree with bfg4987.

And like I was saying with just a vegetables or rice example. The other thing to consider, (and this is not precise real life example) but let's say your country's farmers are now not growing as many vegetables anymore, this also means there are fewer at the market, and according to basic supply and demand, the less of something at the market, the higher the price will be.

In other words, not only does domestic rice become more expensive because there is a quota limiting production. In addition because people are actually getting paid by the government to grow the correct amount of rice, less people participate in growing other commodities. Therefore, other commodities ALSO get more expensive, because no one wants to produce them.

The real world economy is obviously much more complicated, but this is why countries seek competitive advantage where their nation accelerates. If Japan accepted this concept, there would obviously be some growing pains at first, but by avoiding it, the market will continue to tilt to higher and higher prices.

Meanwhile, farmers are aging, and the workforce is not expanding, it is actually shrinking. That's why this becomes a problem for Japan. They need to face the fact their method of agriculture is way outdated, and they need to expand the size of their farms and let the market have a little more control. (not 100% control, America and Europe also provide subsidies and aid, just not to the drastic extent that Japan has so I have read)

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