Sunday May 27, 2012

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  • 0

    mareo2

    Is "business", selling entertaiment with sex is profitable like violence. But the age of consent in Japan is 13 years old, below that is clearly wrong. In my opinion there must to be a clear limit, the "lolicon" fantasy is going to far.

  • 0

    HonestDictator

    I'm not voting on this. Only 2 choices and its not that black and white. Manga= comic books. Its obscene graphich illustrations, even the "graphic" novels in the US have the same "minor" depictions. Better choices please.

  • 0

    Zenny11

    I am with HonestDictator.

    Too few choices, also the answer would need to depend on each depiction.

    I think most people here are familiar with David Hamiltons work, some places banned him for being pornographic otherr refer to him as a great artist.

    Same could be said for many great art-treasures throughout history.

    Just too many factors and not enough specifics to make a 2-answer poll, IMHO.

  • 0

    moonbeams

    If you've seen what are in some of these comics, you know it's obscenity. It's an insult to artists to call this art. It's just a physical manifestation of perversions.

  • 0

    greysnow

    I voted art!

  • 0

    Zenny11

    Personally I would also go for art.

    And there is a Lot of art I don't agree with like Stuff made from elephant dung, etc.

    Granted some of the publications should be banned as they cross the border but there is also a LOT of Manga(comics), doujinshi, etc that are done tasteful and should be left alone.

    BTW, I support a ban on Japan, when the USA and other countries implement the same level of ban.

    So, IMHO, a blanket ban is the wrong thing to do.

  • 0

    Mark_McCracken

    Art or obscenity?

    Both.

  • 0

    HonestDictator

    @Moonbeams Instead of "physical" how about "fictional" manifestations. Can't persecute someone for "killing" a "person" in a fictional setting such as books, movies, video games, etc. It's the old, "This is reality, that is fiction" argument.

    We just need to make sure to regulate it properly so that real minors don't get access to things that are for "mature" audiences only. And second we need to persecute those that decide they can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

  • 0

    kujiranikusuki

    Look at EVA. The main characters are basically sold as sex symbols. You can find body pillows of Rei or Asuka among other examples. These girls are only 14. No one seems to have a problem with arguing which one they "like" more.

  • 0

    Disillusioned

    Let's just call it, obscene art. While the art can be quite clever the admires of this art do not give two hoots about the art, only the obscenity.

  • 0

    Xeno23

    Neither. Both. Depends. Are comic books / manga art? Obscenity as defined by who? I had an Art professor who said anything anyone calls Art is Art; that doesn't mean it's good or bad, high or low; just that it is. Stifling Art always leads to loss of freedom.

    Obscenity is typically defined by a well-intended special interest who either think they know better than the rest of society, or think they can speak for the rest of society; how often do they ask? Banning stuff always drives it underground, into precisely the realms we probably don't want them to go; it usually makes things worse.

    Protect the innocent, of course; but we've never been very good at that - ever. I'm not sure we know how without gumming up other things, like freedom and reason. Anyway, sexualization of minors? Uh, off-hand, I'd say we've been doing it pretty much for as long as we've been around; think about that.

  • 0

    Bholder

    where's the third option: art of obscenity

  • 0

    realist

    Sexual images in manga, or anywhere else, are all obscenity. I think pornographic manga should be banned, and the reading of this filth should be especially banned on trains.

  • 0

    ChrisBiggins

    Pure vulgarity and filth, to be enjoyed be immoral vulgar men. I abhor this kind of stuff, worldwide blanket ban please.

  • 0

    BurakuminDes

    Anyone who believes it is OK to depict children in a sexual way should be put away! Yes - all you guys who voted "art"!

  • 0

    HonestDictator

    These choices suck BurakuminDes, its not art, but its still ink on paper/paint on paper etc. I don't know much about freedom of expression in Japan (I doubt they even have such a law) but no real person/adult or minor is being harmed. Focus more on the real children in the real world that are being abused and molested cos I doubt ink on paper causes pedophiles to be pedophiles. Even if this didn't exist pedophiles will still be attacked real children because they're making their sick fantasies reality.

  • 0

    ChrisBiggins

    HonestDictator, The images breed perversity and make thsoe beasts who enjoy young children believe it to be acceptable as it is legal. This leads to abuse by the ghastly filth that buy this depraved peadophilia.

  • 0

    BTTSimon

    A couple of years back my friend and I decided to do as the Japanese do and pick a few manga of the combini shelf and read them with out buying. Where I come from this is not allowed. We flicked through the manga and found a few pages of depicted art of children being raped and forced to do the business with guns to their head...... this is not art, it’s some person sick idea of a dark and twisted fantasy!!!

  • 0

    BTTSimon

    oh I forgot to add that the poor illustrated girl was blown through the head with the gun once the illustrated man had finished with her.... Again NOT ART!!!!

  • 0

    HonestDictator

    Thats what you think ChrisBiggins, but let me remind you. In movies and TV programs, as well as video games children have been in depictions of murder, molested and raped... and yet would you still claim that its what motivates pedophiles to do these things?
    I personally hear enough about things happening in reality on the news, and yet even in the US and other countries people make movies, films, comics, movies like, "The lovely bones", "The house on the left", "Lolita", TV series like "Buffy the vampire slayer" "CSI", video games etc. where minors are depicted in many of these types of "adult" situations. These do not inspire pedophiles to do such things, because as I said, even if these were non-existant, pedophiles would still be creating child pornography using real children, which is even more disgusting and an even worse situation than someone depicting a fictional character where no real person was used.

    You're using the same excuse that murderers are inspired by depictions of murder in the media, or rapists are inspired by depictions of rape in the media, etc. While I totally agree this should not be considered art, it does imitate life (unfortunately) to a certain extent. We hear enough about children being abused, murdered, etc on the news. But as I said before, fiction is FICTION, real life is REAL LIFE. People can and will do anything they want or can dream up in fiction, but they can not do such things in real life. If someone does such things in real life the problem is they were not stable in their heads in the first place.

  • 0

    TuxedoMichael

    Anyone who thinks Japanese Manga and Anime is sick and obscene is unfortunately narrow-minded.

    The Japanese traditionally are open-minded about sexuality and long before Manga and Anime, they drew erotic artworks called shunga mostly of women into sexual congress with a giant squid.

    Anyone thinks that the Japanese are perverse would know how THEY see US! THEY mostly think we Americans are violent, heavy-drinking, woman-beating, gun-wielding, Bible-pounding cowboys!

    Remember the incident long ago with the Texas guy gunning down a Japanese exchange student because he trick-or-treated at the wrong house? So, next time we bad-mouth somone's else culture, think about how ours is first.

    I loved Manga and Anime since I was a kid. I'm an avid fan. It's art, plain and simple.

  • 0

    ChrisBiggins

    TuxedoMichael, better not to assume all foreigners are American,i am not.

  • 0

    kujiranikusuki

    lets all just agree that in the end its really just your own opinion. If you see something you don't like. Don't look. Other than the images you see on the front of some mags at the combini you are not forced to look at the stuff. Their is no gray line here either. When it comes to manga they have done just about anything you can imagine and stuff you would have never imagined. plenty of if crosses the line. The thing is we all draw our OWN lines. TuxedoMike: I would never ever say its art plain and simple. There is nothing plain and simple about it. I can guarantee you plenty of the people making hentei out there wont even call it art, they will call it a job that puts food on the table and that's about it. If they don't even call it art how can you. Well maybe you can. Then we get into the debate that if anything one thinks anything is art then it is art. That is not a plain and simple argument.

  • 0

    Clock222

    Some people just do not seem to understand that it depends on the manga in question.

    Try asking it like this : Sexual descriptions of minors in novels: Art or obscenity?

    What do people think of Romeo and Juliet, by the way? (14 and 15)

  • 0

    AlfGarnett

    clock222, O reckon you will find Romeo and Juliet don`t have rape scebes abd stuff like that.

  • 0

    farhaan

    I am shock to see that more than half of the voters voted it is 'Art'. I didn't know that more than 50% of the people think that way.

  • 0

    Clock222

    Wiki : Romeo and Juliet Romeo secretly spends the night in Juliet's chamber, where they consummate their marriage. Romeo is 15 and Juliet is 14 here, when they fall in love, secretly get married, and 'consummate their marriage'. The bill wasn't just about 'rape scenes and stuff like that', you know.

  • 0

    HonestDictator

    I'm more concerned about the issues I've heard where real children are being put in bikinis and having "gravure" photos taken of them in suggestive positions with their parents consent. I'd file that under exploitation of real children.

    kujiranikusuki, exactly spot on with that. I don't expose myself to things I don't like. Many other people don't look at what they don't like if they don't have too. Nobody forces anyone to take actions that they don't want to. I don't go to auto shows that have women draped on cars because I don't like seeing women draped on cars. Others may like seeing women draped on cars. People need to keep their fantasies to themselves, and not try to act out their fantasies in the real world. I'm pretty sure most things people imagine would be illegal in the real world. I can't tell you how many times I've fantasized about hacking the lottory machines so I could win the jackpot!!! But of course its illegal if I were to actually attempt it. xD

  • 0

    grafton

    Art or obscenity?

    That’s asking a bit much isn’t it? The reality must be yes and no, depending on an image by image basis. Beyond that there is nothing anybody could say. Though some will judge emotionally rather than rationally

    ChrisBiggins at 02:48 PM JST - 14th June

    “Pure vulgarity and filth, to be enjoyed be immoral vulgar men. I abhor this kind of stuff, worldwide blanket ban please.”

    You are being a touch extremist toady aren’t you and you have no evidence to back up your claim that one leads to the other when you say that depiction leads to the crime. Because there is no such evidence. By the way can you at least stay in one character mode within each thread? Changing you personality hardly enhances the credibility of anything that you write.

  • 0

    gonemad

    Art or obscenity? Both, neither or either of them and the judgement will vary with time. Simple answers are for simple minds.

  • 0

    Clock222

    Since 'Sexual images of minors in manga' can mean almost anything, including a fictional busty 17 year old manga girl in a swimsuit playing beach vollyball, I would have to say a big loud 'NO!' to the 'Obscenity' button. And no, I don't think the image of a sixteen year old manga heroine smooching her 16 year old boyfriend is 'obscene', either, really.

  • 0

    Clock222

    The kind of manga (and anime) that could have been deemed de facto 'x-rated' by this bill included stuff like :

    A very famous manga in which one of the running gags is that the 11 year old main charactor (male) keeps just happening to end up in situations in which he catches glimpses of his cute classmate taking a bath. She usually throws some water at him when this happens.

    Mangas in which the high schoolers are in love with each other. They're attracted to each other! And they're even smooching! OMG!

    Mangas in which attractive highschool girls (and boys) in swimsuits and such appear. (Especially if the manga girls have 'big assets'...)

    Mangas serialized in maganizes for businessmen, businesswoman or housewives and such which have descriptions of 20something charactors being a couple - But no! Some people have decreed that they look like they might be under 18, even if they're clearly shown to be working in a company!

  • 0

    Zenny11

    That bill would also ban some movies/Manga like some scenes from Evangelion, Stratos 4, etc.

    Wonder if Doujinshi would be included?

  • 0

    hoserfella

    "Art" what a crock. If so, why are the majority of people who read this drivel men? Little girls with Big boobs. End of story. By the way, anyone over the age of 16 who buys manga at all need to re-evaluate their lives.

  • 0

    Clock222

    Well, the Tokyo M people did say DJ's wouldn't be affected, but their 'explanations' were so strange that people just kept getting more annoyed at them, so who knows.

    Nowadays, DJ's with even a little bit of 'mature' content are all supposed to be marked 'adult' and they wouldn't even show them to people under 18, never mind selling it to them, though, FYI.

    Well, anyway, it's good that the bill went down - I mean, one could even smack 'The little mermaid' with this, theoretically. Hello, animated mermaid girl that looks like she might be under 18, in a seashell bra!

  • 0

    Clock222

    Oh, and by the way, manga exists for both boys and girls, and also for older men and older woman. In boy's manga, adventure with a little romance is popular (The beautiful plucky princess needs the hero's help!) while in girl's manga, romance with a little adventure is popular (Who is this mysterious handsome stranger who transfered to the heroine's school?) As people can probably guess, manga for teenage boys tend to feature lots of good-looking teenage female charactors, while manga for teenage girls tend to feature lots of handsome teenage boy charactors. When it comes to manga for older people, it all depends on the target audience, of course. Manga targeted at businessmen-and-woman tend to have 'how to get ahead in business' and 'office romances' as popular fields, while manga targeted to housewives tend to handle 'friends and family' matters. Historical drama mangas are also very popular, nowadays. There are also many very wonderful mangas about more serious matters - One in particular, a story about a blind woman and her family and seeing-eye dog, has one several prizes and has been turned into a TV series, as I recall.

  • 0

    HonestDictator

    Yeah there are so many types its ridiculous. Shonen/Shojo, seinen/josei and I think there are a couple of other types but I just can't remember what "catagory" they're called. Meh, no skin off my back.

  • 0

    NationalistRE

    Historical drama mangas are also very popular, nowadays

    Like effeminate Shinsengumi adaptations?

  • 0

    Clock222

    There are too many historical samural manga for me to list here, but what I was thinking of was manga such as the wildly popular Rurouni Kenshin and Jin (that's the one with the time-traveling doctor)

  • 0

    site2japan

    ART There is no obscenity. What is Sexual? There is no answerity. Everything is a vague thing.

    and It doesn't succeed at all as a business in Japan. All artists is very poor. So, such a images of minors in manga should never be "business".Because it is a too foolish act for business. Only, exciting. Of course, I do not like it so.

  • 0

    HonestDictator

    All they need to do is replace the choice "Art" with "Freedom of expression". I don't consider graphic novels/manga as art, but as a story with pictures. The author tries to set up a story... now if they're going to write a porn story well, we already know how trashy porn is in the first place. As I keep sayin' "long as no real people/minors or otherwise are being used then there ain't no problem no way no how hyuk"

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