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Should Holocaust denial be a crime?
Monday 16th February, 03:00 AM JST
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kinniku at 11:11 AM JST - 23rd February
sabiwabi,
I am claiming you are 'incorrect'(you were even incorrect here in responding to my post), and you were incorrect about your list of top Nazis you claimed were Jewish. They were not at all Jewish. You were incorrect in your claim that Max Warburg was staying in nice hotels in Germany throughout the war, when he was actually in the US. You were very misleading in your quote of Elie Wiesel earlier in this discussion when you claimed he was racist against Germans when the man was writing about the Nazis from a concentration camp. As to Elie Weisel in the book 'Night', he writes that he was forced on a death march (of which there were many as the Soviets advanced). Why would you be misleading? Why is it you cannot seem to rely on facts, but must distort reality to suit your argument?
What I find suspicious is that neither what you claimed to be 'air raid shelters' nor crematoria would have in any way been of benefit to the advancing Soviets. Thus, there is no reason to destroy them unless the Nazis had something to hide...Do you have evidence of Nazis similarly destroying civilian (outside the camps)air raid shelters or crematoria?
Now, how about answers the questions I have been posing to you for quite some time. It would seem that if you have so much interest in the subject and you are so willing to make claims about the subject, you should be willing to discuss your claims honestly and freely.
Let's look at your incorrect list of top Nazis you claimed were Jewish again, shall we?
None of these people were at all Jewish...neither were they Zionists at all. Why is it you were write such a completely incorrect statement?
Since we have now determined the top Nazis you claimed were Jewish, were not in fact Jewish. Could you give us the names of these people you claim were top Nazis and were Jewish/Zionist?
Also, it would be great if you could address the other questions in my post above.
sabiwabi at 12:16 PM JST - 23rd February
Quit whining and grow up already. There is no need to constantly make a long list of things I write that you simply state are incorrect. How do you I am incorrect if you don't even bother checking out my sources. I say you're incorrect, so there.
So, even assuming the holocaust story is all correct. Why would the "evil nazis" destroy the crematoria? What is wrong with having crematoria in a camp of that size? What would they be hiding?
Anyway, Wiesel was given a choice to wait for the Russians or go with the Germans. He was in the hospital, recovering from surgery, he had the option, and he chose to go with the Germans.
But they had time to march away with the inmates? Somewhat inconsistent, no?
Moderator: Please do not tell other readers to "grow up." If you can't post in an civil manner, then don't post at all.
kinniku at 12:50 PM JST - 23rd February
sabiwabi,
I am hardly 'whining'. I am asking you questions about your claims. Why is it you have so much trouble backing up what you claim? I thought you were interested in this discussion. Why wouldn't you want to specifically and clearly explain yourself?
Actually, there is a need. You have not address the questions posed to you about your claims. I am not simply stating you are incorrect. You are incorrect. I have backed up my claims with specific reasons. I then asked you questions for clarifactions. You have not as yet responded to these specific questions...Don't you have any answers to back up what you have been saying?
My response is simply that what you wrote was incorrect. The list of top Nazis you claimed were Jewish, were not Jewish at all. It would follow that your sources were also incorrect. I am sorry, I will not waste my time on a 147 minute video that based on what you have written is full of incorrect information.
In response, I again ask you, What I find suspicious is that neither what you claimed to be 'air raid shelters' nor crematoria would have in any way been of benefit to the advancing Soviets. Thus, there is no reason to destroy them unless the Nazis had something to hide...Do you have evidence of Nazis similarly destroying civilian (outside the camps)air raid shelters or crematoria?
See, the thing is, Elie Weisel in the book 'Night' writes that he was forced on a death march (of which there were many as the Soviets advanced). Why would you be misleading? Why is it you cannot seem to rely on facts, but must distort reality to suit your argument?
Not particularly, if forcing them to march away would help cover up something. Just as destroying homicidal gas chambers and crematoria would also have helped cover up something. You see, these would be of benefit to the fleeing Nazis. Supposed 'air raid shelters' and crematoria would not have been of any benefit to the Soviets as you suggest.
So, are you ready to answers the above questions? I hope so.
sabiwabi at 07:00 PM JST - 23rd February
What could blowing up crematoria possibly cover up?
kinniku at 07:50 PM JST - 23rd February
The burning of an unusual amount of dead people leading to unwanted questions about how they died.
Your turn...
What possible "strategic benefit" would supposed "air raid shelters" and, what everyone admits were crematoria, be to the Russians? Do you have evidence of Nazis similarly destroying civilian (outside the camps)air raid shelters or crematoria?
You also have a long list of questions above that I would like you to answer if you could...
sabiwabi at 10:56 AM JST - 24th February
I am not an expert in military strategy, but I suspect the shelters could potentially benefit the Russians in the same way they benefited the Germans, the reason for which they were built. The war was still on, wasn't it?
But the important question is what evidence do you have that they were gas chambers?
No. Do you have evidence of Nazis NOT destroying civilian (outside the camps)air raid shelters or crematoria?
Also, what is the evidence that it was the nazis who destroyed those facilities in the camps? Could they have been destroyed after the nazis left.
I find strange that you do not see the inconsistency in your reasoning. While you state that they couldn't afford the few minutes to blow up a few small buildings and that "saving their own hides would be the first priority", they decided to march the inmates with them. Imagine how much that slowed down their retreat. What do you think?
Anyway, Wiesel clearly states in his book that he was given a choice to wait for the Russians or go with the Germans. He was in the hospital, recovering from surgery (he was not gassed when he could not work), he had the option, and after discussing it with his father, he chose to go with the Germans. This is clearly written in his book. If you are so confident he says differently, I suspect he changed it in later editions. Maybe someone pointed out to him how it did not fit with the holocaust story.
As for Jim Condit's video, The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler, indeed it is a long video, but its not like you have to view the entire video and wait for the final punchline. Except for the first minute, its basically Condit showing various sources (e.g., books) and describing what they say about who the Nazis were. If you don't want to watch it, suit yourself.
How are you so sure that the top nazis have no Jewish ancestry? Specifics please!
kinniku at 01:17 PM JST - 24th February
sabiwabi,
First, what you really need to understand clearly is when you are attempt to 'revise' what is known as fact, you have to back up these revisions. You cannot claim revisions and then ask everyone else to show you why your revisions are wrong. For example, the modern world believes the earth revolves around the sun. If a 'revisionist' comes along and tells us we have been fed a 'lie' and that the fact is that the sun revolves around the earth. It is up to the revisionist to prove their case.
Now on to some of your points:
You are neglecting the fact that both homicidal gas chambers (which you are claiming were 'air raid shelters') and crematoria were destroyed by the Nazis. There seems to be no evidence of the Nazis destroying civilian air raid shelters or crematoria. So, your theory that they were destroying things that might have been of benefit to the Russians makes little sense, especially with regard the crematoria.
Sorry, it does not work that way. You cannot ask others to explain your case for your. This is particularly true when I don't believe your claims are correct. It is you claiming the Nazis destroyed the gas chambers and crematoria because they would have been of benefit to the Russians. If that were true, they would have destroyed civilian air raid shelters and crematoria. It is you that needs to prove this is true, not I...Remember, you made the claim.
No inconsistency at all. The Nazis wanted to force march as many witnesses as they could. They wanted to hide what they had been doing. When it came to saving their own necks, taking more time to round up witnesses makes perfect sense. Destroying supposed 'air raid shelters' and crematoria does not makes sense if the only reason you claim is that you think it would have been of benefit to the Russians at that point in the war. I don't think it would have. Do you have any specific proof that the Nazis thought air raid shelters and crematoria would have been of benefit to the Russians?
However, speaking of complete inconsistencies, above you put "evil nazis" in quotations, which I assume means you don't think they were so evil. )If you don't think this, why did you put "evil nazis" in quotation marks?) If you don't seem to to think they were evil, why have you been claiming they were Jewish/Zionists? You have suggested that it wasn't the Nazis that wanted to take over the world, that it was the Zionists. In addition, during this same time period, you have also suggested that you would not be surprised to find out that Hitler was a 'nice guy'. Now, you claimed (completely incorrectly, of course) that top Nazis, including Hitler were Jewish. In fact, you provided a complete list of people who were not Jewish at all. Which is it? Were the Nazis bad or good in your eyes?
Let's be clear. He was put on a forced death march in which many inmates died or were killed. What edition of the book 'Night' are you referring to? What page is the quote you are claiming is there on? Your 'suspicions' aside, I prefer to deal in specific facts and not just your claims.
Speaking of which, you still haven't given me a link to Document L-159, No. 47 of the 79th Congress. You claim to have been quoting from it. So, could I please have the link?
No, it does not work that way. You made the claims that top Nazis were Jewish. They were not. You cannot just type any names you want and expect people to take you seriously. You have to be able to back up what you write. Can you? It seems you cannot. You should not expect me to back up your claims for you. One would think after making such claims for more than three years you would have something clear and specific to back it up with. It seems not. Hardly surprising though since you were incorrect in your claim that Max Warburg was staying in nice hotels in Germany throughout the war, when he was actually in the US.
So, it seems you have made a lot of claims but you can't actually back any of them up with specifics.
sabiwabi at 04:57 PM JST - 24th February
These are not my revisions. The revisionists have backed up their claims, but I will not copy everything on this forum just for your happiness. If you choose to ignore them suit yourself. What you call "facts" is essentially based on eye-witness testimony (not much else), much of which can be quickly understood to be impossible if you look at serious revisionist information (www.codoh.com www.vho.org).
I believed in the holocaust story until a few years ago, when I looked at these sites, and others (including the exterminist ones). I used to think Zundel was a nut when he was in the news decades ago, but I don't think that anymore.
Sorry, indeed, but you are the one who brought up that they did not destroy the civilian ones. In fact, this was in Poland, right? Did the nazis build civilian air raid shelters for Polish civilians? Don't expect me to spend my time answering your questions, I don't work for you. If air raid shelters are not of any use during a war, why have them? They were built for a specific purpose and they could be used by the Russians for the same purpose; just give it some thought and you'll eventually get it.
Anyway, I see that you are still trying to distract from the real question, what evidence is there that these were gas chambers?
I did not just type names. I told you exactly where to go for the evidence. I certainly will not transcribe the entire video (Jim Condit's The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler) on this forum just to make you happy.
Seems those who believe the holocaust story are those who simply refuse to look at revisionist information.
kinniku at 07:09 PM JST - 24th February
sabiwabi,
Sorry, I see your name on the post with these claims. They are your claims and you are the one making them. It is merely that you cannot seem to back them up.
They have not backed up one thing and, more to the point, neither have you. In fact, whenever you have graced this and other discussions with something you suggest backs up your claims, it is just another incorrect supposition on your part.
You might find it interesting to note that David Cole stated specifically on the Donahue Show (you can see it on youtube) that he thought Zundel was a "neo-Nazi". I am inclined to agree with this sentiment.
I asked you a question. It was a simple question. I merely asked you if it was common practice for the Nazis to blow up and destroy civilian air raid shelters and crematoria so that the would not be of benefit to the Russians. You claimed it made sense for the Nazis to destroy homicidal gas chambers, which you claimed were "air raid shelters" and the crematoria because they would be of benefit to the Russians. I responded that it only made sense if the Nazis were trying to hide something as the, what you refer to as, "air raid shelters" and crematoria would have been of no possible benefit to the Russians. So, do you know if it was common practice for the Nazis to blow up and destroy civilian air raid shelters and crematoria so that the would not be of benefit to the Russians? It seems you do not. This weakens your already considerably weak case even further.
Again, it seems you cannot back up your claims. If you could, you were be able to answer simple questions about your claims that you have been making for over three years, simply, clearly and specifically.
I never suggested air raid shelters were not of any use during a war. I was explaining that at that point in the war, they would have been of little or no use. Had the Nazis thought they were of such importance, they would have destroyed all of the civilain air raid shelters and crematoria (I notice you keep ignoring that both of these were destroyed in the camps). Again, do you have some sort of specific proof that this is the case. Do you have some specific proof that destroying air raid shelters and crematoria was a part of a specific plan so that they would not be of benefit to the Russians? If you do not, your theories become even weaker.
They were built for a specific purpose and they could be used by the Russians for the same purpose; just give it some thought and you'll eventually get it.
Well, again, I have given it some thought and what I "get" is that you seem to not be able to say that the Nazis also destroyed civilian air raid shelters and crematoria. So, your theories seem quite weak.
As I stated, you are the one attempting to "revise" historical facts to suit your theories. It is up to you to back up what you say. It seems that you cannot.
Unless you can back up with specific and clear evidence to back up the names you typed, all you have done is typed a bunch of incorrect information. The fact that you still cannot manage to simply answer the question posed to you leaves the exact impression that you just typed names with no basis in reality. In fact, none of the people are Jewish at all.
No, you asked me to watch a 147 minute video by a nut who thinks the Catholic church has been invaded by what he calls "Crypto_Jews". I simply ask you to back up your incorrect list of top Nazis you incorrectly claimed were Jewish. There should be no need for someone who, for more than three years, has been making the claim that top Nazis were Jewish to rely on a video. One would think you would actually know what is on the video and be able to simply explain and back up your list. Since you cannot, one can only believe your list is incorrect.
It is not a matter of believing what you refer to as the "Holocaust story"> It is simply a matter of not believing your incorrect claims. I find it very telling that after all these years of making incorrect claims, when the moderators have graciously given you an opportunities to answer specific questions (that others in this discussion also expressed interest in seeing you attempt to finally answer) that you demur and decline to be specific. It seems you really have not thought things through nearly as much as you would have others believe. In fact, as time goes on, it really does seem like you have not even read up on the subjects about which you make your incorrect claims
Speaking of complete inconsistencies, above you put "evil nazis" in quotations, which I assume means you don't think they were so evil. )If you don't think this, why did you put "evil nazis" in quotation marks?) If you don't seem to to think they were evil, why have you been claiming they were Jewish/Zionists? You have suggested that it wasn't the Nazis that wanted to take over the world, that it was the Zionists. In addition, during this same time period, you have also suggested that you would not be surprised to find out that Hitler was a 'nice guy'. Now, you claimed (completely incorrectly, of course) that top Nazis, including Hitler were Jewish. In fact, you provided a complete list of people who were not Jewish at all. Which is it? Were the Nazis bad or good in your eyes?
kinniku at 07:18 PM JST - 24th February
Sorry, the one of the quotes above should have looked like this:
Well, again, I have given it some thought and what I "get" is that you seem to not be able to say that the Nazis also destroyed civilian air raid shelters and crematoria. So, your theories seem quite weak.
sabiwabi at 09:47 AM JST - 25th February
I guess the take home message is that despite all the posts in this and other holocaust-related threads, nobody has yet provided any evidence proving the mass murder of Jews by gassing. How can anyone seriously consider making doubting the holocaust story illegal. (I know doesn't doesn't)
smartacus at 10:08 AM JST - 25th February
sabiwabi
You were soundly defeated on the first day of this thread by myself and several other readers. You just don't know when you are licked. Sensible readers have long given up on you. The world says 2 plus 2 equals 4, you say it equals 5. Weird.
And please, no retort rehashing your lame arguments.
kinniku at 10:31 AM JST - 25th February
smartacus,
Exactly. The actual take home message is that it would continue to seem as though sabiwabi cannot back up even one of his claims on these and the many other threads on which he has posted his incorrect claims.
sabiwabi at 02:27 PM JST - 26th February
kinnitacus,
Have you provided any proof? A few have alluded to mountains of evidence, yet none was provided.
kinniku at 03:48 PM JST - 26th February
sabiwabi,
Who are you talking to? There aren't any posters by the name of 'kinnitacus'. Much evidence has been provided actually. It seems that in addition to difficulties in reading poster's names and typing them correctly, you have trouble reading posts and digesting their content. This is simply demonstrated by your seemingly lack of ability to specifically, simply and clearly answer questions about your incorrect claims.