JAPAN NEWS AND DISCUSSION
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Which do you think is best: iPhone or Android?
( 30 )
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Google versus Facebook for dominance of the web. Who has the upper hand?
( 19 )
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Should prefectures outside the Tohoku area accept tsunami rubble for incineration or disposal?
( 41 )
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Do you think Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) should be nationalized?
( 13 )
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Do you think credit ratings on countries from companies such as Standard & Poors, Moody’s and Fitch carry too much weight?
( 13 )
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- English Instructor (Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe)
- Berlitz Japan, Inc. (ベルリッツ・ジャパン株式会社), Kansai
- Salary: ¥125,000 ~ ¥250,000 / Month
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- FT English Teachers for Kids - Osaka
- Kohgakusha Co., Ltd. （株式会社興学社）, Osaka
- Salary: ¥255,000 ~ ¥275,000 / Month Travel Expenses, Encouragement of Japanese learning*
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- Translator
- ZAIHON, Inc. (日本財務翻訳株式会社), Tokyo
- Salary: ¥6.0M / Year Negotiable
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59 Comments
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WMD
Depends on the foreigner. For the very low skilled/very low wage group such as factory workers, english teachers and cleaners, language ability should determine the visa length. For professionals holding well paid positions, maybe not necessary. However japanese is a very easy language to learn, so there should be no problem for anyone to become proficient very quickly.
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illsayit
Will jobs that require English, be as strict, in English speaking countries?
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Sarge
WMD - Good one.
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SuperLib
We can probably assume from the numbers that 43% of the people surveyed are comfortable with their level of Japan, 57% aren't...heh. I voted "no." ;)
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smithinjapan
I said 'no', only because the question was so vague. It should NOT determine the maximum amount of stay for people coming here on jobs/in companies where Japanese is not necessarily 'required' and therefore not necessary to have a certain level of competency. However, in light of the recent thread where the government went 180 degrees and said a certain level might allow EXTENDED visas.... well, I'm 100% for that. BUT unfortunately this is not clear in the question, and saying yes to the question of the thread means that from the get go how long you can be here is determined by your fluency in the native tongue, which means strict limits and refusals would be permissible.
And Superlib is 100% incorrect: I am completely confident with my fluent ability to use Japanese, but the survey's question allows for no differentiation between jobs, purpose, or how long a visa may be extended if fluency is a factor.
As to the comment on how such a test of English might be received if pushed on Japan (and others) in English speaking countries, we already have the government's response on that one based on the thread where England was thinking of instituting a similar test to allow companies in and what not -- and the Japanese government stained their pants in fear and practically begged the English to reconsider.
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Coligny
Troll poll of a slow news sunday... Keep it classy JT...
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illsayit
Slow? there is heaps happening. This is just easy to comment on in a classy style, when you need a break from the heavier stuff.
I also think SuperLib is wrong.
Thanks, smithinjapan, that is what I thought. Im guessing there would be alot of other countries that would have bigger stains on their pants than Japan! I agree though the question is vague, because there is a need for a respect of the Japanese language by foreigners.
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rjd_jr
Whoever voted no is being hypocritical. I don't see how any person can want to stay for a considerable length of time in a foreign country and not have even the most basic common courtesy to attempt to learn the language and learn to speak and write it. That is downright insulting.
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aoto
of course they should
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USNinJapan2
WMD
Japanese is not an easy language to learn. I was lucky enough to have learned it naturally from birth, but still believe it is a difficult language. The US government ranks Japanese in the highest Level 4 category of difficulty, along with Russian, Chinese, Arabic, etc.. All jokes about the language ability of Americans aside, Japanese is not considered an easy language to become proficient in, let alone fluent.
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amerijap
USNinJapan2
I second your emotion. It's quite challenging for most foreigners, and even for some people who were born and raised in Japan. Even I myself sometimes get frustrated with organizing my ideas with a very complicated language, despite the fact it is my first language. I usually feel much more comfortable thinking and writing in English now.
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sarcasm123
Japanese is not an easy language, but for someone living in Japan it should not take too much time to master it. Unfortunately, some foreigners have this tendency to live in an English coccoon they like to leave as little as possible.
Ask this same question on a non English website and you'll get a completely different result.
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thepossum
"Japanese is not an easy language, but for someone living in Japan it should not take too much time to master it."
Interesting comment. Doesn't actually mesh with the article in todays "Features" section titled "Todays kids can't handle movie subtitles". Just a tidbit...
"More recently, however, film distributors have become increasingly aware that younger audiences are unable to comprehend subtitles on current films. To simplify things, subtitle producers have been ordered to reduce the number of words flashed on the screen to the bare minimum, and use of Chinese characters has been cut."
Go figure !
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sarcasm123
Well, thepossum, that was a rather off topic and pointless comment. I guess you are from a country that doesn't use subtitles too often.
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smithinjapan
"Whoever voted no is being hypocritical. I don't see how any person can want to stay for a considerable length of time in a foreign country and not have even the most basic common courtesy to attempt to learn the language and learn to speak and write it. That is downright insulting."
I agree with you that people SHOULD make an attempt to learn the native language of a country; and anyone who doesn't is disrespecting the language, the culture, and the country itself. HOWEVER, I disagree that anyone who said 'no' is being a hypocrite; again, the question is too vague, and there is no 100% yes vote, regardless of a person's fluency, if he or she merely wants to come in to work in a job that doesn't require Japanese to be spoken.
As for Japanese being 'easy', it is and it isn't. Phonetically it is the easiest language in the world; a mere 5 vowel sounds and every single syllable in the language containing one except the consonant sound 'n'. It is also monotone, where mastering many other languages requires a keen perception and use of inflection if one wants to get a word correct. As well, there are no genders when it comes to articles before nouns (or the nouns themselves). On the other hand, where it is difficult is with grammar, and in particular the 'honorific'. It's still easier than Korean in this respect, but can be very hard to grasp, in particular with it being largely misused and ignored in the modern day. Finally, we have kanji; for anyone who doesn't like it (and I think there are only two camps here... those who like, and those who hate) it can be a bane. For those who DO like it, it can indeed be easy and even enjoyable to learn and write.
In other words, saying it's 'easy' is a rather vague and subjective comment.
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umbrella
Is japanese easy or not?? Well all I can say is that I struggled to learn Mandarin to a reasonably decent level. Then I came to japanese and I felt it to be quite a step down in the "difficulty" stakes. So I would agree that"easiness" is subjective.
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Beelzebub
Although Tokyoites go to great efforts to ignore one another, I revel in scaring the bejesus out of them at every possible opportunity, addressing them heartily in their own language whenever I see them engaging in thoughtless, self-absorbed behavior. (Which is often.) \
They must realize they have truly created a monster. So if this survey were to be administered to the locals, I'm confident they would vote overwhelmingly for foreigners NOT to study their language.
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dano2002
some of us work 10 hours a day in an english speaking office. plus, the stress level is enormous. so, please explain how we have the time to be fluent in Japanese? for some of you working 6 hours a day teaching i really don't think you can compare our lifestyles. as far as staying in Japan based on language ability, maybe they should base it on tax amount paid instead.
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shugotokumaru
Anyone familiar with comments by Foreign Minister Komura and others knows that the idea is only proposed to increase stays for those who have ability, but not affect those who don't.
Beelzebub, I doubt your Japanese scares them as much as your baffling scolding. You are assuming that your language skill causes the reaction, but I would assert that anyone in any country who parades about chastising people for their "thoughtless, self-absorbed behavior" is rightfully looked upon as a vigilant, insecure psycho, regardless of their nationality or language skill.
I see no problem with the government incentivizing the immigration of the people it deems most useful to its economy and society, especially if there are no barriers to people who don't have language skills.
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papasmurfinjapan
In principle, I agree that if you are planning on living here for a long time, it is only fair that you try and attain a certain level of proficiency in Japanese. I'm sure they wouldn't be asking for JPLT Level 1 proficiency, just level 3 or 4 to show that you are trying.
However, I think it we need to consider who this would exclude if it were passed as law. Sure, I suppose it would get rid of the riff-raff, but what about those with learning disabilities who really can't learn Japanese beyond a simple level? What about old folks like Jenkins-san? What about refugees? Will they be shipped back to Afghanistan if they can't pass a Japanese exam? What about poor foreigners who live in the countryside who can't afford to go to Fukuoka or Osaka or somewhere to do a JPLT test to prove their ability?
Of course the government may have exceptions for all of the above, but it is still worth consideration. We don't want to exclude anyone that does have a right to be here, regardless of their language proficiency.
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sarcasm123
shugotokumaru "I would assert that anyone in any country who parades about chastising people for their "thoughtless, self-absorbed behavior" is rightfully looked upon as a vigilant, insecure psycho, regardless of their nationality or language skill."
Very well said. Read this forum very well, my friend, and you will notice quickly where this distorted on Japanese society many here suffer from come from: 90% of their stories are situated inside trains or on stations. The drunk salariman vomiting on the platform, the angry stares, etc etc. Connect the dots: for many here the only interaction with Japan happens with peole around them in the rush hour trains. Can we expect from these kind of people to have a correct view on Japanese society? Of course we can't.
As for Japanese language ability, many seem to think of it as a punishment when Japan asks us to learn their language. It is however exactly the oposite. What will those long term Japanese illiterate residents do when one day they meet with an accident here? Explain what happens and where it hurts over the telephone using body language?? You have to be able to take care of yourself. Some here can't do that, and are even proud of it. It is irresponsible behaviour. They are endangering themselves and others. On a less serious level you have the train stories: all interaction is limited to the rush hour, as these people are not capable of interacting with normal Japanese (who can't speak English). Result: they think they are being ignored, they feel frustrated and isolated.
Being stimulated to learn Japanese is a gift. It would take the JT public NOT to see that.
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nigelboy
Kanji playes an important role of distinguishing tons of 同音異義語 (homophones) so I wouldn't necessarily classify as like or not liking it unless you want to limit youself to kindergarten/early elementary school Japanese level.
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umbrella
sarcasm123 how dare you come on here and talk absolute sense!
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smithinjapan
"Kanji playes an important role of distinguishing tons of 同音異義語 (homophones) so I wouldn't necessarily classify as like or not liking it unless you want to limit youself to kindergarten/early elementary school Japanese level."
My point is, people who hate kanji (and even in Japanese they are growing) generally lack the ability to write it and pick it up as quickly as those who DO like it. I loved art class in highschool, and hence for me writing the kanji is often like drawing a picture. I find it easy to remember even the hardest NGU kanji that most Japanese have no idea how to read it, or what it means. 躑躅、蟋蟀、蜚蠊、鸚鵡 are among some of my favourites.
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sarcasm123
Wow... is that the same smithinjapan who claimed that Kanji are obsolete, and therefore he choses not to study them? Or am I confusing you with someone else?
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1keiron
I still dont understand the people that want to live and work in Japan but expect everything to be handed out to them in English. Its just dumb! The same people that sit there bashing the Japanese culture and spit dummies out because they understand naff all about Japan or any other part of Asia. I really enjoy studying Japanese at Uni and i dont find it difficult. If anything I find it very challenging but its just a case of taking it all head on. Kanji is just a case of remembering thats all! (ask a Japanese child they might even point one in the right direction) Kanji I find fun. Why am i studying a BA in Japanese? So i can learn a little about the place of course before I depart from the ignorant Western world to live and work in Japan.
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rjdsr
Connect the dots: for many here the only interaction with Japan happens with peole around them in the rush hour trains. Can we expect from these kind of people to have a correct view on Japanese society? Of course we can't.
You don't actually expect people to talk about time with their families, do you? I make up train stories because they're funny - just like lots of posters here. This is entertainment, not a serious forum.
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OhioDonna
No, not really. If I were staying in Japan, I would try my best to learn the language. There are those who can easily learn other languages. It is the way their brains work. Others have a more difficult time. I would love to speak another language however I struggled to learn Spanish. I can read it better than I can speak it because the alphabet is the same.
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USNinJapan2
From an English speaking perspective:
http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/november/learningExpectations.html
Note that Japanese is specifically identified as difficult to learn...
0
cleo
USNinJapan -
That list refers to languages taught in a formal class setting. That's not the same as learning 'on the street'. I spent four years in London on a formal Japanese course and agreed with everyone around me that it was 'difficult' - then came to Japan and realised after 3-6 months that it wasn't really.
If you spend your class time analysing stuff in terms of grammar, then yes Japanese is very different from English, and if being different means being difficult then it's difficult. If on the other hand you jump head-first into the linguistic water, as it were, you're too busy trying to swim to worry about what's happening to the grammar. Once you get past the 'OMG I'm drowning here' phase, you notice that you're actually getting by quite nicely and happily using grammatical structures you couldn't for the life of you analyse in terms of English grammar. Maybe having the formal grounding helps, but surely that's the same with all languages.
The Japanese have the same problem; one of the biggest hurdles to their becoming proficient in English is the fact that their teachers keep telling them how difficult it is. Teachers can sometimes be a huge hurdle to learning.
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nigelboy
A simple katakana would do just fine for those characters for those aren't 同音異義語. And if written in katakana, I'm quite sure they know what it means.
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ambrosia
Japanese is considered a "difficult" language for three reasons: 1) It is spoken only in Japan so there is little chance to learn it unless you live in Japan. 2) Kanjii. 3) It is still largely considered an exotic language by many people, including linguists. That of course is a debatable point.
The point is that the level of difficulty depends on many factors, some of those being the native language of the person learning Japanese and that language's grammatical similarity to Japanese, the method used in learning the language, and the necessity to learn the language, to name a few.
By the same token English could be considered a very difficult language by merit of the number of verb tenses, irregular verbs and exceptions to nearly every grammatical rule. Additionally that English is spoken in so many places increases the vocabulary and regional differences. Even native speakers have trouble understanding English as it is spoken in various countries. English spelling is a nightmare evidenced by the comparitively high number of English speakers with dislexia, not as common in other languages.
In comparing Japanese to English, there are fewer verb tenses than in English; there is no future or perfect tense it's not necesary for verbs to agree with the subject of the sentence as in many European languages. For example in English we say, I go, he goes etc. But in Japanese you only need the verb form 行く iku which can be used for anyone. Also, Japanese is an agglutinative language which means you simply add endings onto root words to change the meaning. There are also fewer irregular verbs and exceptions in Japanese than in English. For an English speaker learning Japanese there will also be many familiar words since over Japanese as it is spoken today contains nearly 20,000 loan words. Japanese also has a high number of "situational phrases" which require memorization and less case-by-case reading of a situation as in English. Don't even get me started on the supposedly subtelty of Japanese over English or the very real complexity of English punctuation!
The whole point about the supposed "difficulty of Japanese" is usually one made by people who've never tried to learn it, by those who want to think that their having learned it is a feat worthy of awe or by those who actually know nothing about the difficulty of their own language, which is most people. As has been said before - It's not difficult. It's different!
Should people living in Japan learn the language - probably. Should they have to learn it - why? Unless they're asking for special favors I can't see how it's anyones business but that person's. If they don't mind communication difficulties why should I or you care? They don't represent me. I represent me. If you're that threatened by the percieved image of "ignorant, non-Japanese speaking foreigners in Japan" then I'd suggest you either have too much time on your hands or you're in need of some serious counseling.
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smithinjapan
Sarcasm123: "Wow... is that the same smithinjapan who claimed that Kanji are obsolete, and therefore he choses not to study them? Or am I confusing you with someone else?"
I remember the post you are referring to, but it was DEFINITELY not me... it was by someone who adamantly said there's no point teaching English to Japanese kids because it will be non-existent in the future, etc. etc...... can't recall exactly who it was right now, but whomever it was I took them to task on the thread, pointing out the folly of his/her statements.
Anyway, I state again, while I do believe ANYONE who wishes to live here there should be an attempt (if not a desire, but we can't force those!) to learn the local language. For people who come here only on work (not necessarily by choice), don't need it, and don't plan to live here, I don't think they should be forced to take fluency tests to determine they can only stay so long. Give the test to the people already here who wish to live and work further, and benefit their lives through learning the language and culture more in-depth. The problem with this question, again, is that it's so vague... how would it be implemented? Before you came? When you've been here for a while and want to extend/renew?
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slayer_99us
I guess, if the same rule will be applied to Japanese living in English speaking countries, then most will not have a living visa at all. I vote ( NO)
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DeepAir65
I voted yes - my Japanese sucks! I really wish I could go off into the boonies for 6 months and sort it out but my boss won't let me
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Sarge
Heck no! If English is good enough for me, by golly it's good enough for the rest of the world! Tee hee!
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usaexpat
Language ability means a lot less than employability. I'm with Slayer_99us most of the Japanese I worked with and associated with in the US had very poor english skills. They had job skills however that their employer's valued.
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Damax6
ohhhhh geeezzzz usssssss, you gotta learn the DAMN language if you want residency in ANY COUNTRY!!!!!. it`s the same in the states, ENGLISH IS THE MAIN LANGUAGE , JAPAN IS JAPANESE ..DUhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! why in the hell should we ask the japanese to understand US...THIS IS THEIR COUNTRY!!!!! common sense...learn the friggin language and live here peacefully and get the respect of the japanese people by your ability to survive here, damn i cannot believe that people lack basic common sense on this one
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Sarge
"you gotta learn the DAMN langauge if you want residency in ANY COUNTRY!!!! it's the same in the states, ENGLISH IS THE MAIN LANGUAGE"
Ha ha ha! That must be why I see and hear Spanish everywhere I go in the States these days.
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Damax6
Sarge i feel u on the spanish bit...now we cannot equate the states with japan.. yes some illegals overstay here by coming on real or bogus tourist visa, back home the borders are more pourous than spongebob, yes the problem is BIG back home, and i am NOT a backer on that.. They need to learn and KNOW english before they get SQUAT!!
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ambrosia
damax6: People do live here peacefully and do more than survive without learning the language. I know plenty who've done so and don't think there is some definite correlation between not learning the language and not surviving. Plenty of people go about their daily lives with simple, basic, survival language skills, not asking the Japanese they encounter to learn their language, whatever that may be. If the goal is simply to earn the respect of Japanese people, it will likely take a lot more than language ability. If you're asking for special favors then it's a whole other story. It's less a matter of common sense than what your goals are and some people have goals that are not hindered by a lack of Japanese.
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Taka313
Although I certainly agree with the idea that any person living in a foreign country should make a point to learn the host country's language and culture for many of the reasons that Sarcasm123 mentioned above, I still don't think it should be a government mandate. Of everyone I have ever met here in Japan, the person who I feel has contributed the most to the betterment of Japan was a Catholic priest, who, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't speak a word of the language.
I think a better "factor" to be taken into consideration is how does Japan benefit from your presence? If you are a benefit to Japan, then, by all means, stay as long as you like. If you are a burden to the system, then please burden your own country.
Think of it this way, who would you rather have in the country, a guy who can't speak the language but spends one day a week organizing volunteers, buying food and distributing it to the homeless or a guy who is fluent in the language, but offers nothing to the betterment of Japan?
My two cents.
Taka
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Cos
*But in Japanese you only need the verb form 行く iku which can be used for anyone.
Yes Ambrosia, that way, it's easy for any idiot. With a lot of time, any idiot can attain JLPT4 level of text-book Japanese and can say "iku". And that can be useful for the tourist taking a taxi "Roppongi Hills iku, please.".
*a guy who can't speak the language.... buying food
Taka, it's great to have a good heart. But that's dangerous if he cannot read the label. I've received the cooking sanitary regulation booklet. It's all in Japanese, not one word in my Native language. Oh, to read such a document, it's extremely easy. If you are a Japanese Native speaker, you need 5 years of intensive study in average. If you start Japanese from scratches, you need more than 5 years.
I'd like to know how long that took to the aces of that board to easily reach adult and professional fluency in Japanese. Let's say passing the JLPT 1 milestone ? In time to renew visa ? Less than one year, while working here full time ? I really admire you. I'm still struggling, many years after my arrival.
That said, the Japanese governement is just bringing another useless hurdle for visa screening. If they want to increase foreign resident's fluency (and that wouldn't hurt), testing is useless. Testing never had any effect on fluency. Teaching is needed, they should start by :
-educating efficiently the children of the migrants. Instead of letting the Bresilian kids running away from unfit teachers and ijime, learning nihongo at home from the TV.., What about getting Japanese second language classes for children ? public bilingual school ?
-helping the foreign adults to study the Japanese they actually need. I guess that differs from where you live, but in a small bumpack city like Osaka, that's really hard to find trained teachers (not oshaberi bachans looking for free eikaiwa) that will teach what people need (instead of saying : "you must learn Minna no Nihongo, Nihongo no Kiso and then go back home because bachan sensei is tired of your difficult questions"). A friend wanted a class of Japanese for his staff of 20 Indian ingenieurs. The teacher had to speak enough English and know business and technical Japanese (they don't care about how to buy their groceries, they have to talk to their customers...). We've seen dozens of wannabe sensei. Not one able to do it. Well I've had a great teacher that could teach post Nihongo-no-Kiso, and she helped me with Japanese needed for my specialty, writing skills etc. Like all the good ones couldn't hope a university position, she gave up teaching, started another career. She couldn't find a full-time position, the bachans come first, many don't even ask money, it's their hobby. Ward office, prefecture office, etc, find that great, because it's nearly free (they need to spend money on inept administration). They don't understand that for the foreigners a good paying course would be much better than a free loss of time. The guys in charge never learnt another language, never traveled abroad. When we (foreigner and zainichi association) told them, they said : "But you guys have learnt more than enough Japanese with free classes. These migrants don't need to speak as much as you. They only have to get JLPT 1, not read the kanji, look we put the furigana on the documents. ". Their documents are written in the most complicated keigo and altmodish Japanese, incomprehensible with or without the ruby. Not sure they realise it, they put themselves on a bank and try to let foreigners on the other one (but not all foreigners, not us the token ones that jumped...), they even widen the gap.
Now,most schools and classes of Japanese are out of reach of foreigners (far from areas where they live, their schedules are neither convenient or full-time workers nor for people with small kids). I don't think the foreigners themselves are able to organize anthing better. So administration, companies and schools could make an effort to arrange the curriculum and teaching methods, the scheduling (including the company accepting to guarantee one or two sangyo-free evening, or let a free morning, whatever), baby-sitting, internet teaching. And maybe if tax money (paid also by migrants) could be attributed to cover the teaching fees.
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KaptainKichigai
everything you need to learn Japanese is on the NHK children's shows! Japanese Elmo taught me alot.
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antizombie
It should depend on the job requirements.
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Damax6
ambrosia, what you suggest is condesending.So you are saying that its OK not knowing the language in the foreign country you decide to live in because besides asking for special favors... you will do just fine.... well , well, well... so why are we all pised off of the mexicans speaking spanish back home... then it should also be OK for them... how many of us americans who visit tijuana, cancun, cozumel and other mexican city, tried to speak a lick of spanish.. most of dont even think twice that we are in another country... it would be nice if we gringos TRIED....same as in europe...in sweden it is also required for foreign residents who stay in sweden , to be able to speak , read ,write and understand THEIR language...SO learn japanese, practise on your neighbors or japanese friend. PERIOD.!!!
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tkoind2
No it should not. And the reason is in Japan's best interests.
Japan needs labor. Skilled and unskilled to maintain her tax base and working population.
Should people moving here learn to speak? Yes. Should the state offer more language and cultural training courses to new arrivals? Yes.
But limiting visas based on language is counter productive. Many jobs in Japan with foreign companies do not require Japanese ability for even many modest jobs. Restrictions here would do harm not good to both the business community and Japan's future.
Japan also needs basic labor workers and must find ways to attract more.
If the government wants to make things better they should.
Make Japan more foreign friendly, like the Singapore or Hong Kong, to encourage workers to move here.
Better civil liberties protections and rights for foreigners must be put in place to make living here long term more desirable.
Permanent immigration must be more achieveable to encourage people to raise families here and contribute more to society.
Eductational and language programs must be improved to allow immigrants to learn. This could be done as a subsidy to companies to compel them to provide language courses as a part of employment for non-Japanese.
Eliminate more of the xenophobic practices that allow discrimination against foreigners in employment, housing, treatment by authorities and harassment by the police.
Then, and only then, will Japan start down the path to becoming truly international and begin to address its tax, social welfare and work population problems.
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ambrosia
damax6: I'm not quite sure why you consider that condescending but perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of that word. Either way, I've not said I'm American nor have I said I'm "pissed off" at all the Mexicans speaking Spanish back home so I'm not sure what that has to do with this. Since you brought it up though, I really don't care what language Mexicans, Rwandans, Thai or any other group speak -again- as long as they are not asking for special favors. If a job requires English or a class is conducted in English or documents are available only in English then it would behoove any non-English speakers to learn the language if they want to get that job, take that class or understand those documents. If they can live their lives just fine without it, it's of no concern to me. Their lives will be made harder by that lack of ability, not mine. It as with most things in life. The people with the means and wherewithall will get the education and fulfill the requirements necessary to rise up in life and there will always be the ones who won't or can't and will be stuck in the same positions forever. It is really no different than learning Japanese. Do it if you want but if you don't that's your business. I simply do not care if the guy down the road speaks it or not. And please stop with the "we" business. You speak for yourself and I'll speak for myself. You don't know me and have absolutely no idea what my language abilities are or the attemps I make to speak the language of the place in which I'm living or visiting. The unsupported suppositions made on this board are quite amazing.
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KyouNoNippon
A resounding maybe.
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Damax6
AMB...i have a right ,so as to others on this board to agree or disagree with any comments made here in public. I, in your opinion seem to "misunderstood" or misuused, the word "condescending". Sorry, i feel the word was fitting for you comment,whether you agree or NOT. All comment here or elsewhere are debated. And, i feel that you comment WERE condescending and hypocritical. THIS IS MY OPINION. You, don`t know me either, lets not get personal.. this is NOT what i am here for. I trully believe that if some wants to live and work in foreign country , they MUST show that they can adapt and survive, REGARDLESS of the fact that their work only requires them to use their native tongue. "special favor" is your "unsupported" EXCUSE to the contrary. Visiting and residing are two separate issues. I am focused on RESIDING,LONG-TERM. and you are welcome to convince me with some "supported" reasoning to the contrary,if you choose to do so. i am open to debate this with you.....finally , if you feel that debating this topic is a waste of your time,then why are you here commenting in the first place?.
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NeoJamal
I assume all of you foreigners in Japan have taken employment in this country with a skill that no locals can develop to your standard (such as teaching a foreign language) or in shortage of such as nurses.
Really, is the Japanese government in a position to make such a demand? Learning Japanese is an onerous task for many foreigners and it is a disproportionate extra burden over the basic services provided for the actual pay received in this country. If we are to determine who has the higher bargaining power, it is the foreigner. These foreign workers can choose to go to other countries if they choose. It would be too onerous for the government itself to seek and recruit personnel overseas who conform to their "ideal standards of gaijin". I think Japanese have a good bargain with the gaijin they have now, so they shouldn't really discriminate on the grounds of language. Instead they ought to encourage Japanese education to further the foreigners' own well-being to better participate in all elements of Japanese social, economic, political and cultural life.
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KaptainKichigai
tkoind2 and neojamal, I am thoroughly impressed with the lucidity of your opinions. They made my night and have reduced my isolation and depression....thank you both.
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Sarge
If English is good enough for me, by golly it's good enough for the rest of the world! Tee hee!
Seriously, I agree with Taka313 here. I know people who don't speak Japanese very well who have contributed to society here, and, unfortunately, I know people who speak Japanese fluently who should be in jail.
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KaptainKichigai
another good point sarge
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ambrosia
damax6: Feel free to disagree, by all means. I never suggested you shouldn't and neither have I said anything personal about you so I don't know why you're feeling so put out. You say my opinion is condescending and again, I disagree and you've yet to explain why you think it's condescending so if that's the way you "debate" things, no thanks but thanks for the offer. I've already stated my reasons and am unlikely to change them based on what you've presented as reasons so far. For further explanation of how I feel about this issue, check out sarge and taka313's opinions. I agree with both of them.
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ambrosia
damax6: if you feel that debating this topic is a waste of your time,then why are you here commenting in the first place?.
Eh? Another thing I never said. Really, if you're get to get so worked up about another person's opinion, at least get their opinion straight first.
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Damax6
..hahahahaha...AMB... i am not riled up at all. did you read my posting in it
s entirety?...this "personal" talk came from you.(Ambrosia)....And please stop with the "we" business. You speak for yourself and I'll speak for myself. You don't know me and have absolutely no idea what my language abilities are or the attemps I make to speak the language of the place in which I'm living or visiting. and my response.....THIS IS MY OPINION. You, dont know me either, lets not get personal.. this is NOT what i am here for. I trully believe that if some wants to live and work in foreign country , they MUST show that they can adapt and survive, REGARDLESS of the fact that their work only requires them to use their native tongue. "special favor" is your "unsupported" EXCUSE to the contrary. Visiting and residing are two separate issues. I am focused on RESIDING,LONG-TERM.Finally to get the cat of the bag.... I review MANY applicants that want to reside here long-term daily. I have didn't need any "special favors" And as a NATURALIZED Japanese, self-educated in Japanese reading , writing and speaking, took the national japanese civil servant test to become an Immigration officer, PASSING IT, and working hard at what i am doing now, gives me no ease to the comments you, sarge(funny), or Taka has to say... Don
t forget, as i said before, I am ONLY taking about LONG-TERMERs who want to stay here longer that 1 year. I am more than happy to explain to you IN DETAIL my points...i go into my office tommorrow to start again what i do best... give back to the country , that gave me the opportunity that i have now. And, if youre a long term resident here and you dont feel that any foreigner that wants to stay here "long-term" has no right to learn anything...then i think you don`t belong here....go back to your pedastal.0
ambrosia
damax6: I still don't understand why you're shouting. Perhaps the stress of your important job has gotten to you.
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KaptainKichigai
no kidding Damax, chill. We are all just talking here. You got so worked up, you didnt even notice your fonts were going crazy and your spell checks were non checks. The word "must" is very strong. Obviously in Japan, they musnt because there are plenty of foreigners here that only use English. Your opinion that they should learn to read and write as you did, doesnt make it a "must". Try visiting China if you havent already, then you can see, in places just across the sea like Jinan and Xindaou, what "must" is really like. That was like being on a whole different planet. Japan isnt that difficult. Everyone is educated in basic English although they are either too shy (most) or too lazy (old men, cab drivers) to use it. But I couldnt even order a glass of water in China. Seriously, something as simple as "excuse me" and "water" and "gulp gulp gulp" was a 0 register on the comprehension graph. They had no clue. To live there, you "must" speak the language, or you starve (yes a bit of an exaggeration but not much).
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