I think many Japanese women feel that they can never live up to the refined beauty that they feel Western women strive for. So, instead, they shoot for a cute look, one that doesn’t require tall, curvaceous bodies and instead emphasizes girlishness.

Wednesday 06th August, 06:54 AM JST

Designer Naoto Hirooka, whose brand h. Naoto is one of the main creative forces behind Gothic Lolita. He says the whole Lolita look — like much of the anime culture with which it is intricately entwined — is an escape into a childish world of cute. (AP)

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ExPrinceska at 01:28 PM JST - 6th August

Never heard of Riyo Mori?

who is she? lol
ExPrinceska at 01:34 PM JST - 6th August

Perhaps a bit presumptive for a woman to know what men want and/or admire, no?

It is not only my observation but i read it also in psychological and evolutional books about attraction between male-female. Women would like men stronger than them, and men would like women weaker than them, it is nature.
beithsidhe at 01:38 PM JST - 6th August

Perhaps what ExPrinceska needed to do was begin her post with the word "many" - of course it is not all men, nor even all Japanese men. Many men, like theneworder66 and my own husband, prefer grown women with strong personalities and opinions but, like most fashions, the "kawai" fashion would not have taken hold so completely if it had not had the "patronage" of many, many more men with the opposite view. The desire for partnership and to be acknowledged as beautiful is something even the strongest of women desire (and most teens to early adulthood women are not at their strongest) and to deny that fashions that men don't like die a fast death and vice-versa is simply to deny reality.
DanManjt at 01:59 PM JST - 6th August

I recognize many Japanese women feel that they need not live up to the anti-feminine ideal some Western women strive for. So, instead, they happily revel in their femaninity, one that doesn’t induce bloated bodies and instead emphasizes femaninity.
ExPrinceska at 02:08 PM JST - 6th August

very funny how some of you begin opposing Japanese woman against "Western woman". what is a western woman? A Russian, an American, a Turkish, Italian...? And only the Japanese women are feminine? This is very childish and as a say, speaks of men's inferiority complex.
DanManjt at 02:29 PM JST - 6th August

Very funny how the quote of the day set up the opposition of Japanese woman against * many* "Western woman". What is a western woman? Certainly not a Russian, or a Turk. But we don't talk of the West. Only many in the West. And only in the West do we dream up fanciful forgiveness for the obesity epidemic. Now that very harmfull, and speaks of Man's folly. Sex aside.
beithsidhe at 04:25 PM JST - 6th August

It is possible to be womanly and not obese and also girlish and obese - this has nothing to do with obesity, it has to do with girlish cuteness versus womanly elegance - neither of which are exclusive of any country. The designer is talking about body shape and the style adopted, not body size.

Frankly, DanManjt you prove the point that there are men whose idea of what is feminine is severely twisted if you automatically assume that anyone who is larger than a perfect example of kawai is obese. Clearly, those who hold this attitude believe that once a woman (including Japanese women) is fully grown and/or not wearing clothing to titilate men then she is no longer feminine. There is a looong way between a perfectly kawai girl and obesity which is a medical definition not just anyone's idea of "too fat" for them to be aroused by.
gerryinengland at 06:25 PM JST - 6th August

I don't know anything about fashion and have not visited Japan. A friend who has says (many) Japanese women are beautiful and older ones look so much younger than Western women.
usaexpat at 11:32 PM JST - 6th August

Are we so sure that it's because Japanese women feel they can't "live up to" western women? I don't know any Japanese women who feel that they are trying to live up to a western definition of beauty. The definition of beauty is quite different from country to country and among ethnic groups. This is one guy's take and keep in mind a guy who has created a crrepy fashion style to boot.
lipscombe at 11:34 PM JST - 6th August

what is a western woman? A Russian, an American, a Turkish, Italian...? And only the Japanese women are feminine? This is very childish and as a say, speaks of men's inferiority complex.

hahahaha, you dont mind using the catch all 'western man' phrase though eh? who do YOU mean exactly? kind of childish no? speaking of women's inferiority complex innit?
ExPrinceska at 11:46 PM JST - 6th August

yes, it is good to teach you a lesson!
lipscombe at 10:13 AM JST - 7th August

the only thing I'm learning from you is the value of unintentional comedy
DanManjt at 12:08 PM JST - 7th August

beithsidhe

You argue against a strawman. I simply did not post what you seem to think -- judging from your post-- I did . Your misunderstanding of my position results, I fear, largely from what you bring to the issue, rather than what I wrote and believe.

I will, nevertheless, to address your points in turn:

Womanly and girlie females comes in a variety of waste lines; but to suggest femaninity has nothing to do with fitness and obesity is patently absurd. While the designer may not be talking body size talking, I am.

I am because in my country -- the US -- obesity is rampant, and becoming accepted. In her country -- Japan -- smoking is rampant and accepted. Both of these are serious health risks that should not be tolerated, let alone accepted. And it is hardly a revelation to accept that things that pose serious health risks are unattractive. And part of the reason why obesity is rampant, and becoming accepted, is because people make fanciful excuses for it.

And they shouldn't.

One of the more insidious excuses for obesity in women is that their is nothing really wrong with it, because bad bad men have warped women's ideas of beauty, blah blah blah.

Frankly, beithsidhe, you support the notion that there are too many who are too quick to slander or libel anyone who challenges the prevailing lies and myths put forth by some of the so-called feminists.
OgieDoggie at 03:24 AM JST - 8th August

timtak says: I think that the Japanese desire to be cute has little to do with the fact that they can not "live up to the refined beauty that they feel Western women strive for." The ideals are different, but it is not as if cuteness is some sort of second best.

I totally agree with timtak on this one.
Kijimuna at 05:21 AM JST - 8th August

TPOJ, thanks for the reply. If it's just a matter of colors and hair length, that would be one thing, but it's also not the case. You deconstructed the traditional as man-catching, with which I can't agree, but why not do the same for the other. What ideals if any can be articulated from the looks, anime and music? I'm surprised you'd suggest Gothic Lolita is something more feminist than traditional arts. If my hypothetical 14 year-old prefers tea over black lipstick and Miss Moppet get-ups, I'd be damn glad. I know which is more inclined to give her the discipline and carriage to do something meaningful when she's put herself in that position. There is something wrong with silly. And skanky too.