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© 2014 AFPDarvish benched for rest of season by Rangers
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© 2014 AFP
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jerseyboy
Really a shame that both Darvish and Tanaka are both on the shelf with elbow problems.
toshiko
Best for startng pitchers. These two teams overuse starting pitchers. At some other teams in which managers were catchers, the pitchers are not overused. For instance last week, Angels used 8 pitchers in one game to win against Oakland. Angels manager used to be Dodgers catcher and he knows when pitchers have to be switched from bull pen. He couldn't care less if he is rediculed. And Angels is winning. about every day. Tanaka needs rest, too.
David Varnes
Both Darvish and Tanaka are the latest example that the MLB is learning the hard way: the way that pitchers are brought up through the ranks in Japan, what with high school pitchers routinely throwing complete games, almost every game of the season, and also routinely throwing much longer in the NPB than MLB pitchers do, most of the pitchers who do make it over to the MLB from Japan are ticking time bombs in terms of major injuries. Their arms are almost totally "thrown out" by the time these guys make it to the MLB.
toshiko
Darvish to bench is understandable. Rangers are way bottom in AL West. Last year, Darvish made Rangers hopeful to AL chanp. So was Yankees for AL East. Tanak pitch had scare many teams. I'd bet AL West are now relaxing. I don;t know about Orioles but Orioles seem to be on AL champ hope this year after Yankees seem to gave up AL champ slot. We don't know wild card candidate team yet but Darvish and Tanaa out of picture that Angels has a chance this year. Seems WS will be in California.
stormcrow
Darvish is so popular in Texas and the Texans were so happy he decided to come there to play.
I hope he makes a full & speedy recovery.
toshiko
@sto,orow: Darvish is very popular in Calif, too. MLB fans tend not to care where they come from, Just we applaud excellent players. I thought if Rangers gave more rest at the beginning, Angels had no chance like last year when Rangers were dominating. This year, bad luck at games but when he get healthy, next year, Angels need miracle when they go to Texas.
stormcrow
toshiko,
I hear ya'! I was just tryin' to point out how lucky the Texans felt and how grateful they were that Darvish decided to come to their home state knowing he could have gone anywhere he wished.
jerseyboy
David -- not 100% sure of that now. I saw or read a story somewhere that it could be that in pro ball in Japan, the pitchrs only pitch every sixth or ev seventh day, where in MLB its every five days.
smithinjapan
David is correct. The practices differ between pitchers brought up in Japan and elsewhere, and while that produces some amazing pitchers from Japan, they usually don't last too long once -- IF -- they reach the majors. They need to start giving these kids a break and bringing in relief pitchers. I mean, look at the highschool game between Hiroshima and Mie last week; the same pitchers pitched for more than FIFTY innings over THREE DAYS! That's more than 17 innings a day.
Anyway, I hope Darvish and Tanaka both recover, and it's good to see their teams taking care of them and giving them a break. Get well soon, guys, and don't overdo it if and when you come back.
senseiman
It isn`t so much how often the pitchers start and how many innings they throw, its more the training regimen behind that. Its more common for pitchers in Japan, especially in high school, to throw 100 pitches or so everyday rather than letting their arms rest, which is standard in MLB.
With Daisuke Matsuzaka that has been directly tied to his abysmal performance in the majors after having two really good seasons to start his MLB career. The Red Sox trainers had a ton of trouble just trying to convince him of the need to rest his arm between starts.
They used to have the same problem with pitchers in the US - Sandy Koufax and Dwight Gooden both blew out their arms relatively young due to over-use - but since the 80s they have significantly altered their approach to pitching practice. Im not sure how much NPB has followed suit in recent years, certainly in the 90s they still had thethrow til your arm falls off` mentality.
bicultural
Blowing out arms / elbows at a young age is a huge problem in America right now. The number of Tommy John surgeries performed on youths (high school or younger) has increased 10 times over the last 10 years. Taken from an article online :
"Dr. Timothy Kremcheck is the physician for the Cincinnati Reds and an orthopaedic surgeon who frequently treats young pitchers. He said that he performs 150 elbow ligament reconstructions per year, and 70 percent of those surgeries are on pitchers who have not yet hit college."
A recent study showed that 57% of baseball pitchers pitched 2 consecutive days or more.
David Varnes
jerseyboy- It's not so much the length between rests, but the cumulative effects of everything prior to them entering the pro ranks. As mentioned, the game recently where two pitchers threw 50 innings apiece, over three days. The winning pitcher threw over 525 pitches, the loser over 550.
The articles in JT recently about Koshien pointed out some of the more extreme examples of pitchers who in the course of this single tournament would throw hundreds and hundreds of pitches. This AFTER getting to Koshien, meaning the pitchers have dozens of games on their arms, and tens of thousands of pitches just by the time they finish high school.
Also, the NPB managers will keep pitchers in more innings than their MLB counterparts. This leads to pitchers putting more stress on their arms when the muscles are tired. As the wisdom goes, athletes don't get hurt when they are fresh (combative sports notwithstanding). They get hurt when they are trying to push through when they are tired. They get hurt when trying to go 100% on muscles that can no longer deliver 100%. This is the exact game situation pitchers are put in routinely in NPB. And that doesn't even go into the practice and training regimens, which are more stressful to say the least.
Pandabelle
So much misinformation in these comments!!
@David Varnes
This is completely incorrect. Please explain why none of these pitchers have had any history of injury in Japan, when they follow the training regimens that they have since they were young. The incidence of arm trouble in NPB is much lower than in MLB. Have you not noticed the epidemic of arm injuries in MLB this year? None of that in NPB.
@smith
That wasn't a baseball game, it was a softball game, and the last games of those kids' careers. Did you not see the emotion on their faces when they final was complete? These are not pro prospects, these are kids competing in their last possible tourney.
@senseiman
This is completely backwards. Red Sox trainers did not allow him to follow the training regimen that enabled his success in Japan. They paid a lot of money for a pitcher who had been very successful over many years using a specific training regimen that had served him well, and threw that regimen out the window because "they knew best".
Well apparently they didn't - this young, healthy, successful pitcher developed arm troubles under the regime developed by Red Sox trainers, a regime that was totally different than anything else he had used. Gee, I wonder if they didn't actually know best at all?
MLB uses a 5 man rotation rather than the NPB 6 man rotation. I strongly suspect this is the main contributor to the rash of arm injuries in MLB. Perhaps they don't know what they're doing after all?
senseiman
Because they are younger during their NPB days, whereas by the time they make the majors they are in their late 20s/early 30s and entering the period in their careers when such injuries would more likely manifest themselves?
Not sure if two guys getting arm trouble constitutes an epidemic, nor am I certain that there are no NPB pitchers having arm troubles, just off the top of my head I can think of a couple of pitchers who have been on the DL here.
Really its just a matter of conflicting opinions with regard to Matsuzaka, I don`t think either one of us is qualified to say which explanation for his arm trouble (too much pitching practice in Japan vs too much rest in the US) is at fault. Intuitively the former explanation seems more plausible to me, but I admit to not being an expert on sports medicine.
toshiko
Angels have different approach to starting pitchers and bull pen members. Because Mike S was an established cathcer under Tammy l's management, he does not go on pitching count. As soon as he notices his pitcher is tired, he sign to bull pen to begin throwing practice. Then often he and in-fielder go to mound and do lengthy talks with the pitcher and umpire has to bread up meetings, By then bull pen member is ready. slowly they stay out. Last week on tough game against A's. he used 8 pitchers to win one game. He also utilize minor league players. Angels and Dodgers have a bunch of players whose contract is $20 m a year and when Tanaka was available, they were not interested even Tanaka was not as expensive as what they pay. Mariner was interested but Yankees got. Well. Mariners now have a Japanese pitcher Iwakuma and they are still in Wild Card list in AL. Angels are short on pitchers but everyday winning with power hitters and new players from its miner league sudden stars. When faced to Tanaka first time, Angels pitching analyst explained why its power hitters failed against Tanaka and created a phrase Tanaka Pitch. It had hard tiem last year against Darvish. Without Tanaka and Darvish, low ranked Angels are top in AL West this year.
dmhondz
No, Angels are on top of AL West because they are hitting really well specially this late on the season, not because the Japanese pitchers are injured. Yankees are AL East so Tanaka pitch to them only twice or thrice the whole season. Darvish, pitches every 5 to 6 days so he pitches to the Angels no more than 5 times the whole season. Please don`t talk like these good Japanese pitchers automatically wins whenever they are on the mound because nobody is that good, and they also need the run support from their offense. One example is Kuroda who always have quality outing but don't have much run support from the Yankees offense.
toshiko
Although Angels is top in AL West, ranking of AL West Wild Cards are still A's top, then Angels and then Mariners. From last year's lanking, Angels was vey low. Not only Angels pitching analysts, power hitters talked about Tanaka Pitch last year, On //tv screen, pitching box shown and how Tanak Pitch wind up strike zpne into catcher's mitt straight in. This year, power hitters have no problem when they faced any games against Yankees, Trout and Pujols told in Angels pregame show. Conger (catcher) also explained at another after game Angels show. There are 3 Angels prep and after shows in FSW show (49 and 1049). In West, we couldn;t care less players are black, white, brown, Latino or Orientals. We don't even know Darvish is Japanese. By spelling, others, some kind of Latino, Asian, etc. Angels fans have placrad of FISH, etc and we figure Congers and Trout the placard meant and that was it. **** We know Tanaka is Japanese from Japan because on talk time, interpreter comes to mound and so others who do not have interpreters, guessing is usually American Japanese (guessing from the spelling of names.)
Pandabelle
senseiman
Don't think there's much of a correlation between age and Tommy John surgery. In MLB Strasburg, Fernandez, Harvey all very young when they developed arm troubles.
Sure, there have been several on the DL, but not many with TJ surgery. Asao, right? Several years back Saitoh was a total killer until arm troubles killed his career. But I have a hard time thinking of many big name pitchers in NPB who missed significant time due to arm troubles. Iwakuma had some injury issues but obviously he's perfectly healthy later in his career.
toshiko
Well, Angels have many Bull Pen pitchers who are not in '30s. Majority are in early'20s. Also, it has young players such as Trout and recent power hitters Angels brought from its minors. DL do not depend on ages. Only a couple of pitchers on DL list? So many now as the season is going to end.It is not April or May. Plenty players are on DL now.