Microsoft begins corporate sales of Windows 7

Wednesday 02nd September, 07:00 AM JST

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Klein2 at 07:27 AM JST - 3rd September

Tokyo, Flammen, Cliffy... There is much to agree with. My experience with LINUX is that I spent a lot of time tinkering and downloading and kluging. I also build my machines and remember the WIN95 manna of default drivers that would just let you continue even if you could not find the BEST driver.

I have most enjoyed the tiny Linux versions, and still do, but worry about security.

What a choice though... Linux or Bloat!! Perhaps my RANT should contain the obvious point that lack of compatibility guarantees obsolescence. And why should compatibility be a problem for something so simple as a file format? I do not see any reason why a typical file cannot be simple code with a simple header, which could be treated differently according to what it is viewed with. WIN used to be better at this than MAC, which explains why Apple used to have 50% return on assets. Now Microsoft wants everyone buying new OS and computers every three or four years just to maintain compatability with some rich fool's new machine.

Everyone else is screaming YIPPEE! All I can do is groan and say... UGH Here we go again.

And TokyoRoughGuy, aren't you finding that your options for building new machines are quite limited compared to, say, a decade ago? Things in the box are getting tighter and tighter, and more proprietary. I see a day not too far in the future when Dell shoves a sealed box at us with Windows 8 preinstalled and says, "sign your leasing agreement here.... take it or leave it." I am sure nobody will complain. We will all just shrug collectively as we are doing now.
thedeath at 10:03 AM JST - 3rd September

Jackseoul, first of read my post well before you try to just me. Ok?

I am talking about mac fanboy wrong stereotype on window system. I did not try to hit your beloved mac system. I just told the fact that mac was hack in less than 2 minutes, truth is really that hurt? I has been using it morethan 20 years and almost 15 years professionally. I can not see anything better than window as mac want it to be.

“I don't hate mac as a machine and system. I hate mac fanboy's blinded attitude like what you just show.” I hope that clear.

Many pc people I know would say the same.
jackseoul at 11:04 AM JST - 3rd September

@thedeath

You originally said this:

"And saying mac is stable also another fanboy’s wrong stereotype too."

Now you say:

"Jackseoul, first of read my post well before you try to just me. Ok? I am talking about mac fanboy wrong stereotype on window system. I did not try to hit your beloved mac system."

Obviously you can't read what you write or I can't understand your written English. It's obvious you know nothing about Macs. You can't explain why Windows is better than the Mac. In fact most people that hate the Mac just aren't exposed to it enough to know. They read it on the net or heard it from some zombie, but have never even touched a Mac. I keep hearing that only Graphic Designers use it... if I could get a nickel for every parrot who repeated that, I would be rich. Go to the Mac site and look up Snow Leopard. I know you've never heard of it, but take a peek... go play with it at the Apple store. You won't because you don't want to be proven wrong.

You say you've worked with the Mac for more than 20 years. I have also worked with the Mac for 24 years, starting with Illustrator 88, Aldus Superpaint... if you've worked with Macs at that time, then you should know the problems the industry had working with PCs. I'm not knocking PCs because there is a place for it, but defending Windows when MS put Vista on the market? All the security issues and years waiting for patches? A patch every other day? I know you don't play with Macs because you need all that time to patch your PC. Read my previous posts... I do play with Windows and Unix too.
jackseoul at 11:08 AM JST - 3rd September

sorry, I meant 21 years
thedeath at 11:30 AM JST - 3rd September

so how stable it is when someone can hack in to your house and take control of it in less than 2 minute ?

next, why do i have to explain what make window better than a mac? i said i am not hate mac as a machine and os, i hate the mac fan boy wrong attitude on window.

i always say both system got it own good and bad.

you has been using mac for 21 years, and that make you know that i never ever touch a mac? that is the mac fanboy attitude i was talking about.

then illustrator88, i didn't use that i stick with freehand at that time, but what it can proof? nothing but only telling how long you use illustrator!

to be fair, most fanboy that hate everything but not mac also haven't exposed to the other system enough to know it too.

yeah keep plashing vista, everyone do, i do too. Then try windows7.

you can download win7 at home without spend your day going to apple store to test the snow, but i guess you won't because… well, I better leave it to you because I am not a pc god that know everything about mac user!
jackseoul at 12:38 PM JST - 3rd September

@the death,

As I keep saying, if you've ever worked for a decent sized design firm, then you will have used a Unix server, PCs and Macs. My first job was at a printing company that had just that. We had to take care of these systems... IT was at its infancy. We used a Sun SPARC server, Macs for design & PCs for file conversions and odd jobs. Yes, I have worked with PCs!

You're the first PC-user that attacks Mac-users and not its operating system or hardware. Usually, you attack the system... it brings me to believe that you have inadequacy issues. If you want to debate, then it's best to debate regarding the pros and cons about, in this case, Windows 7 and compare with another operating system, no?
thedeath at 01:12 PM JST - 3rd September

You're the first PC-user that attacks Mac-users

wrong, i am not attacking mac user because i am considering part of myself as one of them. i attack mac fanboy on their attitude toward ... whatever not mac.

i am a mac and pc user but i am not mac or window fan.

"use" to me mean use not test or play. i use it on my daily base, but i play with Linux.

i am not a tech guy and i will never be. i "use" it as a designer. honestly say, technical debate i can never go far. but its usability, i sure i know it because i use it. that why i again say that both system got it own good and bad which might help people improve productivity at work.

are you sure you use windows7, not just test it or play with it? and what do you want to debate? the "Microsoft begins corporate sales of Windows 7" debate? i have seen so many debate and poll about win7 vs ... since i start using windows7 for real over a year ago because i couldn't stand the crapy vista. i still can see something in win7 to improve. i debate against window'S fanboy a lot when vista fist came out. it crap who could stand reading how good vita is?!

i has never gotten my hand on snow for real but only short play with it in a store. but os-x yeah, i am using it.

what side should i take on the debate?

all in all, i really don't like mac fanboy attitude/stereotype. you can consider me attack their attitude but again i am not attacking mac users.
The_True at 01:13 PM JST - 3rd September

"@ The True

Your comments are word for word something I read from another site, about video architecture from almost a year ago?

Are you kidding?" >

just tell me that i am wrong, or that is the only thing you can say?

typical mac fanboi!!!

by the way!! i just upgrade to Snow Leopard, and now i can't use many things like the Emobile express card and the AU Express card, Traktor Pro keep crashing. and i dont see any difenrent on the system.

yes i have a mac pro with the Intel nehalem 8 core and a Macbook pro 17 3.0ghz uni-body, but i use windows in both systems because OSX suck, is good maybe for people like you that can't use computer, and only use it for open the application they use, email and the internet, the only thing i like is the design of the case,if you say that the apple design is the best for laptop, i be 100% with you, and remember that every little hardware come from the windows world, well had been on the windows world before was on the mac world, Intel, nvidia, Realtek and Seagate to name a few. but i don't like OSX.
jackseoul at 01:59 PM JST - 3rd September

@the true,

Yes, you are wrong with your plagiarized piece of work. You mentioned that you installed Snow Leopard on your Macs. Then, look at the specs of Snow Leopard and you will know why you are wrong. That plagiarized piece was written by someone else 10 months ago!!!! Things have change!

Just admit that you're a plagiarizer! How are we supposed to take you seriously?! I knew something was fishy when the written English changed... like someone else wrote parts of it.

Oh, and you're so smart you bought 2 Mac computers that you don't like AND you're running Windows on them?! You must have installed preview versions of OS X on both of them for sure. You were so happy that the first Mac didn't work properly with the upgrade that, "oops, you did it again" to the second one? You should know what you're doing before you install a new OS. And you're telling me I don't know how to use computers?!!!

You my friend do not own 2 Macs because you hate Macs or just plain ridiculous. I my friend have 3 Macs and 2 PCs... a Commodore 64... a Tandy handheld... & Tandy laptop. Tells you how long I've been using computers. I am no guru, but you sure made yourself look like one with your plagiarizing.
jackseoul at 02:11 PM JST - 3rd September

@the death,

just because a person prefers something, he is a fanboi? It's attitudes like that that cause people to question what type of intelligence those name-callers have. This is no way to start a debate. If a person makes one good comment about a Mac, then people jump on them. Usually, those people have never touched a Mac. Those Mac-haters must be fanbois as well.
thedeath at 03:26 PM JST - 3rd September

just because a person prefers something, he is a fanboi?

no, i am sure a person should not be judged only by that.

but the attitude like this

in the creative world where systems need to perform and not interfere with creative processes, Mac blows MS away every single time. No contest.

and

I watch Windows users going through four or five dialog boxes in order to perform a task that I can do with one mouse click, and ask why people are willing to put up with such crap.

that will do to me! and attitude like that create a lot more mac hater to come. more people hate mac not because of it hardware and OS but the attitude propaganda Apple try to do and successfully done it in a certain level.

it sad but truth.
IgnoMax at 04:41 PM JST - 3rd September

@the true

I just registered here because I came across by accident on your mendacious pack of lies and misrepresentations that was so odious that I just could not leave it lying here unchallenged and misinforming people.

Let's go with you need to log off to switch video card, and why windows don't..

You mean you do not need to power down a Windows 7 system while replacing its primary video hardware?! Its a lie of course. The only systems on the market capable of that are high-end servers that run exclusively Unix and Linux variants, because no Microsoft (or Apple) product is capable of dealing with having major hardware components of its platform like CPUs or RAM or primary video display adapter changed while running. Not to mention more advanced features like NUMA.

As to the gutless wonder called WDDM, one has to note that none of the Linux distros have to be rebooted upon a supported kernel driver insertion or installation, and this has been the case ever since modular kernels were introduced, somewhere around the time Microsoft was busy hyping Windows 95.

As to the lies about the GPU use: code running on GPUs is the domain of specialized drivers (as the GPU is not running the x86 code that all Windows PCs normally do) and thus the process is handled by the GPU manufacturer drivers which vary wildly from maker to maker. nVidia for example is very fond of something called the "unified driver" system whereby nearly all of their driver code is identical between various platforms (it only makes sense for the company to keep things easy to maintain). That means whatever Vista or W7 can do with its nVidia GPUs ... so can a Mac or a Linux box. By definition. That is why the drivers are called unified.

NVidia doing anything, the NVidia driver is just telling Vista what it is doing and Vista knows how to handle it inherently.

This is truly moronic. Vista or W7 have no means of "handling" anything "inherently" because they do not execute the GPU code. All an OS can do is to manage access to GPUs. And Linux for example is capable of all the same pretty crap Vista or W7 can do through things like Compiz and Beryl. Mac has been doing the same for ages with its desktop.

OSS movement that is still working on OpenGL composers and other video tricks that are a generation behind core features of Vista.

There is absolutely nothing OpenGL cannot do that Vista has. In fact all the new developments in rendering, texture post-processing, programmable shaders and the like were first developed in OpenGL context and presented in various papers at SIGGRAPH, decades before Vista was around. What you see now is just an implementation of these old ideas which were unfeasible back then due to lack of cheap computing power.

Under estimating or ignorning what Microsoft is doing is why they always stay ahead of the technology curve and when the next level of hardware hits, they are already able to use it while everyone else races to catch up.

You gotta be kidding. Microsoft hasn't "innovated" anything whatsoever since its very conception. They are purely marketing and vendor lock-in driven company. All of their "technologies" are (usually piss-poor) adaptations of old ideas or those of its competitors. As to being "ready" for new tech ... its pure insanity. Linux runs on literally dozens of platforms as dissimilar as cell-phones and mainframes, with completely and radically different CPU and system architectures. Most new architectures and technologies first get tested on Linux (like for example USB3.0 which has had Linux drivers, which no other system had, for a long time).

Microsoft on the other hand gets "ready" for new tech by the simple method of bullying all of its dependant slave vendors into making their hardware compatible with whatever the latest garbage it wants to peddle. And most of the vendors, being a captive audience due to vendor lock-in, have no choice but to comply.

Rather than even addressing the monolithic nature of the BSD/MACH design,

MACH "monolithic"?! Its called a "micro-kernel" for a reason, you ignorant dolt. It is extremely modular, so modular in fact that Linux people see it as a fault. Linux is far less modular than MACH is, and this is coming from a Linux user and kernel hacker.

Take one example: NTFS, it is 16 years old, and the *nix community is still trying to catch up to features and speed NTFS offers. ZFS is the only thing on the horizon that might finally achieve this Holy Grail.)

Riiiight. NTFS has no following of any kind in OSS world (other than an attempt to get stuff moved to and from it). It is a piss-poor excuse for a file system full of proprietary kludges and nonsensical crud. Also, ZFS is far more capable than NTFS but even it is just one of many file systems in use by various Linux flavours and it is not any sort of "holy grail" at all. The current mainline Linux file system under development is called btrfs, with feature set far, far superior to NTFS in pretty much every respect. Standard Linux ext3 system has all the features of NTFS and more, with far more flexibility (journalling level can be controlled and split to different devices etc etc). And that is not mentioning a variety of volume managers, software RAID (which Linux had for decades and Microsoft just "innovated" into Vista) etc etc. And I won't even get into distributed file systems, built-in virtualization and on and on and on....

I won’t go any further on the massive conceptual differences between NT and *nixes in general.

You'd better not. You have only lies to offer and if you would somehow tell the truth, no one would enjoy the spectacle of you beating yourself on the head with a mallet.

However, people that do what to understand, go look up ‘client/server kernel NT’ or even pull up any of the original NT design books/whitepapers on why the UNIX model was an option but not used because of the inherent flaws in what makes the UNIX model. Even just check out the NT object model that is in contrast to the I/O device textual model of a UNIX design.

NT has a "micro-kernel" (which is what BSD/MACH has and which was all the rage in the Unix world waaaaay back when, loooong before NT days). NT in fact is based on the Unix micro-kernel idea. Which is also known as the "message-passing client/server" kernel model. Same. As. BSD.

Linus purposefully chose a different model for Linux for a variety of technical reasons which would surely go over your head if I tried to explain them to you. Which incidentally resulted in famous schism between Linux and BSD camps which lasts till today. But to pretend that NT has some sort of new idea at the core, one that hasn't been done many times before Microsoft clumsily appropriated it and exclaimed it as its own is pure demagoguery.

Vista and Office 2007 is just one example of moving away from dated UI concepts like Menus, and even if not perfect, at least the Microsoft Research team is putting a lot of effort into moving forward to what is 'next', unlike Apple and OS X.

Hahahahaha! Incidentally, this "innovation" was cited as the main reason why most of companies decided not to upgrade to Office 2007, nor Vista. User revolt. The new interfaces are designed for "new" users, with no prior experience and habitual use of the old ones. Retraining costs, productivity losses were massive everywhere where deployed. Microsoft clearly hopes its customers will just suck it up. That is why W7 no longer can easily be put into the "Classic" menu modes and the Fischer-Price kindergarten interface is all you get.

And then there is of course the whole saga of user permissions, multi-user security (which Microsoft "innovated" into desktops in XP for the first time - some "Operating Systems" manufacturer they are!) the gazillions of viruses and malware and its attendant anti-malware "protection" rackets etc etc.

Given all this, the simple conclusion is that you are maliciously and willfully ignorant and are desperate to infect others with your disease.

I will end this debate on this note. You whine and moan about how superior W7 is and all I have to do is type this in another terminal, on this very system I am posting this from:

$uptime 01:44:01 up 1540 days, 11:21, 4 users, load average: 0.17, 0.21, 0.13

Thats right. This Linux box has been powered up for longer than Vista and W7 combined have been around

Ponder that, genius.
TokyoRoughGuy at 05:22 AM JST - 4th September

Klein2,

No, I don't find it more limited now. There are better motherboards out there with better support for external devices and a greater range of affordable RAM, hard drives (nice to see Western Digital, some of the best hard drives in the world, very affordable now) and even outbound SATA hookups that don't use up a card space. I actually think the opposite, there are almost too many choices and I'm at a loss as to what to do to replace this obsolete box running Core 2 Quad 2.83 with 4 gigs of RAM.
RandomTask at 10:15 AM JST - 6th September

Now is a good time to get a copy of the new windows and an Intel SSD (Think i might just do that for me new laptop actually!).
Klein2 at 09:09 PM JST - 6th September

Well, Tokyo. There it is. If your last sentence is not a joke, then the joke is on you. If you are seriously using that system to post messages to Japan Today, and looking for a better one, then Microsoft loves you. Everyone needs something to spend money on, I guess.

I use old used parts to make systems for next to nothing. My encounters with problems where "this does not fit with that and the other thing" continue to grow. It is frustrating for me, but I could see where opening my wallet in Akihabara would solve all my problems. We differ on that point. Your constraint is money. That is not a constraint for me. I am frustrated by the lack of meaningful choices and configurations.

Just as one example for you, I am betting that your 4 Gig is fitting into two slots, right? Well, there used to be four and six in motherboards. I have one with eight slots for RAM boards. When RAM was expensive, you bought smaller boards, when it was cheap, you could pack up the slots. Cant do that now. Overclocking is very difficult these days, and the processors are so hot to begin with, I am more afraid of fire than melting the mother board. Seems like the number of motherboard makers has dropped considerably, and they offer a lot more plain vanilla than flavors these days. The way that the chips handle cache management has also become uninteresting.

This is all not unlike what is happening with automobiles. Engine tweaking is out of the question for most people. It has been replaced by chip hacking. Soon enough the hoods of cars and computer boxen will closed at the factory, and replacement parts will be modules, not components.