Oil firms to test recharging service for electric cars at gas stations

Thursday 13th August, 06:52 AM JST

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Klein2 at 02:46 PM JST - 13th August

A 100 times better idea would be to have such stations at parking facilities, department stores, large companies etc.

You can fill up a 40 liter tank in 5 minutes. Charging batteries too fast will overheat them and ruin them. You want to have charge stations where you are willing to hang around for a couple hours at least.

Look for PRIUS rechargeable/ plug in cars very soon. Pressure from teh GM volt will move Toyota along to the next stage of cars that get 180 mpg... if you don't count the electricity. Let's get that infrastructure in place and move on people!! My solar panels on my house need something to charge UP!!
JohnBecker at 01:05 AM JST - 14th August

Good point, Klein, but I still think the only way this is going to work will be to have a universal battery pack that can be swapped out in 5 minutes. Don't make me wait to charge my battery, just swap my battery for one that's already charged.

Admittedly, this can only work if the battery pack is the same for most cars. That's probably the biggest obstacle to something like this working.
sf2k at 03:13 AM JST - 14th August

these companies see the writing on the wall and want to still be in business as energy providers. However when your business model is ruined by a simple extension cord, at home, at work, anywhere, you can't really think people will pay extra.

You could do your main charging at night then trickle charge during the day like a cellphone. Even some solar panels on the car would help.

Japan is the right market for these cars, since a majority take the train anyway the few electric cars that will be around will be enough for rentals and special purpose trips. The rest will be trains.

the electric car market will not make a dent in North America since the culture is car driven. Until the cities themselves are redesigned to be closer and more human scaled, until the end of suburbia, the scale won't work for electric cars. The scale will work in Europe and Japan though.

Thus the more human scaled cities can take a smaller electric car first, and America will be last in terms of adoption.
sf2k at 03:25 AM JST - 14th August

it takes a lot of energy to make a car anyway, and since we've entered Peak Oil, the ability of all nations to drive will diminish as the years go on, electric car or not. You can't drive an electric car if you can't build the car or if there aren't enough lithium batteries to begin with.

A more efficient use of our time and energy are electric scooters. I see them around my city a lot now, as they don't require a license and students use them. 32km/h top speed for maybe an hour at level grade, for simple ones, top ones around 70km/h for two hours. Just fine for city use.

Take the same amount of energy to make a car and divide it up to make scooters instead and that becomes a more equitable means of getting more people to use electric than cars.

Cars or scooters doesn't matter. All this should have been done years ago, and it will be too late for most of us.
societymike at 10:48 AM JST - 14th August

Klein2, while I agree with your point of it being a better idea to install machines at other locations, i think this is just a test phase. I doubt the companies haven't thought of eventually installing "vending like" power machines are pay-to-park lots and so on.

sf2k, I for one know there is still PLENTY of life in the modern car. There is so much technology to expand the current auto, even on Gasoline engines, not to mention hybrid, electric, or hydrogen fuel cell autos. I hope to god not too many others share your vision of a scooter riding utopia, (if that is your view). Whatever happened to the love of the car? The passion of driving, the fun and convenience of going wherever you want... it's still there and many people still feel this way fortunately. That is why the modern car is not going anywhere anytime soon.
sf2k at 01:59 PM JST - 14th August

dude you have to read up on Peak Oil, if you think you're going to drive a car in the next 10 years you're in for an abrupt surprise. Or maybe I'm in for an abrupt surprise and we have enough non-internal combustion engines to go around.

Sources: End of Suburbia movie (go bitorrent it)

Sources: Try http://www.theoildrum.com they have a column on the left or right with different Defcon levels

Sources: Is Peak Oil Real? A List of Countries Past Peak :: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5576

Thus the car as we know it is in decline, by all means enjoy it while it lasts, I'm sure it'll be a while but if we're relying on the stability of Nigeria and the Middle East we're not preparing.

We will want to leave oil before oil leaves first. Electric for transportation will be key, but production will be hampered by lack of oil, thus smaller vehicles like scooters would work.

The irony will be that in Japan the car is likely to last the longest, since the majority of the population take trains and bicycles.
dontpanic at 04:48 PM JST - 14th August

sf2k - I think youre describing a world that wouldnt work for the majority of us.

Youre right, electric is the way forward for cars but how the energy for those cars is produced and stored is key. Like societymike I believe oil still has a way to go, but, fuel cell vehicles are key to the long term. Why? Because they offer us a way to continue to use our cars the way we do now with relatively minor changes to infrastructure and the participation of the energy companies. Theres no need for humanity to scoot about on electric death traps or, to abandon cities as we know and love them. The systems we have all work, forget thoughts of distopian worlds and disaster. Positive up, adaptation is key.
pawatan at 07:22 PM JST - 14th August

dude you have to read up on Peak Oil, if you think you're going to drive a car in the next 10 years you're in for an abrupt surprise. Or maybe I'm in for an abrupt surprise and we have enough non-internal combustion engines to go around.

Peak Oil is a myth. There are many reasons why oil production is lower now than in previous years; it doesn't necessarily imply there aren't petroleum producing reservoirs in these places, just that they aren't currently being exploited as they were previously. As oil exploration and production techniques improve (and they do improve constantly) more and more petroleum will be discovered and exploited. This is inarguable.

Simple statistical analysis of oil production is essentially meaningless as it disregards economic and political factors that lead to the decline in production.

Of course the world needs to develop alternative energy sources for a cleaner environment and a more sustainable energy economy. Electric cars are a good start towards this. But it's fallacious to assert that there will be no oil produced in the near future; the history of oil E&P suggests otherwise.
sf2k at 03:57 AM JST - 15th August

best links ever:

Arithmetic, Population and Energy Dr Bartlett , University of Boulder Colorado :: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

Energy Secretary Steven Chu :: (Via The Daily Show) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrTsEXBiK3Y&NR=1

ASPO International | The Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas :: http://www.peakoil.net

Peak Oil Primer :: http://www.energybulletin.net/primer

@pawatan

Peak Oil is a myth. There are many reasons why oil production is lower now than in previous years; it doesn't necessarily imply there aren't petroleum producing reservoirs in these places, just that they aren't currently being exploited as they were previously. As oil exploration and production techniques improve (and they do improve constantly) more and more petroleum will be discovered and exploited. This is inarguable.

I see. This is arguable (note links above) and is argued. Just to let you know, Physical scientists (geologists who have prodded the earth looking for oil) with multiple degrees as people who have dedicated their lives to the oil industry as well as trained the students in it wholly disagree with you. (peakoil.net) They have the data and have been up against a Chinese wall of indifference for 50 years. That was the time to change our ways and because we have done nothing we will now suffer for it.

I'll assume though you're a reasonable person so I ask that you please visit the youtube video and primer links noted above. I can argue my sources and use math to back it up. At least try the math in the youtube video as the math cannot be disputed. It's not advanced but because of our inability to understand the exponential function, we will suffer for it. Please try listening to people with a degree. It's very important.

@dontpanic

I agree that adaptation is the key. Electric vehicles in Japan and elsewhere are a part of that. But when it takes roughly 27 barrels of oil of energy to produce a single car, and that oil is not evenly distributed around the world, we're probably going to retrofit what we have and not produce more of the same. We use 6 or 8 barrels of oil for every 1 we produce, so eventually that has to hit a limit. That is not changing.

Electric production as you say is key and thankfully the production of electricity can take many forms. I think it will be more local, house and neighbourhood based rather than large centralized systems because it's easier to conserve energy at the source of use. America's energy secretary Chu noted that painting a rooftop white would be the cheapest thing we could do (link above).

It's not without possibility and I am not a dystopian, although reading the material on Peak Oil is stunning to say the least. After reading and researching it over the last 4 years you come out of the depression side of it and decide to either (a) ignore it, or (b) do something. In doing something I feel positive.

Because of Peak Oil I've decided on my own adaptation. I've been back to school and hope to apply to engineering this winter. I will do something about it. My concentration will be on creating reliable energy sources. I think education is the key, but if we ignore the evidence like global warming, I end up paying the bill that the Boomers' have stiffed me with. Nuts to that.

We need to burst our mental bubble but unfortunately it will take a 1973-esque decline for people to wake up and relearn their grade 10 math.

This video "Arithmetic Population and Energy" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY is truly the best.

Probably the best way to burst that bubble is with simple math, and the above is excellent. Highly recommended.

I will not go gently into that good night!

Cheers
sf2k at 04:18 AM JST - 15th August

for a more humorous take on Oil, checkout Robert Newman (British Humor) here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQhhrzHKMhI
Klein2 at 11:55 AM JST - 16th August

Peak oil is shorthand for increasingly less accessible oil.

It is shorthand. I think sf2k's heart is in the right place, but you do not seem critical of the materials you are reading.

The truth is that the situation has not changed THAT much from 1973. At this moment, there are a lot of oil producing countries waiting for prices to go up so that they can produce more. If we were truly in a PEAK OIL situation, then why did the price fall, and why did it not continue to fall? PEAK OIL was a hysterical idea that humans were extracting at the highest rate possible and that demand could only continue to be high. The first assertion is probably not true. The second is definitely not.

If you really believe Peak Oil is scientific truth, why did you not invest in Dubai real estate? Tell me, why not do it today? The smart money is not betting on Peak Oil, no matter what your simple math tells you. Simple math was used in the predictions of the Club of Rome and Alvin Toffler... sometimes simple math is just simple. Just ask AIG... some of the world's latest supergeniuses who now have their palms permanently embedded in their foreheads.

Anyway, so I come down with Pawatan on this one. Human society will use less fossil fuels per person. Alternative resources will calm the situation quite a bit, and new production, such as Saudi fields from the deep desert, will continue to come on line as needed. Canadian sands and lower grade reserves will be used more efficiently. There are many factors which, together, are likely to ease the world situation.

An earlier poster said that putting these rechargers at gas stations is a test. Uh yeah. I know. As I said, it is a waste of time. I do not want to hang around a gas station drinking coffee waiting for my car to charge, period. I know how the test will end. A somewhat strained analogy is that if people like milk, then milk vending should be done at dairy farms instead of supermarkets. It is wrongheaded. Convenience is key, not logic for the provider's business operations. I know the kind of management genius who came up with this idea. He is 65, picks his nose, drinks too much and smells bad. His coworkers know he is an idiot, but just go along with his nutball ideas and call them "tests". Recharging stations should be at malls, parking garages, long term parking, um... banks haha., pachinko parlors, hot springs, love hotels, etc. Dumb places to put them would be gas stations, fast food drive through windows, freeway toll booths, etc. Sure there are a lot of cars there, but people do not want to hang around.

I have experience with recharging batteries too fast. They explode! If they do not, then they get very hot and their performance degrades.
exatly at 06:51 PM JST - 17th August

If we were truly in a PEAK OIL situation, then why did the price fall, and why did it not continue to fall?

There was peak oil in 2005 and after that oil companies couldn't increase production. Because of that oil prices flew to abnormal high prices. Now we have enough reserves for 1-2 years, but it takes a long time to start being use a new oil-field.

And talk about simple math: if we put less input energy into the system (as we can see on data), we will able to produce less output. Technology won't be more complex, when we use less energy.