Al-Qaida's Zawahri says his organization doesn't kill innocents
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0
SuperLib
What's next, Oprah? :)
0
Hikozaemon
Al Qaeda has actually been going over the top with its recent publicity campaigns, using media networks and the internet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEvbPJrJyek
Peace
0
outhousejt
Haha funny Onion link Hikozaemon.
I am wondering when al Qaida will come with their TV station. al Shabab networks. I hope they will include some game shows and not only news and religion.
0
Zaphod
As usual, a little background knowledge helps when reading statemens from fundamentalists. In this case, one should check how islamists define "innocent". We Westerners tend to use our definition of word -- assuming we are innocent, unless proven guilty. Not so. In the islamist view, unbelievers are guilty by default for the crime of... well, unbelieving. So, Zawihri is not condeming the killing of e.g. Christians and Jews. See also this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4
0
sabiwabi
It has? Are they referring again to that video of a funny looking Osama. By funny, I mean that it does not look like him at all. The video that was certified as authentic by the CIA, incidentally, the same CIA that is behind Al-Qaida!
0
outhousejt
Who do you mean "we westerners"? Are you aware of all the atrocities USA, United Nations have carried out in the past? Forget about the invasion of Iraq prior to the invasion of Iraq it is estimated that some say 500,000 others say 1,5 million people died due to the embargo. USA was bombing Iraq for 10 years then USA invaded Iraq. Not to mention what US has been doing in countries such as Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Sudan, Vietnam, Laos. Giving arms to Suhartu and fincancial support while he was slaughtering people in East Timor. USA is not a very nice country.
We westerners announce in advance of a bombing campaign that some civilian deaths are inevitable, and then, when they occur, say they were accidental and unintended.
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
You seem to have this constant trouble of making up your mind about what your opinion is. You are constantly saying Al-Qaida/Bin Laden were not involved (or the don't exist)and at the same time constantly saying the CIA is behind Al-Qaida. Sorry, you can't have it both ways for in doing so you have it neither way. Bin Laden is the leader of Al-Qaida and yes, no matter how many times you try to say differently, that is him in the video. It looks like him and it sounds like him. You can keeping pointing at the green trees and telling us they are red, but we still see they are green.
0
sabiwabi
Yes, the guy in the video appears to have a beard that looks like Osama's, and they both wear the same thing on their head, and dress about the same. But that's where the similarities stop. Anyone with decent vision (and honesty!) will tell you that the guy in the video is NOT Osama.
As for who Al-Qaida is, I suspect there is a group of people doing things in the name of Al-Qaida, and this group is likely backed by (or part of) groups like the CIA and the Mossad. But this group only harms Muslims, they do not represent Muslims; despite what Zaphrod says (but I know where he's coming from...).
0
sabiwabi
Outhousejt,
Yes, and you remember how Madeleine Albright (Secretary of state) said that "it was worth it"!!!
0
outhousejt
There is no shred of evidence that bin Laden was behind 9/11. The only confession ever made by bin Laden was from that fake tape which the US Millitary just stumbled upon one day in Afghanistan. How convinient. The confession tape is fake. So was the man.
I lean towards bin Laden being an agent for CIA. He is the bogeyman they need to wage their wars and to establish their goal a New World Order where we human beings are micro chipped and where we live in a 24 hours surveillence society. Kind of like a society Orwell was warning us about.
0
kinniku
Thank you for that, however, I was not actually asking for another of your works of fiction. Your amazingly record of inaccuracies notwithstanding, the trees are still green and we still see they are green. You keep forgetting, we can see the video for ourselves, we don't have to take your word for it.
As noted above, you don't have a very good record for the accuracy of your claims. After all, in the past you also mistakenly claimed 'Al Jazeera was owned by Fox' and 'Ari Fleischer was a rabbi'.
“the enemy intentionally takes up positions in the midst of the Muslims for them to be human shields for him.”
Yes, like in markets, and street bazaars where there are absolutely no foreign soldiers in general. eyes rolling
0
kinniku
outhousejt,
I see you enjoy writing fiction as well.
0
outhousejt
sabiwabi
Yes. Its outrageous knowing the fact that among the people who starved to death the majority were children.
0
sabiwabi
Yes, but in this case, someone shows you an umbrella with leaves glued onto it. You see it as a green tree, I see it as an umbrella covered in leaves.
Indeed, I urge everyone to look at it, and also look at pictures or other videos of Osama. Please, everyone, have a look!!!
Yes, you've stated that countless times. Its quite encouraging to see that that is all you can come up with!
0
kinniku
outhousejt,
If Saddam Hussein had been able to follow the guidelines and learned to behave after the first gulf war, there would have been no need for 10 years of embargo and bombing. The man was completely unable to even abide by the no-fly zones set up after the war. Of course, when you are safe and it doesn't matter to you whether your countrymen suffer, then it is an easy path to take. Unfortunately for him, he took the path too far.
Moderator: Stay on topic please. Saddam Hussein is not relevant to this discussion.
0
outhousejt
kinniku.
Shifting the blame. It was not Saddam who killed the children. It was USA and United Nations. As for 9/11 and al Qaida. Things dont add up. The fiction that people take for granted is that Bush waged a war on terror. Bush already had plans to wage a war in Iraq and Afghanistan before 9/11. Taliban was even warning US about a possible attack. And so was the ISI.
bin Laden is not wanted for the attacks on 9/11 by FBI. bin Laden has denied he was behind 9/11. He praised the attacks but did not take responsibility for the attacks.
Here read for yourself.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/usamainterviewummat.htm
0
kinniku
Correct, because it is in fact a green tree.
Ummm...we have and sorry for you, but the majority of people know it to be him on the tapes (you seem to also conveniently forget that there are more than one video and voice recordings).
I am happy to see how proud you are of your 'mistakes' Cough! Cough! Unfortunately for you, there is a huge collection of your inaccuracies in the JT archives. However, whenever your inaccuracies are pointed out to you, you just move on to your next inaccuracy. Shame you can't learn from your mistakes.
0
sabiwabi
kinniku's response: "Correct, because it is in fact a green tree."
Coming back to "Al-Qaida", they take some guy with a chubby face, dress him up like Osama, glue a beard on him, and make a poor quality video of him. kinniku's response: "that is him in the video"
And this is based on what? Making stuff up AGAIN?
0
sabiwabi
Anyway, outhousejt is right; things just don't add up. The fact that it is not Osama on the video is a relatively minor point considering how the entire story falls apart completely when you look at it. But I'm sure in your mind it all makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
0
kinniku
outhousejt,
It is not a matter of shifting blame. Hussein had the option of using oil money for food and he didn't. He had the option of following the guidelines after the first gulf war and he didn't. Of course, this does not take away the US's responsibility for the situation in Iraq now. The US is the occupying power and does have responsibility for maintaining the well-being of the citizens of Iraq. However, before this invasion, it was Hussein's responsibility and he was not concerned.
As to Bin Ladin and Robert Fisk, you are being misleading. Please find me another site (how about the Independent's site) that shows this interview. I do not believe Mr. Fisk interviewed Bin Laden on September 28th, 2001. In fact, Mr. Fisk seems to agree with me that in fact it is Bin Laden on the video and audio tapes. He further seems to believe Bin Laden is behind the attacks.
http://www.counterpunch.org/rfisk2.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fisk/osama-bin-laden-is-it-him-almost-certainly-523777.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk1115.html
As you wrote, 'read for yourself'.
0
Zaphod
I wonder what 9-11 conspiracy theorists think about the first attack on the WTC. The one in 1993, when jihadists tried to blow it with a truck bomb in the basement. So Sheik Abdel Rahman is also on the CIA payroll? I bet the the good cleric would be surprised to hear that...
0
kinniku
Zaphod,
Why of course, everyone around the world just imagined that happened, too! "wink! wink!"
0
pvariel
Oh God!!! What a plain lie it is. So sad to hear such false statement.
0
outhousejt
This does not prove anything to why bin Laden was the master mind behind 9/11. I am just saying what FBI is saying. bin Laden is not wanted for the attacks on WTC because USA has no shred of evidence that it was him. No evidence. Nothing.
And to kinniku. How many people died from starvation before the embargo? How many died during the embargo? 0 people were dying of starvation prior to the embargo. And it is estimated that somewhere between 500,000 to 1.5 million people died during the embargo.
0
kinniku
Yes, because as I have already said, I do not believe you are showing me 'an umbrella'. I believe (as does the most of the rest of the world including Robert Fisk-thanks outhousejt!) that the man is in fact Bin Laden and your just repeating otherwise is not very convincing at all.
Umm...the world around us...the people around us...all over the world. In fact, Zawahri was with Bin Laden and even he does not make the claims you make that the man in the video and audio tapes is not Bin Laden.
In my mind and the minds of the people all over the world. Why not try asking the people around you right now?
0
outhousejt
kinniku.
Here is the video I am talking about. Another White House hit. This is not bin Laden.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41UAnkQARFs
0
kinniku
outhousejt,
re: the youtube video, could you post the name (and maybe the name of the member who posted it to make it easier to identify) of it for me? Cutting and pasting doesn't get me to it.
Fair enough. The situation in Iraq, although slightly improved, is still horrible and the country is nothing like it was before the invasion. The US is ultimately responsible for the welfare of the citizens of Iraq. It is really sad how horribly the post invasion has been handled. How they could not forsee what would occur in the vacuum of a Saddam-less Iraq is certainly a tragedy. It goes without saying the honorable citizens of Iraq deserve better.
0
kinniku
Nevermind, I got it to work. I disagree with you (as does Robert Fisk, BTW). That is Bin Laden. It is a bad quality video, but it certainly is him. For you, what is it that makes you think it isn't him?
0
skipthesong
Al-Qaida has taken credit for the destruction of the World Trade Center " and so many here disbelieve that. So, the CIA is supposedly capable of not only fooling Americans, but 90% of the world's Muslims too. I could never give that much faith in their talents, sorry, a smart spy agency is really only in the movies... So conspiracy theorists who believe AQ was not the perpetrator in the WTC attacks and are convinced that the CIA is really the one behind it, I gather you people, Sabi, feel kind of sorrow for AQ and firmly believe AQ does not harm innocents.
0
outhousejt
kinniku.
That is not bin Laden. It is obvious that it is not him. Here is an another one. This was the evidence which US put as evidence for invading Afghanistan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9gZdHGTxA&feature=related
The reason why I dont think it is bin Laden is because FBI and many others say that they do not have evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11. Instead US is chasing objectives together with NATO in Afghanistan which go way beyond bin Laden not to mention Iraq.
0
skipthesong
That is not bin Laden. It is obvious that it is not him." and just how do you know? because you read through a couple web sites? Have you ever seen him face to face?
What about all the praise he has received because of the WTC? I don't see you knocking that and some of your peers here that gave praise and understanding as to why AQ attacked the WTC and now they are saying its not him......
0
sabiwabi
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you talked to most people of the world.
You still don't get the analogy. But I give up. You didn't get a much simpler point that sarcasm123 and I were trying to make yesterday, you'll probably never get this one either.
I saw the video outhousejt provided, it ain't Osama!
By the way, has anyone ever wondered how this very rich man (Osama) could manage to pull off this amazing attack, and not be able to get his hands on a decent video camera?
0
sabiwabi
kinniku, But then again, maybe you are right. Maybe Osama did mastermind the whole thing. Maybe Osama got Silverstein (Netanyahu's buddy) to get his hand on the buildings just months before the attacks. And maybe its Osama that is blocking the investigation on the famous put options; you know, the ones that caused Bloomberg News to exclaim: “This would be the most extraordinary coincidence in the history of mankind if it was a coincidence. This could very well be insider trading at the worst, most horrific, most evil use you’ve ever seen in your entire life. It’s absolutely unprecedented.”
0
outhousejt
skipthesong
Look for yourself. It does not even look close to bin Laden. I have seen much better Elvis look a likes than that. It is not very good. Besides. Why would bin Laden tape himself together with friends and say. Hey man. You know what? I did 9/11. And then leave the tape behind and then the American millitary finds it in some house in Tora Bora. That does not add up. Speaking of 9/11. US airforce had the year before intercepted over 30 commercial planes which ahd drifted off cource. On 9/11 they were not able to intercept even 1. It is standard procedure to intercept planes flying off cource and you know the reason for why the US government did not intercept was? According to the US government, they couldnt track the location of the hijacked planes because the hijackers had turned the transponders off.
Who cares about the state of the art shield and the billion dollar the state of the att radar system. Pilots can basically invade undetected if they just turn off their transponder. The next time you want to invade some country undetected just turn your transponder off.
0
skipthesong
To the poster who wrote that OBL hasn't even been wanted by the FBI: What are you on? He has been on the FBI's 22 most wanted list since 96'. All they had to do was add yet another Muslim terrorist act...
and for those of you that agree with Zawahri, Read just from simple wiki:
"Like other Islamists and Islamic fundamentalists, Bin Laden believes that the restoration of Sharia law will set things right in the Muslim world, and that all other ideologies—"pan-Arabism, socialism, communism, democracy"—must be opposed.[27] He believes Afghanistan under the rule of Mullah Omar's Taliban was "the only Islamic country" in the Muslim world.[28] He has consistently dwelt on need for jihad to right what he believes are injustices against Muslims perpetrated by the United States and sometimes by other non-Muslim states,[29] the need to eliminate the state of Israel, and the necessity of forcing the US to withdraw from the Middle East. He has also called on Americans to "reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling, and usury," in a October 2002 letter.[30]
Probably the most controversial part of Bin Laden's ideology is that civilians, including women and children, can be killed in jihad.[31][32] Bin Laden is very anti-Jewish, and has delivered warnings against alleged Jewish conspiracies: "These Jews are masters of usury and leaders in treachery. They will leave you nothing, either in this world or the next."[33] Shia have been listed along with "Heretics, ... America and Israel," as the four principle "enemies of Islam" at ideology classes of Bin Laden's Al-Qaeda organization.[34]
As a Wahhabi, bin Laden opposes music on religious grounds,[35] and his attitude towards technology is mixed. He is interested in "earth-moving machinery and genetic engineering of plants, on the one hand," but rejecting "chilled water on the other."
He opposes communism and homosexuality and music too? Yet, the he garners left leaning people here on JT...
0
skipthesong
The only confession ever made by bin Laden was from that fake tape which the US Millitary " Please introduce a person in the military who can do that... if he is that good, I'll hire him.
0
outhousejt
Yes and if you read more carefully 9/11 is left out on the most wanted page on the FBIs web page.
0
kinniku
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were not able to have conversations with the people around you, watch various broadcasts from around the world, listen to various broadcasts from around the world. For if you were you would see that most of the world including the world's muslim population I agree that Bin Laden is the leader of Al-Qaida and that they did plan and carry out the attacks. Even outhousejt's good friend Robert Fisk agrees. Even Bin Laden's good friend, Zawahri agrees. You are in the tiny minority.
No...I understand the analogy. I am saying that if you were the one to be telling me something wasn't a green tree, I would be willing to make a tidy wager that it certainly was a green tree, ie: I do not believe you. Because of that, your analogy is moot.
As for yesterday's discussion, you agreed with me about whom they were fighting for. So, I don't know what you are on about.
Ahhh...I was waiting for the "this Jewish person did this" and "that Jewish person did that" part of your argument to come tumbling out. Of course, you did mistakenly claim (prevaricate is probably a much better word) that Ari Fleischer was a rabbi. So, there is no need to take your words to heart. (Back to the green tree!)
Sorry, Zawahri agrees with most of the world that his organization, with Bin Laden at the helm, did carry out those attacks and others.
0
sailwind
Exhaustive government and independent investigations have concluded otherwise, of course, and bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings. FBI officials say the wanted poster merely reflects the government's long-standing practice of relying on actual criminal charges in the notices.
"There's no mystery here," said FBI spokesman Rex Tomb. "They could add 9/11 on there, but they have not because they don't need to at this point. . . . There is a logic to it."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/27/AR2006082700687.html
Next???
0
kinniku
outhousejt,
Nice sesame street music on the second video. However, it certainly is Bin Laden. It looks like him and it sounds like him. The video quality is lousy, yes. But it is him.
As I said before, your friend Robert Fisk agrees with me. He is of the opinion that it is him, too.
0
skipthesong
"They could add 9/11 on there, but they have not because they don't need to at this point. . . . There is a logic to it."
Hey, neither was Hitler, nor Tojo who also attacked America.... and there was an FBI at that time too.
0
outhousejt
What kind of logic is that? You would have thought the most wanted man in the world who killed more Americans on American soil and then the FBI say they dont need to put 9/11 on bin Ladens most wanted page?
If they do not need to put bin Laden responsible for 9/11 then US does not need to be in Afghanistan or Iraq for that matter do they?
0
outhousejt
The reason why FBI does not put 9/11 on bin Ladens most wanted page is because US has no evidence that it was him carrying the attacks on 9/11. Its as simple as that.
I will paste a paragraph here.
When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”
Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.”
http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id267.html
What was this talk about wnting to root him out take him dead or alive and now 6 years after the attack. FBI still has not been able to come with any evidence that it was bin Laden.
Maybe that is because it was not bin Laden who did this.
0
kinniku
outhousejt,
You don't think this is enough? After all, I don't really think the FBI is expecting to capture Bin Laden from someone seeing the page anyway.
Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world. http://www.fbi.gov/mostwant.htm
0
kinniku
By the way according to the above FBI page, Bin Laden
So, if you happen to bump into him, be careful, okay?
0
SuperLib
"So, the CIA is supposedly capable of not only fooling Americans, but 90% of the world's Muslims too. I could never give that much faith in their talents, sorry, a smart spy agency is really only in the movies."
Well don't forget that you're speaking to sabiwabi, the man who insists Israel is actually firing rockets into their own country and framing Hamas for it. :)
0
sailwind
outhouse,
your link has 'credibility' problems. Your founder of the muckrakerreport sounds like a right wing kook.
His bio from your link.
Ed Haas is the Editor of the Muckraker Report. Founded in 2002 by Haas, the Muckraker Report has enjoyed a steady increase in readership over the years. Haas served in the United States Marine Corps from January 1983 to April 1994. He doesn't trust government, and has a hard time understanding people that do. He's keeping his powder dry and rifles clean in preparation for the next armed American revolution. He maintains that there are things worth dying for in life, and that government, political agendas, lobbyists, and corporations don't make that list. In his spare time he searches for his lost inalienable rights.
Think I'll stick with the washington post on this one as far as why they don't feel compelled to put 9-11 on Osama's mug. After all the guy was ALREADY on the most wanted list. Guess they could add 9-11 and call it a even MORE MOST WANTED than MOST WANTED Before catagory.
0
kinniku
As to outhousejt's piece. I think I prefer to read the actual Washington Post's article, thank you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/27/AR2006082700687.html?sub=AR
The notice says bin Laden is "a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world" but does not provide details.
The absence has also provided fodder for conspiracy theorists who think the U.S. government or another power was behind the Sept. 11 hijackings. From this point of view, the lack of a Sept. 11 reference suggests that the connection to al-Qaeda is uncertain.
Exhaustive government and independent investigations have concluded otherwise, of course, and bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders have proudly taken responsibility for the hijackings. FBI officials say the wanted poster merely reflects the government's long-standing practice of relying on actual criminal charges in the notices.
0
kinniku
Hi, sailwind! Good to see you on board the new JT!
BTW, if Zawahri were really interested in making sure innocents weren't killed, you would think he would suggest that there should be no more violence. In fact, he could go the Gandi route and call for non-violent protests. Somehow I don't think we will see or hear him do that.
0
SuperLib
"By the way, has anyone ever wondered how this very rich man (Osama) could manage to pull off this amazing attack, and not be able to get his hands on a decent video camera?"
I'm sure hundreds of governments and intelligence agencies who think OBL is real and behind the attacks are now slapping their foreheads and thinking, "Christ, why didn't we think of that!?!?!?!?!" heh
If I were Sabi I'd be more concerned about the CIA coming after him. I mean here he is telling the world the truth behind OBL. They were able to pull the wool over the eyes of nearly the entire world and all of that is now at risk since Sabiwabi got internet service.
French intelligence? Easy to fool. Canadian intelligence? Piece of cake. Saudi intelligence? Fooled overnight. The world media? Hook, line, and sinker. But not Sabi....the CIA might be able to fool the world, but not him. He's single-handedly done what hundreds of governments and trillions of dollars have been unable to do....uncover the truth behind OBL. And to think after doing all of that they're unable to silence him.
BUT....how can he be so sure? Perhaps the CIA planted the evidence that Sabi's using against them. Perhaps he's CIA. Think about it. He signs on to message boards and tell the world that the CIA is simply the greatest collection of human minds in the history of the planet. It sounds more like he has more respect for the CIA than most people alive today.
Remember, people: Who benefits?
0
outhousejt
You guys should stick to facts and not fantasy. bin Laden is not wanted for the attacks on New York 9/11. Remember. Was not the reason for the Afghanistan invasion to catch this man? Is this war not called The War On Terror?
September 11, 2001 attacks The Federal Bureau of Investigation has stated that evidence linking Al-Qaeda and bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable.[54] The Government of the United Kingdom reached the same conclusion regarding Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden's culpability for the September 11, 2001, attacks.[55] Bin Laden initially denied involvement in the September 11, 2001 attacks. On 16 September 2001, bin Laden read a statement later broadcast by Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel denying responsibility for the attack.[56]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OsamabinLaden
bin Laden denies that he attacked New York. USA and UK cannot come with evidence that it was bin Laden. So if we are to stick to facts and not fantasy. US waged war on Afghanistan because bin Laden bombed the US EMbassies in east Africa and not due to 9/11.
0
outhousejt
These are not minor technicalities. It puts things in a complete different perspective. bin Laden did not carry out 9/11.
0
sailwind
Hello kinniku, good to see you also made the transition to the new and improved JT!!!! Always enjoy your dogged determination to bring actual reality into any discussion that is in danger of being hijacked into conspiracy land.
I will respond to your post as this will be a first, I actually disagree with you for once.
I disagree if Zawahari wanted to make sure that innocents weren't killed, he could at least start by providing them with decent road maps in their cars that show routes away from markets, not the ones where they are located to park in when they blow themselves up to go to paradise. I'd settle for that first, before the Gandi route.
0
Sarge
"Ayman al-Zawahri"
A true scumbag who doesn't deserve to live. Who disagrees?
0
kinniku
outhousejt,
Wise advice. You should also consider taking this advice yourself as your quote is from History Commons Project. "Evidently The History Commons website is an experiment in open-content civic journalism. It provides a space for people to conduct grassroots-level investigations on any issue." In other words, it is a bunch of people just writing down whatever they'd like with no journalistic responsibility.
Absolutely, websites like the ones you seem to be using are big technicalities and they seem to put things in a completely fantasy-like perspective.
0
kinniku
Yes, of course. I was being facetious. Actually, great minds (modesty escapes me!) think alike. I wrote something very similar earlier on in the discussion. Zawahri and other Muslim leaders should be thinking of the welfare and health of their Muslim brethren and stop encouraging the kind of violence we are seeing in Iraq now. Instead of violence, they could write blogs or articles. It seems The History Commons website will let anyone publish whatever they'd like. So, that might be a good place of Zawahri to start.
0
outhousejt
If US cannot link 9/11 to bin Laden and al Qaida why is US fighting this war? ( and losing this war ) If we are to stick to facts 9/11 is irrelevant. This means US would have invaded Afghanistan no matter what, Therefore who benefited the most from the attacks? The people who were already planning to attack Afghanistan and Iraq. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld ofcource. 9/11 was the best thing which could have happened to them. Because now they could mobilize the American people in a war they had been dreaming about for years.
0
outhousejt
For those who believe in facts. Here is FBIs web page.
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
bin Laden is not wanted for the attacks on 9/11. The war against al Qaida is due to al Qaida bombing the US embassies in east Africa and not because of 9/11.
0
Sarge
"If US cannot link 9/11 to bin Laden and al Qaida"
As John McCain would say, I have some news - Al Qaida has claimed responsibility for 9/11.
"why is US fighting this war? ( and losing this war" )
If we're losing, who's winning? Al Qaida? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
0
kinniku
One last point, it is not uncommon for criminals to initially deny that they committed a crime only to later admit they did.
What is more telling is that Zawahri and other member of Al-Qaida do not deny it. In addition, Bin Laden repeated his claim of responsibility in 2004.
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kinniku
outhousejt,
I believe in facts, so why don't we put the whole quote from the FBI page here:
Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.
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outhousejt
Well if bin Laden is reposnible for the attacks on New York which he is not because US has no evidence linking him to 9/11 but IF it is Al Qaida. He sure is a free man is he not? Was not Bushs plan to smoke him out or was that want him dead or alive?
I find it very strange that FBI does not mention bin Laden on their web page.
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kinniku
Actually, the US has linked 9/11 to Bin Laden and Al-Qaida and have Al-Qaida. What the US hasn't done is indicted them for it.
As far as Afghanistan was concerned, the Taliban were harboring Bin Laden before 9-11 and refused to hand him over to the US even with the indictments. Over 200 people dead by the hands of Al-Qaida and in addition heavy suspicion of involvement (which has now been admitted to by Bin Laden and Al-Qaida) in 9/11...certainly seem like reasons enough to overthrow the Taliban.
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kinniku
outhousejt,
The FBI does mention Bin Laden on the webpage.
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kinniku
Also from the FBI's website on which Zawahri and Bin Laden are among the most wanted terrorists:
The alleged terrorists on this list have been indicted by sitting Federal Grand Juries in various jurisdictions in the United States for the crimes reflected on their wanted posters. Evidence was gathered and presented to the Grand Juries, which led to their being charged. The indictments currently listed on the posters allow them to be arrested and brought to justice. Future indictments may be handed down as various investigations proceed in connection to other terrorist incidents, for example, the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.
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Sarge
"I find it very strange that FBI does not mention bin Laden on their webpage"
Newsflash for outhouse:
www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm
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outhousejt
Where does it say 9/11 Sarge? Please point that out to me.
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Sarge
outhouse - For cryin' out loud, Binny crowed about the Twin Towers falling, saying it was better than his wildest dreams. Look it up.
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outhousejt
So where does it say 9/11 again Sarge?
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Sarge
Look it up, outhouse. Anyway, you said, and I quote, "I find it very strange that bin Laden does not mention bin Laden on their webpage," and I gave you a link to prove you wrong.
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SuperLib
"Bin Laden repeated his claim of responsibility in 2004."
Come on, kinniku. You're letting a confession and mounds of common sense get in the way of a very well thought out conspiracy theory.
Shame on you.
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ca1ic0cat
At this point what bin LAden did is rather moot. What is going on is that al Quaida is killing innocents, even Z says so:
“If there is any innocent who was killed in the Mujahideen’s operations, then it was either an unintentional error or out of necessity,” Zawahri added.
So al Quaida does kill innocents, but it's "necessary." If that's not a perverted sense of moral responsibility I don't know what is.
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frontandcentre
All this proves that Zawahiri is simply another duplicitous politician - with rather more honesty about the tactics that he advocates than some. After all, when no-one's innocent, then there are no innocent casualties, are there?
And yes, I will be cheering when they capture or kill this bloodthirsty, deluded, arrogant and evil man. It won't be because of America's failed tactics if they do, though
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sabiwabi
Kinniku, by bringing up the Ari Fleischer thing in response to the above (which I had posted), you’re only admitting that you can’t counter it.
So are you saying Silverstein did not get his hands on the building complex just months before the attacks? Are you saying Bloomberg News did not make that claim? Why do you always react when I mention someone who happens to be Jewish?
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sabiwabi
And I guess it is also Osama that is blocking public access to the many confiscated videos showing an object hitting the Pentagon! And it must also be Osama who told Bush’s security to keep Bush sitting in that school after the second plane hit, although it was public knowledge that he was there, thus making him (and the kids) an easy target!
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kinniku
How do you know what the videos show if you they have been blocked?
Wow! I wasn't aware that any planes were heading for Florida that day. You sure are a fountain of knowledge! (Not!)
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sabiwabi
How did they know the “bad guys” had only planned to attack with planes? They must have known for sure nothing was going to happen at that school because…. Certainly, if a surprise terrorist attack happened, they would have quickly hidden the president, not leave him in a classroom where everyone expected him to be.
You seem so well informed, and you go through much trouble to get info. But you still appear to believe the official story, all of it. You’re exposing yourself as one of “them”, your making too obvious. At least other posters who share your views could be seen as simply ignorant.
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kinniku
Yes, buildings being bought and sold is very rare and strange (eyes rolling).
Oops! Guess it is time for you to prove your mistaken post again. Please point out a criminal I have defended. In addition, please point out a criminal I have defend just because they are Jewish. If you cannot one can only assume you enjoy misleading people.
Really, can you provide any precedence for your opinion? In the bombing attack on the World Trade Center in the early 90's is that what they did? How about Oklahoma?
I assume you mean one of the good guys, but just in case, what do you mean by "them"?
That's not very polite.
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outhousejt
The video I showed previously is agreed to be fake and the whole story surrounding the viedo tape. The sooner people admit this the better they will look. The video is just as outrageous as how the US government found a will and a Koran and Mohammed Atta's passport among the debris of WTC. The US government wanted us to believe that the so-called super fire which reached an inferno and made the steel frame so hot that it melted the steel and made the WTC crumble. But the passport was found in perfect shape among the debris. And who would bring their will to an airplane knowing that the airplane would blow up? Then an another building which was not hit by an airplane collapses like a stack of cards. Then the hole in the Pentagon. Where is the airplane? One of the most secured buildings on this planet surely can come with some kind of evidence. The airplane took a sharp 270 degree turn on its way to the Pentagon and knocked a couple of light poles from the high way and flew right in without a single scatrch on the lawn. The plane was flown by someone who had never flown a commercial jet before. He must have been quite a pilot. Pilots who have been flying for decades say they could never pull a stunt like that even after years of practice but this guy who could barely fly a cecna must have had special powers.
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kinniku
Agreed by whom?
Again we have that problem with facts, or lack of them it seems. Why is it that you do not feel the need to check this type of information before rushing to your judgement? Atta's Koran and his suicide letter were among the things found in a rental car Atta rented and left parked in Boston.
He didn't. See above.
I will finish here by asking why is it some people try to back up their accusations with things that easily find to be untrue? Shouldn't we first think about what we write before we write it?
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kinniku
BTW, yes I am aware Atta's passport was found blocks away from the crash site. However, based on what you and sabiwabi provide as the basis for your claims, I find it considerably easier to believe the passport was found where people say it was rather than your claims.
It should not be neccesary to bend the truth to "prove" your claims. They should be able to stand up to the strong light of scrutiny. Neither yours not sabiwabi's do that.
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outhousejt
Hello kinniku. Hope you are doing OK on this Friday.
Politicians, scientists, millitary leaders, countries. I wonder who still thinks it is real apart from the Bush administration. It does not look like bin Laden at all. The only resemblence is that they both look like they have Middle Eastern features but the bone structure, the facial features is not even close.
OK. I must have got the facts here mixed up. Thanks for clarifying. Thats the only fact I have been wrong on and I admit a mistake.
This is taken straight out of a fairy tale. The passport survived the impact the inferno and was thrown 100s of meters away and found in perfect shape.
According to Bush. He got the news that a plane had crashed when he was in the hall way waiting to go into the class room. He has previously said that he was watching TV in the hall way and saw the first plane crash then he went into the class room.
I wonder how he could have seen the first plane crash because as far as I know that was not televised. And if he saw the first plane crash then why did he go into the class room to read My Pet Goat? Then after the 2nd plane crashed he still kept reading My Pet Goat.
Over to you.
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kinniku
Good evening, outhousejt.
I hope you are enjoying the increasingly warm weather!
Sorry to say that is not very specific. Could you provide a couple of names for each?
Well, quite frankly, I don't think you or anyone can say that such an occurance is impossible. Just because it is a freak occurance does not automatically make it impossible, right?
I don't have time right now to respond to your Bush comments. However, I would ask if you have actually check if Bush said he saw the first plane on TV and if he meant the first plane and not the second (in other words seeing a tape of a broadcast of the second plane). Personally, I never remember hearing that he said that.
Anyway, have a good night!
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sabiwabi
Right, but when you have so many "freak occurances" (too many to list here, there are many more to add to the ones I and Outhousejt listed) supporting our views and the only thing that supports the official side is the fake video and a "fireproof" passport, well you've got to be completely clued out or dishonest to say that the official story is correct.
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SuperLib
May I ask to see your proof, Sabi?
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outhousejt
Hello again. kinniku. Having a couple of beers after a long hard week so I am cooking. Anyhow...
I can give you links. And you can see the pictures of the various bin Ladens. Spot the bin Laden?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUiNiB2yVCQ
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1708091.stm
http://www.welfarestate.com/binladen/surprise/
I can also be very sincere and say to you. I do not have any person who says the video is fake but I do have politicians, prime ministers, millitary leaders including Americans questioning 9/11. Here is a link.
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/
That video is fake. You can't fake videos Bush. Corruption is impossible.
So you do believe that Mohammed Atta's passport survived the impact and the inferno and was found in perfect shape a couple of blocks from WTC? You also believe bin Laden left a very low quality video tape of himself boasting about 9/11 up in the hills in a house in Bora Bora when Americans were looking for him? If he left the low quality video tape why do you think he did that? Was it on purpose or because he was in a rush?
Also.. According to US intelligence bin Laden is left handed so why is bin Laden using his right hand to write his memo? Weird. Maybe he can write with both hands. A secret weapon the US intelligence was not aware of.
Enjoy your weekend.
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kinniku
Good morning, outhousejt!
First, I would like to say I respect the fact you are willing to admit mistakes in your posts. It is a pleasure to debate with you.
Now as to some of your points:
I did check on your Bush quote about seeing the first plane on television. As I wrote earlier, I didn't remember him saying that. However, I did check the Whitehouse website and found the press dated December 4th, 2001. Keep in mind, this is almost 3 months after the attacks.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.html
Q One thing, Mr. President, is that you have no idea how much
you've done for this country. And another thing is that, how did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack? (Applause.)
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Jordan. Well, Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident.
Now, if this were the only time President Bush made a mistake, that be one thing, but he and other politicians constantly make gaffes. Witness Hillary Clinton remembering a hail of bullets in Bosnia, for example.
As fare as Atta's passport is concerned. Certainly you and I have seen much more miraculous things in the news before. For example, people falling from very great heights and not being injured, or being injured only slightly, or people who have huge cranes fall over on and survive when nature tells us they shouldn't have.
"You also believe bin Laden left a very low quality video tape of himself boasting about 9/11 up in the hills in a house in Bora Bora
when Americans were looking for him?"
Why not, he also has left other videos and audio as well and the US is still looking for him.
Well, as you and I both know, US intelligence does not always get everything perfectly. Maybe he can write with both hands or maybe the intelligence service got that part wrong. It certainly would not be the first time.
Have a great day!
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redacted
Zawahri is merely stating for his dwindling Muslim audience what many fundamentalists believe: Anyone who is not Muslim is not innocent. Killing infidels is akin to a sacrament in his version of Islam.
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Zaphod
Zawahris muslim audience is "dwindling"? With the growing number of jihadist attacks around the world, I very much doubt that.
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DanManjt
Al-Qaida's Zawahri says his organization doesn't kill innocents
That's right. They're not terrorists.
They're agrarian reformers.
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