Al-Sadr says threat of all-out war applies only to U.S.-led forces
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0
smithinjapan
In case anyone didn't quite get it... I was mocking the person I quoted above; I know how so many of the very few war supporters on this board love to misread ANYTHING they can as support for their lost cause.
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redacted
Heh.
With their hedging ("But, if civil war or uprising doesn't happen...") and now their backpedalling and tortured retrofitting the anti-liberation crowd are sounding like defeated and humbled Muqtadas...
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redacted
Even better than American victory - -
"April 25, 2008
"Iraqi forces see victory in Basra
"Iraqi soldiers are standing proud in Basra one month after launching a surprise offensive to wipe out murderous gangs of Shia militants that had been allowed to flourish under Britain’s watch."
[...]
"Much of the bomb material is thought to have come from Iran, a charge that the Iranian Government has repeatedly rejected. Lt-Gen Furaiji keeps a small collection of Iranian-made mortars in his office at the Shat al-Arab hotel, which sits on the bank of the Shat al-Arab waterway. He said: “Thanks to the Iranians for handing over all these weapons to us.”
http://timesonline.typepad.com/insideiraqweblog/2008/04/iraqi-forces-se.html
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skipthesong
I really hope that when the US was accusing Iran of helping these Shiia militias, and many posters were saying that it wasn't true, I do hope that they are right...
If they are wrong, this is going to be one hell of a fight.
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Zaphod
Clever move by Al-Sadr and his Iranian sponsors. The US are in a real pickle here, I just wish so much that one of the 3 prez. candidates would start acknowledging the truth.
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rjd_jr
Bet there's more to Redacted's post than what they are reporting. It's more likely, they launched a suprise offensive with the backing of tens of thousands of U.S. troops, which ocurred only after several hundred tons of "laser guided" munitions were surgically dropped on 'tangoes.'
Even if you want to believe that Iraqi's are kicking booty in places like Basra, then heck, even more reason to get the heck out of Iraq. Wouldn't common sense dictate to you that if these Iraqi's are doing so hot, then we could start to get the troops out of that place? No? Oh, I see, "more time and training" is needed to ensure proper training and mentoring. Wow, so it takes what, 5 plus years to train the Iraqi military on the most basics of tactics, when it takes an Army infantry soldier 14 weeks from recruit to being assigned to his unit? Beautiful.
Get the U.S. out of there NOW. There is absolutely no sense in risking American and coalition lives for the sake of hubris and ignorance. Let the Iraqi's fight for what's there, at the current rate the war supporters would have us in Iraq for decades and decades.
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skipthesong
5 plus years to train the Iraqi military on the most basics of tactics, when it takes an Army infantry soldier 14 weeks from recruit to being assigned to his unit" I believe its less than that.
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Zaphod
rjd jr:
> " Get the U.S. out of there NOW. There is absolutely no sense in risking American and coalition lives for the sake of hubris and ignorance. "
I agree, but please be honest about what happens next. I find the pure idiocy of Obama and Hillary suggesting that if the US withdraws peace will break out offensive.
Withdraw, but be willing to watch the bloodbath that enfolds as the Shiite militians take over, Al-Quaida moves in to support the Sunnis, and the Kurds and Christians get brutalized by both.
Don´t sit there and demand withdrawal without consequences. That is retarded.
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SushiSake3
But Zaphod - you/we also have to look at the consequences of U.S. forces staying in Iraq for potentially decades.
At $12-15 billion a month.
This is creating a serious drain on U.S. treasury finances, and when the sh*t hits the fan - as it is now in the U.S. economy, where is the money to prop it all up?
A: Being spent on munitions and soldier 8,000 miles away in Iraq, where there is no prospect of gaining a decent return on that money.
I have said it before adn it's worth saying again - priorities.
U.S., Japanese and Chinese (primarily) taxpayers' money is being spent on Iraq and for Iraqis - not on Americans in America.
Strangely, the few remaining individuals who still support this war (redacted, Sarge, Superlib, etc.) don't seem to care about this - in fact, they seem more than hapy to watch their taxes, their future Social Security, money that could go towards helping and assisting them, their families, kids education, healthcare, trainng, rebuilding, etc. is being burnt up in Iraq.
That is not patriotic - that is STUPID.
Sure there will be chaos when U.S. force pull out.
Again, what is the alternative? A U.S. presence for decades, creating a continual financial drag on the U.S. economy, very likely dragging down the entire global economy - as it already is?
That's not theory - that's real.
Bush's latest economic stimulus package could have been a hell of a lot bigger were he not siphoning off $3 billion a week for Iraq.
And, when that chaos does break out, let's all remember that the war supporters - especially the ones on this board - really do not give a rat's a*se about the welfare of Iraqis, and they never did.
They only pretend to do so now because every other ratioale the have ever had for continuing to support this failed war has evaporated.
They are clutching at straws and they know it, but none of them have the guts to admit it, which is exactly what we DON'T need at the moment.
We need people who do have the guts and the blunt honesty to stand up and say 'Look, I made the wrong decision, let's see how we can solve this problem."
But no, the war supporters continue to blindly support this war 1/ because they have staked their reputation and pride on it and are too gutless to admit they got it wrong, and 2/ They continue to blindly believe Bush & Co., near totally ignoring or twisting the facts about the realty on the ground to justify their bankrupt beliefs.
Yes, there will be bloodshed.
Call e callous, but I see it as a necessary 'reshuffling.' The Brits carving u the country early last century were a major part of the problem, and America occupying hte coutry isn't helping.
Let's look at the facts - U.S. soldiers know they can't keep the warring tribes apart, in fact the are builing walled communities to keep them apart.
All the while, U.S. soldiers coninue to die.
I ask - for what?
Iraq is an Iraqi problem, but the longer America stays, the more of a problem it will become for America, which will simply justify a prolonged stay, more money and lives burnt up...again - for what?
It's time to get out now - to the borders at a minimum to keep this from spilling out of Iraq - and leave this up to the Iraqis to sort out their own problems.
Staying there is senseless.
BTW, I'm confident someone is going to claim I am threatening to "snatch defet from the jaws of victory."
If what we have now is "victory" - or even close to it - then I'm Mickey Mouse.
Muqtada al-Sadr has al the time in the world he and his men live there.
America - and the world - doesn't have that luxury.
.
0
rjd_jr
Zaphod, SushiSake pretty much nailed it. After 5 bloody years we finally hear the likes of nouri pleading with Arab states for assistance. You know why the Iraqis, especially the politicians, have been dragging their arses, going on extended vacations and having fun in the green zone instead of working to better their country? Because they have been spoiled, and think that the Americans are there to stay for decades in Iraq. Basically, there's no sense of urgency to these people. Same with these Iraqi soldiers who seem to constantly desert and mutiny, and whose stellar performances are the rarity than the norm. They just have no sense of urgency.
I bet you all that if the U.S. were to start withdrawing and leaving, these politicans would realize the gravity of the situation and get with the darned program after 5 years of grab arsing. No American or coalition lives are worth sacrificing anymore to this failed policy or a corrupt Iraqi administration.
I'm tired of my tax money being wasted, American lives being wasted.
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Zaphod
SS, rjd,
Did you two read what I wrote? I agree, the US should withdraw. All I am saying is be honest about the consequences. There is no free lunch.
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skipthesong
Sushi: I really liked you post. Pretty much dead on.
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SushiSake3
rjd jr - "You know why the Iraqis, especially the politicians, have been dragging their arses, going on extended vacations and having fun in the green zone instead of working to better their country? Because they have been spoiled, and think that the Americans are there to stay for decades in Iraq. Basically, there's no sense of urgency to these people."
Good call. That's pretty much the crux of the problem.
I would go as far as to say America is babysitting the Iraqi govt and the Iraqi parliament members have absolutely no incentive at all to get out of the cot.
Meanwhile, Americans die for nothing.
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Zaphod
SushiSake:
Repeating it does not make true. How decides what is "good for their country"? The different factions have very different ideas about that, so they will not start working together when the US leaves. They will decide with civil war, and it won`t be pretty.
I agree that the US can not continue to babysit this, but I find intellectually dishonest to claim that that peace will break out when the US leaves.
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SushiSake3
Zaphod - that wasn't my quote.
"but I find intellectually dishonest to claim that that peace will break out when the US leaves."
I agree with you - it's not going to.
But staying there will exact a greater price on not just Iraq, but the entire world if the U.S. economy start tanking.
Which it is.
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Zaphod
SS:
If I was to decide: LEAVE! Just be honest about the consequences. Obama has already declared he will pull out, but move back in once Al-Quaida appears in Iraq. In other words: The most ridiculous and costly military U-turn EVER. Talk about insanity!
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GeorgeRouault
The insanity is invading a country on the other side of the world creating an orgie of blood based on a pack of lies.
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jambon
Backpedaling. Rice was right.
Time to mop up. Bring. It. On.
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Sarge
"The US should withdraw"
Yes, after all we've sacrificed, we need to hand over Iraq to the wackos.
"Obama has already declared he will pull out ( U.S. troops ) but move ( them ) back in once Al-Qaida appears in Iraq"
McCain has tried telling Obama that Al-Qaida is already in Iraq, going as far as to say they're called "Al-Qaida-in-Iraq." But all Obama could muster was a lame retort saying that Al-Qaida wasn't in Iraq until "George Bush invaded." As if Iraq was some kind of paradise under Saddam LOL...
0
Madverts
jambon, they brought it on long ago. Denial will not change this.
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SushiSake3
Sarge, you are wrong on so many counts, there's really no point expanding on them.
"Yes, after all we've sacrificed, we need to hand over Iraq to the wackos."
By the way, if you support this war, you are kissing goodbye to your Social Security.
That's REAL funny and a hilarious own goal LOL!
:-)
Moderator: Readers, please keep the discussion civil.
0
Sarge
Sushi, you are so wrong on so many counts, including this one. By the way, if you are against keeping Iraq out of the hands of terrorists, you are for handing Iraq to the terrorists. It's that simple. Sure you're going to keep your current position?
0
SushiSake3
But Sarge, your support for the Failed Iraq War is costing your country upwards of $12-15 billon a month.
Exactly how long do you think this can continue, considering your country is already deeply in debt?
Wouldn't you rather have $12-15 billon a month spent on YOUR own people and YOUR family?
It doesn't seem that way at all.
If you support this war, you don't support the welfare of ordinary Americans, including your own family.
0
jambon
Mookie is all confused:
Iraq's Sadr Tells Fighters to Observe Truce
By REUTERS
Published: April 25, 2008
And upset:
Top Sunni Bloc Is Set to Rejoin Cabinet in Iraq
By JAMES GLANZ
Published: April 25, 2008
Iraqi Army Takes Last Basra Areas From Sadr Force
By JAMES GLANZ and ALISSA J. RUBIN
Published: April 20, 2008
Three NYT pieces that missed the pages of the MSM and JT.
0
Sarge
Sushi - If you're against this war, you're for handing Iraq to the terrorists. And that would make $12-15 bil a month look like peanuts.
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Zaphod
Sarge:
Define "terrorists".
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Zaphod
GeorgeRaoult:
Can we do without the idiot soundbytes? GWB was not invading peacefull little Iraq on a fine day out of the blue for a "pack of lies". There was a long history building up to the invasion, and yes, miscalculations were made.
But brainless slogans like this are not helpful.
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jambon
The Left has always had this difficulty with evil. Something to do with a lack of responsibility, to be sure.
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Sarge
Terrorists: Scumbags who strike terror into people's hearts and torture and kill without hesitation or remorse. Right now there's a bunch of them attempting to make Iraq a base of operations.
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Zaphod
Sarge:
Those are the people who run Saudi Arabia too, and that is supposed to be our ally. Your point?
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jambon
About that "civil war" ...
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Sarge
DXXJP - You're confusing the terrorists with the people who are most responsible for keeping the terrorists from ruining the conditions which enable you to work.
By the way, what's up with the extra X these days?
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GeorgeRouault
Some people advocate atrocities such as killing complete strangers yet some people ask others to be civil.
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Zaphod
GeorgeRoualt
Yes, muslim clerics are routinely calling for killing complete strangers, for "crimes" as trivial as writing a book, drawing a cartoon, converting to another religion, or simply being a homosexual or being Jewish.
That is why the Iraq war was lost the moment when Bush stood by while the Shiite government wrote the islamic principles into the new constitution. Guess I have to agree with you there.
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adaydream
Define "terrorists".
Someone who through the use of actions or threats infringes on the civil rights and lives of others.
Someone who wants something, either tangible or intangible and is willing to take it with intimidation or actual acts of aggression.
Someone who would destroy a way of life just to force their way of life on others.
Someone who would kill to get their way. Justly or not.
Sarge, sounds like george bush to me.
0
Betzee
Recently I attended a bring the troops home event at which Ron Kovic was a guest. In case anyone doesn't know who he is, his life's story was portrayed in the movie Born on the Fourth of July starring Tom Cruise. Earlier this year he marked his 40th anniversary in a wheel chair. Far from being bitter about his plight, he spoke movingly about how grateful he was to have had these years when some he served with didn't.
He became an activist and the cause which occupies him now is bringing the troops home. It is particularly senseless when we are both fighting Sadr and bolstering the government he serves in (through his party).
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Zaphod
Betzee:
It is great to bring the troops home, just be honest about what happens next. To expect that the withdrawal of the US troops will lead to peace is every bit as ridiculous as Bush'es idea that the removal of Hussein would lead to democracy.
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dano2002
this guy is grasping at his last straws of power. he basically controls his slum with words against the big bad US instead of creating jobs. honestly, wouldn't this fool be better off aligning with the US and creating jobs for the thousands of unemployed kids holding ak47s?
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dano2002
One more comment please. for those who claim the war a failure let's not forget who controlled the slum area that has the problem. secondly, please provide us what you would have done in 2003. i am assuming that you would have not invaded and thereby saddam is still in power. so, this is OK? i would be interested to know how your plan of doing nothing would have worked. that is basically your plan right? in 2003, the us should have done nothing and the world would be better off now? but since all of you actually had or have no ideas except bash the US i am assuming there will be no responses.
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