American soldier guns down 5 fellow troops at U.S. military base in Iraq
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0
Den Den
Look at the statistics of violent acts caused back home by returned Iraq/Afghanistan vets. Hundreds of murders...it's a big bubbling pot.
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adaydream
Those who believe that these troops shouldn't get some serious mental health treatment are just fooling themselves and allowing more and more people harmed.
It's only because of the extent of this action and where it's at will it get the media attention that it needs. < :-)
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likeitis
Until we get more information it is silly to conjecture on the soldier's mental health or stress level. There are a million reasons why this might have happened, from revenge, to vigilianteeism, to just plain being a nut before he ever even saw a recruiter.
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rogerbentham
rambo!
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hoserfella
likeitis- you'd ask for more info on a Death Vally weather report. The guy shot dead 5 people at a counseling center for soldiers. Y'now what? Chances are pretty good his mental health and /or stress levels are not A-OK!
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timorborder
Just a simple clarification, to "frag" somebody during the Vietnam era actually meant to cause injury to incompetent or overly aggressive (gungho) superiors in order that the individuals serving under them would not have to go on operations with them (and risk their own lives). In the early days of the Vietnam war, "fragging" was usually done via a rudimentary booby trap device that was designed to maim rather than kill (knocking off a couple of fingers would suffice). Later in the war, however, (fragmentation) grenades were used to kill superiors. This was often done through a grenade thrown into a tent, or via a grenade with the pin removed (but the spool still intact).
In terms of this incident, shxt happens. Combat and its after effects impact people in different ways. There are some people who remain cold and detached throughout the whole experience of combat, while others cannot handle it and have serious trouble in readjusting to their environment afterwards.
Just out of interest, given the size of this military base, I would assume that areas inside the base are considered secure. Given this assumption, what are the SOPs regarding the carrying of loaded weapons. I would also question the logic of giving people suffering PTSD easy access to weapons. On what is written here, it seems somebody dropped the ball.
0
Altria
Friendly fire!
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societymike
DenDem....
wow... exagerate much?
timorborder yeah, anyone with mental health issues instantly gets weapons taken away. besides that, weapons are secured while on the base anyway
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likeitis
hoserfella: likeitis- you'd ask for more info on a Death Vally weather report. The guy shot dead 5 people at a counseling center for soldiers. Y'now what? Chances are pretty good his mental health and /or stress levels are not A-OK!
Wow! One day you say you cannot comment for lack of info, and today "chances are pretty good" is A-OK with you!
Which is it?
0
smithinjapan
Sad state of affairs, all around. They should never have been there to begin with.
0
LoveUSA
it is hard to stay sane in times of war sadly this happens because war is cruel
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hoserfella
likeitis- Its called "common sense".
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zurcronium
Maybe this guy was nutty going in, like stephen green who raped a child and then killed her entire family, or perhaps the war made him nutty.
And yes todays US military is quagmire of crime and immorality. Here are some facts to ponder . . .
A 2007 FBI report on gang activity in the U.S. military found that members of nearly every major street gang were present in the ranks of the U.S. armed forces. Service members associated with Bloods, Crips, Black Disciples, Gangster Disciples, Hells Angels, Latin Kings, The 18th Street Gang, Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Nortenos, Surenos, Vice Lords and various white supremacist groups were documented serving at U.S. military installations at home and abroad. The report said the Army had the highest count of gang members in its ranks, partly because it is the largest branch and partly because of relatively lax recruitment requirements. Sexual assault cases in the military have risen significantly in recent years as well. A Pentagon report released earlier this year said 165 cases of sexual assault were reported among troops serving in Afghanistan and Iraq in 2008, up 26% from the year before. The overall incident rate was up 8% among U.S. service members serving worldwide, with 2,923 cases of sexual assault reported. Suicides are skyrocketing as well among the GIs, sometimes these damaged guys just take themselves out.
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adaydream
I remember a Staff Sargent who pissed off his troops and they rigged his rack with a fragmentation grenade. Wasn't a pretty sight. A friend worked in the JAG office and showed me the pics. GAWD..it was ugly. < :-)
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zurcronium
adaydream,
terrible thing you mention but in the case of a sarge that goes on and on repeating the same things and never makes any sense I can see that happening.
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timorborder
Picking up from my earlier thread, I don't think this is necassarily a case of fragging in terms of a soldier exacting punishment on a dangerously incompetent superior. Rather it seems to be the act of an unbalanced individual who just snapped and had easy access to a weapon.
Furthermore, with regard to fragging, I have only every heard of it occuring in the US military. Indeed, I only learnt of the term during my own military career while on exchange to the US Army many years ago. I remember a fellow officer telling me about it and me staring at the chap like he had just arrived from Mars. What about the other US services and other nation's armed forces? Does fragging also occur in the USN or the USAF? I would be interested to know about other people's experiences.
0
techall
@timorborder and societymike: Over 4 ands 1/2 yers in Iraq I was on more than 30 bases including Liberty. The entire time I was there standing orders were that soldiers MUST have their weapon and one clip of ammo where ever they are on base, even in the dining facilities. The only timethey wer not required was when the soldier was doing physical training (jogging or running)but still required in the fitness tooms and gyms. Soldiers not carrying their weapons were denied admittance into dining facilities if they did not have their weapons (I used to joke that the only two places on earth you can find yourself eating dinner across the table from a cute, 19 year old blond carrying a gun are Iraq and Texas). People request counciling for a verity of reasons and doesn't necessarily mean the person is unable to carry out his military duties. If the soldier is found to be unstable, he is put on medical and does not carry a weapon.
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Alphaape
zurcronium: Let us not forget that both parties are at fault for the border on the US that lets gang members (MS-13), Mexican Mafia, Nortenous, Surenos through. Also very liberal immigration inforcement has allowed them to stay. The rest of the gangs are bad news, and I am not going to say that it is all Bush's fault, since the crack epidemic from the 80's and 90's helped to make them grow.
But let me give you a few more facts. The area of Camp Liberty is pretty big. Probably about the size of Burbank, CA. True this is a sad event, but when you look at the amount of people that are there, and carrying weapons the incident rate is quite low than compared with a U.S. city with the corresponding size and population.
Having served 20 years in the USN, I can say I have seen some bad apples, but by and far, I have seen a lot more good apples than what you seem to indicate.
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adaydream
Before the soldiers at Camp Liberty received their weapons 100% of them went through several weeks of basic training, military disipline, rifle range, infantry training and any number of days, weeks, months or years of military training. This also included a certain amount of direct and/or indirect psychological weeding out based on the involvement of their drill sergants, troop handlers, squad leaders, fire team leaders and their bunky. Also, their weapons are controlled. Every weapon is accounted for, registered and tracked. Nobody is walking around with concealed weapons.
Cities with populations of this size have what amount of the above? No wonder they have uncontrolled carnage. A military base can't have that kind of crime rate and survive. < :-)
0
Noliving
I really wouldn't worry too much about what zurconium says, a lot of it is just hyperbole alphaape. For example suicides are not really "sky rocketing", when you look at how many US soldiers that have rotated through Iraq and Afghanistan and you look at the total number of suicides its less then 1% of US soldiers commit suicide. As for the gang members, it would be interesting if zucronium could show what the per capita was amongst the US military, for a force that is around 3 million it would be interesting if they were only able to prove that several hundred or thousand were gang members. Either way it isn't the problem zucronium is making it out to be.
Only a 165 sexual assualt cases, probably more due victims not reporting them, out of around 160k-200k forces is pretty low in my opinion.
Ya so what if more americans have been killed then 9/11? More americans were killed in ww2 than at pearl harbor. The war wasn't ever about having less casualties then OBL's attack.
0
dennis0bauer
Was the culprit a republican, where the victims Democrats? just asking
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Mittsu
It's all Bush's fault. 5 more casualties to add to all those wasted already.
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teleprompter
Fortunately for Americans our armed forces have much more adult opinions on the matter.
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smithinjapan
LostinNagoya: Thanks for your comment. Some on here won't bother to see or acknowledge it, but we all know that's THEIR problem.
teleprompter: "Fortunately for Americans our armed forces have much more adult opinions on the matter."
Like the suspect in this case? Clearly you're in the wrong. While I don't agree with the way Mittsu said what he/she said, he/she has a point. You, as usual, do not.
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Den Den
"A survey of public records by The New York Times found at least 121 U.S. veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing or were charged with one after returning home from duty...Jan 12 09."
0
Alphaape
DenDen: That number still falls far less than the murder rate of New Orleans for this year so far. Since you are into studies, check to see how many murders were committed in NO so far, and how many have been arrested. That should open your eyes a bit.
0
Madverts
Good point alpha - I always wonder what the US is doing invading other countries to install their way of life when they can't sort stop the killings back home....
That's one hell of a nasty conflict Mr Bush ignited over there, and a frighteningly un-scrupulous enemy. I'm not surprised the troops are going crazy.
0
Betzee
Adverts,
There's a woman in my office who reported a while back, "My uncle is a staff sargeant and he says they're now taking convicts!" I assumed she meant those with criminal records which would have disqualified them during peacetime when the military can be choosier. But perhaps she was right.....
0
Madverts
Criminals or not Betzee, there's no surprise they're going mad.
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sharky1
They need to look at the type of counseling they are providing for these guys. What they are doing now doesn't seem to be working.
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sailwind
A Nations Military is nothing more or less than a reflection of the mirror of the society it represents. Grasp that concept, as if some student in Virginia recently didn't also go postal.
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Alphaape
A long time ago I was a recruiter. We would try to get waivers for persons to enroll in the military. They normally amounted to waivers for such items as minor drug posessions, some petty thefts, and the general small stuff that many on the "liberal Left" in America say that we should overlook when people come out of our prisons becuase that is the whole purpose of prison/jail, to reform the person.
People who have committed major felonies have never been able to come in. As a matter of fact, if you are in the military, and you have earned a case of domestic abuse, you can't even be authorized to carry a weapon (that is how it is in the Navy).
So the comment of letting convicts in is misleading. No true hard core crminals are let in. And if so, once again, the military is taking a big step. After all, people who may have had some of the cases I mentioned are now finding it hard to find a job in the civilian sector. Why, becuase people don't want those types around. So much for the liberal mantra of reform. Makes one wonder, if we can't get over the fact that some young kid made a minor mistake and sold drugs, got caught, paid the price and now wants to reform himself; how can we say we can give all of the radical "flamethowers" and car bombers, or those who were captured in the act of battle, spent a few years at Gitmo and now they need to be let out since they no longer have the desire to kill us in the West.
I would rather take my chances on a "knucklehead" who sold a few drugs than a reformed enemey combatant.
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Taka313
Sharky,
And that is precisely what is happening. The Army (big Army) took the news that more Soldiers died of suicide in January of '09 than did in combat to heart, IMO.
They assessed that the situation was serious enough to involve the entire Dept. of the Army.
Anyone (excluding contractors) that works for the Dept. of the Army must complete a 3 phased suicide prevention course.
Phase 1 of the training was an interactive video that was extremely well made, in my opinion. Having sat through more military training lectures than any human being ever should, I would say this was, very well made. Perhaps, too well, in fact. We had some issues here on post with Soldiers having flash backs.
Phase 2 was also very informative (but not as good IMO) but dealt with a different stresser; that of the returning Warrior. Phase 3 hasn't commenced yet (at least where I work), however, the Army (my opinion here) has really handled the situation well.
I'm not a big fan of knee-jerk responses from the military to situations as I have endured many. However, this one left me very impressed.
Taka
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zurcronium
That may be true but the number of bad apples is skyrocketing due to rumsfeld lowering the gate to join the military, in order to feed the war machine in Iraq and elsewhere. Fact is that 1/3 of the US GIs have a criminal record, some coming in and some commiting crimes while in the service. These are pentagon numbers, it may be higher. I have posted this many times and always the apologists have no response.
You guys who have invested your lives in the military cannot see it for what it is today, a vast penal colony filled with gang members and other odd sorts. Sure their are a few noble folks, like the one GI at AbuGrahid who let on about the torture there, but he was one of what hundreds that did nothing or were busy taking pictures of the abuses if they were not torturing prisoners themselves. That says it all unfortunately.
So how is this fixed, a draft. So that all members of society are in the Army, not just the lowlifes and gang members. Obama may be able to pull it off. And if a few more senators sons or daughters end in the military there will be a lot fewer phony and failed invasions that bush to screw up. And a lot fewer senseless deaths of GIs and locals.
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zurcronium
the guy charged with murder was a criminal before he joined up in the service. Not sure if it was a felony or not but many with felonies on their records are let in the service. He was on his third tour in Iraq, that should be stopped by Obama. Hopefully Obama will care about the mental health of the GIs, for sure the bush people did not.
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Alphaape
zurcronium, I actually think some sort of draft would be good for the U.S. Military, since Obama says that we all have to make sacrifices. But, if it does happen, you will see the far left groups like the ACLU and others decry this and we will start having the burning draft cards again as we did in the 60's.
Why, probably because if we can't get the "flower of American youth" to do volunteer work in such places as Americorps (and if you did a little research, you will find that most of the lower workers in such programs as this and Job Corps come from lower income families, and have had criminal records) I doubt if they will feel obliged to serve the U.S. in the military, and heaven forbid go to war.
Obama is not going to care no more about the mental health of the GIs than GWB did. Sure he may say something, but those issues are normally handled by the professionals that the services have in place to deal with them.
Once again I ask, what are these types of people going to do when they get out. True the very serious felons should not be allowed to join the military or police forces, but if they can't get hired there, where in private industry will they work? Would you want a convicted felon working in a bank with all of your personal information avaialable to commit ID Theft? Or would you want them working in hospitals around vast amounts of drugs, even though they have been trained to work there? Or would you just have them to work in the agri-business picking crops so that we can stem the tide of illegals coming to America.
No doubt I do lean towards the right on some issues, but I just find it ironic that those on the left who decry our judical/penal system as not being "reformatory enough" will go about and say that the military is filled with nothing but excons and thugs.
I wonder what Obama's new Civilian Corps that he said needs to be just as strong as the military and police will be made of?
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teleprompter
zurcronium: "You guys who have invested your lives in the military cannot see it for what it is today, a vast penal colony filled with gang members and other odd sorts."
[...]
"So how is this fixed, a draft."
LOL. And you were undoubtedly on here in 04 trying to say Bush/Cheney were ready to reinstate the draft.
But I enjoy your posts - they basically cancel out your fellow 'liberals' here who say they are proud members of the US Armed Forces.
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