Amnesty accuses Israel of war crimes in Gaza
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Kapuna
said “disturbing questions” remain about why high-precision weapons like tank shells and air-delivered bombs and missiles “killed so many children and other civilians.” Maybe because they were human shields?
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teleprompter
Does anybody take AI seriously? - I mean, other than the slap-another-Free-Tibet-sticker-on-the-Volvo crowd?
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smithinjapan
Kapuna: That's always the excuse, isn't it? In some cases it happens to be true, in other cases it just seems the Israeli army is either not as precise as it claims to be (and it's carte blanche supporters are), or they just don't care. Israeli troops have in cases fully admitted the latter. And of course there's the fact that Israel will never let inspectors go in to investigate until they've cleaned things up. Lest we forget they hit aid trucks, schools, hospitals, and more, and couldn't prove there were enemy combatants in the area (and vehemently denied hitting such places until it was proven they did).
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northlondon
So you just go ahead anyway and fire high-precision shells and air delivered missiles at young children being used as human shields ? What a stupid excuse that is.
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northlondon
At long last I get to agree with every word that smithinjapan has said. Well said.
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sabiwabi
"Israeli forces killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians and destroyed thousands of Gaza Strip homes in attacks that amounted to war crimes,"
I'm glad Amnesty International has concluded the obvious. We all long ago understood that Israel has been committing war crimes after war crimes. This last war crime is nothing new for them. Unfortunately, we also realize that Israel will get away with it and continue to receive undeserved financial and military assistance from the west.
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smithinjapan
northlondon: "At long last I get to agree with every word that smithinjapan has said. Well said."
It has been a while, hasn't it? Glad you agree. Cheers.
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tkoind2
Israel has long practiced policies in Gaza and Palestine that have been blind to their impact upon civilians.
Teleprompter, many people take AI very seriously and their work has done a great deal to help oppressed people around the world. The fact that you had to ask that question should help define your clear lack of familiarity with the growing global issue of behavior contrary to the moral standards of warfare and the rising non-compliance with international standards on torture and imprisonment.
When combined with Israel's long standing apartheid like policies it is shocking that more of her leaders have not been called to account in the world courts.
If Israel wishes the world to see her position as the moral high ground, this kind of behavior is not productive to their cause. As a matter of fact Israel's policies have directly inflamed the danger of terror and of uprisings. And it is no wonder that Palestinians continue to fight against such repression.
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tkoind2
SmithinJapan, excellent post.
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nandakandamanda
The article is fairly balanced, but the headline is biased.
The headline should say that AI accuses both sides.
As it stands, the headline caters to the anti-Israel crowd, and at the same time gives fuel to the Israelis so that they can say, "Everyone is biased against us, so what's the point of cooperating?"
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skipthesong
Are many of you in support of this under the impression that Israel should do nothing when they feel threatened?
nandakandamanda: "Everyone is biased against us, so what's the point of cooperating?" that is a good question. If you lobbed rockets at me, regardless if you say or found them to be harmless, mean nothing to me when they are flying in the air. Are the Israelis supposed to just go about their business when those rockets are being fired and shrug them off as "harmless"? I know I wouldn't!
smith: your post is good, but I still think you do hold a bit of bias towards Israel. Is it because the Palestinians are poor and the Israelis affluent?
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kinniku
This is the crux of the article. Both (all?) sides need to be willing to work for peace for there to be any hope of peace at all.
I don't think any country would or should have to put up with it. However, Israel does have a moral responsibility to lessen the possibility of civilians being killed or injured, as do Hamas. Neither side did well in this regard.
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skipthesong
I don't think any country would or should have to put up with it. However, Israel does have a moral responsibility to lessen the possibility of civilians being killed or injured, as do Hamas. Neither side did well in this regard." Ok, I'll agree to that.
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teleprompter
"Palestinians" misery is largely self-inflicted and they seem to enjoy it as far as I can tell.
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dragonczar
Dont worry...US will veto any kinds of anti-israel sentiment no matter whose administration was in charge
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sharky1
I accuse Amnesty of anti-semitism.
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SuperLib
Of course not. Once people start to see how successful children can be as human shields then hopefully we can see the practice expanded to conflicts all over the world. As it stands nor far too few children are being put in harms way. The world can learn a lot from the Palestinians.
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TumbleDry
sharky1: any critics toward Israel are considered anti-semitic.
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TumbleDry
teleprompter: you enjoy it too. it fuels your rants.
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sabiwabi
Are the Palestinians supposed to just go about their business as they see more and more land stolen, olive trees uprooted, civilians beaten up and murdered, being imprisoned under terrible conditions without essential supplies? I know I wouldn't!
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SuperLib
You don't have to deny that crimes have been committed against Palestinians to deny the way they choose to respond. I know I'd be angry if those things happened to me but I also know I wouldn't respond by putting a bomb on a 16-year old kid and telling him to go and blow up a hospital.
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sabiwabi
And neither would the Palestinians, where do you get these ideas.
So how many decades of complete hell would you endure before firing a rocket?
That is indeed very much on topic. But I have a feeling sharky was joking (I hope!), his/her way of outlining how anyone who criticizes the "state" of Israel is branded anti-semitic or biased.
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Sarge
"Israeli forces killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians"
These wouldn't be the civilians shouting "Death to Israel," would they?
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Den Den
So we all know that Israel commits war crimes, but is our islamophobia greater than our morals? Now there is evidence, there should be a reaction.
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adaydream
Children in schools and UN warehouse safe havens are not children used as human shields. These places where children were trying to hide from the constant bombing during the Israeli assault were all marked as safe havens and were all identified as places where children and innocents could hide for protection.
Israel knew where these safe havens were and intentially bombed where children and innocents were hiding. Israel intentually murdered children. < :-)
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zurcronium
Its clear that war crimes were committed. The fact that Israel will not cooperate with the investigation shows they know what they did was criminal. Thousands were slaughtered so that the recent israeli elections would swing hard right, same mode of operation as the bush invasion of Iraq for domestic election results (the Rove plan).
Its apartheid all over again in Palestine thanks to the insane and wholly counterproductive policies of the Likud Party. Hopefully Obama can get them to back off of their genocidal policies over the next few years.
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adaydream
Obama will never get Israel off their genicidal policies of trying to eliminate all Palestinians. This is ironic from a people who suffered during WWII so mercifully. Very hypocritical of Israel. < :-)
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teleprompter
tumble dry:
What exactly fuels the "rants" - which you cannot refute - that I post?
Gots to be more specific, son.
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Madverts
"which you cannot refute""
Buddy, you'd actually have to have a point before anbody attempts to refute it.
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Noliving
sabiwabi: Just because Israel commits warcrimes does not give the palestinians the right to commit warcrimes themselves. Everyone gets away with warcrimes, look at sudan and the rebels there, they both commit warcrimes and get away with it, egypt commited warcrimes in yemen several decades ago and got away with it, the taliban commit warcrimes and get away with, AQ commits warcrimes by blowing up markets and gets away with it, the US, Israel and the palestinians commit warcrimes and get away with it.
The way in which the palestianians use those rockets are warcrimes, just because they are the victims does not give them the right to fire rockets indiscriminately at civilians, even if those civilians are Israeli and on occupied ground. No one is saying they can't shoot at Israeli forces, what they are saying is they need to stop shooting rockets at civilian targets on purpose.
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Noliving
northlondon: Well one way to look at it is that the palestinians do the samething. The palestinian argument is that since they are victims they have every right to shoot rockets indiscriminately at civilians, sabiwabi seems to be one that buys that argument just like how america seems to buy Israel's argument. The truth of the matter is that both sides are using excuses that are stupid and indefensible.
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Noliving
I find it interesting that this article unlike the others, such as al jazeera, leaves out that AI directly accused hamas of commiting warcrimes by firing those rockets, while this article only says they were denounced, so I'm curious why this article, unlike the others, doesn't use the strong language Amnesty international used against hamas.
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zurcronium
noliving,
the rockets are of course wrong but the damage is minimal, perhaps a handful killed or injured. The illegal and immoral invasion of Gaza by Israel resulted in 1300 deaths.
Lets keep this point in perspective. Basically you have a nuclear armed military juggernaut lined up against a defeated and occupied people with cap guns. Its like when the USA invaded Grenada under Reagan. The USA due to its power held the greater responsibility in that Reagan show war. Israel has greater responsibility for the occupation of course but only plays the blame the victim game that you repeat along with many others.
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Noliving
Ah but here is the problem zurcronium, numbers are not the issue here, the issue here is the intent. Is a person who tries to rape someone less worse then a successful rapest? By that I mean the victim is able to get away? No they are not, but the law though still does make a distinction for the punishment. If I take a gun and aim at you and miss, am I better then the person who aimed at you and hit you? No I'm not. Gaza rockets and there intended target(civilians) are just as illegal and immoral as what Israel does, the only difference is that Israel has better accuracy but they both have the same intent, just because Israel has been able to develop a so far successful strategy in hitting their targets and being able to setup a alarm system that gives 10 seconds of warning along with a series of bomb shelters in the towns that is able to give israeli citizens a place to hide does not make their(hamas/palestinian) weapons cap guns.
So lets put this into perspective, the average hand grenade a US soldier uses has 1/3 pound of explosives, it has over 50 meters death radius, palestinians and Israelis basically have just as destructive hand grenades as the US soldier, the AK that the palestinians use are more powerful then the m16 that US soldier and Israelis use, but it trades range and accuracy for power. The most powerful rocket that hamas has the qassam 3 and the quds 4 have the equivalent destructive power of a AGM-114 hellfire missile's that are fired from US/Israel assault helicopters and predator drones. Hamas anti tank weapon(yasin) is the equivalent of a rpg-7 which is currently still used today by the world in over 40 nations and is still manufactured in the US. These are not cap guns, since you consider them to be cap guns you would have no problem then with your house being hit by these "rockets" would you? Part of the problem with hamas is that they don't fire enough of them off at the same time, if they fired several hundred to maybe a thousand off at the same time they would have the effect of a cluster bomb. The truth of the matter is that the damage isn't minimal, the death toll is because of a so far successful Israeli alarm and bomb shelter strategy, if it wasn't for that alarm that goes off there would be hundreds of Israeli civilians dead or wounded.
Israel is nuclear armed but you know what they didn't use nuclear weapon, DU is not a nuclear by the way.
I agree that as Israel is the invading force along with the occupying force they have more responsibility, however though hamas and all the other palestisinians that take up arms have just as much responsibility as Israel does when it comes war crimes. Just because Hamas is defending and is the "victim" does not mean it is ok for them to commit warcrimes even if no one is physically hurt by those warcrimes. That is what my point is. I'm sick and tired people, particularily hamas and hezbollah, claiming that since they are on the defensive they have every right to commit warcrimes, particularily shooting at civilians on purpose. If you took the time to research the rocket firing pattern you would know that they are fired primarily during the time school children are on their way to and from school, now why would they do that?
Show me where in my posts zurconium that I said Israel(not the civilians) was only a victim, I never did nor have I said they were a victim. Israeli civilians that have rockets rain down on them are victims are they not? Are not palestianian civilians victims when they are attack by Israeli weapons.
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kinniku
Ahh, that phonics problem again...
Here are just a few. For more go to
2007: A 15-year-old Palestinian boy carrying 2 explosive devices on his body, was arrested in the northern Gaza Strip after he attempted to carry out an attack against soldiers operating in the area against Palestinians launching Qassam rockets on Israeli civilians across the border inside Israel.
2004: Human Rights Watch made the call after a 16-year-old bomber blew himself up in a Tel Aviv marketplace on Monday, killing three Israeli civilians.
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kinniku
Sorry...for more go to the BBC.
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kinniku
Noliving,
Excellent post.
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kinniku
Hamas needs to recognize that continued fighting will not give them the nation they want. Only mutual recognition and the true desire for peace on both sides. Hamas and other factions shooting rockets does not encourage peace, it merely encourages more violence. Recent events have continued to show this. Nonetheless, Hamas and other factions in Gaza continued and continue to use rocket attacks on Israel instead of negotiations.
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Den Den
kinniku, Hamas is only looking after the people. If they didn't exist, every single Palestinian would be either dead or living in camps in Jordan.
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Noliving
I never said every single weapon Israel has the palestinians have an equivalent. My point was that the palestinian weapons are not cap guns and can do serious damage and that they do indeed have equivalents with some American/Israeli weapons. Those rockets that everyone calls harmless, well the most powerful version of them are basically the equivalent when it comes to destructive power of a hell fire missile. Also the palestinians are not ants being hit be sledgehammers, besides the palestianians have their own sledgehammer that they use against Israelis, they are just inaccurate ones.
Den den, hamas intentions maybe just that but the effects of their policy to further that intention is having the opposite effect. You can't be serious in say hamas is the reason why every single palestinian is still alive and or not in a camp in jordan.
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kinniku
In the beginning, yes. Not now though.
If they and other extremists did not exist, Gaza would have a free and open border with Egypt. It is because of the violent actions on the part of extremists that the border was only open for a very short time.
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kinniku
You have way more fiction than facts in that post. To show you all of your mistakes would be both too time consuming and completely off-topic. However, I would suggest you learn a little more about real demographics around the world both historically and present-day.
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sabiwabi
And not fighting will get them even less. Palestinians lost most of their land before Hamas. Israel was created by terror and their aim is to steal more land through terror. They must be stopped by the international community.
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Noliving
But fighting though sabiwabi hasn't prevented or stopped any loss of their land. If the palestinians would have agreed to the deal the Israelis agreed to in 1948 things would be a lot different for palestine.
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skipthesong
Israel was created by terror " so was the US and the entire western hemisphere, yet none of us are considered indigenous goes around killing kids, attaching bombs to our kids to blow up a hospital, and YOU WILL NEVER EVER SEE ANY OF US EVER EVER using kids and women as shields.. In fact, If you are truly to back up your argument and if you have any Anglo blood (or black for that matter) get out....
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teleprompter
Oh yes, the "international community."
Slap another "Free Palestine" bumper sticker on the Prius.
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JoeBigs
You were doing okay up to this point, very interesting point of view before.
Now I myself take issue with your claim that you can not win a home land by terror or armed conflict.
How exactly did the Israelis win their independence? Shall we talk about Lehi, the assassination of Lord Moyne, British police station in Haifa in 1947, Cairo-Haifa train bombings 1948 or the Deir Yassin massacre 1948?
Israel was created through armed conflict there is no way to dance around it. The Israelis won their land by acts of terror.
So how is Hamas or any other Palestinian terror group any different?
For some reason when I bring this up no one can ever answer that question....
Hamas needs to acknowledge Israels right to exist and Israel needs to give up land. If those two things happen, then there maybe peace.
But until then the Palestinians will continue the Israeli blue print for independence. It is as simple as that.........
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Noliving
I don't think you get my point. My point was that hamas needs to end the violence and so do the palestinians because it isn't getting them a single result. It hasn't resulted in a single acre of land being returned or stopped from being annexed. There is no point in continuing a policy that isn't working. Israel's policy is working but its getting to be hated in the world.
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sabiwabi
NOTHING will get them the desired result. The Israelis want it all. They (and many posters here) accuse the Palestinians for the lack of peace, but it is the Israelis who do everything to avoid peace.
Just these last few days, the Israelis seized a humanitarian ship headed for Gaza. They keep the Gazans imprisoned under terrible conditions, murder them, terrorize them, and they prevent the world from helping them.
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skipthesong
sabi,
They are after all enemies, aren't they. You are asking them to help the very people that want them destroyed. This is beyond right and wrong now. If the shoe was on the other foot, and as it once was for the most part, do you think the Palestinians wouldn't do the same?
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adaydream
Den Den at 07:31 AM JST - 3rd July
I agree with your statement. Israel has continued a process of killing Palestineans in the most effective manner. Bombing safehavens for women/ children and other innocents. Bombing schools. Hamas' mission is to protect their citizens. < :-)
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skipthesong
Hamas' mission is to protect their citizens." And the IDF is there to protect their citizens.. looks like we got a problem.
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SuperLib
The Palestinians cannot reach their goal through military means. It really is that simple. They need to learn more from MLK and Gandhi and less from Iran and Syria.
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SuperLib
I'm assuming you're talking about the citizens that they aren't busy killing themselves.
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skipthesong
Super, good point, but one should not forget that the Israelis/Jews were the ones that were beaten down to being with.
Anyways, given the amount of anti-Semitism and Anti-Israeli right to exist I see here on JT and a lot of other places; I mean both the right wing and the left wingers are against them, I predict Israel and the rest of the Jews world wide will be wiped out in a matter of a few more years. Aday and Sabi will probably smoke cigars!
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smithinjapan
Skip: "smith: your post is good, but I still think you do hold a bit of bias towards Israel. Is it because the Palestinians are poor and the Israelis affluent?"
Not at all; it's because Israel plays the victim card constantly and uses it as an excuse to attack, without remorse, those who cannot fight back. That's not an issue of affluence. What's more, if you DO want to get down to affluence Israel did not get to where it is on its own -- it got there through the support of other nations, an in particular the US. Such support is fine, and in fact I think it was necessary given what happened to the Jews, but they should NOT be supported in committing the same or similar indiscriminate killings that have been visited on them. I do not condone violence by either side, but I only see Israel claiming to be the victim of violence they've committed themselves, and telling those who object they are simply anti-semitic.
"Are many of you in support of this under the impression that Israel should do nothing when they feel threatened?"
Not at all. Fire a rocket, made of small scraps, back in a random trajectory -- except that the Palestinians are walled into the biggest ghetto in history. Sending in the troops to fire shells at schools, and white phosphorous shells, killing more than a thousand? 'Overkill' doesn't even come close to covering a word to describe what is not 'doing something when they feel threatened'. Do you honestly think Israel feels threatened by a few hobby-rockets which have killed next to no one (and no one directly leading up to the Israeli campaign), skip? Are they that weak? Or is it they just wanted to subject a little more oppression on some enemies, for whatever reason?
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Madverts
"So... a bunch of lame repetitions about bumper stickers... Should we be more specific about what kind of car we think you'll choose next, or is Madverts right that you just really have no point at all?"
Smith - when they're heading up Rant creek without a paddle, irrefutable points are always jibes at the posters nationality, or the Commonwealth, or Obama is a disater, ecetera. Here we're supposed to be discussing alleged Israeli war crimes in Gaza. By the time it runs out of irrefutable points, it'll be back with trump card number one and blaming the problem on British colonial past.
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SuperLib
It's an issue of affluence.
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Madverts
"Israel plays the victim card constantly and uses it as an excuse to attack, without remorse, those who cannot fight back"
They do fight back - and often attack, albiet in a less affluent manner. But it's equally vicious.
I remain with splinters in my ass from being sat on the fence on this issue. I support neither faction untill they stop the decades of stupidity.
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Noliving
Yes they do feel threatend by those hobby rockets, if you read my post you would know just how dangerous those rockets are, you would also know why Israeli casualties have been so low. Since those rockets are so harmless as you claim you wouldn't mind having your house being hit by one of them would you? You are also forgetting that over the past decade those rockets range have tripled and there warhead payload has atleast doubled and they are now the equivalent, or atleast the most powerful version of them are, of a hell fire missile. From the Israeli point of view, the question is this, your enemy is refining and increasing the range and destructive power of those rockets and are firing them off in increasing numbers, do you wait until they really pose a threat in that they really do have the possibility of being able to defeat you or do you strike before they become that reality. Lets say your mall security, the doors are locked but people are trying to break by throwing rocks at the windows. As time goes on the crowd outside begins to throw larger and larger rocks and more too. Do you wait for that crowd to get a rock large enough and in enough number to break the window or do you strike before they are able to break the window. Remember they will eventually be able break the window if you do nothing. This isn't a defense of Israel saying what they did was ok, this is just one way to look at the Israeli point of view.
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WilliB
There is no surprise with that amnesty report. All intention firmly concentrated on Israel.
Will they ever get around to accuse Hamas of any crimes in regard to the ongoing firing of rockets into Israeli towns? For the abduction and (by now pretty sure) murder of Galid Shilad?
Don´t hold your breath.
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WilliB
Smith:
If the Katsushas and Quassams are not all that accurate, that is not by design of their builders. And it is no consolation for the residents of Sideroth, who have to live under the 24-hour threat of incoming missiles. Would you like to live like that?
Here is a nice graphic representation of the cycle of life in Gaza:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY3Z5B0Mv84
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zurcronium
willib,
when the palestinians invade israel, kill at least 1300 people including kids at UN hospitals and then barricade the entire country, then AI can investigate.
I am always amazed at how one sided the pro-israel, pro-apartheid wingers are. 1300 deaths and mass destruction versus handmade rockets that have killed less that 10 people in years and years.
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