Anti-fascist protesters breach security at BBC
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0
Altria
Hunt down the Nazis!!!
0
sabiwabi
I wonder how many of these protesters were there because they disagree strongly with the BNP, and how many were simply paid to protest (this often seems to happen).
I wonder if Sarah feels the same way about anti-Arab voices being heard (constantly) on the MSM.
0
Altria
Good point, it's certainly hard to imagine people getting fired up about racist, Holocaust denying politicians without any monetary incentive.
0
TheQuestion
Historically speaking the BBC has been as close to neutral as one can get (which seems to consist of left wingers claiming it's right biased and right wingers claiming it's left biased). If they feel like giving a bombastic ass a megaphone for a few hours a week let them have a go at it.
The accusations against the BBC are of the same spirit of the recent arguements against FOX news in that you have a far left group claiming that a news corporation that represents a different opinion than their own has no right to exist.
0
kinniku
100% of them.
Zero percent. It never happens.
One, the two have nothing to do with each other. BTW, the BNP is anti-Arab or hadn't you heard or read. I pasted some of their anti-Arab sentiments on the other BNP and their views are well know. Hardly surprising you again would have no idea though. Anyway, any normal person would be against any racism. I am sure that is very hard for you to understand. However, that is the way it is.
0
kinniku
Altria,
LOL!
0
kokorocloud
*BBC footage showed some being pulled across the floor by their arms and legs by security. The broadcaster said the protesters were “escorted promptly” from the building.
“Shame on the BBC!” one female protester yelled as she was being dragged out.*
Oh good grief. "Dragging across the floor" constitutes "escorting"?
Griffin said afterward that he was relatively pleased with the program, and had taken a lot of flack but had “been able to land a few punches of my own.”
Of course. I'm sure he'll be grinning smugly about it for a long time to come.
0
northlondon
sabiwabi, I don't quite understand where you are coming from. You make a comment about whether these protestors really stand against the BNP's manifesto of hate (therefore questioning their committment). And then a comment criticising other anti-Arabic comments being allowed to air and not being demonstarted against ? Surely most of these demonstrators are demonstrating against the BNP's constant anti-Arabic and anti-Islamic stand ?
0
TheQuestion
Try working for a club some time. If a person won't leave the premice of their own free will you're sometimes forced to convince them. Of course by 'convince' I mean you have a long civilized chat with the person who barged into the building and, through subtle and concise debate, motivate the interlopers to acquiesce...when that fails you drag them out by whatever means necessary. Some may want to save time by skipping the first part, I can respect that, but it's always more fun if you can get them to apologize for the inconvenience they put you through.
0
taiko666
The sad thing about politics in much of the western world now is that there's no viable middle ground between feeble, timid purveyors of PC dogma (Labour, Conservatives, Obama) and revolting racists like the BNP. There's no platform on which to raise and discuss logically serious, contentious issues (such as keeping religious laws out of the secular legal system, now seriously undermined in the UK.)
0
kokorocloud
TheQuestion-- haha, no doubt. It's just kind of a strange image. When I read "escorting" I think leading the people out, with some force if necessary, but dragging them across the floor means it must have been pretty crazy there (and since some officers were injured, yeah, I guess it was). Granted, I can see why.
0
sabiwabi
The BNP claims not to have anything against other races, they just don't want them immigrating to Britain. Much of MSM, on the other hand, does have a clear bias (I know, to you it is balanced) against the Arabs and Muslims of the entire world.
As for paid protesters, groups like the ADL and Bnai Brith are known to hire protesters. Some people are willing to protest anything for a few bucks.
0
kinniku
Well, their words speak louder and more convincingly than their or your claims.
Let's see, they don't want people of other races to immigrate to Britain (BTW, that is NOT just immigrate but also live in Britain) and you don't see that they have any against other races? Ummmm...they are racists. Their words and actions are the very definition of racism. Again, they also want all the non-whites out of the country, too. Again, that is racism. Seems you support that kind of thing here too. Honest of you to admit anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7Dygboz4Ew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QolIvfQEw
I disagree with your unbalanced assessment of the main stream media. However, it is interesting that the BNP's anti-Arab and anti-Muslim stance does not bother you. Interesting, but again, hardly surprising given your opinions on things.
I don't believe you. Specific and clear proof, please.
Heh, and some are willing to overlook anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiments on the part of the BNP as long as they are also anti-semetic and it suits their tastes. As I said earlier, not surprising you would feel that way. After all, you have said that you are still confused about whether the Nazis were good or bad. Anyway, I'll wait for that specific and clear proof of paid protesters. I assume I will be waiting until that very hot place freezes over though.
Now, for others reading who might still need convincing of what the BNP is all about. How about we let them and their constitution speak for themselves, shall we? I have not put any words in their mouths. These are their words. If you cannot see they are racists, then neither of you know what racism is. More's the pity on you.
"The British National Party stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples. It is therefore committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent, the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948." Umm...hint, hint. This is called racism. Nick Griffin: "Do I regard a black or Asian, who loves Britain, as a suitable candidate to stand for the BNP at election time? No, I do not. "Do I regard someone who is married to or living with a partner of another race as a suitable member or candidate for the BNP? No, because by their choice they have clearly shown that they do not share our most fundamental values." In a speech in Burnley, Griffin said this; "We bang on about Islam. Why? Because to the ordinary public out there it's the thing they can understand. It's the thing the newspaper editors sell newspapers with. If we were to attack some other ethnic group — some people say we should attack the Jews … But … we've got to get to power. And if that was an issue we chose to bang on about when the press don't talk about it … the public would just think we were barking mad. They'd just think oh, you're attacking Jews just because you want to attack Jews. You're attacking this group of powerful Zionists just because you want to take poor Manny Cohen the tailor and shove him in a gas chamber. That's what the public would think. It wouldn't get us anywhere other than stepping backwards. It would lock us in a little box; the public would think "extremist crank lunatics, nothing to do with me." And we wouldn't get power." (sabiwabi, are you feeling mixed feelings yet?)
0
northlondon
Asked what he would do with people living in Britain who couldn't be 'sent home' because their nationalities were not clear, he said: 'Drop them out of a plane somewhere over Africa. I don't really care.'
Daily Telegraph, May 2009
'I don't hate or have any problem with black people other than I hope very much they will remain black people. Other than I hope their children will look as black as they are...'
The Independent, June 2009
Any Muslim caught] indulging in specific crimes [would be told] it's either go back to Pakistan or be hanged.
The Scotsman, October 2009
So sabiwabi, he clearly has nothing against other races then does he ?
0
Altria
Hate for Jews > Support for Arabs
Innit.
0
northlondon
'I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated and turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the world is flat. . . I have reached the conclusion that the "extermination" tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.'
Panorama, 2001
[Any Muslim caught] indulging in specific crimes [would be told] it's either go back to Pakistan or be hanged.
The Scotsman, October 2009
Hate for Jews + Hate for Arabs, actually.
0
sabiwabi
Well that is what they have claimed, according to the BBC.
Hey, I am no fan of the BNP, I'm just getting a bit tired of the hypocrisy. Its so terrible to talk about preventing people of different races from entering Britain, but its perfectly fine to talk about blowing them up in their home countries.
And I have trouble understanding how some people are so opposed to the BNP while being great fans of Israel, which is basically a Jewish version of the BNP, fighting (in this case militarily) to "preserve" the Jewish ethnic character of a land they stole from the Palestinians.
0
Altria
Yeah, that's Nick Griffin.
Hate for Jews > Support for Arabs was for someone else...
0
WilliB
Sabiwabi:
LOL! And what, exactly, are "the Palestinians"?? Israel was the Jewish homeland already thousands of years before your arabic prophet was born, so Jews are the original Palestinians.
But you are right seeing the parallel. Israel does have a right to exist, and so does the UK. Islam excepts neither and wants to replace nations with an islamic caliphate.
0
Scrote
Where are the protests against the black van fascists here in Japan?
0
Alan
Extremists of every hue should be encouraged to spout their nonsense in the full glare of TV studio lights. They need to be out in the open where we can keep an eye on them.
By trying to suppress free and democratic discussion, the yahoos who broke into the BBC studio actually gave undeserved credibility to Nick Griffin.
0
northlondon
Have to agree with the BBC (and with Alan). This Griffin bloke is a prize twat and the best way to deal with madmen like him is to give them a platform. Denying him the platform gives racist scum like the BNP leverage to use. Give him enough time and sure enough the garbage will flow from his big gob.
0
skipthesong
Where were these anti-facists when the BBC aired a Muslim scholar who called for the killing of Israeli children as well a Muslim cleric who called for killing of homosexuals or even New UN President Ali Abdussalam Treki Calls Homosexuality "Not Acceptable"?
The BNP most likely wouldn't let me in their homes, but I have to say being against sharia law, which has been pushed in areas of London and is gaining, as well as allowing those who are clearly against you in your country I would not call fascist. We have all seen the signs and many there were calling for death right there in London. Seems to me this guy is the only white guy with guts - even if he wouldn't like me. Better than you type who would kiss up because you're afraid.
The BBC has aired quite a number of nut cases. Why should this one be considered the mother of all offences?
0
sabiwabi
The problem with blocking freedom of expression is:
Who decides which views can and cannot be expressed?
The BBC? The government?
0
skipthesong
sabi: that's a scary situation. I am sure of one thing, keep blocking speech you don't like. Let them hide, and one day, they'll come out swinging hard. And, all because of many here who find it so important to prohibit a man to speak, when they do come out, I may be the one who gets hit for appearing to resemble them. To two posters above, weren't you the same ones who thought dialogue was important?
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Yeah, sure. That is why you wrote at 04:02 PM JST today here:
http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/white-supremacist-fringe-party-invited-to-take-part-in-bbc-program#showallcomments
That:
Interesting that you see 'some sort of logic' to racist ideas. Interesting, but again, not at all surprising given your views on things.
Ummm...what are you on about? He was on the BBC. It says so in the article. There was no blocking of anything. In addition very few, if any posting here have been saying he should have been blocked.
0
kinniku
skipthesong,
As I just wrote above, the man was not blocked from appearing and there have been very few, if any, posters here saying he should be blocked. I and others are merely pointing out that the BNP are bloody racists. We have proven that they are here and on the related thread. We have a right to say that, too.
0
kinniku
steen,
You do seem lost. I and others have posted quite a lot of BNP quotes and information that easily, specifically and clearly demonstrate the racism on the part of the BNP. This racism has nothing to do with 'immigration'. This has to do with the BNP, in the word of Griffin himself, using arguments that will appeal to the public (such as their current anti-Arab and anti-Muslim stance) to curry favor and win over as many votes as possible. However, as is clear in the videos I linked as it is in the quotes I and others have provided that the BNP's real desire to get into power and create laws that will allow them to get rid of any non-white citizen in Britain. These are Griffin ideas and the ideas of the BNP. I have linked the videos that show it. You really should look at them.
0
skipthesong
Kinniku, I welcome your statements. Again, I don't know much about these guys, I'm trying to read on them now. Are they racist in the sense that they don't want blacks, who've been there from god knows how long or Orientals... if they are anti-Muslim and that's it, I can't say I'm against them. where are your links?
0
kinniku
skip,
Thank you for your response. My links are both in this and in the related BNP thread. Please also check out their constitution, which I also linked. In answer to your question, among many other racist ideas, the BNP are against non-white British citizens that were born and raised in Britain.
Regarding your feelings on Muslims, I wish you would reconsider. I understand being against extremism. I certainly am. However, basing negative feelings solely on the religion is also racism and extremism. Remember, there are extremists in every religion.
0
grafton
Sabiwabi,
In this instance you really do seem to know next to nothing about the subject. Griffin would hate you being in the UK just as he would any none white. The fact that he might (might) agree with some of your strange ideas does not make him your friend. Trust me, he would hate you as much as he does hate me.
You really should not believe what the BNP say about the BNP, they are trying to get votes on what they believe are the average Britain’s fears. At the moment the issues in the UK are cantered around immigration and Muslim immigration in particular, the BNP see this as a way of winning votes so will say whatever they believe will win them votes, you don’t have a vote so you don’t count.
The real danger and this could be said about any political party, is that some elements of what is said have a truth, Muslims in Britain are generating bad feeling among the indigenous population, the population is getting too high for such a small island and there is always the background of the economic crises that adds fuel to the reasoning that immigration is adding to unemployment. So there are truths to be found in what the BNP have to say, but they are there ONLY to trap the gullible.
If the BNP were ever to get into power in the UK they would change laws so that being the “wrong” colour would mean being ejected from the country. And it would not matter if a person was second, third or forth generation British. It would be legal because the (BNP) government says it is legal. But that would not mean that it was right morally. Hitler did much the same thing in Germany when he made it impossible for Jews to live and work in Germany.
Having said all that it does need to be pointed out that there are no real political parties in Britain to meet the real needs of the British people, the stupidity of the major parties have created a move to the extreme right because there is nothing in between.
My family is made up of five ethnic groups by blood and two more by marriage we stand no chance in Griffin’s Britain even though most of the family know no other “home” country. However, we are not the extreme left or extreme right and we would all want free speech in any and all countries. Even if that meant listening to both you and Griffin, neither of whom we could possibly agree with.
The British need to be very careful about what they ask for, they may get far more than they bargained for.
0
kinniku
Grafton,
Excellent post.
0
skipthesong
kinniku and grafton: Great posts. Again, I actually agree with you more than you think. My point is more or less that this group would not exist had many in the Muslim community had acted more rightous about their adopted homeland. How is a person born to a land, taught to be patriotic to it supposed to react when they open their doors and the people they open their doors to basically crap on them and push for the natives to change to their ways. How can you tell me that you can be so tolerant towards many in the Muslim community's push for having Sharia law? How can you expect people to just simply come up with an understanding when their jobs are disappearing and yet at the same time there are programs being pushed to give immigrants first tibbs on jobs and believe it or not childcare and school over the natives? The BNP would not exist for the most part had the guests acted as such first and tried to become part of the land - not change it. I know the BNP would not welcome an Hispanic with a Japanese wife, but they would not exist if the circumstances had been different in the immigrant community, mostly in the Muslim that is. You noticed they haven't attacked orientals, at least I haven't seen that on any link found.
0
cooperstown
"The University of Cambridge-educated Griffin said he expected a hostile reception, but had a right to be heard, and insisted his views had been misrepresented."
Cambridge graduate. I was shocked to read that.
0
kinniku
skip,
Thanks again for your response. If you are merely saying that you are against extremism. I agree with you 100%. Extremism should not be tolerated. However, I would like to remind you that in its history your country has benefited from the influx of immigrants much more than it has been damaged by them. In fact, the US was basically formed for and by immigrants above everything else.
There is so much to sift through and I have linked and provided so much, that you may not have noticed this statement or others like it:
Basically, as Grafton correctly pointed out and as I have been pointing out, if the BNP were to come to power in Britain, it would be out with anyone they did not consider 'white'. So, yes, Asians would be kicked out as well no matter how long they had been in the country and no matter that they were citizens. They are racists through and through.
0
kinniku
Just to be clear, I do not think the US has been damaged at all by immigrants.
0
skipthesong
Just to be clear, I do not think the US has been damaged at all by immigrants." you are correct, but what is causing problems are politicians who pander to them at the expense of the people who've either been born or have been there for a long time. Basically, I hear a lot of people from the UK recently talking about what is going in one direction and not in the other. Again, the BNP will either have to modify themselves and accept "others" or they will have to be killed off. but by shutting them up, is what I am trying to explained. There are legitimate gripes in issues like this on both sides. If politicians are going to choose one side over the other, you are going to have groups much worse than the BNP come out of the wood work. I read on one of your links that the Neo Nazi types aren't too happy about them for various reasons. Now that is scary. Let them get their word out. Hear their gripes. They just might conform; as I see the gripes being voiced by people on the BBC but would prefer that they don't join in on the BNP, but the question remains - who do they have to go to?
We have a similar problem in Miami!
0
kinniku
skip,
I would agree there are many problems in the UK that need to be taken care of. The BNP has been taking advantage of the dissatification to use it to their advantage. However, Griffin himself admits it is just saying what people want to hear in order to get in power. Then they plan to do as they really would like.
Yes, Griffin refers to the voices that call on the BNP to go back to the days of anti-semitism. The BNP in their desire to be accepted have temporarily shifted their racist focus away from Jews (as detailed in quotes above) toward Arabs and members of the Muslim faith. As such, they claimed to support Israel's 2006 war with Hezbollah in Lebanon and encouraged Israel 'to leave a bunch of greasy spots where the Arabs were. It is this fake support for Israel that is rubbing the neo-Nazis the wrong way. In one of my video links you can see as Griffin, appearing along side David Duke, tries to smooth things over with a white supremacist group explaining that although they really share all the same values as the group the BNP have had to make adjustments to their message in order to attempt to get into power. That is the real scary thing.
0
sabiwabi
The problem with blocking freedom of expression is:
Who decides which views can and cannot be expressed?
The BBC? The government?
0
WilliB
Nice to see these "antifascists" behaving like fascists.
0
kinniku
The problem with a lack of reading ability is that you can have trouble understanding that nobody block any thing or anyone and that pretty much no one here on JT has been suggesting that he should be blocked. Nick Griffin was on the BBC. You can see him on Question Time on YouTube as well as all of the videos detailing his racism.
0
kinniku
Free speech for all means that both Nick Griffin has a right to be heard as do the voices of the protesters. That is democracy.
0
grafton
skipthesong and kinniku
I´m not sure if this thread is still live but if so then thank you both for your comments. Plus you do both realise that we all nearly agree? Skip, I am near enough in exactly the same position as you and as such know perfectly well where I would stand with the BNP. The real harm that has been done in the UK has been done by weak government pandering to those that make the loudest noise. Yes that is the pointing the finger at Muslims in this case. They have created ghettos, they have made segregation a part of their lives yet they have also impinged on the lives of the indigenous people by making demands that no host country should have ever tolerated. Immigration in and of itself is not a bad thing, but in the case of Britain everything has got out of balance. It is a small over crowded island, immigrants have been pandered to as part of a political ideology and the indigenous population have been pushed to the back.
The BNP is a small monster that will need a lot of feeding before it gets really dangerous, sadly the UK government is feeding it with the discontent that is being generated by a myopic view of what they see is right. The Labour party is not listening to the voters and as such those voters are being driven into the arms of who they believe is listening to them, the BNP. But the BNP today is not the BNP that the British will have to live under should that monster ever get into power. Then the horror of the 1930/40s Germany will be visited on the UK.
In the meantime the Muslims in Britain have given the BNP more voters than any TV programme could ever do. In Germany the Jews were made the scapegoat of the Nazi party, in Britain the Muslims are doing the job on themselves without any help from the BNP.
0
sabiwabi
I was responding to opinions expressed in the article and on BBC News that Griffin should not be allowed to express himself in public.
And so I still think that at the heart of this issue is:
Who decides which views can and cannot be expressed?
The BBC? The government?
0
sabiwabi
Grafton, In this instance you really do seem to know next to nothing about what I have posted. Please do not rely on kinniku's distortions and misrepresentations.
0
kinniku
I disagree completely. Grafton has aptly pointed out that it seems you do not no anything about the subject (considering you have written absolutely nothing specific to the BNP or to Griffin). For example, you made a silly claim that you wouldn't not expect the protesters to protest against anti-Muslims, when that is exactly what they were doing.
Personally, I think you agree with the BNP much more than you are willing to let on. In fact, your response to both the BNP articles here has been tepid to say the least. You even went as far at the beginning of the discussion to claim that you did not understand why people were calling them supremacists (LOL!), and you continued with that strange line of thought even after it was proven that they were and are indeed racist white supremacists.
LOL! Heh, you sound like Griffin. Specifically, what distortions and mispresentations would you be referring to. There have been none on my part whatsoever. You seem to constantly forget (as Griffin often does when asked about quotes of his in videos he has been in) that everything we write remains here unedited (one of the many nice things about JT).
In most country both the media and the governments do. In a free society, such as Britain, people are allowed to air opinions that people may find odious. That is why the BBC let him speak. So, what exactly is the point of your question?
0
kinniku
I forgot this part. This protesting is also a part of a free society. People are free to protest things they don't like. Welcome to democracy.
0
kinniku
Grafton,
Another excellent post! Well done!
0
kinniku
Grafton,
Sorry, I just wanted to add that average Muslims in the UK are not to blame. In fact, the real blame lies with the lying BNP. Extremism should not be tolerated. I just wanted to be clear about that. I realize you must have been talking about Muslim extremism (I hope so anyway) and not Muslims in general.
0
sabiwabi
That is indeed a silly claim, whatever the claim is. Unfortunately, I never made that claim. The same goes for most of your attacks against what you seem to think are my views. All you do is attack me by misrepresenting my views. If you had anything intelligent to state, you wouldn't need to do this.
Yes, and I believe it is a good thing that the BBC let him speak. But many feel that Griffin should not have the right to express his views. I am not saying you feel that way, just that many people do feel that way.
All I am saying is that if we start blocking people from expressing certain views, we have to be concerned about:
Who decides which views can and cannot be expressed?
The BBC? The government?
0
kinniku
Yeah, you did.
Unless you have a ghostwriter you wrote that. Interesting how Sarah was protesting against anti-Arab voices on the BBC, ie the BNP and you had no clue whatsoever that that is what she was doing.
As you can see, I have not misrepresented your views at all. I have shown you didn't have a clue what the BNP was all about. Funny how you can never point to such misrepresentation. That is of course because I merely point out what you write. Funny how you try to deny what you write. Again, just like Griffin does.
So? They have a right to their opinions. You are correct that I do not feel that way. I like the dirty laundry to be aired.
Yes, but people do have a right to protest that which they feel is offensive. That is their freedom of expression, too.
Why do you keep writing this? I have asked and answered it. Do you disagree with my answer? If so, it would be more effective to specifically state your disagreement.
0
sabiwabi
No, you just don't understand them; and I am tired of explaining them to you.
Indeed.
I think I made it very clear why I wrote that we must be concerned about:
Who decides which views can and cannot be expressed?
The BBC? The government?
0
dbung10
Free speach is one thing, inciting racial hatred is another. There are radical Muslims on one side that do this and there are extremists like Griffin that do it on the other.
They should be locked in a room together. They will probably find out they have a lot in common (the fact that they enjoy hating people). If they dont get along, we should just, i dunno, leave them in the same room until they do....
0
dbung10
speech
0
kinniku
Probably because you write things like what you wrote yesterday at 2:56pm:
Then I write that I haven't misrepresented you views at all and then you admit that I haven't by writing:
So, you don't even understand what you write. BTW, I understood the words you wrote and responded precisely and specifically. You still haven't shown any supposed misrepresentation, neither have you shown any lack of understanding of your position. Your position is quite clear and reflected in your absolutely tepid response to the BNP and in fact you have claimed that there is 'at least there is some sort of logic to their argument', which is basically support for a clear and proven a racist argument. In addition, you still haven't explained how you managed not to realize that people protesting the BNP were protesting an anti-Muslim group. You know when you asked if the protest would also be willing to protest an anti-Muslim group. You have managed not to understand that your question did not and does not make any sense. I am not the only poster to point this out to you.
No, you have not. Repeating the question over and over again, does not make it clear. This is especially true when the question was discussed and answered the first time you asked. Most, if not all, countries make decisions about what can be shown in the media both at the government and media level. Since the BBC did broadcast the show, did have Griffin on the show, and certainly has at least equally controversial guests on their programs, your already answered questions seems even more strange since you keep repeating it without discussing responses to it. Now, I know what you really want to say, as you have written it many times. Let me spell it out for you, okay? You want everyone to mistakenly believe that Jews control Western governments and media. You want people to believe this and hate the idea of this false conclusion. Then you want to use this false conclusion to encourage people to disbelieve Western governments and media because of your false claims that they are controlled by Jews. All the while you have made almost no comment about the BNP, their policies (which you did not seem to know about when you commented on the protesters as shown in your quote above) and in fact, you seem to feel their is some 'logic' to their racist argument.
Yes, I understand you fully.
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