Argentina orders Holocaust-denying bishop out
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0
likeitis
My opinion of Argentina just took a nose-dive. This fool is not denying the Holocaust, he is disagreeing over details. And the mass media is being TOTALLY irresponsible about reporting that fact. My opinion of them has also taken a nose-dive.
So much for free speech and responsibility. You both will be missed.
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kinniku
likeitis,
You raise an interesting question. Exactly what does it mean when people say someone "denies the Holocaust"? In this case I disagree that Williamson is merely disagreeing over details. This makes it seems as though he is just discussing minor details or small parts, or that he is just disagreeing with one area of discussion. Such things would be commonplace in discussions of historical and geopolitical events. However, is that all Bishop Williamson has done? I do not think so. The Bishop seems to be denying most if not all of what is considered the "Holocaust". If we are to believe this article (since Williamson has not denied the quote, one can reasonably assume it is accurate) in 1989 the man stated,“Jews made up the Holocaust, Protestants get their orders from the devil and the Vatican has sold its soul to liberalism.”He has also been quoted as saying “the Jews created the Holocaust so we would prostrate ourselves on our knees before them and approve of their new state of Israel.”This along with his other comments on the Holocaust lead to the reasonable conclusion that he basically denies the major parts of what is considered the Holocaust.
Now, does that mean he should be forced to leave Argentina solely because of this. Well, since he is not a citizen of Argentina, the country can ask him to leave at their pleasure. If a country thinks a non-citizen is acting in a way that is to the detriment of the country, they can be asked to leave.
Personally, I think it is better that people like him are allow to air their dirty laundry in public the better that we can all see it. This kind of action only lends credibility to the man amongst people who have very little credibility to begin with...
0
likeitis
Absolutely correct. But I feel completely justified in disagreeing with their reasoning for exercising that option and thinking considerably less of them for it.
Agreed. But lets compare this to a recent even, shall we? Remember when the Lancet report said that something like 600,000 people died in Iraq? There was an uproar. People just could not believe or accept that figure, but never before had the Lancet been questioned like that. There figures were always fine when it was the other guy getting blamed. Here we have a figure of 6,000,000, from over 60 years ago, and people are accepting that without question? Don't you find that just a little odd?
And isn't 200,000 to 300,000 intentionally murdered in death camps not terrible enough? Must it be gas they died of? Are bullets not bad enough? Mass starvation? Intentionally allowing plague to spread?
I have no idea how he accounts for the large disparity in the numbers. It may well be that he believes millions died outside of the camps, such as in ghettos, and were not killed per se, but rather allowed to die. Or that they died from bombs, fire, bullets, violence in general or other. I really don't know. There are lots of possibilities.
That is true too. I think the man is a nut myself, but even the most nutty people can do or say things are not nutty sometimes.
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kinniku
Yes, I also think you have every right to feel that way.
The 6,000,000 number is a symbol of the horrible number of deaths. The fact is that for historians the 6,000,000 is not set in stone. Various "mainstream" historians have given different figures. For example, if I am not mistaken, Raul Hilberg gave his estimate at 5.4 million. As I mentioned earlier, it is not his disagreement about one part that is the problem. The Bishop himself says, among other things, that 'the Holocaust was 'made up"'. He is clearly denying the Holocaust.
I have a pretty good idea. He thinks it was "made up".
Well, it is hard to talk about such things with a man like Williamson, because he has already come to the conclusion that the whole thing was "made up". So, it seems the discussion hits a dead end before it even begins. The problem with Williamson is not just whether he believes people were killed by gassing or not. It is that he see the whole Holocaust as something that is not real. In addition, he seems to see members of the Jewish faith as enemies solely based on the fact they are Jewish.
In addition, it is people like Williamson that make rational discussions about the Middle East and Israel impossible since they see everything revolving around Jewish people as being some sort of evil plot.
Yes, but in this case, I think the things he has said, about which we are discussing, are "pretty nutty".
0
jeancolmar
I'm getting tired of repeating the same things. If anyone has doubts about the Holocaust they can do an Internet search. You'll get plenty of information. Start with Wikipedia, where it's all laid out in an easy to grasp style.
As for the Bishop, I do not know what his problem is. He is not stupid. He does not seem to be insane, as I first assumed. Yet he believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as real, and that long-discredited Holocaust denying pseudo-scientific evidence is authentic. He thinks that Jews, Free Masons and liberals are perverting the Catholic Church. He also apparently believes that JFK's assassination and 9/11 were government conspiracies. He also hates The Sound of Music. Williamson's extreme conservatism is no doubt at the root of his problems with the Holocaust, as well as The Sound of Music. He said in his Der Spiegel interview when asked about anti-Semitism: "St. Paul put it this way: The Jews are beloved for the sake of Our Father, but our enemies for the sake of the gospel." He goes on to say that everyone needs the salvation of Christ, including Jews (this an almost word for word paraphrase). The ugly little fact about fundamentalist Christians is that they believe that non-Christians will go to Hell. If you accept this, then anyone who keep the Christians from converting the non-Christians is in league with the devil. That may be the base of our bishop's problem. But how an intelligent and educated man can seriously believe the Leuchter report is beyond me.
Okay, people who know the Catholic Church please tell me this. Even those Williamson was excommunicated in 1988 he continued to work for the church as an educator and administrator. How come the Church did not tell him to pack his bags and get out?
Well, that Williamson is not wanted in Argentina is a healthy sign about Argentina, if you know its history. It long-hid Nazi war criminals and during the 1970s "dirty wars" the country's rulers persecuted Jews, including Jacobo Timerman. Also many hard core Peronists were anti-Semitic, though that was apparently not the case of Juan Peron himself. Argentina has a lot to live down.
0
sabiwabi
Indeed, they tried to use that number in WWI too, but they gave up on that one. I think there is some biblical reason for sticking with the 6 million number.
I agree it is terrible. However, although people were indeed placed into camps, I don't think most were intentionally killed. For example, if they wanted typhus to spread, they would not have shaved the inmates' heads, deloused their clothing and linen, etc...
Also, they made such a big deal about the gas chamber, if it can be proven that the homicidal gas chambers were not used, the credibility of the entire holocaust story would take a nose dive.
Anyway, its sad that Argentina did this. It seems that even where holocaust "denial" is not illegal, they find ways to punish people. They suddenly look for things to get people (did they do their taxes perfectly, visas, ...).
0
sabiwabi
Indeed, the Internet has a lot of information. I recommend people visit www.vho.org and www.codoh.com, which also has an excellent forum where you can ask any question you like.
If you want to learn more about Bishop Williamson’s writings, you can visit the St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary web-site: www.stas.org .
I wonder how the Argentine population will react to the expulsion of this holy man.
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kinniku
"Who" tried to use that number? For what exactly? Specifics, please...
Then again, you think Nazis would take time from escaping the oncoming allies to blow up simple air raid shelters. So, I don't think you think things through particularly well. By the way, specifically what makes you think the number has some biblical reason? Specifics, please...
Well, that is not how true historians look at things. That is how most people with a specific agenda of spending conspiracy theories would look at it though.
He went against his church. It is reasonable the church punished him. He is a guest in Argentina. Although, I may disagree with laws against Holocaust denial, the fact remains that a country may ask a non-citizen to leave at their own pleasure...
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kinniku
Jean was referring to "information", not "misinformation". You forgot to add the "mis". Simple mistake...
Yes, where you will see that there has been no distortion whatsoever about what the Bishop has written and said...
0
jeancolmar
I reiterate that the web has a wealth of information on the Holocaust, including material that refute the Holocaust deniers. There is no reason for anyone to live in ignorance, least of all a public person like the Bishop.
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jeancolmar
Okay, I followed up one of Sabiwabi's leads. And, oh boy, there is a lot of crud out there as well. Lots of pretty awful anti-Semitic and Holocaust denying websites. My favorite for sheer idiocy is the KELTIC KLAN KIRK website. It calls George W. Bush "Jew Boy King George II." It also let's you download the Leuchter report. Our friends, the deniers, travel in really fine company.
0
WilliB
Holocaust-denial is official policy of muslim countries like Iran. I bet the local muslim clerics are not ordered out, so why is Catholic cleric held to different standards?
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sabiwabi
jeancolmar, that is such a deceptive move, on par with kinniku's usual post. In all my reading of revisionist material, I have never come across the site you mentioned. I'm sure you could defend your position without resorting to such tactics, unless of course, you happen to know that you are defending something that is not true.
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sabiwabi
Well jeancolmar mentioned that "He thinks that Jews, Free Masons and liberals are perverting the Catholic Church." Maybe Islam has not been perverted by them yet, all they manged to create are small groups like Al Quaeda. Maybe that is why there has been for some time an anti-Muslim campaign.
0
Helter_Skelter
Absolutely. Hardly a surprise Iran sponsored a holocaust-denial conference with neo-Nazi David Duke as the keynote speaker.
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presto345
The Holocaust deniers, who are among us, fervently searching the internet, will only find their own interpretation of the 'truth', because that's all they can see.
I, my friend, wonder how this 'holy man', this 'oracle', is capable of asserting that the Holocaust was created by the Jews [themselves]. This is the most preposterous thing I've ever heard. And it is sufficient to declare this man a total nut and a danger to society. People who are attempting so hard to exonerate him for his stupidities and pointing out that he's made statements that contain [some] truth are right in his league and are also, yes. And, BTW, I object to calling this character 'holy'. That is blasphemy.
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jeancolmar
Oh gawd, this gets weirder and weirder. Do this sabiwabi if you don't believe me do this: Go to the search engine of your choice and write in or paste "KELTIC KLAN KIRK." You'll get plenty information, including this charming group's website.
0
kinniku
So you say, yet one of your favorite links to post has an article entitled "Crypto-Jews" where they do indeed suggest George Bush is a "Crypto-Jew". That is the type of websites you recommend. As the expression goes birds of a feather...
0
LFRAgain
You think? That's precisely the problem here. You and others who would whitewash the Holocaust present your "thoughts" on the subject as fact-supported truth, when in reality, they’re poorly constructed musings born of conspiracies imagined. The 6-million figure has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible or any other religious text.
Williamson claims that not one Jew was gassed to death in Europe during the war, and declares any aspect of the Holocaust in which Jews were systematically gassed as, and I quote, "All lies, lies, lies." He uses the factually incorrect and procedurally flawed Leuchter Report to support this claim. This, in concert with his rather large body of publicly available written work detailing the width and breadth of some sort of vast Jewish conspiracy to rule the world are ample evidence the Williamson isn't quite playing with a full deck in the latter years of his life.
Kudos to the Argentine government for taking a stand against Williamson's particularly insidious brand of hate-mongering.
Incidentally, just to keep things on track for both sides of the argument, the figure of 6 million does not refer to 6 million Jews gassed. It refers to the total number of Jews murdered across Europe during Nazi Germany's reign of terror through various means, including gassing.
While this number may indeed be mind-staggering and difficult to believe, do keep in mind that some 5 million other civilians were also systematically killed by the Nazis in a war that claimed the lives of some 41 million civilians worldwide, with approximately 23 million of those deaths occurring in Europe alone. Against these figures, 6 million deaths as the result of deliberate targeting isn’t really all that hard to imagine.
0
ANOTSUSAGAMI
If Germany herself admits it, who are we to say they're lying or wrong? What would they possibly have to gain by admiting to thier leaders commiting genocide? Were ANY of the deniers there? As far as I've heard the answer is no.
0
grafton
sabiwabi I have just done a back check on your previous posts, it would seem that you only come out of your otaku nest to comment on subjects that allow you to attack anything related to the Jewish people. What do you do the rest of the time? This mad man who really has no true standing in the Catholic church if he has been excommunicated has been expelled from Argentina because Argentine sees him for what he is, a trouble making crazy that they do not want in their country & they every right to do just that. They do not have to give an answer. Doubtless Iran or Zimbabwe will accept him.
This is now the 21st century & Williamson’s views come from the dark ages of Europe, the issue about the holocaust is only one aspect of this mans delusional view of the world today. Sabiwabi you are so bent on defending this mans thinking on the holocaust that you seem not to have heard anything else he has been saying. Can you in all honestly defend this mans thinking about 9/11, the Free masons, or his attitude to women? Or for that matter anything else he says?
Sabiwabi, can you not see what everybody else sees? The man is a crazy.
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