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Argentine seminary ousts Holocaust-denying bishop

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Richard Williamson sounds like a right proper horse's ass. It's about time the Church did something about this. It still baffles me that Pope Bendict maintains he had no idea about these views. I don't buy it.

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Instead of relying on the alleged quotes in this article, people should have a listen to the actual interview: http://www.forward.com/blogs/bintel-blog/15031/

Bishop Williamson explains his reasoning quite well. I agree with him that according to the evidence “between 200,000 and 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but not one of them by gassing in a gas chamber.”

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Bishop Williamson explains his reasoning quite well"

Ok, he spoke his mind, but perhaps it would be best for a religious figure to stay out of political things such as this. I mean, if he wants to set records straight, there is so much a priest can address long before this subject comes to mind.

I'm starting to see a bad trend starting up.

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sabiwabi,

I listened to the interview. Several times. The quotes above lose no meaning, even having been taken out of context. I’m just making an assumption, but I would imagine that if he’s going to defend his position, he would do it with the strongest argument available, so I looked at the evidence Williamson presented first and foremost as a basis for his claim, namely research conducted by so-called gas-chamber expert Frederick Leuchter, Jr., who concluded that the rooms at Auschwitz reported to have been gas chambers had in fact never been exposed to cyanide gas.

Unfortunately for Williamson, Leuchter’s “research” methods wouldn’t pass muster in any reputable laboratory. The reasons why are widely published, but suffice to say that Williamson is basing his assertions on incorrect information. The historical record that he touts so fervently, or rather his version of the historical record is inaccurate.

But that’s not why I think he’s an ass. On the surface, his argument is sound. When it comes to looking for the truth, emotion should be set aside and answers would be sought in the facts. Which makes me wonder why he could couch his “emotionally unbiased” claims amid zingers like ““the Jews created the Holocaust so we would prostrate ourselves on our knees before them and approve of their new state of Israel.”

Also, from his article, “The Jews in the Latter Times,” in the May 1997 edition of Catholic, he wrote, regarding Jews:

"their grave defects rendered them odious to the nations among which they were established. All this makes us think that the Jews are the most active artisans for the coming of antichrist."

And my personal favorite:

". . . [S]econdly, down 2,000 years Jews have repeatedly sought to undermine the Catholic Church and to take Christ out of Christendom (leaving only endom or enddoom!)."

"End" . . . "doom" . . .

Sounds like a line delivered by an actor in a small town production of Lord of the Rings.

Williamson’s an ass of the highest order and you’d have to be either willfully ignorant or a ass yourself to buy into his clearly emotional anti-Semitic drivel.

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Would not want to offend the Jewish member of the Catholic church!

Come on. He is denying portions of the Holocaust, not the whole thing. He is saying some history is wrong, not advocating another Holocaust.

Wasn't there anything else to be all indignant over this month? I guess not.

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Leuchter’s report included many findings, all pointing to the alleged chambers not having been designed or used as homicidal gas chambers. You are simply repeating the usual response from the exterminist side hoping that people will not look at his report. You can download it here: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tlr/

Bishop Williamson also talks about the tall chimneys not being visible from the allied aerial photos. Do you see the chimneys in the photos?

I found his 2002 letter, for which the above article provides the link quite interesting: http://www.stas.org/publications/letter/2002/September/September.shtml

Written in 2002, it seems to be quite spot on about the current financial crisis. Interesting reading, I wish I had read it when he first wrote it.

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Surprise, surprise, another witch hunt by the Catholic church. I will say one thing in defense of the bishop. If you don't believe Jews and Freemasons harbor a great deal of animosity towards the Catholic Church, then you are quite naive and ignorant of the last thousand years or so of the history of Western civilization.

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[S]econdly, down 2,000 years Jews have repeatedly sought to undermine the Catholic Church and to take Christ out of Christendom.

Well, they certainly got the Vatican to force this brave bishop to recant (a.k.a. lie), and they have been quite successful at getting Christ out of Christmas.

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LFRAgain,

Williamson’s an ass of the highest order and you’d have to be either willfully ignorant or a ass yourself to buy into his clearly emotional anti-Semitic drivel.

Yup and some of those willfully ignorant people are posting gleefully here today, aren't they. The funny thing is in the same people will look you straight in the eye and claim they are not anti-semitic while at the same time spouting anti-semitic tripe.

Written in 2002, it seems to be quite spot on about the current financial crisis. Interesting reading, I wish I had read it when he first wrote it.

Translation: The bishop blames Jews in the article, I love it!

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likeitis,

Come on. He is denying portions of the Holocaust, not the whole thing. He is saying some history is wrong, not advocating another Holocaust.

He is denying major portions of the Holocaust. He is basically saying it didn't happen. Read his interviews. He states his warped views for all to see.

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Written in 2002, it seems to be quite spot on about the current financial crisis. Interesting reading, I wish I had read it when he first wrote it. Translation: The bishop blames Jews in the article, I love it!

I was referring to the very accurate predictions of the US dollar, stock market, derivatives, bankruptcies ... But please feel free to shout "Anti-Semite!!!"

He is denying major portions of the Holocaust. He is basically saying it didn't happen. Read his interviews.

No, he clearly says that according to the evidence “between 200,000 and 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, but not one of them by gassing in a gas chamber.” You can listen to the interview here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9BuXe2RM

You call us ignorant and antisemitic, but if you are so sure you know the truth, why don't you instead show us the evidence. That is all we ask. You have never provided any proof of gassing. I bet you haven't looked at the aerial photos the Bishop is talking about, or read Leuchter's report.

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Read his interviews.

sigh Do I have to?

He is basically saying it didn't happen.

He is saying that none died by gas, but he admits they did die. There is controversy about the use of Zyklon-B (like its effectiveness and practicality), and as far as I know, physical evidence IS lacking. Most people's understanding of the Holocaust is very limited (mine included). It is a very complex event, and there is nothing standard or uniform about it. Most of what we know come from eyewitnesses, and kindly note that those who were gassed (if gassed at all) are not telling their side of the story as they are dead, thus significantly shrinking the witness pool.

I believe in the gas chambers did exist, but I have little to offer if someone wants to counter that. If they say the Holocaust happened but just the execution method was different, why argue? For example, if he said all the victims starved to death, is that so hard to accept? I cannot remember seeing any piles of fat bodies of people supposedly gassed, you? People tend to die without food. Seems a cheap method of killing masses to me, and it would leave piles of people who look like they starved to death. How many such pictures have I seen?

It seems to me the man is not a Holocaust denier at all. Its a ridiculous charge. He is more of a Holocaust detail revisionist. His accusations against Jews and Israelis are far more worthy of controversy.

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Does it make a difference? Semantics really. How they died as against the fact that they died? Seems to me that if you Nazi apologists really think that a party that constantly villified the Jews and blamed them for amny of society's ills only managed to kill 300,000 of them, they must have ben a pretty inefficient bunch. which, I believe, their efforts in the war show them not have been. Or something.

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and why wouldn't Jews and freemasons have doubts about the Catholic church. The Church has been "in power" for ages and has actively persecuted both Jews and freemasons....

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Kinniku: Yup and some of those willfully ignorant people are posting gleefully here today, aren't they.

Like it or not, we are all ignorant about this subject. Its one of those cases where hindsight is not 20/20. I would rather just admit it than pretend what I believe must be the absolute and singular truth, because that is usually the realm of the most ignorant among us.

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How are we ignorant? there are still living survivors, reams of documents proving camps existed, photos taken etc etc.

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sigh Do I have to?

Unless you prefer to remain ignorant, yes. Especially since you are attempting to say that he didn't say anything that bad. How can you say this if you don't even know what he said?

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But please feel free to shout "Anti-Semite!!!"

Heh, in your case, most of your posts shout this out for themselves. I just point them out to you.

Moderator: Readers, if you can't keep the discussion civil, then please don't post any more messages here.

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reams of documents proving camps existed

He does not deny the camps. Some still stand. But I do not know about this "reams of documents" claim. Whose documents? About concentration camps or death camps?

there are still living survivors

Who obviously were not gassed to death. Most of them also were not invited to watch, but were kept well away from the gas chambers.

photos taken

Even photos can have multiple interpretations.

How are we ignorant?

Off the top of their head, most people cannot tell you the difference between Auschwitz II and Birkenau, or even knew there was an Auschwitz II. Many think Jews were the only victims of the death camps. Many can't distinguish between a concentration camp and a death camp.

I bet most people here imagine that most of the guards at the camps were German. Anyone know? Will watching Schindler's List again turn up the answer? Because I bet its historically inaccurate Hollywood films where most people get their info these days.

But worst of all, simply not recognizing the lack of evidence for details of the Holocaust (as opposed to the Holocaust itself) is probably the worst. The Nazis did not carry out the Holocaust in the open. They went to great lengths to cover it up. That means a lot of what we know is by inference, and that means mistakes were most surely made.

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Especially since you are attempting to say that he didn't say anything that bad. How can you say this if you don't even know what he said?

First and foremost, I never said that.

If people who are more interested in this discussion than I don't feel the need to point out those things he said about the Holocaust, I feel happy to assume they cannot be that bad.

However, the things others have brought up about his statements about Jews and Isrealis seem far more problematic.

Unless you prefer to remain ignorant, yes.

I am letting others enlighten me today. It won't make me master of this topic, but it don't think it will leave me ignorant.

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I visited Treblinka to find out how they carried out their exterminations. The camp commandant at Treblinka told me that he had liquidated 80,000 in the course of one-half year. He was principally concerned with liquidating all the Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto. He used monoxide gas, and I did not think that his methods were very efficient. So when I set up the extermination building at Auschwitz, I used Cyklon B, which was a crystallized prussic acid which we dropped into the death chamber from a small opening. It took from 3 to 15 minutes to kill the people in the death chamber, depending upon climatic conditions. We knew when the people were dead because their screaming stopped. We usually waited about one-half hour before we opened the doors and removed the bodies. After the bodies were removed our special Kommandos took off the rings and extracted the gold from the teeth of the corpses." Is that all true and correct, Witness? HOESS: Yes. COL. AMEN: Incidentally, what was done with the gold which was taken from the teeth of the corpses, do you know? HOESS: Yes. COL. AMEN: Will you tell the Tribunal? HOESS: This gold was melted down and brought to the Chief Medical Office of the SS at Berlin. COL. AMEN: "7 Another improvement we made over Treblinka was that we built our gas chamber to accommodate 2,000 people at one time whereas at Treblinka their 10 gas chambers only accommodated 200 people each. The way we selected our victims was as follows: We had two SS doctors on duty at Auschwitz to examine the incoming transports of prisoners. The prisoners would be marched by one of the doctors who would make spot decisions as they walked by. Those who were fit for work were sent into the camp. Others were sent immediately to the extermination plants. Children of tender years were invariably exterminated since by reason of their youth they were unable to work. Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka the victims almost always knew that they were to be exterminated and at Auschwitz we endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties due to that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes, but of course when we found them we would send the children in to be exterminated. We were required to carry out these exterminations in secrecy but of course the foul and nauseating stench from the continuous burning of bodies permeated the entire area and all of the people living in the surrounding communities knew that exterminations were going on at Auschwitz." Is that all true and correct, Witness? HOESS: Yes.

Testimony of Rudolph Hoess Nuremburg Trial, Commandant of Auschwitz

You can start there likeitis in the enlightment department.

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You can start there likeitis in the enlightment department.

Rudolph Hoess! Now there is a man you can trust! Except that his figure of 2.5 million Jews killed at Auschwitz was changed to 1.1 million. What's a million less?

Anyway, I said something earlier about their being few witnesses? One is even less than a few! And this one also said this*:

"Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed two and a half million Jews. But I could just as well have said that it was five million Jews. There are certain methods by which any confession can be obtained, whether it is true or not."

And that seems to be the trouble with the star witness of the Nuremburg Trials, probably the most pretentious drum head trial in all of history.

Trust me, none of us knows half of what we so often insist on thinking we know.

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Sailwind, thank you for that.

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Sabiwabi,

Well, they certainly got the Vatican to force this brave bishop to recant

Brave Sir Williamson never recanted. Rather, he issued an apology for causing the Pope distress with his views. That’s all.

Like I said earlier, I'm not going to discount outright any claims that the gas chambers didn't exist. There is certainly evidence enough to suggest that perhaps the story hasn't been told completely, but considering how rapidly the SS fled the camps at the end of the war amid rumors of coming war crime tribunals, and the destruction they left in their wake, it’s virtually impossible to this day to shed any better light on the subject than has already been thus far. And of course, as likeitit said, the dead don’t talk, do they?

I do know that I’m not going to base my opinion on the scientifically unsound research of man with no formal engineering credential (better know in the parlance as an amateur), much less 60-year old aerial photos of smoke stacks or black and white photos of reconstructed concentration camp memorials. If Holocaust deniers are so confident of the findings listed in Leuchter’s half-baked pseudo-scientific report, why haven’t they sent anyone reputable out to Auschwitz to retest Leuchter’s hypothesis since report was first released in 1988? Probably because a second effort would likely wither under scrutiny as quickly as that other bird dropping from the late-80s, Intelligent Design.

Revisionism has its place in historical inquiry, particularly when the truth is being obscured. But what is the Williamson is suggesting isn’t so much revisionism as a fanciful retelling to further his obvious anti-Semitic goals as he rails against “the most active artisans for the coming of antichrist.”

Interestingly, most of the Best Hits of Richard Williamson have been conspicuously removed from the archives at the Society of Saint Pious X main website. However, an ample dose of his paranoia-laced ranting can be found at the SSPX African sister site:

http://www.sspxafrica.com/documents/2000_June/Bishop_Williamson.htm

Just one word sums up my problem with Williamson. “Enddoom.”

How much credibility can a man really possess to coin such a ridiculous word?

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Does it make a difference? Semantics really. How they died as against the fact that they died? Seems to me that if you Nazi apologists…

Indeed, for those who died it doesn’t make much of a difference.

To the rest of us, it is important to know if the deaths were the result of a systematic plan to exterminate all European Jews or due to the poor conditions of the camps resulting from the destruction of Germany from allied bombings. If you want to understand what happened during the last century you have to look beyond (away from?) mainstream history. I am convinced the Nazis were not a bunch of rabid anti-Semites that wanted to exterminate all Jews. The more I look at it the more I see the Nazis as zionists placed in power by wealthy zionists for the purpose of getting European Jews into Palestine. The vast majority (>90%?) of German Jews were not interested in moving to Palestine before Hitler came to power.

I am not a Nazi apologist, but it is important to recognize more accurately what they were.

What I find interesting is how people seem to find acceptable that Bishop Williamson is being forced to believe in the systematic murder of 6 million Jews, mainly by gassing. These people probably also find acceptable that revisionists (e.g., Germar Rudolf, Ernst Zundel, Robert Faurisson,…) in Europe are jailed for questioning this historical event.

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LFRAgain,

Well written post as usual.

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Likeitis,

What prove do you have that he was pretentious drumhead? Do you have photos? Do you have witnesses? Do you have sworn statements from friends, family, or a Doctors statement he was afflicted with pretentious drum head syndrome?

Produce your evidence likeitis that his sworn testimony wasn't the truth.

So we all can compare.

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likeitis,

First and foremost, I never said that.

If people who are more interested in this discussion than I don't feel the need to point out those things he said about the Holocaust, I feel happy to assume they cannot be that bad.

With all due respect, people have been pointing out what the man said both here and in other related threads. He has written some horribly things and they seem based on anti-semitism for the most part.

That is my biggest problem with these kinds of discussions. Certain people write things like 'not that many Jews died', 'Hitler was part Jewish', the Holocaust was the Zionist's fault, Jewish bankers were behind the Nazis, and Jews control Western media and then when someone says 'Hey, that is anti-semitic language', they answer with 'I'm not anti-Semitic. This bishop's views are so narrow minded, it boggles the normal mind.

I agree we don't know everything about most parts of history, if not all parts of history. However, when a person start out from the beginning of their theory with the idea that Jews are 'bad', that tends to frame everything else that comes along. This holds true for any other similar racism...

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Sorry, above the second sentenced should also show as quotes.

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If Holocaust deniers are so confident of the findings listed in Leuchter’s half-baked pseudo-scientific report, why haven’t they sent anyone reputable out to Auschwitz to retest Leuchter’s hypothesis since report was first released in 1988?

They're in jail, for questioning the holocaust!

I also recommend you check out the video series "One third of the holocaust" www.codoh.com/video/onethird.html They show you the camps and compare them to "eye-witness" claims.

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Produce your evidence likeitis that his sworn testimony wasn't the truth.

What part of his figure of 2.5 million revised to 1.1 million failed to get your attention son? Do have any idea what a disparity of 1.4 million people amounts to??? Its more than the current accepted figure!!!

What prove do you have that he was pretentious drumhead?

No appeals. Complete disregard for the unfair principles of ex-post facto, which were applied liberally throughout just about any aspect of the "trials". The laws were made up as the went! A Chief Justice of the United States, Harlan Friske Stone, also dubbed them a fraud.

The trials were a farce. Not that I care much what happened to the Nazis, with the exception of Rudolph Hess (not the commandant, but the dude who defected), and maybe a few others I don't know enough about.

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With all due respect, people have been pointing out what the man said both here and in other related threads. He has written some horribly things and they seem based on anti-semitism for the most part.

Are you reading my posts? Yeah, I already accused the guy of saying questionable things about Jews and Israel. My focus is on what he said about the Holocaust.

I know that he has no good intention with what he says about the Holocaust. It does not really matter. Even the Devil himself can say the truth sometimes.

You want to tear him up for being anti-Jew? Go right ahead. Just leave me out of it.

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However, when a person start out from the beginning of their theory with the idea that Jews are 'bad', that tends to frame everything else that comes along.

If someone criticizes the crimes committed by the Mafia, that would not be considered anti-Italian. If crimes committed by the Mafia were completely ignored by the media, and someone pointed out: "Wow, most of the major media outlets are owned by Italians" that too would not be considered anti-Italian. Why do you see all attacks of any Jewish people as an attack against all Jews?

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sabiwabi,

Specifically and consistently claiming or complaining that Jews own or control things and claiming that somehow this is a bad thing is an attack on all Jews. Just as it would be if a person were claiming or complaining that Italians own or control things and claiming that somehow this is a bad thing would be an attack on all Italians.

If crimes committed by the Mafia were completely ignored by the media, and someone pointed out: "Wow, most of the major media outlets are owned by Italians" that too would not be considered anti-Italian.

Of course that would be considered 'anti-Italian' and rightly so. Once people jump beyond the talk about content and leap into complaining about people's nationality, race or religion etc, that person has become a racist. That is why I believe this bishop is a racist.

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My focus is on what he said about the Holocaust.

So is mine. That and the fact that he as well as some others link their anti-semitism with their 'theories'. Again, if you have not read what the man has said, I think it is difficult for you to say that what he said is not that bad. Just my opinion...

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sabiwabi,

The more I look at it the more I see the Nazis as zionists placed in power by wealthy zionists for the purpose of getting European Jews into Palestine.

Well, maybe after more than three years of saying this you can point out who these 'wealthy Zionists that placed the Nazis in power' are? You were completely unsuccessful up to now. You have stated and I await with interest your list of top Nazis who were Jewish and your proof that Hitler was 1/2 or 14 Jewish. I know you mentioned Max Warburg and you claimed he was traveling around freely and staying in nice hotels in Germany through out the war. However, now that I have helped you know he was forced to sell his bank and emmigrated to the US in 1939, I am curious who you will claim next.

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Sabi, I am convinced the Nazis were not a bunch of rabid anti-Semites that wanted to exterminate all Jews. The more I look at it the more I see the Nazis as zionists placed in power by wealthy zionists for the purpose of getting European Jews into Palestine. The vast majority (>90%?) of German Jews were not interested in moving to Palestine before Hitler came to power."

You telling me there was no plan to exterminate them and that the Nazi were not anti-semtic? Well, why did they push so many into Ghettos, turned their businesses over to Germans and stripped them of their citizenship?

I agree history can be spoiled and usually at those in power's side of the story only being told, but again, why would you stop at just this story then?

Also, are you trying to tell me to deny the holocaust is a crime, even in speech only and I can't refute the facts presented?

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Translation: The bishop blames Jews in the article, I love it!

Actually, his exact words are "the politicians are virtually controlled by public opinion, which is fabricated by the media, which are tightly controlled by a handful of Judeo-masons, the people who also control finance and the governments."

I believe this bishop is a racist.

No he is criticizing a handful of people from one religion. I too have made very clear MANY TIMES that I am blaming a handful of people, many of whom are Jews, but not all.

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I think it is difficult for you to say that what he said is not that bad.

The bits about the Holocaust I am reading are not bad. Please note the period preceding this statement.

I am sure the guy has said some bad things, even about the Holocaust. I am just not seeing them.

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Well, why did they push so many into Ghettos, turned their businesses over to Germans and stripped them of their citizenship?

Pushing them into ghettos is something Jewish leaders have often requested. Before Hitler came to power, German Jews were living comfortably and assimilating; Jewish leaders hated this. They welcomed the Nuremberg laws.

You telling me there was no plan to exterminate them and that the Nazi were not anti-semtic?

That is only partly true. The nazis were zionists, zionists don't really care about the suffering of the Jewish people. Jews are being exploited by the zionists. So I guess you could argue that zionists (including Nazis) were antisemitic.

Also, are you trying to tell me to deny the holocaust is a crime, even in speech only and I can't refute the facts presented?

In Germany and several other European countries, to deny any aspect of the official holocaust story can get you in jail for several years. See Germar Rudolf, Ernst Zundel, Frederick Toben, ...)

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Sorry, that should have been: In Germany and several other European countries, to publicly deny any aspect of the official holocaust story can get you in jail for several years. See Germar Rudolf, Ernst Zundel, Frederick Toben, ...)

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sabi, If what you say is true, then where does all this skin head stuff and the books and all that come from?

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Pushing them into ghettos is something Jewish leaders have often requested.

When? Where? Who? Specifics, please...

(I noticed you didn't say "a handful ". I guess you "forgot".

The nazis were zionists, zionists don't really care about the suffering of the Jewish people.

Specific proof, please that the "nazis were zionists"...

Who were these Nazis that were "Zionists"?

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No he is criticizing a handful of people from one religion. I too have made very clear MANY TIMES that I am blaming a handful of people, many of whom are Jews, but not all.

Really?

Seems I just read this above:

Pushing them into ghettos is something Jewish leaders have often requested.

I don't see "handful" or "some".

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There are a lot of hateful comments on this thread, as are the words of the bishop himself. What's more, a whole lot of it, it not all of what he says, is utter crap.

Of course there are some who WANT to hear this, and so they deem it believable in spite of the facts out there, but I akin this man's words to the likes of Japanese leaders who say Imperial Japan HELPED its neighbours, or that its neighbours repeatedly ASKED to be colonized, etc.

I'm glad that guy got canned. He has zero right to be in his position with that kind of thinking, at least in a capacity to spread it.

“There was not one Jew killed in the gas chambers. It was all lies, lies, lies,”

Yeah, and we believe YOU, partner, especially given that you were probably never there.

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sabiwabi,

You neglected to show the complete quote. Let me help you:

" As it is, if in Western democracies today a politician dares to breathe a word, for instance, against welfare or against the Jews, he knows he will be shouted down and voted out at the next election. In other words, the politicians are virtually controlled by public opinion, which is fabricated by the media, which are tightly controlled by a handful of Judeo-masons, the people who also control finance and the governments.

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smithinjapan,

Other well written post.

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Sorry, that should have been another well written post.

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Bishop Williamson is more than an ass. He is out of his mind. A Judo-Masonic conspiracy sounds like a bit of paranoia out of the 19th century. So much for the Bishop, as far as I am concerned. Why the Pope lifted Williamson's excommunication is another matter.

As far as the Holocaust denial in this thread, we have been through all of that before. Williamson bases much of his Holocaust denial on Frederick A. (Fred) Leuchter, Jr.'s report on analysis of masonry stolen from Auschwitz, which has been totally refuted, as I exhaustively showed in the debate over the David Irving affair a few years ago.

For the record, the Holocaust killed around 11 million people, around 6 million of whom were Jews. The Gypsies lost a larger proportion of their population than the Jews, though the number of their people slaughtered by the Nazis was around 250,000. The only thing "complex" about the Holocaust is not whether it happened--it did--but who can properly be called Holocaust victims as opposed to casualties of war. Gas chambers were only a part of the mechanisms of mass murder. The Jews rounded up and slaughtered by the Nazis and their Ukrainian collaborators at Babi Yar were shot to death.

I am mystified why the Pope would rehabilitate a creature like Bishop Williamson. But then, I also wonder why the Church never posthumously excommunicated Adolph Hitler, who was born a Catholic and never repudiated his Catholicism.

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"They're in jail, for questioning the holocaust!"

That's sheer speculation, and you know it.

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I can't add anything to what jeancolmar has said except "well written."

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"They're in jail, for questioning the holocaust!" That's sheer speculation, and you know it.

They are in jail. Germar Rudolf should be released this summer, but I suspect he'll want to spend some time with his wife and kids before looking at the holocaust. I'm not sure when Ernst Zundel will come out. Frederick Toben recently had a close call in London.

jeancolmar, yes I remember our holocaust discussions, but I don't remember you totally refuting or exhaustively showing anything. All you did was repeating the exterminist side of the argument. Although you have made some great posts on other topics, your holocaust posts were very much like kinniku's.

kinniku, I see you are still avoiding the aerial photos and the Dachau gas chamber.

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sabiwabi,

Thanks for the complement. Actually you brought up Dachau yourself when you incorrectly stated that holocaust deniers (revisionists) had proven that no homicidal gas chambers existed in Germany. I pointed out that there was one in Dachau. Holocaust deniers have not proven that it was not used as a homicidal gas chamber as you had suggested and they still have not. In fact, they have not proven even one of their theories. As to the photos, my question is simple: are you sure chimneys have anything at all to do with your claims that they prove that the homicidal gas chambers were not gas chambers? Be careful with your response for it might show that you again have not done the required research.

By the way, as I have pointed out before, Rudolf was a cheat who made up names and qualifications for people he used in his footnotes to 'support' his theories. Right there one has to question the validity of anything in the papers if the man cannot even be honest in his footnotes.

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sabiwabi,

I figure you must be very busy doing research and fact-checking, so do you think you could answer these questions?

Pushing them into ghettos is something Jewish leaders have often requested.

When? Where? Who? Specifics, please...

(I noticed you didn't say "a handful ". I guess you "forgot".

The nazis were zionists, zionists don't really care about the suffering of the Jewish people.

Specific proof, please that the "nazis were zionists"...

Who were these Nazis that were "Zionists"?

Also, you have claimed for more than three years that top Nazis were Jewish and you also claimed Hitler was 1/2 or 1/4 Jewish. Do you think you could provide the names of the top Nazi Jewish people and specifics of how Hitler was Jewish?

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You can get an answer to pretty much all your questions if you check out the video by Jim Condit Jr “The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler” http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6759022809518563654&q He holds up the source for pretty much everything he says. There is also a great interview about of Condit about the video with Christopher Jon Bjerknes.

Rudolf was a cheat who made up names

He used a pen name. Is your name really kinniku? BTW, my name is not really sabiwabi!

Aerial photos are not consistent with the official version of the holocaust. Photos were taken when certain things were alleged to have taken place (e.g., round the clock cremations).

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sabiwabi,

I did not ask you for a movie or a video. My questions were (I thought!) simple enough and I would like you to specifically answer them if you could...it seems as though you cannot...

As you should be well aware, Rudolf not only used 'pen names' but he also gave his pen names fake PhD's and qualifications in areas in which he is not qualified.

You did not answer my question about the chimneys either, did you. Rather strange considering you were the one who wanted to talk about them. You were so careful with your 'response' it ended up not being a response at all.

Aerial photos are not consistent with the official version of the holocaust.

What is not consistent? Specifics, please...

Photos were taken when certain things were alleged to have taken place (e.g., round the clock cremations).

Sorry, if you don't speak in specifics, it is hard to understand what you want to say. You do want us to understand what you are saying, right?

What 'certain things' are you talking about? Specifics, please...

Does this have anything to do with the chimneys you have been asking people about?

Specifics, please...

Lastly, if you are claiming (not yet having proved your claim with any specifics mind you) that Hitler was Jewish or part Jewish and that top Nazis were Jewish, why it is that you have written that you would not be surprised to find out 'Hitler was a nice guy'?

Specifics, please...

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Sorry, if you don't speak in specifics, it is hard to understand what you want to say. You do want us to understand what you are saying, right?

Indeed specifics. If you listened to Bishop Williamson's interview you would understand. And if you had a good understanding of the evidence you should be able to explain why either of us is mistaken by providing the evidence. YOU should provide specifics if you think either of us is wrong.

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sabiwabi,

Let us be clear. You have made claims on this and many other threads for quite a few years now. I have asked you specifically about these claims. You seem to be unable to give any specifics whatsoever. You seemed so confident in your claims and you made your claims first on this (and every other thread we have had discussions on). So, it is myself who is responding to your claims, not the other way around. So, the burden of specifics falls on the original claims you have made, not on my responses. For in fact, how can I respond when you are not specific? As I asked, you do want us to understand what you are saying, right? If so, it would be helpful if you could answer the above questions.

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I can't see why you can't understand one very simply thing: All Bishop Williamson and myself are asking is for proof, and you have never ever been able to provide any; although you constantly falsely claim to have successfully proven this or that in previous discussions. I have not studied revisionist material recently and I will not go back it just to have rejected with your usual childish excuses for ignoring sources.

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Sabiwabi,

Okay, enough is enough. I took time out from this discussion over the last couple of days to look through the evidence of the Holocaust, more specifically the point of contention regarding gassing at the concentration camps.

And you know what I came up with? Reams and REAMS of data. Quite literally 4.5 million pages on just the web alone, cross linking to university websites and archives, research sites, sites dedicated specifically to the Holocaust, and everything in between. Naturally, I couldn’t read all of it (I'm certain you'll take me to task for that for whaterver reason), but the evidence that I had time to look through points quite convincingly towards a resounding yes, the Holocaust did indeed happen. Yes, 6 million Jews were indeed murdered across Europe. And yes, gassing was a method used, among others, to commit this mass murder.

Damn you for sending me on that fool's errand. It wasn’t particularly pleasant reading. But thank you for allowing me to state with even greater conviction that that your smoke and mirrors act regarding chimney stacks and door frames is just that: an illusion.

If you genuinely believe that the Holocaust, or more specifically the gassings, did not happen, then I feel sorry for you in that you’re more inclined to make excuses and rationalizations for ADMITTED murderers (“We were just following orders…”) and less inclined to accept that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence indicates that the Nazis used gas as part of their plan to systematic eradicate of Europe’s Jews. And if you do believe that the gas chambers never existed, then the burden of proof lies squarely on your side of the argument. Sorry if that inconveniences you by forcing you to present far more than half-truths and grossly generous assumptions, but that’s how proving and disproving claims works in normal human society.

What is even more disturbing here is that you seem all too comfortable with aligning yourself with Mr. Williamson, a man who has spewed some truly anti-Semitic paranoia to act as bookends to his prize claim that the gassings in the Holocaust were “all lies, lies, lies.” Mind you, this is a man who in writing asserts that the currently accepted account of the Holocaust was a carefully manufactured fabrication in order to sway world sympathy towards Jews in order to secure a Jewish state in Palestine. In his writings, you can feel the venom he poured into every keystroke spelling out the word “Jew.”

And yet oddly, you haven’t raised a word of protest to his obvious bias, even when I’ve brought that issue up with you in this discussion pointedly on two occasions. Williamson is like a court lawyer in a murder case who announces before the trial begins that the victim deserved it. Wearing that kind of bias on his sleeve, it’s impossible to take anything Williamson says at face value. But you seem to have, hook, line and sinker. More the pity for you.

Your argument relies on circular logic and a factually unsupported presumption that testimony from thousands of eyewitnesses, participants, and survivors, combined with TONS of paper documentation are mistaken, coerced, or outright fabrications. The method your choose in trying to re-invent history is particularly insidious in that you try to take what seem on the surface perfectly reasonable and logical observations, e.g., “No smoke stacks” or “No cyanide residue found in buildings on the site,” and present them as incontrovertible facts, when in reality, they are amateurish observations supported by amateurish research and perpetuated by amateurish fans. In the end, all the observations, research, and reporting still amounts to the same thing: Amateur. And wrong. You and your kind try to chip away at the truth slowly, imperceptibly, from the outside, sewing seeds of doubt in the gullible and easily swayed, until you’ve created a level of popular (but mistaken) support for an idea that is as outlandish as Intelligent Design.

No, I’m not going to waste any more time here with “specifics” to satisfy your ever-changing litmus test. I did my own legwork, and as a result, found your arguments to be extremely wanting. Certainly, you'll dismiss all of the experts outright, choosing instead to cling to the "research" of the tiny but vocal army of history hacks who never had the chops to actually achieve professional respect in the field of true historical and criminal study. But maybe you'll get over this lapse of judgement someday, rather than continuing to naively and gleefully lap up this fable that Williamson has spun to lend legitimacy to his admitted distrust and hatred of Jews even unto his twilight years. Good luck with that.

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Thank you caliOcat. More could be said, but for our own education rather than convincing the Holocaust deniers that they are wrong.

When the good Bishop and his like demand and demand "proof" which they summarily dismiss and then demand proof again that the Holocaust happened they are begging the question. It is like denying World War II happened because one finds every proof of the obvious wanting.

The Bishop is not a sceptic withholding judgement until all the evidence is in. He is a bigot. What proof does he have or a Masonic-Zionist conspiracy that wants to take over the world? Zero. Likewise, he has zero reasons to deny or "doubt" the Holocaust.

The truth is in your face. The piles of corpses at the concentration camps. The corpses at Babi Yar and other sites of mass executions. The thousands if not millions of eye-witness accounts. The people who reject this sort of evidence nevertheless cling to the discredited falsehoods of the Leuchters and the Rudolphs. It would be a big joke were circumstances attending their beliefs so bloody horrid.

Hitler and his crew believed in eugenics. They began with killing off the so-called useless eaters, the physically and mentally disabled, then they went for the Poles and the Jews and other "unfolkisch" people they came across, be they dissidents, homosexuals, slavs, possibly blacks and, of course, Gypsies, who lost a greater proportion of their population than the Jews.

There are honest debates about the Holocaust but the deniers do not belong to them. I myself do not like the way the Holocaust is generally presented, ipso facto excluding non-Jewish victims (a conservative number of 5 million people). I believe that the definition of genocide should include mass murder of people of a particular political persuasion, which would very likely raise the Holocaust numbers significantly. I also think that many supposed casualties of war are Holocaust victims.

But I repeat, the deniers with their fake evidence are out of the discussion. That goes for everyone up to the Bishop. The Bishop is a bigot who wants the inconvenient truth of the Holocaust to go away.

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Thank you LFRAgain for an excellent posting. A number of us had it out with this character a few years ago and served him with much the same evidence as you and I and others have here. All we did not the end is score points and make ourselves feel proud and righteous. Unfortunately, no amount of evidence and logic will change the mind of a person who adamantly does not want to have his or her mind changed. When a person like that does go through a mind change it rarely has anything to do with the likes of us. Usually it is an extraordinary experience, like meeting a real victim of the Holocaust.

For whatever reason, Sabiwabi hates the Jews. The Bishop also hates the Jews. The next question to ask is why these sorts of people hate the Jews. There is a long and gory anti-Semitic tradition within Christianity. So it might be that there is no personal reason or empirical reason to hated the Jews, the poison having passed down from one generation to the next to the point its "truth" is a given, like the unquestioned existence of God.

But the Bishop says the Holocaust is a myth designed by the Jews (and, I guess, the Masons) to force the establishment of Israel. Okay, a lot of Jew-hating has come out of the horror that Israel has delved out to the Palestinians. In that way it is like the hatred of Arabs and Muslims that we see today, particularly after 9/11. To that emotional argument there is a clear rational answer that does not require details discussion of chimneys and doorframes: You cannot not blame the sins of Israel on the Jews as a whole just as you cannot 9/11 on Muslims as a whole. About the only descent thing George W. Bush did as President was to go into a mosque right after 9/11 and say that Islam was not to blame for that atrocity and that it was the religion of peace. Likewise I would say that Judaism is also the religion of peace and rationality and that Israel's Gaza slaughter was un-Jewish, as 9/11 was un-Islamic and the Holocaust was un-Christian.

I am speculating and making a lateral argument here, having had my fill debating the usual Holocaust denial rubbish. I will go one step further. Blame Hitler and centuries of European anti-Semitism and not the Jews for creating the monster that Israel has become. Had these not existed there would have been no need to an Israel. And one more thing. The Bishop, besides being out of his mind, is also politically naive. The US, dominated by a White Protestant Anglo-Saxon ruling class, would not be supporting Israel until national and geo-political economic interests were involved.

Finally, I've search for that last big Holocaust debate we had with no success. i presume it is now cyber dust. Too bad as a lot of it could have been useful here in dealing with the mad Bishop and his equal mad supporters.

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Typos, typos, typos! Tip-toe through the typos and I think my intent is more or less clear!!

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Very clear, Jeancolmar. Very. Thanks for your efforts here. As tiring as these debates can be, though, it's my fervent belief that we have to keep having them, even unto exhaustion, if for no other reason than to constantly remind the horribly misguided that their manufactured fantasies are, even after all their posturing, still just fantasies. To not rise up in defense of the truth is to invite the inevitable and gradual whittling away of it by people whose obvious intelligence is tragically wasted on personal vendettas.

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People who deny the holocaust perpetrated by Hitler must think that the vast majority of modern day Germans are complete idiots. The vast majority of Germans believe that Hitler assisted by other Germans killed massive numbers of Jews as well as others in Gas Chambers as well as other means. The Germans are not holocaust deniers. They have accepted their terrible history. The German government fully accepts responsibility for using Zyklon B to release gaseous hydrogen cyanide on Jews in death chambers at the concentration camps. What advantage do the Germans get by lying about that it did happen? If they are not lying then the holocaust deniers must believe that millions upon millions of Germans are stupid. So which denier theory covers that? Is it the great appeasement of the German government and populace? Or are we back to the grand Jewish plot to deceive the world and their apparent success with convincing the perpetrators that they committed such acts when they did not commit such acts? So which is it appeasement or deception?

Frankly it boggles the mind how holocaust deniers must think that Jews are the most brilliant people that ever existed. They would have had to have concocted and carried out the most ingenious plan ever to have been accomplish throughout human history. Never ever have so many people believed an event that was a complete fabrication. There is ample documentation to support the acquisition of Zyklon B. It consisted of hydrogen cyanide (prussic acid, Blausäure in German, hence B), a stabilizer, and a warning odorant that were impregnated onto various substrates, typically small absorbent pellets, fiber discs, or diatomaceous earth. Zyklon B was stored in airtight containers; when exposed to air, the material released gaseous hydrogen cyanide.

Thousands of American soldiers were eyewitness to the carnage. I have watched them speak about the bodies piled up, the ovens and the death chambers. Germans have admitted to participation in the mundane tasks that were needed to carry out deeds. Many non-Jews also in the camps have attested to the mass homicides they witnessed.

Sorry I just can't believe that Jews are that much smarter than the rest of us. I have to believe the holocaust took place just like history records it. There is plenty of empirical evidence that continues to support the historical record as they test every new claim by the holocaust deniers.

In 1994, the Institute for Forensic Research in Kraków re-examined this claim on the grounds that formation of Prussian blue by exposure of bricks to cyanide is not a highly probable reaction (Amoklauf gegen die Wirklichkeit. Praca zbiorowa; B. Gallanda, J. Bailer, F. Freund, T. Geisler, W. Lasek, N. Neugebauer, G. Spenn, W. Wegner; Bundesministerium fuer Unterricht und Kultur Wien, 1991). Using more sophisticated microdiffusion techniques, they tested 22 samples from the gas chambers, delousing chambers (as positive controls), and living quarters (as negative controls), finding cyanide residue in both the delousing chambers and the ruins of the gas chambers but none in the ruins of the living quarters, thus refuting the Holocaust deniers' claims

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googdonkey,

Amen. What amazes me most about this perception of Jews being these diabolical masterminds bent on world control is that despite their alleged mastery at manipulating events on a worldwide scale, they still haven't managed to conquer the world after having had some 2000 years to succeed. Not very efficient, I’d say. Or, if I were to revert to the conspiracy-theory addled reasoning of folks like Holocaust deniers, I guess it could say that “it’s all part of the plan. Mwuuh-ha-hahaHA!!”

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Very well put LFRAgain and goodDonkey. The truth has to said, even repeated endlessly. The Pope, for his part, did a good deed the other day by denouncing Holocaust denial in no uncertain terms. He's a guy who is hardly a puppet of the Jews, the Masonic Order or whoever is supposedly trying to take over the world this week.

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Reams and REAMS of data.

Oh yes, they certainly have lots of documents, but none proving that 6 million Jews died in the camps and that many of them died in gas chambers. If there was, I'm sure you would have provided it. Instead of spending so much time on the exterminist sites, why don’t you check out the revisionist ones (codoh.com, vho.org). If you are so sure Bishop Williamson is wrong, you could certainly very easily address the simple points he mentions in the interview and prove him wrong. Why don’t you?

The truth is in your face. The piles of corpses at the concentration camps.

Indeed, and Bishop Williamson did say that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews died in the camps. Have you forgotten our discussions from years ago about the American forensics showing no evidence of gassing from any of corpses.

The people who reject this sort of evidence nevertheless cling to the discredited falsehoods of the Leuchters and the Rudolphs.

In other words, the exterminist side simply declares that Fred Leuchter or Germar Rudolf published discredited falsehoods (simply because they do not like their conclusions), and we are expected to believe that.

For whatever reason, Sabiwabi hates the Jews.

No, just the criminals who are wrecking this world. Many are Jews, but not all. And only a handful of Jews are part of this sick group.

Blame Hitler and centuries of European anti-Semitism and not the Jews for creating the monster that Israel has become. Had these not existed there would have been no need to an Israel.

Indeed, we should blame Hitler “for creating the monster that Israel has become”. Jews were living well in Germany and assimilating and very few were interested in moving to Palestine. That is why wealthy Zionists heavily financed Hitler to get him into power.

Finally, I've search for that last big Holocaust debate we had with no success. i presume it is now cyber dust. Too bad as a lot of it could have been useful here in dealing with the mad Bishop and his equal mad supporters.

No, it would not have been of much use to defend your position.

The German government fully accepts responsibility for using Zyklon B to release gaseous hydrogen cyanide on Jews in death chambers at the concentration camps.

Shhhh! Zyklon B turns out to be a poor choice for killing a large number of people. A few days ago, I noticed one poster trying to minimize the Zyklon story and focussing instead on carbon monoxide. You should avoid zyklon if you want to strengthen your argument.

What advantage do the Germans get by lying about that it did happen? If they are not lying then the holocaust deniers must believe that millions upon millions of Germans are stupid.

Well, don’t most Americans believe 9/11 was carried out by 19 Saudis with box cutters?

There is ample documentation to support the acquisition of Zyklon B. It consisted of hydrogen cyanide (prussic acid, Blausäure in German, hence B), a stabilizer, and a warning odorant that were impregnated onto various substrates, typically small absorbent pellets, fiber discs, or diatomaceous earth. Zyklon B was stored in airtight containers; when exposed to air, the material released gaseous hydrogen cyanide.

Wow, you seem to know so much about it. Why didn’t you mention that Zyklon B was use to delouse clothing and linen. The camps did have gas chambers for this purpose and there was a typhus epidemic.

Thousands of American soldiers were eyewitness to the carnage. I have watched them speak about the bodies piled up, the ovens and the death chambers.

Do you happen to know how many people were gassed in the camps liberated by Americans?

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Sigh . . .

In refuting Williamson, I'll start and end simply with tearing down the very basis of his claim that no gassing occurred, namely the Leuchter Report.

” . . . Fred Leuchter or Germar Rudolf published discredited falsehoods (simply because they do not like their conclusions) . . .”

No, Sabiwabi. Their findings were discredited because their results were reached through flawed testing. You know that, I know that, and everyone else knows that.

For an example of proper scientific testing, or more precisely, the testing that proved Leuchter’s research deeply flawed, see the tests conducted by the Institute of Forensic Research:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/report.shtml

Before you waste your time explaining that the IFR is a tool of the Great Jewish Conspiracy™, do know that the argument cuts both ways. And resolve yourself to the fact that the IFR research staff are actually professionally trained in their chosen field, whereas Mr. Leuchter isn’t and never has been.

Lacking this vital cornerstone to his argument, Williamson’s claims possess the same validity and value as yours: None. They’re the imagined what-could-have-beens of people who seem to harbor a great deal of unwarranted animosity against, ahem, “these people.”

Bigotry, no matter how much you try to dress it up with pseudo-science and supposed “reason,” is still bigotry at its core. And quite frankly, the world’s got enough problems to deal with now without you and Williamson trying to peddle this conspiracy crap.

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sabiwabi,

You have written many times that "backers of the Nazis were Jewish", that "top Nazis were Jewish" and that Hitler was 1/2 or 1/4 Jewish.

Sorry, I do not believe you. I have asked you specifically who these top Nazis who you claim were Jewish were. If you cannot simply answer the questions, it stands to reason you don't have the answers and were just saying you do.

You claimed Max Warburg a Jewish banker was backing the Nazis and you even claimed he was living well in nice hotels and traveling freely around Germany through out the war. You were absolutely and completely wrong as he was in the US after he had been forced to sell his bank and emmigrate to the US. In addition, he under no circumstances was "backing" the Nazis. I think that is the reason you refuse to be specific. There are no specifics. You are wrong, plain and simple...

made claims of 200,000 to 300,000 people. What specifically is this fiqure based on?

You have claimed the Nazis were Zionists.

Specifics, please...Who are these people?

You have claimed some of the top Nazis were Jewish.

Specifics, please...Who are these people?

You have claimed Hitler was 1/2 or 1/4 Jewish.

Specifics as to why you have claimed this, please...

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