Hamas fighters seek to restore order in Gaza Strip
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0
likeitis
This is like walking into a restaurant with 50 yen in your pocket and when the owner asks if you have any money, you say "Yes, I sure do!" Not a lie, but COMPLETELY DISHONEST.
Since 1967 the people of Gaza Strip have been 96 percent trapped, and that is not a random number. The only time I know that Gazans were allowed to leave were when the Rafah border crossing and Yasir Arafat International Airport were open to Palestinians. That amounts to a total of 21 months as far as I can find. 501 months since June 1967. That means Gazans have been able to leave 4 percent of the time since the Israelis took over. I guess 96.5 percent trapped just doesn't count.
And I think they will succeed. The choice for Gazans is to suffer oppression peacefully or fight back. All indications point to fighting back, just like so many oppressed peoples around the world have.
Its easy to say its all Hamas's fault the border got closed. But why did Yasir Arafat Int'l get destroyed by the Israelis before Hamas took the stage? I thought the Israelis preferred Fatah! Yet, the Israelis accused them too of weapons smuggling (into their prison).
Actions like this ENSURE groups like Hamas get elected. Frankly, I think the Israeli government knows this.
More and more, wanting the rockets to stop seems more like a handy excuse for the Israeli government, sincere in that desire as the people of Sderot and Ashkelon no doubt are. The people of Gaza are going no where no matter what, and so long as the Gazans are whipped into fighting, the Israelis have handy excuses to keep them penned in.
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rajakumar
Gazans will receive 1000 million US aid from just Saudi Arabia. If I am not sure total GDP of Gaza is about 5 billion USD only,1 billon USD aid from saudi arabia is almost 20 percent of its GDP.
More windfall economic aid coming for Gazan and their very weak economy.
Gaza with richer like in Lebanon after the 2006 hezbollah-israel war.
Gaza exposure to international world media was big,in the past few weeks. They are going get better from this hamas-israel war 2009.
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kinniku
likeitis,
Sigh...before you again attempt to educate others on the history of the region. Again, I respectfully request you actually educate yourself first.
First, Gazans could leave Gaza to go to Egypt pretty much zero percent of the time between 1948 and 1967. In addition, although you seem to obsess about passage to Egypt, you continue to ignore the fact that from 1967, many Gazans made their livings in Israel. So, although they may not having been passing the border to Egypt (which was at war with Israel at the time)they were crossing into Israel...
There is another, more productive choice. Hamas could attempt to negotiate seriously for a true and serious peace. When they do, hopefully Israel will also get with the program and negotiate as well.
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sabiwabi
Boy, I for one sure do feel much more educated after reading kinniku's post, thank you for sharing your "wise counsel" with us. Much appreciated.
But then again, considering how you've defended the Israelis during this last carnage (and past ones), I don't know what to make of your "wise counsel".
With who, the Israelis? Who in their right mind would expect the Israelis to respect their side of a deal, THEY NEVER HAVE! The Palestinians got burnt too many times to trust them again.
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likeitis
Yeah. Been through that. Trouble is, its not Egypt that is imprisoning Gazans TODAY, and has been doing it continuously 96 percent of the time up to TODAY, so bringing up Egypt AGAIN is about as relevant as bring up Pharoah imprisoning the Jews.
Continue to ignore??? I cannot remember hearing that. I cannot remember getting clear evidence of that either. But if you got a source to prove me wrong rather than this bullcrap condescending attitude, bring it on. I got no qualms about adjusting the figure I have presented. But I hope we are talking significant numbers, and not talking about Israelis who settled in Gaza.
Like I said, negotiate a peaceful oppression. Israel has been painfully slow with its baby steps toward freeing and Gaza, yet much quicker in locking them right back up. I am not of the opinion that Israel is earnest about anything it does with regards to the issue. And there is a mountain of evidence backing that up, not least of which is Israeli failure to conform to U.N resolution after U.N. resolution.
I have lost hope on that score. I am more in the territory of "wish" at the moment.
We been through that crap too Kinniku. But you "continue to ignore" the fact that I am one of the few providing factual verifiable evidence here, and I have provided link after link to back it up.
Now, can we get back to a discussion of the facts, and drop this asinine condescending crap?
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kinniku
sabiwabi,
Oops! Somebody is telling fibs again! Could you point out where I have 'defended' the Israelis, please? If you cannot, you should retract or apologize. Not that I am expecting either...
I have specifically talked about both sides needing to get together. You just want to ignore this...
0
kinniku
likeitis,
Unfortunately your lack of balance is showing again...
Both Egypt AND Israel have closed the borders with Hamas...both do not want Hamas to control the borders. Both countries have said this over and over. Yet, you only see Israel as controlling the borders...
Just like in our previous discussions, the fact that you are even aware that Gazans worked in Israel (the most basic of pieces of information) up to the hand-over in 2005 reflects the lack of knowledge that leads me to suggest before attempting to educate others, you should educate yourself...Hey, even Sabiwabi picks at the messenger (me!) but cannot dispute what I have written because it is true...
I also think it is interesting that you attempt to compare the Pharoah Era and Egyptian control of Gaza. The two are completely unrelated and while Egyptian control of Gaza deeply formed and created many of the problems related to Gaza now, the Pharoah has nothing to do with any of it...
You continue to ignore (yes, ignore) that BOTH sides take only baby steps towards peace. What you also seem to ignore is that taking baby steps is not advantagous to the Palestinians where at times it has been for the Israelis. The Palestinians have everything to lose by not negotiating and absolutely nothing to gain. Funny that you seem to want it to continue in this way...Guess it is easy when you don't have to live in Gaza or don't know anyone who does, huh?
Lastly, you are not providing facts in many cases. You are providing opinions which seem not to be based in any reality that resembles Gaza or the Middle East in general. You don't see negotiations as a solution. I do. It seems Hamas agrees with you...look what it has gotten them...
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kinniku
Yes, they never left Sinai...not. The Palestinians are not independently armed now...not. Have the Israelis broken deals etc? Yes. So have the Palestinians. It is only people like you who refuse to see this...
0
timorborder
"Restore control" would be a better description. Specifically, the "control" of HAMAS street thugs over a cowering population. What a life! On one hand you have Israel which seems intent on carrying out a Final Solution on the Palestinian population, while on the other hand you have the HAMAS, an islamic extremist organization who does not really give a XXXXX about the wider Palestinian population.
0
WilliB
Hamas found their uniforms again!
While Israel tried to take them out, they were all "civilians", and duly reported so in the media.
Now, they will be strutting in the streets again, imposing Shariah, and trumpet their "victory" over Israel. How convenient, to be able to morph into civilians any time it gets hot.
0
WilliB
Likeitis:
What are you talking about? Egypt keeps its border to Gazah locked (although it turns a blind eye to the weapons tunnels.
So, if you condem Israel for "imprisoning" the Gazans, then Egypt is guilty of the same.
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AlfGarnett
Hamas was a charitable organisation started with the help of Israeli government funds.
Israel should just obey international law and UN resolutions instead of interfering in other peoples business like.
Of course Hamas has to restore order, the bleeding area is decimated by the genocidal attacks by Israel. Strewth, why is Americans hating Arabs so much, just like their Jewish best friends and that.
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kinniku
Alf,
Yes, it is a true shame that Hamas transformed itself into a violent militant group...charity was and is much more beneficial to the Palestinian cause than the encouragement of more violence...
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wuzzademcrat
Hamas are back to executing Fatah members they suspect of collaborating with Israel. But Hamas supporters in the West will find a way to excuse this, and in the same breath demand that Israel allow these monsters to live among them.
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Molenir
And if only that were true about Hamas. If only they were a charitable organization rather then one dedicated to the violent destruction of Israel.
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likeitis
Could you be any more self-righteous son? You had a bad day?
I was not wrong. I simply did not know. I am not Israeli. I am not Palestinian. I live no where near those places.
I thought we had established a bit of a workable tone. I guess not. I can only take your renewed attitude as a sign you feel you are losing.
So hows come I had to bring up Yassir Arafat Int'l all by myself, eh? I guess that since you did not mention it A LONG time ago during these border and control discussions, you were wrong about it. So come down off your high horse. You are no expert either.
It was a number I calculated. That means it was not random even if you disagree with the inputs. Again, I can only take this attitude to mean you have realized you are fighting a losing battle.
If I said it once, I said it a thousand times: Egypt can do with its border as it likes. So can Israel. But its Israel that has been controlling from the INSIDE of Gaza ie GAZA'S BORDERS NOT ISRAEL'S and that includes GAZA's border with Egypt (as opposed to Egypt's border with GAZA, still controls Gaza airspace and still controls its sea access. All the time except for some really brief periods in narrow capacities. I have said this so many times. I can only take your continued failure to accept it or challenge it with something as proof you these facts are bothering you.
Egypt has only been guilty of closing its very own border since 1967, and that is small. Cannot take issue with that, just as I cannot take issue with Israel closing its own border. But part of the reason Egypt did so was demands by Israel. Demands which Egypt finally ignored when it decided to let in humanitarian aid.
Israel has Gaza closed in on 4 sides and all over top, from the inside. It also does from outside EXCEPT for the little bit that is Egypt's. Israel controls all "legal" exports, INCLUDING what goes to Egypt.
I have not calculated a percentage for Egyptian guilt from since 1967, but needless to say, it would be small. If the year were 1966, I would be railing against Egypt even more than I rail against Israel right now. But last I checked, the year was 2009, and it is Israel in control.
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likeitis
Hmmm...I guess you take a light view of spying and collaboration? Its just a question.
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Helter_Skelter
If Egypt were still occupying Gaza today and Egypt defended itself against Hamas terrorist rocket attacks in exactly the same way Israel did, these posers (no, I didn't forget the t) preaching "genocide" and "massacre" wouldn't have even bothered to click their mouse to the read article. They would have been as indifferent to it as they are to actual genocide occurring around the world. It's only civilian casualties involving Israel or the US they can exploit for political gain.
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AlfGarnett
Helter Skelter: Living a shletered live of ignorance can be bliss until when steps out into the real world like.
Egypt aint attacking and didn'T commit genocide, it was America's beloved Israel, who cannot be criticised, who have unregistered nukes to terrify all Arab nations and who have broken more UN resolution than any other country including Iraq under Saddam. Now tell me MR clever clogs who are the good guys?
0
AlfGarnett
Hamas should be congratulated on trying to restore order , instead of getting revenge for the genocide of its people.
For all the anti terrorist high and mighty US guys, don't forget like, the terrorist IRA's biggest supporters were from USA.The moral high ground aint yours, it aint nobodys really, so don't moralise against us who disagree and wish the Gazans to have peace and prosper.
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likeitis
Your memory is short Helter. If the U.S. were the chief outside funder and supplier of the Egyptian military, you better bet people would pay attention. Every civy Israel kills is a reflection on my country and an added source of worry when Americans travel abroad or walk down their own streets.
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kinniku
likeitis,
Yet, you consistenly pontificate about how the Gazans could not leave Gaza during a period of time when they could. When it is suggested that you educate yourself about the fact that Gazans could in fact leave Gaza before the handover, you get snarkey and ask for 'proof'. Proof of something that one would assume you would have checked before volunteering to tell us how 'trapped' the Gazans were.
I though we agreed you would tone down the 'I know the facts, so just listen to me' when you clearly have not checked the facts. Just slow down and read a bit more before you state absolutes and then when corrected feed educated and grateful as opposed to snarkey.
0
sailwind
Then why don't they?
From the Camp David peace accords in 1978 until 2000 (the latest year for which figures are available), the United States has subsidized Egypt's armed forces with over $38 billion worth of aid. Egypt receives about $2 billion annually--$1.3 billion in foreign military financing and about $815 million in economic support fund assistance --**making it the second largest regular recipient of conventional U.S. military **and economic aid, after Israel.
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/egypt.htm
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likeitis
Because Egypt is not slaughtering civilians? You might want to try including all parts of the equation in you cut and pastes. Or perhaps you did not read the whole post?
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sailwind
Egyptian forces and Hamas police exchanged fire across the volatile Gaza-Egypt border Monday, a day after Egypt resealed the frontier, witnesses said. Defiant Hamas leaders warned they would not permit Gaza's only gate to the world to remain closed for long.
One Palestinian was killed and several dozen people were hurt, including eight who suffered gunshot wounds. It was the first outbreak of violence since Jan. 23, when Hamas militants first toppled the border wall. Monday's firefight erupted around dusk, and occasional gunshots could still be heard after nightfall.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/04/africa/ME-GEN-Palestinians-Egypt-Clash.php
Next?
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likeitis
Well, you should have proved me wrong sooner!
But they were not exactly free were they? They needed a job to go into Israel. And they could not pass through Israel. And technically, they could not stay in Israel either. They were still trapped. Its just their chain was a little longer than I thought. Is that some sort of consolation??? It really does not make think much more of Israel, particularly since it all came to a halt in 93.
You are gonna have to prove that one.
I will present what I have learned as if it is fact, right up until either proven wrong or presented with relevant extra information. Nobody is privy to all the little details, but believe me, I am trying. I know of no other way to proceed without being wishy-washy. And I am not going to be wishy-washy until I am presented with plenty of information to warrant that position. Especially since this board is full of people not bothering to let any fact alter their opinion.
The only thing I will tone down is my responses to you, if you do the same for me. Believe me, I do appreciate the information you provide, even when I don't find all that relevant or fundamentally opinion changing. Its not nearly as basic as you make it out. It does not jump out at me during a search. And a lot of what you have said ONLY YOU have said, even the parts that were totally true.
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likeitis
Sounds like they were all armed Hamas militants, not civilians. Even if not, stray bullets are an entirely different issue than "stray" mortars and bombs hitting designated shelters.
Mountains and molehills. Totally.
This effort to shift blame onto Egypt despite Israel's clear ownership of the lion's share of blame is just spinning our wheels.
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sailwind
Sounds like they were all armed Hamas militants, not civilians. Even if not, stray bullets are an entirely different issue than "stray" mortars and bombs hitting designated shelters.
Mountains and molehills. Totally.
I'm sure this wouldn't warrant your indignation then toward Egypt after all he was only throwing rocks.
In Gaza, a medical worker said that a 21-year-old Palestinian died of his injuries at a hospital in Gaza's Rafah town after being shot in stone-throwing clashes with Egyptian security forces.
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kinniku
likeitis,
Respectfully. I just did and you agreed to it...
The worker program did not come to a complete halt in 93. It did get scaled down as Israelis discovered they could bring in Asians to work for them and the Asians did not try to kill them. This 'not getting killed by your employees' turned out to be a distinct advantage. This is another case in which extremists on the Palestinian side did their own people in...One more advantage was not having to worry about a 'work stoppage' being called by the Palestinian Authority. When things were not going well between the Palestinians and the Israelis, the PA would often prohibit (with violent consequences) Palestinians from going to work in or out of the occupied territories. The new Asian workers did not have these kinds of 'work stoppages'.
I understand the search for knowledge. I just hope your search could be a bit more balanced.
I know you were not directing this comment my way. However allow me to comment on it. Respectfully, Egypt's part in the history and present situation is nothing to sneeze at and is worthy of much more attention than you seem willing to pay to it.
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likeitis
Agreed.
Disagreed. I am much more interested in history if it is continuous up to the present. Egypt renounced all claims to Gaza a long time ago, and they exercise no control over Gaza today except for the same control any country has via sharing a border.
While the desire to not get killed is completely understandable, one has to consider that Israel has responsibility for Gaza whether they like it or not. That scaling down is going to have a huge impact on Gaza, and its going to have consequences later on down the road. And it did.
Still, thanks for the info.
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likeitis
It warrants my indignation. It has it. It has a relevant amount. But since its only one isolated incident, I am going to consider it the fault of the soldier who shot him, rather than a problem with the policy of Egypt. Even if you went that direction, it would be policy created because of problems with Israel far more than unilateral Egyptian policy.
Even if not, the shooting of a rock thrower is a WHOLE lot different than getting women in children killed in hospitals and shelters that are known to be housing women and children, and kill over 600 of them in 3 weeks ending just a couple days ago.
Mountains. Molehills. Indignation divided in like proportion.
0
SuperLib
I guess we'll just have to take them at their word when they tell us the civilian death count.
Oh man, Europe is going to take such a beating on the message board here...
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SuperLib
Really? Israel helped start a charitable organization in Palestine? Cool.
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Madverts
"Oh man, Europe is going to take such a beating on the message board here..."
I'l not sure whether you have a problem with the stance of the EU or not on this issue?
Why should "they" take a beating?
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Molenir
Well, considering the tone of some of the posters here, by refusing Hamas aid, you are committing genocide. Thus the EU is committing genocide in Gaza. lol, just saying Genocide in gaza makes me laugh. How idiotic does one really have to be to actually believe that? From Israel or the EU. If anyone is committing genocide, its the Arabs who are using these people in a proxy war with Israel. Destroying them as a people in order to shape them into a tool to to use against Israel. Now that I would consider genocide, even if not done in the standard form.
0
Helter_Skelter
likeitis
Exactly. Once again, you prove my point. It all about the US. Iran, a known exporter of terrorism, is the chief outside funder and supplier of Hamas terrorists, yet nary a complaint from you or your comrades on the left. It's irrelevant to you. Only that which involves the US or Israel is criticized.. Are you at least starting to get the point here?
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AlfGarnett
Helter Skelter, I start to get the imperssion like, that you enjoy war!! Especially when your favourites is going to win in the death count like.
Why you don't give arabs a chance, too much fox news i reckon.
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Helter_Skelter
When you have something of value to contribute to the discussion, by all means post. Otherwise, give it a rest.
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bishamonten
“We are still ready and capable of firing more rockets. We are developing the range of our rockets and the enemy will face more, and our rockets will hit new targets, God willing,” said Abu Obeida, the spokesman for Hamas’ military wing.”
This is one of the people that works for “Alf’s” charity & I am sure that Palestinians can see just how much good this man & his fellow works have done for Gasa. Though now that the Hamas police are out of hiding & back in their nice uniforms I doubt any Palestinians are likely to say anything negative about Hamas.
But that is a point, how DO WE KNOW that all the dead “civilians” were civilians? WE don’t. Can we have an independent body count of all the dead babies? No we can’t. Hamas today is celebrating a victory while we look on in wonderment at this & ask “what victory?” While I can understand how Hamas can control the civilian population of Gasa through intimidation & indoctrination I cannot understand how anybody outside Gasa can get fooled by these people. Israel hit them hard, as Israel always does, it is Israel’s policy to hit hard & everybody knows that. 10 to 1, sounds about right to me for a lesson. The question now is, are Hamas smart enough to learn that firing stupid little rockets into Israel is a very expensive thing to do? Expensive in human life that is. Not money, the money will come rolling in now, maybe that is the victory that Hamas is celebrating.
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