Bomb attacks in Uganda kill 64 watching World Cup final
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0
nandakandamanda
Militant Islam in an aggressive, expansive role yet again.
They are not victims of discrimination and aggression as they like to pretend in their recruiting DVDs.
These people are predatory aggressors, IMHO.
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VelvetRosetta
Incredible how these ppl operate and think, one could say they are not human and have no heart, they know of hate only..
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smartacus
Cowards.
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samwatters
The Islamic involvement in the World Cup bombing has succeeded in doing something I never thought possible; it has turned me into a supporter of all policies that supress Islam.
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TumbleDry
Happy? What the hell?
It's part of the plan. They want western societies to turn themselves against all Muslims to grow even bigger. Some westerners are just to happy to prove their rants.
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samwatters
"It's part of the plan. They want western societies to turn themselves against all Muslims to grow even bigger. Some westerners are just to happy to prove their rants."
This comment makes no sense.
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VelvetRosetta
I was thinking the same and read his comment a few times but didn't get it, I thought it was just me...TumbleDry...mind explaining?
0
mikehuntez
And now muslims everywhere are safe from the dangers of Soccer!!
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TumbleDry
samwatters:VelvetRosetta:
I was making a reference to "They are not victims of discrimination and aggression as they like to pretend in their recruiting DVDs."
they are not victims but by bombing whatever they can, comments like "it has turned me into a supporter of all policies that supress Islam." pop out. Your are playing the terrorist game.
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VelvetRosetta
I just think it is a bit off, the way you say WESTERNERS, AS IF WE ARE THE ONLY ONE APPALLED BY THESE ACTS...many share and express the same views it has nothing to do with country or culture...it has to do with humanity in general,and its rights...
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nandakandamanda
The responsible inner core see this as an attack against 'Western societies'. This is their description of their enemy.
"Some Westerners are happy to prove their rants" by Tumbledry should really have read something like, "Some people are happy to fall into their trap and prove their ranting true..." you reckon, VelvettaRosa?
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VelvetRosetta
"Some people are happy to fall into their trap and prove their ranting true..." you reckon, VelvettaRosa?
Of course it is easy to fall into their "traps" seeing how easy they make the rants on anyone who has a heart and a mind...
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nandakandamanda
That's it, isn't it!
They have cunningly set traps in the river and good, well-meaning, ordinary fish people like us get caught in them.
Boo, hiss, to these loathsome 'people'.
0
Madverts
samw,
" it has turned me into a supporter of all policies that supress Islam."
I know what you mean. Why the hell aren't non-radical muslims out in the streets to decry the horrors radical elements of their sect vomit up on a near-hourly basis?
After the hullabaloo for a Koran in the toilet and a few satirical cartoons, nobody in their right mind can see there isn't a serious need for the muslims to stand up to their own...
0
MistWizard
It makes perfect sense. I will explain anyway: You were adopted into the Jones family. Your neighbors are the Smiths and they annoy you. If you want to get the Joneses to rise up against your neighbors, you first get your neighbors to attack because otherwise, your family wont have it. So you go paint on their cars one night "Hello from the Joneses!" When the Smiths knock on the door for an explanation, before your adopted dad can even deny anything, be sure to yell "Dad, let's paint the Smith's house tonight!".
Just because someone claims to be a Muslim does not mean they really are. The people who carried out these attacks are not Muslim no matter how many times they claim to be and no matter how many times they talk about Allah. They are just sick people who enjoy violence and they want more. And I beleive you want more too. In the end, you are not much different from them sam.
0
sailwind
I somehow doubt sam plans on strapping on a suicide belt and killing innocent folks watching soccer Mister Wizard.
0
Tahoochi
This is not only sick, but extremely frightening to think that it could happen almost anywhere at anytime. Who started this damn "war on terror"??? ..... oh yeah, I remember now.
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SuperLib
It's not just about sick people. There is something about Islam where it's able to be perverted and used to manipulate others to an extent that we're not seeing with other religions. They aren't just sick people who happen to use Islam when they could have just as easily used something else.
They obviously don't represent the vast majority of Muslims out there, in fact they most often kill other Muslims more than anyone else, and I agree that they don't follow modern Islam...BUT...I won't necessarily say that Islam is an innocent victim in all of this. You can't just remove it from the equation.
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nandakandamanda
Tahoochi, this did not start with anyone's decaration of war on terror.
The terror came first, and those roots go way back. Then came Beirut 1983, the original first bombing of World Trade Center 1993, and attacks on US Embassies in Dar Es Salaam and Nairobi 1998, for example.
The war on it was a gradual response, fully articulated by G W Bush after 9/11.
0
grafton
TumbleDry at 12:58 PM JST - 12th July
“It's part of the plan. They want western societies to turn themselves against all Muslims to grow even bigger. Some westerners are just to happy to prove their rants.”
samwatters at 03:28 PM JST - 12th July
“This comment makes no sense.”
Sorry Sam but it does, though Mistwizard’s Smith’s and Jones’ example goes off little too far off the subject to really help. Try imagining a small group of terrorists that don’t have much money or equipment, and very probably almost no access to the media so for the most part the people are not that interested in them. Normally the first target would be public transport so that the people are inconvenienced and the economy damaged. The police (and maybe the army) now need to fight back against the bombers and in so doing they become progressively more oppressive with each bombing which in time turns the people against not the bombers that started all this but the authorities who have no choice but to cause the people daily pressure. By trying to counter the bombers the authorities have pushed the people into the arms of the terrorists. This is the primary reason that Western countries have tried so hard to avoid racial profiling at places like airports. The sheeple are for the most part simple and perhaps a little stupid and innocent Muslim travellers being treated “badly” at Western airports would get reported as racism in the press which would feed antagonism toward the West. Which is exactly what the terrorists want. It’s a bit like sending cargo ships full of do gooders into a dangerous place where they might get hurt and then saying “look what those bad people did to these nice do gooders”. The simple minded gullible will always fall for this sort of trap. If things are planned well they shouldn’t clash with other major news stories such as the world cup, news of which might swamp the news of the bombing or embargo busting ship. The ultimate idea is to turn the protector into the oppressor in the eyes of the simple minded. Granted it does help when the press help with this by ignoring the human rights of those that are blown up by the terrorist and only promote the “claimed” grievances and human rights of the terrorists.
The idea behind the Ugandan bombing is to turn the Ugandan people against the Ugandan government sending peace keeping forces into Somalia and if it works the crazies in Somalia with have that much more of a free hand once the Ugandan peace keeping troops are pulled out.
So, perhaps not the totally pointless killing that many might see it being.
0
PeaceWarrior
Actually Madverts, much of the rest of the world is wondering the same thing about US citizens. Why aren't they decrying the horrors their successive administrations cause on a daily basis in their wars of occupation and their supposedly endless war on terror?
I am not defending radical terrorists or non-radical Muslims' ineffectual responses to their actions, but I am also not about to let you forget that they are not the only ones acting like wolves and sheep.
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elbudamexicano
I wonder why the terrorists in Somalia feel Uganda is an enemy??? RIP poor dead folk just enjoying the end of the World Cup in South Africa.
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MistWizard
I did not say he was the same. I said he was not much different. At least someone with a suicide belt has the courage to die. You can't say the same for a guy opening the bomb bay doors. And a keyboard warrior of all measures to suppress Islam has even less. To quote Sam again:
0
grafton
I am always curious about how Western cities (along with many in Islamic counties) will find their streets full of angry protesting Muslims when somebody publishes a cartoon of Muhammad or does something like try flushing a copy of the Koran down a toilet. Yet when people claiming to represent Islam do the most sick and outrageous things in the name of Islam we only ever hear a few muted disclaimers who always mange to make excuses for the killers at the same time as half heartedly denouncing them. Surely it is a far worse insult to Islam to kill innocent football supporters or torture to death a woman by throwing stones at her than publish a cartoon or the act of a single stupid soldier who put the Koran in the toilet? Why is it we never see Islam’s outrage at the misuse of their religion by these killers? Or are we to assume a tacit agreement exits in Islam for what is done in their name? What I want to see this week are the streets of many cities full of Muslims demanding that these Uganda killers stop using Islam as an excuse for their crimes. Can’t see it happening some how. So I will make my judgement of Islam by what the Muslins do as well as what they don’t do.
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MistWizard
My explanation was dumbed down for what I think are obvious reasons. You gave a great example, but do you really think it will be understood?
To add to what you said: Also the people get fed up with the gov for failing to protect them.
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limboinjapan
PeaceWarrior:"Actually Madverts, much of the rest of the world is wondering the same thing about US citizens. Why aren't they decrying the horrors their successive administrations cause on a daily basis in their wars of occupation and their supposedly endless war on terror?"
First before anyone says anything I am not American
Now the answer to your question is that your question is irrelevant because Muslims are not a country but a religion with a few "denominations" (for lack of a better word) and it is common to heard the Muslim community complain in unison when they feel slighted or offended but as remarked very quite when it comes to denouncing these sort of attacks!
As for the USA it is a country and they may not be internally denouncing what their government has done or is doing but if you read or listen to any news coverage you will hear plenty of objection, denouncing and outrage by much of the rest of the western and other world leaders and religious leaders and population in general!
So as I wrote at the start of this what the USA has done or is doing and what the USA population think or does is totally irrelevant!
So I will repeat what has often been said or written when these things happen, Where is the condemnation by the major leader of this supposed "peaceful" religion?
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Madverts
"Actually Madverts, much of the rest of the world is wondering the same thing about US citizens. Why aren't they decrying the horrors their successive administrations cause on a daily basis in their wars of occupation and their supposedly endless war on terror?"
Bush is toast, you're going to have to accept that a lot of Americans didn't like and some even strongly protested Bush Co's demented foreign policy.
When Americans are putting on suicide vests and blowing themselves up in crowded market places then I'll perhaps understand your point of view.
Muslims need to sort their own house out.
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sailwind
Someone with a suicide belt that targets innocent people on purpose has no courage and is a nothing more than a cold blooded murderer. This is nothing admiral about it and nothing couragous either. It is someone who has lied to himself that his cause is so important that he can give up what we all share no matter what religion or culture, our basic humanity to other human beings. The minute they strap on the belt is the minute they cease to be human and deserve nothing but scorn not 'intellectual analysis' as to what horrid western imperialism had 'forced them' to target people watching a soccer match in uganda.
0
grafton
MistWizard at 10:25 PM JST - 12th July
Sorry, no insult was intended. I just really couldn’t understand why you needed the adopted child bit, that seemed to add a confusion. I suspect that we would agree that what has happened in Uganda fits exactly into what we both see as a means to an end structure. What was once called the Marxist theory of revolution. The best working model of this would be Cuba where it went like clockwork. I do however have some doubts about how it will eventually work on a global scale, a country is one thing, but globally there are just so many variables. Sadly the press are going to simplify this to Ugandan troops in Somalia and then lose interest quickly moving on to some new outrage and not relate them as being part of a greater whole.
“My explanation was dumbed down for what I think are obvious reasons. You gave a great example, but do you really think it will be understood?”
You understood. Thank you. And don’t be so cruel, how will anybody ever learn if we don’t help? Though we might seldom agree on the help.
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yabits
First of all, there is some statistical self-delusion going on here. The words "to an exent...with other religions" imply that because nearly ALL religions at one time or other have had radical adherents prone to violence, and because among them at the current time it appears that Islam has more incidents of radicals acting out, that it follows that there must be something wrong with the religion itself.
That is terribly wrong-headed thinking. There must be something wrong with America to produce people so many people who think that way. (Sarcasm intentional.)
If there was really a problem with Islam itself, the violence would be on a vastly greater scale than it currently is, given Islam's hundreds of millions of followers.
The perpetrators of violence are hoping that the self-deluded and ignorant among the Americans (and other westerners) WILL indeed take the attitude that it's Islam itself that is a problem -- and will be provoked into making more attacks on the religion. And that road starts, of course, with the attitude that "Islam is a problem" becoming more accepted as a rational response.
The more that attitude takes hold, the greater the case can be made that it is the United States and its allies that are the greatest threat to peace. (This is nothing new: from the days of its founding, history is replete with examples of the American M.O. of justifying the slaughter, exile and imprisonment of others to get something it wanted. Today, we do it mainly by proxy.)
So "freedom of religion" touted by Americans becomes a la Orwell's Animal Farm "Freedom of religion as WE believe you should be practicing it."
To the extent that the sense of victimhood and grievances are felt by people living in the Islamic countries towards U.S. attitudes and policies, it can just as easily be argued that the tenets of Islam have prevented violence on a far greater scale than might otherwise occurred had Muslims decided to adopt a more western-style approach and attitude.
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PeaceWarrior
The point of my comment is not to compare a country and a religion limboinjapan, the point is to compare the reaction of people who are faced with violence done in their name, be it by a religion or an administration.
You are writing about plenty of objections, denouncing and outrage by much of the rest of the western world leaders, religious leaders and this has no relevance to my comparison since it was already intrinsically understood in my initial post so it's not really relevant, is it? So, let's just say that we agree on that one.
But of the population in general? The population in general does not go out and protest about what the horror their government inflicts on others. I could go on as to the reasons why they don't but it would just confuse the issue here. When Madverts screams about:
He is in fact accusing them of the same crime his countrymen are guilty of. THAT has all the relevance in the world. He doesn't see the absurdity of his demands when he, and his countrymen can't abide by what they preach.
You have never said truer words.
hahaha, Thanks for the laugh.
0
samwatters
@MistWizard. Fear not, I have no intention of strapping on a bomb and hurting people or stoning women for imaginary crimes or organizing a riot because someone dsiagrees with me like those "courageous" souls who are "willing to die." No, this "keyboard warrior" has just had it up to the proverbial here with cowardly acts of violence directed at people who are not connected with their grievances. And when I say "any policy that suppresses Islam," I am referring to decisions and rules made by rational people who are tying to protect themselves from this irrational delusional religion. If I were president, I would never had entered Iraq and would leave Afghanistan tomorrow. But no Muslim would get a visa to the United States unless chaperoned by approved personnel. Muslim apologists, however, are welcome to share their views. Oh, and one more thing; my name IS Sam Watters. To write your real name on a post takes at least a little courage. I doubt MistWizard appears on your birth certificate.
0
Sarge
Seriously, what the heck is wrong with some people?
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PeaceWarrior
Non-radical Muslims do not put on suicide vests to blow themselves up in crowded market places, so what's your point?
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PeaceWarrior
Look at that, we do agree on something after all.
0
grafton
MistWizard at 10:18 PM JST - 12th July
“ At least someone with a suicide belt has the courage to die.”
Sorry, but you know perfectly well that this is simply not true. The people that go out with the bomb strapped to them are invariably indoctrinated to the point that courage has nothing at all to do with what they are thinking. This is like saying a rocket has courage. What we need to be looking at here are the people that send these bombers out. They are the cowardly manipulators that kill innocents and then send off emails to the press about how they are being forced to die in defence of some idea. Think about how many times we have seen in the press the whole biography of a suicide bomber after he (or she) has killed x number of people whose names we never get to know. Who dies as a bomber and who dies as a victim mean nothing to these people, they only care about how much publicity is generated. I have no feelings one way or the other about the actual bomber, if anything at all they are as much a victim as the people their bomb killed. But there is no courage in what they did.
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SuperLib
Well said. When someone intentionally blows the head off an innocent child in the name of Islam I think it's important to use words like "courageous."
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limboinjapan
OH for crying out loud!
Why is it every time some thing like this happens there are always a bunch of yahoos that turn it into a USA did this, USA did that garbage.
The USA has nothing to do with this!
Here are mostly a bunch of everyday Ugandans just minding their own business and some nut case blows them up!
Nothing to do with the USA or USA policies, Uganda isn't even on the USA's good side not even close to an ally!
Uganda is in Somalia not with the USA or even the UN but with the African Union Mission in Somalia!
When cartoons of Mohamed surfaced every major religious leader in the world called it a provocation and more or less condemned them but I saw very little condemnation by any major Islamic group or leader of the violence that followed.
And again in this case all the defender of Islam are going to some how put this on the USA and in someway western society, but not a word will be heard from any major player in Islam condemning this act of barbarism!
The facts are that the Islamist war in Somalia has spilled over into neighboring Kenya and in a vain effort to placate this radical movement the Kenyan government is now advocating the legal use and acceptance of Islamic law in a country that is only 10% Muslim and this to the outrage of the other 90% who feel that it is not fair that many of there old tribal laws were not acceptable but because of the threat of terror Islam is.
Uganda is not the only target in Africa, many other countries that have been Muslim for centuries have been targeted for years and it is known locally as the Arabisation, using pressure by many means including violence to force these mostly moderate Muslims into wearing Ha-jibs or burqas when for centuries they have worn colourful clothing and many more forced changes.
NO this has NOTHING to do with US policy or even western policy this was and is UGANDA and it is time to stop making excuses and placating Muslims and start demanding that the Muslim community and leaders make a real effort to come out and condemn these acts!
0
grafton
limboinjapan at 11:57 PM JST - 12th July
“it is time to stop making excuses and placating Muslims and start demanding that the Muslim community and leaders make a real effort to come out and condemn these acts!”
A simple and to most an obvious truth. Well said.
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nandakandamanda
Quote, last line of the article: “Uganda is one of our enemies. Whatever makes them cry, makes us happy. May Allah’s anger be upon those who are against us,” Sheik said.
Aw, come on. You attacked a group of football supporters, not 'Uganda'. Lunatic. If you can say that, Sheik Issa, then so can I. "Whatever makes you cry, makes me happy. May Allah's anger be upon you, Issa."
But that won't bring these innocent people back to the life that Allah in his mercy gave them in the first place.
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Madverts
"I am referring to decisions and rules made by rational people who are tying to protect themselves from this irrational delusional religion"
I find it hard to believe the entire sect is the blood-thirsty-hate-filled animals that caused the existence of this thread's daily carnage, but I can sure understand people have simply had enough if the gratuetous violence coming from some of Islam's followers.
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VelvetRosetta
stop making excuseslimboinjapan..WELL PUT..I have no idea where ppl get these ludicrous ideas, and instead of being upset by the actions taking place they are actually pointing fingers in the wrong direction...lol..they are no better than allah and brain washing ppl. Trying to convince others that the US is involved so anyone who knows little on this subject could easily fall into their beliefs..ignorantly!To commit suicide and someone actually has the galls to say that person has courage! unbelievable...
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Madverts
"Well said. When someone intentionally blows the head off an innocent child in the name of Islam I think it's important to use words like "courageous." "
I guess it's only "courageous" when compared to American foreign policy, or something like that. I have a hard time understanding these retorts instead of accepting the simple fact that beggars belief for most of us, which is non-radical Islam's silence in regards to the blood-letting done in their name.
The US may have broken places like Iraq, but at least there is an American pretense behind all the corporate greed of helping these people better themselves after the regime changes, despite radical Islam's best attempts to touch off a civil war in a number of places.
When "normal" muslims are taking to the street to decry al-Qaida and all the other wanabees, then I'll accept they aren't actually their own enemy.
You can't call a suicide bomber courageous when people are being killed for watching a football match. It's just wrong.
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samwatters
"I find it hard to believe the entire sect is the blood-thirsty-hate-filled animals that caused the existence of this thread's daily carnage"
Good point, Madverts. I agree but I have yet to see/hear any Muslim condemn the violence of another Muslim.
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SuperLib
Yawn. Muslims kill innocent in Africa and all you you have to say is that the US is the greatest threat to world peace. Talk about a distraction.
Let's recap. MistWizard gives the crazy notion that there are no people who protest the actions of the US government. Another person says the US is the greatest threat to world peace. Muslims kill other Muslims and others say it will play into the racism that Americans might think there is a problem with radical forms of Islam.
You guys simply have no spine. You want to mitigate all terrorist actions as a way to avoid dealing with it. A Muslim terrorist group killed Muslims. If you're unable to tackle that reality head-on then you're just a coward.
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yabits
Is it Uganda that is claiming that Islam itself is a problem?
The rhetoric that is being directed against Muslims in general is not originating in Uganda.
Islam, and innocent Muslims, are very much victims of the cowardly bombing. It is largely American arrogance that adds to the victimhood by deligitimizing the steps (as revealed by the words "make a real effort") made taken the Muslim community to condemn this kind of violence.
The simple fact is that Muslims everywhere condemn it!
0
Madverts
"Now you guys are just making stuff up. To say that there aren't a very large core of people who openly protest the US government's actions, even fanatically when George Bus is mentioned"
I'm not sure who Mist Wizard is really defending here. If Amerians were donning suicice vests and blowing up fellow Americans at the market in response to US foregin policy, would this be deemed as "courageous", too?
0
HonestDictator
More news about this type of terrorism, but still no Islamic group has claimed responsibility on this. Well lets wait another 20~30 years and see how the Islamic "peace" movement turns out in other countries like the UK and other Euro states.
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Madverts
"The simple fact is that Muslims everywhere condemn it"
Some scholars are, and it's probably not given the coverage of a car-bomb, I'll admit.
It the hoardes I see rampaging accross the world because of a cartoon or of a koran in the toilet that strike me as bizarre, in the total absence of similar uproar in regards to muslim acts of terrorism....
0
SuperLib
It really is insane. Intentionally blow up people watching a soccer game into a thousand pieces and instead of condemning it, all some people can do is try their best to find something even worse (even made up at that) to make a baby killer look better. They literally took a group of innocent people coming together watch a soccer game and murdered them on purpose. And some people think, "Hey, how can I turn this action into criticism of the US and the West in general?!" It's disgusting how they will shield terrorists because of their personal obsession with other people.
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Madverts
Honest,
The Somali Islamist group al-Shabab has said it is "very happy" about the twin blasts which hit the Ugandan capital Kampala on Sunday, killing 74 people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/africa/10602791.stm
Although they haven't fessed up as yet.
Jeez they murder becuase of football, the Paris - Dakar is now held in south America, music's a no-no, jokes are forbidden.....
What do these "people" actually aspire too?
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PeaceWarrior
Funny, this yahoo asks politely that you read the posts again. The simple point is to show the hypocrisy of Madverts to ask of non-radical Muslims to do something that he, and his countrymen can't do. You don't like it, tough luck. USA is not the point as a government here, just to point that out because you don't seem to understand that part of the post.
Why? You don't like it when I don't behave like you'd like me to behave? If you read the posts again, all of them, you'll see that I am not excusing anyone, I even said so, here's the quote:
But look at what Madverts is saying about Muslims:
And then having samwatters agree:
Kind of harsh, even borderline violent comments, wouldn't you say? And I am sure that several people reading what Madverts has to say about Muslims actually agree with him. This is quite sad actually. Non-radical Muslims are just like you. They just want to live their lives in peace. That's all they want to do.
Respect people and they will usually respect you. Call them blood-thirsty-hate-filled animals and that's exactly the kind of relationship you'll end up having with these people. Call them yahoos and you'll end up with another kind of relationship altogether.
Another point. Which one of you actually reads Arabic? If you don't, then I suggest you either learn or get a friend to help you search the Internet to see if really, really there is no outrage. In some of your responses, not just you limbo, but a lot of other JT readers, if it didn't happen in English, then it simply didn't happen. There's a whole world out there, don't say they aren't outraged by these attacks when you can't even read their comments... It's your failing, not theirs. Have a look at THEIR newspapers and I am certain that you'll find the equivalent of JT with people commenting on these attacks.
I actually agree with most of what you wrote in your post about Uganda by the way, limbo.
0
Madverts
"The simple point is to show the hypocrisy of Madverts to ask of non-radical Muslims to do something that he, and his countrymen can't do."
Who and what are my country-men, and what should I or we be doing exactly?
Fundie muslims blow up a rugby club and a restaurant where people gathered to watch a football match, and you want to make this about me and my alledged hypocrisy? Heh, I can't believe you guys sometimes.
The point has been made over and over again in regards to why some of us demand that muslims do more to stop the mindless carnage comitted in the name of their sect, and of course by adherents to the sect.
I have long held the opinion the so-called War on Terror has done more to exacberate the problem in some respects, but blaming Madverts or the US for the acts of incomprehensible muslim/muslim bloodshed is beyond me...
0
Madverts
"Respect people and they will usually respect you. Call them blood-thirsty-hate-filled animals and that's exactly the kind of relationship you'll end up having with these people."
You might try reading my post again too - I specificaly went out of my way to say that I refused to believe all muslims condone this behaviour.
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samwatters
"Kind of harsh, even borderline violent comments, wouldn't you say?" No, not really. But even if the comments are harsh, they are not backed up with violence.
"Call them blood-thirsty-hate-filled animals and that's exactly the kind of relationship you'll end up having with these people." Baloney. I've been called all kinds of mean nasty things---even by people on this board!---and have never sought revenge one way or the other. Civilized people don't do that.
"Another point. Which one of you actually reads Arabic? If you don't, then I suggest you either learn or get a friend to help you search the Internet to see if really, really there is no outrage" I don't care what Muslims are writing to other Muslims. I want to know why when someone draws a picture of the fictional prophet Mohammed thousands of Muslims swarm the streets but when a Muslim group bombs a market or a Muslim woman is sentenced to be stoned nobody makes a peep.
I sincerely appreciate your willingness to debate this issue but at the same time I believe your compassion is misguided.
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PeaceWarrior
I'm not blaming you of "acts of incomprehensible muslim/muslim bloodshed" and if that's your understanding of my comments, then it's going to be a long night.
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Madverts
You seem to have a problem with me calling the authors of the title of this thread "blood-thirsty-hate-filled animals". I'm not sure why.
If you're not going to read people's posts before calling them out, then I agree, I don't have enough beer in the fridge for this one.
0
limboinjapan
yabits:"Is it Uganda that is claiming that Islam itself is a problem? The rhetoric that is being directed against Muslims in general is not originating in Uganda."
Your right: It is UGANDA AND THE REST OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD asking where is the Muslim outrage!!!
And Again you go into this US this US that!
And AGAIN I will ask the question WHAT DOES THE USA HAVE TO DO WITH THIS! IT IS UGANDA!
And your comment "The simple fact is that Muslims everywhere condemn it!"
I just don't see it please post some quotes from a powerful Iman or other Islamic leader! But them I don't know if you are Muslim but you seem very keen on somehow making this about the USA and adding to the justification.
On one hand you allude to condemning this act but in the same breath you point to some sort of justification!
You can't have it both ways!
And again I am not American and definitely not a fan or supporter or US policy!
But I have lived in Africa and have many friends there and I know what is really going on and the forced Arabisation of the Muslim communities in places like Senegal, Côte d'Ivoire, Burkina Faso, Nigeria and Tanzania through intimidation and violence! Is this also to be blamed on the US and the west?
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Madverts
" I want to know why when someone draws a picture of the fictional prophet Mohammed thousands of Muslims swarm the streets but when a Muslim group bombs a market or a Muslim woman is sentenced to be stoned nobody makes a peep."
I think they're saying non-radical muslims are allowed to be exonerated from denouncing the actions of their fellow muslims because of US foreign policy. I think.
Maybe there's another explication....
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PeaceWarrior
Thanks samwatters. Compassion is kind of my middle name and I just can't help it. If I spoke, read and wrote Arabic, I'd be on their boards and doing the same thing. Calling it a night.
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samwatters
Have a good night, PeaceWarrior and the rest of you brave souls who are debating this topic. Our willingness to discuss issues and disagree is an example and inspiration for those who live in societies where debate is not allowed.
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HonestDictator
Nothing wrong with having compassion, but there is a time when one has to say, "We won't back down or comprimise on this position." Especially when a group of people aim to harm others under the guise of "religion".
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yabits
I am not Muslim, but I grew up in a community in the US that has the highest concentration of Muslims in the nation -- a non-Muslim among many Muslims.
What IS about the western mind and viewpoint -- and the US leads the western world -- is this tendency to want Muslims to bow to how the West believes they should express their outrage. That, and the attempt to put the blame on Islam itself.
If the finger was pointed to religious ferver and religious fanaticism -- regardless of the religion -- I could agree. But to blame Islam itself? Ridiculous.
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yabits
Non-radical muslims do not believe the people who perpetrate the acts are their "fellow muslims" any more than Christians have to feel guilty about the claim that Jim Jones was a "fellow Christian," or all Italians about the Red Brigade. The average Muslim has no connection with these crazy terrorists at all, any more than they should have felt special condemnation was needed on their part for IRA terrorism.
On the other hand, when a westerner publicly attacks their religion, that IS an affront to all Muslims.
The nationals involved in this act of terrorism were/are Somalis. You trying to claim that the US never was militarily involved with Somalia or their arch-enemy Ethiopia? Apparently one of the perpetrators was American.
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yabits
It is unfortunate how some people will use the blood of innocent victims to shield themselves by pretending that the event has no connection to anything else in the world or in history.
My criticism of the US (as leader of the west) in this thread has limited itself to the tendency of those deluded Americans who want to believe that Islam itself is part of the problem (and have expressed it in those words), as well as the hypocrisy of expecting innocent Muslims to behave in a way that the average sanctimonious and self-righteous American never would.
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yabits
Really? You genuinely can't understand that the vast majority of Muslims do not regard acts of terrorism as "Muslim acts?" That the average person in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, or Turkey (etc.) has no connection with these whatsoever.
It's like that documentary (that freed an innocent person from death row) where the cops and DA insist the guy deserved the strictest punishment because he felt "no remorse" whatsoever. (The reason he felt no remorse was because he had nothing to do with the crime!)
Yet you seem to expect innocent-yet-devout Muslims to condemn anything anyone claiming to be Muslim does as the price they must pay in order to expres outrage at direct attacks and slander against their entire religion. That is truly bizzare.
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limboinjapan
Well @Yabits I grew up in a with the largest North African and west African community in NA and have lived in North, West and East Africa including Uganda and have many friends in all those places My best friend back home and also the former manager of my business is from Senegal and the son of an Iman and he himself will tell you that, the radical Arabisation (as they themselves call it) of Islam in Africa has spread through intimidation and violence and that his own father now a fairly old man has tried to stand against it but has received little or no backing from any of the major player.
His own mother has never worn a Ha-jib but always bright coloured Senegalese traditional Muslim clothing but today as a women in her 70's is frightened to go out due to fear or being attacked by these "radicals".
In Tanzania on the island of Zanzibar the Muslims have virtually chased and bullied all those who do not agree with there view from the island and are now trying to push those same views on the rest of the country and again the leader of the Muslim community are silent, I have already written about Kenya so won't repeat it, Nigeria well just read the news.
As for Uganda they have taken a stance of freedom for all and have welcomed many Somalis and offered them what they thought was safety but again the coward and barbarians cannot leave them alone and kill and maim people indiscriminately and again we will hear nothing for the major player in Islam and again we will hear from many other how all this has something to do with west and the USA.
But most everything I has written above has been going on for many more years than the so-called war on terror and has been slowly creeping in to these places for more then 20 years.
They first showed up as Saudi charities then came the "conservatives" and once established came the so-called "radicals" they have even called for the silencing of one of the most beautiful voices in Africa that of Youssou N'Dour who has so often sung about the greatness of Islam and of the prophet.
Now they are not content on terrorizing their own so they must terrorize the rest, but again we will hear nothing from the leader of the so-called moderate Muslims only more garbage that all this is due to the west.
You and other have still not told me or anyone else how this bombing in Uganda has any connection with the war on terror were does blowing up people in a country not even remotely connected to that war have any bearing on things?
Yes in a way the blame is on Islam but not the religion itself but on it's leaders, if JUST ONE OR TWO of the more powerful leaders of the two majors sects would publicly stand up and condemn this and other acts of barbarism then maybe things could change, but all I hear is silence and excuses.
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limboinjapan
Yabits:"The average Muslim has no connection with these crazy terrorists at all, any more than they should have felt special condemnation was needed on their part for IRA terrorism."
Again you make statements that have no bearing on Uganda and avoided all the main points, as for this quote above you forgot to mention that every major Christian leader including the Catholic leaders continuously condemned IRA attacks and very vocally.
I am not asking that every Muslim stand up an protest these attacks (though that would be nice along with non-Muslims) what I am asking is that THE MAJOR LEADERS of the Muslim community do just as they do when innocent Muslims are killed by US bombings or when they feel the west or any other non-Muslim has insulted Islam scream like mad!
What is so hard in that why can't hey just openly condemn this attack in Uganda and others?
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SuperLib
Madverts isn't American. Neither is limboinjapan. I'm an American who has said time and time again that terrorists do not represent the vast majority of Muslims, in fact they most often kill Muslims, not Westerners.
I took exception to 2 comments. The first was calling the suicide bomber "courageous" and the second was saying that the US is the biggest threat to world peace. One is delusional and the other represents a man who obviously turns every terrorist attack into US criticism.
If you're going to blast "American thinking" then you should at the very least actually speak to Americans who are giving that "deluded" point of view, otherwise your comments seem like pre-written propaganda that you drop into any situation that references terrorism regardless of the case at hand. If you're criticizing misguided condemnation then perhaps you start by giving your own a rest.
Like I said, terrorists aren't using real Islam. A vast majority of Muslims to not support it. But you'd be throwing out a large piece of evidence by thinking that Islam isn't playing a part in terrorism. There is something about that specific religion that makes it possible for large groups of its followers to be manipulated into killing innocents, more so than all other religions combined. Maybe real Islam is such a total commitment that it creates a mindset that can be manipulated by false leaders. Who knows. But you can't just say that Islam isn't part of the problem overall.
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nandakandamanda
limboinjapan, excellent post!
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Tahoochi
I find this conversation very interesting. Limboinjapan, I've learned a lot about this situation just by reading your comments... very informative. Thank you. A few points/questions I'd like to raise though:
1) This article states that an al-Shabab commander Issa refused to confirm or deny that al-Shabab was responsible for the bombings. But he did say this: “Uganda is one of our enemies. Whatever makes them cry, makes us happy. May Allah’s anger be upon those who are against us,” ...now I may be taking this comment too literally, but to me, this is a comment made by somebody who is not responsible for these bombings. This attack still could have been made by anyone, and not necessarily Somali terrorists, no?
2) This is the world cup of soccer; a world-wide event which draws in crowds from MANY countries around the world. It was no coincidence that there were Americans among the victims at the restaurant mentioned in the article, which could mean that the motive(s) for this attack may not necessarily have been domestic, but international.
3) So why are the "moderate" Muslims not standing up to condemn these acts of terror? To me, it's just one simple reason: They don't want to be killed.
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limboinjapan
Tahoochi: Well to answer your first point "al-Shabab" has officially taken responsibility for the attack now.
As for your second point I know the area and places and they are not places often frequented by Americans or many westerners for that fact, they are however located in an area frequented by Somalis, I would speculate the American was a bonus for these animals!
Your third point is very good, but I am more interested in the internationally powerful Imans to make a stand and I would be surprised if they have any such fears seeing they are just like most major leaders very well protected.
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SuperLib
and
I don't think we really have the kind of access or exposure to how much condemnation is going on. I'm sure that 99% of the people in Uganda are outraged at the bombings and I'm sure there are quite a few Muslim leaders in that country as well as others (especially in the West, where Muslims don't want the black eye) who are condemning it as we speak. They just aren't getting front page exposure.
On a message board like this we have those who do nothing but condemn the West no matter where the terrorist attack is and it kind of stands out when you have a story like this where the West isn't involved. I think those people tend to mask what condemnation there is from Muslims because they're too busy making the story suit their agenda. But we shouldn't let those people be examples of what actual Muslims feel.
In the end we have Westerners with agendas and reports of Muslim outrage at the West in other locations and that baggage gets brought into this situation. Terrorism is killing more Muslims than everyone else combined so to think that they aren't outraged out it doesn't make a lot of sense. And let's be real....if you want people who are more than happy to put Islam aside and blame the West we don't really have to look any further than liberals in our own societies. Don't confuse their views for the views of Muslims, especially since people from the West aren't really affected by terrorism to the same extent that Muslims are.
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Helter_Skelter
Yabits, what does Islamic terrorism in Uganda, or for that matter Chechnya, Uyghur, Thailand, etc. have to do with the West? This IS about Islam itself. Best deal with it.
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Nessie
They are fighting us over there so they don't have to fight us at home.
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nandakandamanda
They are fighting Hindus in India, Buddhist Thais in Thailand, Christian native Malays in Malaysia, Muslim Indonesians in Indonesia, Muslims in Pakistan, ethnic Han in China, and Christian Philippinos in the Philippines, etc.
None of those are your 'us', I believe.
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Madverts
"They are fighting us over there so they don't have to fight us at home."
Heh...... :-)
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MistWizard
Well, this thread is an excellent example of how to spin and intentionally misconstrue a person's words. I even had some words put in my mouth and I have no idea where they came from.
What I said was: At least someone with a suicide belt has the courage to die. You can't say the same for a guy opening the bomb bay doors.
Context people. Look it up. What I said was that a suicide bomber has a bit more courage than a bombadier up on high who will most likely kill more innocents but do it safely. But both are extreme cowards, its just that the suicide bomber has SLIGHTLY more courage. Does that make him "courageous"? Not REMOTELY. Just one part courage and 9 parts cowardice. The bombadier is 10 parts cowardice, but oh how quick many you would defend the bombadier whining that he could not know it would kill innocents! What crappola! I don't approve of the terrorists one bit, but at least they are not trying to claim they did not know exactly what they were doing!
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Madverts
"At least someone with a suicide belt has the courage to die. You can't say the same for a guy opening the bomb bay doors."
There is no context as this thread is about animals that have blown themselves up with the intent of blowing up as many innocent victims in the vicinity, in order to force them to adhere to their insane version of Islam. There is absolutely nothing courageous about this as some Ughandan official pointed out - they should go look for soldiers to fight if they're courageous, not poor sods having a beer watching the match.
Bringing up US foreign policy or the man who opens the bomb doors from 30,000 feet is just plain silly.
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SuperLib
Madverts sums it up well. The choice of the word "courageous" is inappropriate. If you're going to say that then I suppose a guy who robs a bank with just a pistol is more courageous than the police officer who has a pistol, body armor, backup, etc. It just sounds like an odd thing to say unless you simply hate police officers.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sure sounds like you're claiming that being an air force pilot and dropping bombs makes you an extreme coward. If that's the case then I suppose I'm just too brave to serve in combat.
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MistWizard
Duh! That is what I am telling you! I never used that word!
When you have zero chance of being shot down, YES! But even if so, he who kills civilians or so much as take the high chance he will IS A COWARD.
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MistWizard
Why are you talking about banks? These bombings happened out of doors and in a restaurant and no banks were robbed and no cops shot! You say there is no context, fine. You don't get any either.
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Madverts
"Why are you talking about banks?"
I didn't mention banks. You have no context.
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sailwind
You wish to take an Air Force pilot who has given his oath to protect his countryman from those that would them harm and brand him a coward.
Pathetic.
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yabits
But nevertheless said that Islam itself is part of the problem. I call that point of view "American (western) thinking" even though not everyone exhibiting it may be a US citizen, or even a westerner. Why? Because it employs a logic that is heavily influenced and promoted by Western corporate mass media. Beneath it lies the ultimate delusion: We're OK and they are not.
This is entirely foolish and wrong. The problem is cultural. Ironically, the solution to the cultural problem will be found through the influence of genuine Islam.
The delusion of a person of the region where Islam is prevalent into thinking they are righteous and non-Muslims are inherently evil is not different from the delusion of the westerner who thinks something must be inherently wrong with the tenets of the Islamic faith. Both, in fact, are being persuaded by an evil force that has nothing to do with genuine religion.
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jruaustralia
Indecent, cowardly acts. RIP
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yabits
If you are comparing the individual acts, then the former clearly indicates a nearly complete disregard for his own life. Most medals awarded for heroism cite that very disregard.
The Ugandans are involved in things in Somalia that these bombers clearly thought was worth fighting against and giving their lives for. I don't believe it had much if anything to do with the Ugandans not adhering to their version of Islam.
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SuperLib
American corporate mass media? What a bunch of self-righteous bullshit. That catchphrase is so overused it's officially tacky.
So you're saying that terrorism is caused by a problem in Arab culture? Wow....Arab culture bad, us good. Obviously you're heavily influenced by what I call the European (Western) corporate media machine. Note that I included "Western" in parenthesis there. I'd hate to be seen as having a bias.
Now you're mostly going into a scripted speech and ignoring what I've said. You're trying to paint me as some kind of "Me good, Islam bad" type of person that you most often spew your rhetoric at. What I said was perhaps there is something about the total commitment required from Islam that makes it easier to manipulate other people. Notice that I didn't say Islam was bad or the cause of terrorism. But perhaps it puts people into a state of mind where they can be lead down the wrong path by people who do not practice genuine Islam. I still squarely place the blame on terrorist trainers who brainwash people into believing that they are serving Islam when in fact they are not.
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Madverts
Medals for bravery are handed out in general for extreme bravery or selfless acts to save lives.
Unless you're trying to prove Superlib's point about the radical left using all available means to turn everything bad in the world as being the fault of the US, I suggest you whip out the dictionary and check out what heroism is all about.
Blowing us 64 people watching a football match, it is not.
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Madverts
Sorry save lives should have been in bold, as the terrorists are attempting the opposite.
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yabits
Using the terms "Arab" and "Islam" is painting with much too broad a brush. Typically American thinking, which conditions a population to accept killing many innocent non-combatants.
The cultures I am referring to are much smaller and tribal in nature. Practially every valley and hamlet in the nations of Afghanistan and Somalia have their own distinct sub-culture. And where certain localities feel they have been victimized and, like many deluded westerners, are looking for easy answers and easily-defined enemies, they become relatively easy to recruit to seek justice through violent retribution.
This is by no means unique to the people living in predominantly Islamic countries.
Violence is a cycle and, like the old saying goes, it takes two to tango -- as much as some people are almost desperately driven to isolate acts and remove from them any historical context.
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yabits
Yes, that's it:
Whenever you go out and kill people, you have to convince yourself that you are doing it for the greater good -- in order to save the lives of your friends and loved ones. Major cities filled with women and children have been obliterated on that rationale, with medals given to those who dropped the bombs.
What you are asserting is that if it can be found that the Somalis who launched this attack in Uganda were believing in their own heads that they were helping to save lives back home -- where Ugandans and others are involved in attacks on their families and loved ones -- then the bombings have some rational justification.
Underneath that is foundation where you keep repeating to yourself: "I am good; they are evil. I am right; they are wrong."
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yabits
This statement becomes easy fodder for those who do want to argue that Islam is the problem. Your initial statement made it clear that you felt that Islam was part of the problem based on a numbers game of who is committing the most senseless acts of violence this half-century. (It doesn't matter that members of most religions are, one place or another, it's who is currently at the top of the chart.)
And we are getting very close to showing how it is you who have painted yourself into your own corner:
If a person is easily influenced because of something due to culture or faith or whatever, the way to counteract that influence -- if it's one prone to support violence -- is to provide an example of a non-violent alternative. The West, with the U.S. leading the way with its massive arms spending and trading, and long history of support for violent, repressive, torturous regimes throughout the region, has been a major part of the problem for decades now.
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yabits
Saving lives through kllling others does not make the "terrorists" the opposite. They can only conduct "shock and awe" on a very limited "retail" level.
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MistWizard
Here is where they are going to start thinking we support terrorists yabits, so better explain. I think I speak for yabits when I say we DO NOT support terrorists the same as we DO NOT support wars such as that in Iraq and that in Afghanistan because they pretty much amount to the same thing. Yabits equates them because in the grand scheme of things, they are much much closer to eachother than some idea that they different. The ARE different, but not nearly different enough. Not twin brothers, but STILL brothers and peas in a pod. Yabits and I talk beaches. Meanwhile so many of you debate over grains of sand.
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samwatters
"This statement becomes easy fodder for those who do want to argue that Islam is the problem."
This is my last post for this thread as I am in danger of neglecting professional responsibilities due to my enjoyment of this board!
Islam IS part of the problem. There are moderate Muslims, there are radical Muslims but this is not an issue of individual people. ISLAM, the concept/religion, calls into follwers to die for Allah, requires women to be treated like chattel, and strives for the eradication of all non-believers. Whether or not people follow these edicts is not the issue; these edicts ARE PART OF ISLAM. Your (MistWizard, Yabits, in particular) views on U.S. policy, the courage of fighter pilots, etc. simply does not override the fact that violence is part of the core of ISLAM.
I must sign off. Thank you again---MistWizard and Yabits, too!---for the debate.
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SuperLib
Yeah, OK. I think I'm going to check out of the conversation as well. Have a good one.
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Madverts
Me too, check out time.
Heh, amazing.....truly amazing.
"Yabits: The West, with the U.S. leading the way with its massive arms spending and trading"
Yep that's what makes Islamists blow up 64 people for watching a football match.
Stroll on.....
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yabits
If those many could attempt to start connecting the grains, which they adamantly refuse to do, they would eventually come to see the beach.
But it's almost as if there's a vested interest for them to believe in lies -- that is, that there is no interconnection between the grains. There's no better description of delusion than taking the stand that nothing connects to anything else.
One of the key truths coming out of the Uganda bombing is how Afghanistan and Iraq are proving to be a more effective training ground for terrorists today than they ever were under the Taliban or Saddam Hussein. We've provided them with a much better environment in which to hone their skills - PLUS continue to provide tremendous incentive for their recruitment drives with every "mistake" that kills innocent civilians and every anti-Islam diatribe.
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Teachmeteachyou
The concept of identity taken to an extreme extent is the problem. Someone believes that they are a radical muslim and everyone else must pay the price. Right now, in the death throes of the movement, the radical Muslims are the greatest threat, wherever they are to be found. Other cultures have produced other dangers in their own way (witness wartime Japan), generally when their existence as separate, dominant entities is coming to a close.
I hope peaceful religions take the place of violent ones.
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yasukuni
I really hate people who blow up innocent people.
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WilliB
yasukuni:
But that is the issue. For the jihadis, we are not innocent. That is why radical islamists can confidently announce that islam does not allow the murder of innocents. You have to read the definitions to understand this.
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HonestDictator
Islam does not consider anyone to be "innocent" unless they are muslim. Yet at the same time these guys easily kill off other "innocent" muslims because they believe those muslims are not acting muslim enough by their own standards. No music, no smiling, no laughing, no dancing, no thinking, no looking at women, no respecting women, no dogs, no equal treatment of all others unless they're muslim (according to their standards). sigh
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